At what point is it elitism vs efficiency?

[Dante.1508]

12 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

You made the initial claim so it’s on you to back that up. 

Of course it is, nice diversion..

Grind in mmorpgs is a kin to grinding rocks in jail.. Thats how good it is.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Dante.1508

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Of course it is, nice diversion..

Grind in mmorpgs is a kin to grinding rocks in jail.. Thats how good it is.

You can easily do a google search and see that there are players that find grind fun. For them grind obviously isn’t bad therefore your assertion that it is universally bad is incorrect. 
 

When someone makes a claim, it’s expected that they back it up and not rely on others to prove them wrong. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

On 7/9/2022 at 4:48 PM, Dante.1508 said:

Its newer than GW2.. Drones like new games.

War Thunder released in 2012, Warframe released in 2013, Lost Ark came out in 2019. 
Lost Ark is much newer, but has WAY more players than GW2, even if we consider the increase in players during the release of EoD. Claiming people play grindy games because they are new while 2 of those games are rivaling GW2's age and the other is in its 3rd year doesn't help much. 

[tekmo.3076]

23 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

This sounds like pure fantasy to me.  If a commander wants specific classes to fill a role they will ask for them.  If they have other requirements (e.g. experienced, killproofs, titles, etc.) they will mention them to avoid wasting time on players who don't fit with what the group is trying to accomplish.  Outside of that nobody cares what build you're playing.  They care that you can perform the role you're filling adequately.

If you can't do that with your class of choice it isn't ANet's fault.  Either your commander is a rare unicorn with entirely unreasonable expectations or more likely if it's a regular occurrence for you, you're doing something wrong with your build or the way you play it.  That isn't ANet's fault unless you're blaming them for having a free-form build system that allows you to make poor choices (I guess it is their fault in that case, but this isn't FFXIV!).

My point is, where do you draw the line of asking players for too much?

Sometimes I feel like I’m going for a job interview the way some players will grill you when you want to join their group.
I get that a commander/squad leader needs to know you can perform your role adequately and it’s their group/squad so they can ask for whoever or whatever they want. I just think players shouldn’t need to fill an exact cookie-cut build/profession to get the job done.
Which I know for most endgame GW2 content is unfortunately the case.

[AliamRationem.5172]

39 minutes ago, tekmo.3076 said:

My point is, where do you draw the line of asking players for too much?

Sometimes I feel like I’m going for a job interview the way some players will grill you when you want to join their group.
I get that a commander/squad leader needs to know you can perform your role adequately and it’s their group/squad so they can ask for whoever or whatever they want. I just think players shouldn’t need to fill an exact cookie-cut build/profession to get the job done.
Which I know for most endgame GW2 content is unfortunately the case.

Like I said, that's pure fantasy.  Moving beyond the hypothetical "nightmare" scenario here.  You're telling me that it's normal for you to join a group and be asked for more than just the role you're fulfilling (i.e. alacrity, quickness, heals, DPS, or any combination of these)? 

I have literally never seen that.  Not once.  It's expected for the sake of making the commander's job easier that you state the role or roles you are willing to cover when you join a group.  If they don't specify a particular class (e.g. LF HB, HAM) and instead ask in general terms (e.g. lf alac, quick, heals) and post no requirements (e.g. DwD, exp) then it's generally understood that all they're asking is that you be able to perform adequately for your chosen role.  Most commanders who don't specify these things aren't expecting high-end performance out of their pickup group.

I don't see how that's "grilling you" or somehow similar to a job interview.  The commander is just trying to put together a group that is capable of clearing the content while acknowledging that he's working with pickups of varying skill.  In order to facilitate that, it makes sense to cover the bases of high-impact boons and healing for the group.

[Spucke.4163]

i had groups that wanted to kick me because i use cheaper food but i'm still top dps. they rushed in fights like stupid but did low dps and then calling me out to use the meta food. okay guys i leave you alone

i guess some peepz have different strats like precasting boons in 100 cm right  before the fight starts :D

 

the point is not everyone in this game seems to be intelligent or know how social interaction works. leave them alone and find a group that is suitable for yourself.

[Shikaru.7618]

16 hours ago, tekmo.3076 said:

My point is, where do you draw the line of asking players for too much?

Sometimes I feel like I’m going for a job interview the way some players will grill you when you want to join their group.
I get that a commander/squad leader needs to know you can perform your role adequately and it’s their group/squad so they can ask for whoever or whatever they want. I just think players shouldn’t need to fill an exact cookie-cut build/profession to get the job done.
Which I know for most endgame GW2 content is unfortunately the case.

It's never about the build but always about output. It's simply easier to talk about output when you have a build to reference. When people join my group as a dps, I expect them do damage. Idgaf if they're running shouts, traps, signets, whatever. As long as they output 20k+ and dont fail mechanics who cares. Same with supports. If they can heal, provide quick/alac and the other boons I know the class is capable of providing, I don't care what they run.

The problem is that the build system is so free-form, the average player will almost always get it wrong. I will have druids that can't seeker control properly because they didn't take entangle and verdant etchings, or a dps that brings no cc on samarog. At this point they are no longer meeting my output expectations and getting the job done hence the need to interview.

[Dante.1508]

18 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

War Thunder released in 2012, Warframe released in 2013, Lost Ark came out in 2019. 
Lost Ark is much newer, but has WAY more players than GW2, even if we consider the increase in players during the release of EoD. Claiming people play grindy games because they are new while 2 of those games are rivaling GW2's age and the other is in its 3rd year doesn't help much. 

I meant Lost Ark the other two aren't even worth mentioning they are so bad.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Dante.1508

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I meant Lost Ark the other two aren't even worth mentioning they are so bad.

Considering the other two still have a very high playerbase, which is either on par with GW2's or even bigger I wouldn't really say they are "bad", but, as it was said before, you can't tell others how to play and you can't tell others what games to play and enjoy. Them being successful is a proof that those kind of games are in fact successful.

[Shikaru.7618]

2 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Considering the other two still have a very high playerbase, which is either on par with GW2's or even bigger I wouldn't really say they are "bad", but, as it was said before, you can't tell others how to play and you can't tell others what games to play and enjoy. Them being successful is a proof that those kind of games are in fact successful.

Their definition of fun is the only acceptable one and any deviation is blasphemy and must be silenced by stoning.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 7/11/2022 at 12:21 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I have literally never seen that.  Not once.  It's expected for the sake of making the commander's job easier that you state the role or roles you are willing to cover when you join a group.  If they don't specify a particular class (e.g. LF HB, HAM) and instead ask in general terms (e.g. lf alac, quick, heals) and post no requirements (e.g. DwD, exp) then it's generally understood that all they're asking is that you be able to perform adequately for your chosen role.  Most commanders who don't specify these things aren't expecting high-end performance out of their pickup group.

You have just contradicted yourself here. Asking for a specific class to go with the boon is pretty much normal, and always has been. And even though nowadays the two key boons (quick and alac) have more options, commanders very frequently ask for specific classes to go with those - to a point where they usually ask anyone running said classes to go with a boon build (either dps or heal version), unless that is already covered.

While some commanders do indeed ask the more general "can anyone go quick/alac/heal?", it's far more usual for them to ask Fb if they can go quick/hfb, and engi if they can go alacdps/HAM. Just like before a first warrior in a group has always been asked to take banners.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[AliamRationem.5172]

13 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You have just contradicted yourself here. Asking for a specific class to go with the boon is pretty much normal, and always has been. And even though nowadays the two key boons (quick and alac) have more options, commanders very frequently ask for specific classes to go with those - to a point where they usually ask anyone running said classes to go with a boon build (either dps or heal version), unless that is already covered.

While some commanders do indeed ask the more general "can anyone go quick/alac/heal?", it's far more usual for them to ask Fb if they can go quick/hfb, and engi if they can go alacdps/HAM. Just like before a first warrior in a group has always been asked to take banners.

I don't see the contradiction unless asking for these things is somehow akin to a job interview?

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I don't see the contradiction unless asking for these things is somehow akin to a job interview?

You have said that "You're telling me that it's normal for you to join a group and be asked for more than just the role you're fulfilling (i.e. alacrity, quickness, heals, DPS, or any combination of these)?  I have never seen that." And then followed by an example of people doing exactly that. Asking for HAM of qFb is more than asking for a specific role. It's asking for a specific profession, espec and build.

And yes, it's extremely common to ask Fbs and Mechs that joined in for dps slots to go qFb/hfb or Alac/hmech. I see it all the time. It was extremely common to ask warriors to take banners (again, we're talking about warriors that joined as "hi, dps" obviously). And of course there was a time when any mesmer joining was practically guaranteed to be asked to go chrono. Regardless of whether they liked playing support or not. And for many classes it was often common to be asked to take specific weapons/additional roles on some bosses. Even if the original LFG did not specify anything of the sort.

[AliamRationem.5172]

15 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You have said that "You're telling me that it's normal for you to join a group and be asked for more than just the role you're fulfilling (i.e. alacrity, quickness, heals, DPS, or any combination of these)?  I have never seen that." And then followed by an example of people doing exactly that. Asking for HAM of qFb is more than asking for a specific role. It's asking for a specific profession, espec and build.

And yes, it's extremely common to ask Fbs and Mechs that joined in for dps slots to go qFb/hfb or Alac/hmech. I see it all the time. It was extremely common to ask warriors to take banners (again, we're talking about warriors that joined as "hi, dps" obviously). And of course there was a time when any mesmer joining was practically guaranteed to be asked to go chrono. Regardless of whether they liked playing support or not. And for many classes it was often common to be asked to take specific weapons/additional roles on some bosses. Even if the original LFG did not specify anything of the sort.

Okay. I stand corrected. What I meant is that none of this is like a job interview.  You just join for what they ask for. Simple.

[Voyant.1327]

On 7/3/2022 at 2:32 PM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

At what point does wanting an efficient team become a toxic elitist team? To me arc dps can be both a benefit and a curse. You can hone your skills and find better rotations to increase your dps, but then again you can be called out for not contributing enough which makes the game a chore

When its overkill and you're setting expectations beyond what's necessary. Prime example is how bad T4/T3 Fractals have been since this last patch. You don't need the quick/alac/etc. Basically a mini strike team.... Yet here we are with relatively easy content a lot of casuals avoid due to the player base. 

A quick google search of elitism and toxicity in gw2 you'll find a plethora of posts focused on these areas.

Everyone has a different experience but for such a casual game its crazy to me the endgame PvE community has such a bad rep. I constantly hear of people going to WvW/PvP to get away from it.

I genuinely feel its the biggest negative of the game...

Endgame players here are doing the same thing the Devs are doing wrong:

Placing Efficiency over Entertainment.

 

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

When its overkill and you're setting expectations beyond what's necessary. Prime example is how bad T4/T3 Fractals have been since this last patch. You don't need the quick/alac/etc. Basically a mini strike team.... Yet here we are with relatively easy content a lot of casuals avoid due to the player base. 

Create your own group. 

2 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

A quick google search of elitism and toxicity in gw2 you'll find a plethora of posts focused on these areas.

You’ll find this with any MMO. Those threads primarily have the same people complaining. 

2 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

Everyone has a different experience but for such a casual game its crazy to me the endgame PvE community has such a bad rep. I constantly hear of people going to WvW/PvP to get away from it.

It’s because of players who don’t like the requirements that others make for their own groups but refuse to create their own. They think come onto the forums and try to admonish those players for not playing the same way as them. 

2 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

I genuinely feel its the biggest negative of the game...

The most negative aspect is from those admonishing those who want to play their own way and create their own group specifically for it. 

2 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

Endgame players here are doing the same thing the Devs are doing wrong:

Placing Efficiency over Entertainment.

Who are you to say what is playing wrong?  

[Cuks.8241]

2 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

When its overkill and you're setting expectations beyond what's necessary.

Setting expectations for your own group is not elitist. Your group, your rules. You are not obligated to join their groups. You have the same means to form your own group as them. But it looks like you feel entitled to tell other players how they should play. Hmmm.

[Labjax.2465]

5 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Setting expectations for your own group is not elitist. Your group, your rules. You are not obligated to join their groups. You have the same means to form your own group as them. But it looks like you feel entitled to tell other players how they should play. Hmmm.

True, it's not elitist to set expectations for your own group. But it's still plenty open to criticism in other ways. For example, it can be argued that when a significant portion of the instanced PvE crowd for pugging is based around opaque terminology and stringent requirements, it's going to put off a lot of people who might otherwise readily participate in the content, which is overall damaging for the content getting more development resources put toward it. So even from a self-serving standpoint, it may be said PvEers shooting themselves in the foot in the long-term.

[Cuks.8241]

25 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

True, it's not elitist to set expectations for your own group. But it's still plenty open to criticism in other ways. For example, it can be argued that when a significant portion of the instanced PvE crowd for pugging is based around opaque terminology and stringent requirements, it's going to put off a lot of people who might otherwise readily participate in the content, which is overall damaging for the content getting more development resources put toward it. So even from a self-serving standpoint, it may be said PvEers shooting themselves in the foot in the long-term.

This same discussion has been going on for like 2 decades or even more. There is not a mmorpg out there that I've played without it. I doubt this actually impacts the amount of players that play such content.

You have players that play the game and try to overcome its obstacles and thus try to meet the game's and co-squad member requirements. And you have players that want the game to be changed for them and others to adapt to them. First bunch completes the content, second gets kicked and whines on forums how the game and players around them should change to suit them. 

I've been leading pug raids over 2 expansions in wow. 25 man ICC for example. I've set expectations, did a inspect, maybe a question on mechanics, maybe a dps check before the first boss fight and kicked people that didnt meet them on the spot. Could we do it with 2 players in subpar gear? probably. Could we do it with 3 players not meeting the benchmark. Most likely. Was I willing to risk it or to teach them? Maybe, depends on the day. But there were 9 or 24 other players with me. As a commander you're trying to ensure smooth run for all of them. I've also kicked great players that were trying to be elitist to other players, those can also disrupt the raid. 

I dont have much sympathy for players that try to enforce their rules to players that actually lead parties or squads. It can be quite busy to get together and lead a coherent squad that clears the content you're set to clear, possibly within a certain time frame without the special snowflakes that think they have the right to demand the whole squad to adapt to their whims.

And I dont really believe in the right for open criticism from anyone to anyone. I mean its a free speech in the end, do it if you like. But unless you're actually also their peer and have experience in the field , in this case actually lead a raid or at least know it to its bone, your opinion is irrelevant.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Cuks.8241

[Labjax.2465]

2 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

This same discussion has been going on for like 2 decades or even more. There is not a mmorpg out there that I've played without it. I doubt this actually impacts the amount of players that play such content.

You have players that play the game and try to overcome its obstacles and thus try to meet the game's and co-squad member requirements. And you have players that want the game to be changed for them and others to adapt to them. First bunch completes the content, second gets kicked and whines on forums how the game and players around them should change to suit them. 

I've been leading pug raids over 2 expansions in wow. 25 man ICC for example. I've set expectations, did a inspect, maybe a question on mechanics, maybe a dps check before the first boss fight and kicked people that didnt meet them on the spot. Could we do it with 2 players in subpar gear? probably. Could we do it with 3 players not meeting the benchmark. Most likely. Was I willing to risk it or to teach them? Maybe, depends on the day. But there were 9 or 24 other players with me. As a commander you're trying to ensure smooth run for all of them. I've also kicked great players that were trying to be elitist to other players, those can also disrupt the raid.

I dont have much sympathy for players that try to enforce their rules to players that actually lead parties or squads. It can be quite busy to get together and lead a coherent squad that clears the content you're set to clear, possibly within a certain time frame without the special snowflakes that think they have the right to demand the whole squad to adapt to their whims.

Nope. Look at most LFG listings in this game, some of it for content that is significantly easier than a raid. Still post after post of chicken scratch shorthand and role expectations in a game where roles aren't supposed to matter much.

I understand perfectly that some content in this game is more unforgiving and role requirements make sense sometimes. But defending the state of LFG in GW2 on the premise that there's "no mmorpg out there without [such issues]." It's just missing the point completely. Most MMOs have trinity system, so it's virtually impossible not to fill a particular role. You can be bad at the role, sure, but you're gonna have a hard time not filling one. That is those game's excuse for people being expected to fill particular roles. Something that is intuitive for them to do. It's counter-intuitive and a hot mess in this game. So people get picky to a degree that puts people off or makes it hard for them to participate even if they want to. It has nothing to do with leading raids in WoW.

[Linken.6345]

4 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Nope. Look at most LFG listings in this game, some of it for content that is significantly easier than a raid. Still post after post of chicken scratch shorthand and role expectations in a game where roles aren't supposed to matter much.

I understand perfectly that some content in this game is more unforgiving and role requirements make sense sometimes. But defending the state of LFG in GW2 on the premise that there's "no mmorpg out there without [such issues]." It's just missing the point completely. Most MMOs have trinity system, so it's virtually impossible not to fill a particular role. You can be bad at the role, sure, but you're gonna have a hard time not filling one. That is those game's excuse for people being expected to fill particular roles. Something that is intuitive for them to do. It's counter-intuitive and a hot mess in this game. So people get picky to a degree that puts people off or makes it hard for them to participate even if they want to. It has nothing to do with leading raids in WoW.

Even in trinity games if your bad at your role you get kicked out of the group.

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

Placing Efficiency over Entertainment.

Ah, yes. I forgot that it's not entertaining to anyone because you don't find it entertaining. Luckily "advertise your group" button in lfg works for you exactly the same way it works for anyone else.

 

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

True, it's not elitist to set expectations for your own group. But it's still plenty open to criticism in other ways. For example, it can be argued that when a significant portion of the instanced PvE crowd for pugging is based around opaque terminology and stringent requirements, it's going to put off a lot of people who might otherwise readily participate in the content, which is overall damaging for the content getting more development resources put toward it. So even from a self-serving standpoint, it may be said PvEers shooting themselves in the foot in the long-term.

What's damaging to this -actually not just this- content in regards to your take presented above is the fact that if people would have spent as much time ingame typing "everone welcome" in lfg window for those easier encounters as they are spending in threads like this one trying to enforce their way of playing on others, the lfg would be full of those squads and they wouldn't have anything to complain about.

But once again: it's not other players' responsibility to organize squads/content for you.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Nope. Look at most LFG listings in this game, some of it for content that is significantly easier than a raid. Still post after post of chicken scratch shorthand and role expectations in a game where roles aren't supposed to matter much.

I understand perfectly that some content in this game is more unforgiving and role requirements make sense sometimes. But defending the state of LFG in GW2 on the premise that there's "no mmorpg out there without [such issues]." It's just missing the point completely. Most MMOs have trinity system, so it's virtually impossible not to fill a particular role. You can be bad at the role, sure, but you're gonna have a hard time not filling one. That is those game's excuse for people being expected to fill particular roles. Something that is intuitive for them to do. It's counter-intuitive and a hot mess in this game. So people get picky to a degree that puts people off or makes it hard for them to participate even if they want to. It has nothing to do with leading raids in WoW.

You're blaming the players for that?  How about blaming ANet for creating such poor balance?  People ask for specific classes for support and healer (which are no different from traditional trinity role segregation, regardless of original design intent) because certain classes are simply much better and bring greater benefits to groups.  

Even if you aren't being picky for those privileged classes you still need to be specific.  You might start out asking for any old quickness, alacrity and healing, but if you get a healbrand you aren't also going to take HAM unless your hb can switch to cqb.

The players didn't create these problems.  ANet did.  We just work with what they give us.  

[Cuks.8241]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Nope. Look at most LFG listings in this game, some of it for content that is significantly easier than a raid. Still post after post of chicken scratch shorthand and role expectations in a game where roles aren't supposed to matter much.

I understand perfectly that some content in this game is more unforgiving and role requirements make sense sometimes. But defending the state of LFG in GW2 on the premise that there's "no mmorpg out there without [such issues]." It's just missing the point completely. Most MMOs have trinity system, so it's virtually impossible not to fill a particular role. You can be bad at the role, sure, but you're gonna have a hard time not filling one. That is those game's excuse for people being expected to fill particular roles. Something that is intuitive for them to do. It's counter-intuitive and a hot mess in this game. So people get picky to a degree that puts people off or makes it hard for them to participate even if they want to. It has nothing to do with leading raids in WoW.

If someone wants to do Asura with red pants only Shiverpeaks Strike with players that have 150 Sabetha KP its only their business and no one else's. Telling them what they should do is borderline harassment.

If players want to do content without any burden of requirements they are free to group up and play how they want. Whose fault is the presumably lack of low requirement groups? Players that want to play in such a way or players that dont want to play in such a way?

And that is assuming its hard to get into raid training or strike groups. By my experience its not. External community places not even needed. Anyone that is genuinely interested in such content will find a way quite easy.

Its the same thing as leading and joining raids in Wow, joining a good guild in Lineage 2 or any other mmorpg... There are always players that feel entitled to something while just plain not cutting it and then instead of making it happen, harassing other players over it while its none of their business at all. And dealing with such players is annoying for commander and anyone in squad in any game or environment. 

 

[Labjax.2465]

5 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You're blaming the players for that?  How about blaming ANet for creating such poor balance?  People ask for specific classes for support and healer (which are no different from traditional trinity role segregation, regardless of original design intent) because certain classes are simply much better and bring greater benefits to groups.  

Even if you aren't being picky for those privileged classes you still need to be specific.  You might start out asking for any old quickness, alacrity and healing, but if you get a healbrand you aren't also going to take HAM unless your hb can switch to cqb.

The players didn't create these problems.  ANet did.  We just work with what they give us.  

I will just say... some people say stuff like: "don't like how it is, make your own group." So why is it they get away with having that mentality, but it's strange for me to criticize how players act over design from the other end? "We just work with what they give us" in other words, could be said for players who disengage because of the state of LFG too. Seems kind of double standard the way this gets talked about.