Now who's gonna represent Warriors in the balance discord?

[Zekent.3652]

Now that Nike got kicked from the partner program for reasons that SHOULD means a kick for most of current partners. I'm starting to think that ANet has something against warriors, but unironically XD

Edited July 21, 2022 by Zizekent.2398

[Thaddeus The Blade.6472]

26 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Now that Nike got kicked from the partner program for reasons that SHOULD means a kick for most of current partners. I'm starting to think that ANet has something against warriors, but unironically XD

Great! An Anet-controlled echo chamber. Such is Discord! If Anet had any scruples they would discuss balance on a neutral public platform that they do not control, but we know that is not going to happen! Or better yet...here!!

Edited July 21, 2022 by JTGuevara.9018
add

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Great! An Anet-controlled echo chamber. Such is Discord! If Anet had any scruples they would discuss balance on a neutral public platform that they do not control, but we know that is not going to happen! Or better yet...here!!

Yeah, that definitely won't happen. They don't even engage us in such discussions in the platform where they hold all the power, the forums..

#IStandWithNike

[Thaddeus The Blade.6472]

14 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah, that definitely won't happen. They don't even engage us in such discussions in the platform where they hold all the power, the forums..

#IStandWithNike

That's because they know there is contention here. Plus, in the forums, you actually have to read and analyze information. It's not a constant feed of crap, like Reddit. People don't read much at all these days, they just rather get info regurgitated back to them passively through digital and social media.

[Gorem.8104]

2 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

That's because they know there is contention here. Plus, in the forums, you actually have to read and analyze information. It's not a constant feed of crap, like Reddit. People don't read much at all these days, they just rather get info regurgitated back to them passively through digital and social media.

 

While Anet farms upvotes over there and watches any criticism against their posts get downvoted into hidden. Can't do that over here, there's a lot less reddit herd mentality going on. 

So Warriors have no rep now in the only place that seems to matter, their echo chamber discord. Well, considering the state Warrior is in and has been in, I highly doubt Anet cared what the rep was saying most of the time anyway. 

[Obtena.7952]

Honestly, it doesn't appear to really matter in the first place. Anet aren't going to do anything they don't want in the first place, regardless of whatever player co-operatives they have setup to give feedback. Frankly, I think Anet isn't being very forthcoming with WHAT feedback they are actually listening to. It's just a very vague notion there that they ARE listening to ... SOMETHING. What that something is anyone's guess. 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[firedragon.8953]

The banner "rework" was a disaster.
The crit bonus decision showed complete lack of understanding about the class, and thankfully was "remedied," although it still doesn't quite make up for the changes.

If nike was in this Discord, I'm highly doubting that he recommended either of those changes. So it probably doesn't matter in that regard. 

I do hope devs read feedback here and then decide if those changes should be made. I'm skeptical considering the years of requests (complaints) warrior players have made that have not been acted on. I'm not a dev. though, so when I post my ideas, they are just that--ideas. Maybe throwing them into the void will inspire ideas within the dev. team, who knows...? To be fair, a lot of the recent polish (condensing currencies, adding LWS1, removing armor repairs, etc.) have been sticking points with new and veteran players for a long time and often requested. 

To be hired as a game dev should mean you have better understanding than the players (although if being honest, I'm not so sure that was the case here). I'm seeing what ArenaNet does in the August patch. Mistakes have been made, surely, but now we get to see if the studio is worth their salt (and our support) by owning up to them. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

22 minutes ago, firedragon.8953 said:

The banner "rework" was a disaster.
The crit bonus decision showed complete lack of understanding about the class, and thankfully was "remedied," although it still doesn't quite make up for the changes.

If nike was in this Discord, I'm highly doubting that he recommended either of those changes. So it probably doesn't matter in that regard. 

I do hope devs read feedback here and then decide if those changes should be made. I'm skeptical considering the years of requests (complaints) warrior players have made that have not been acted on. I'm not a dev. though, so when I post my ideas, they are just that--ideas. Maybe throwing them into the void will inspire ideas within the dev. team, who knows...? To be fair, a lot of the recent polish (condensing currencies, adding LWS1, removing armor repairs, etc.) have been sticking points with new and veteran players for a long time and often requested. 

To be hired as a game dev should mean you have better understanding than the players (although if being honest, I'm not so sure that was the case here). I'm seeing what ArenaNet does in the August patch. Mistakes have been made, surely, but now we get to see if the studio is worth their salt (and our support) by owning up to them. 

If the leaked log is to be believed they did not discuss the full details of the banner rework beyond that they said publicly. So, even then there was not enough discussion even when it mattered. In the warrior section of the leaked logs it is Nike talking into the void with no participation from Anet. Very obvious from the leaked chat logs that there was no real interaction unless someone was singing praises about BSW.

[Jzaku.9765]

Many of the players in that Discord are not partners. 

[Fueki.4753]

21 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

I'm starting to think that ANet has something against warriors, but unironically

The unjustified changes and continued disregard of Warrior have proven time and time again that they despise Warrior.

They already arrived at the point that they can't even make it more obvious anymore, unless they release a public admission of it being true.

I doubt there is any point in grasping at the flimsiest remnants of hope at this point.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Thaddeus The Blade.6472]

22 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

While Anet farms upvotes over there and watches any criticism against their posts get downvoted into hidden. Can't do that over here, there's a lot less reddit herd mentality going on. 

So Warriors have no rep now in the only place that seems to matter, their echo chamber discord. Well, considering the state Warrior is in and has been in, I highly doubt Anet cared what the rep was saying most of the time anyway. 

Yes, the hive mind is indeed real. Reddit is just a hive for the socially-backward, perma-virgin shills. End of. The Reddit shills aren't necessarily shills for the game itself but for their precious "content" creators. You dare attack any of their favorite "content" creators (Snowcrows, Discretize, etc) or god forbid, not recycle the talking points, you're going to get down-voted to oblivion.

And that brings me to Reddit itself. It's basically just facebook with different colors...a glorified marketing platform with walls upon walls of crap. The design just encourages spamming posts hoping they stick. Don't even get me started on karma...

 

You know, there's a reason Anet moved over to Reddit. It's because the forums got too hot for them.

[oscuro.9720]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The unjustified changes and continued disregard of Warrior have proven time and time again that they despise Warrior.

They already arrived at the point that they can't even make it more obvious anymore, unless they release a public admission of it being true.

I doubt there is any point in grasping at the flimsiest remnants of hope at this point.

I think Hanlon’s Razor is very applicable in this case; “Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence”. 
 

Warrior is a class that’s much more difficult to balance because of its mechanics, stat base, and simplicity. It’s very easy for it to tip from underpowered to OP very quickly. It may not seem that way to the people who have a few thousand hours on warrior, but that’s not the people doing the class balance. 

 

Now, it’s fair to say that they aren’t listening to the people who have good ideas for warrior on the forum, but again, I want to reiterate that the forums are not exactly an easy place to filter through. It can be extremely toxic and salty, which isn’t conducive of finding the good discussions of balance (granted their preferred platform of Reddit is worse, but that’s a whole different discussion that I think should be avoided on this forum). It also isn’t good at developing any form of consensus in a concise and digestible way. We have the Omnibus, but I cannot fault Anet for seeing >a dozen pages of non-rank ordered desires with further debate in the comments, no matter how civil and well intentioned. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by oscuro.9720
My phone really hates the word Hanlon

[Thaddeus The Blade.6472]

22 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I think Hanlon’s Razor is very applicable in this case; “Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence”. 
 

Warrior is a class that’s much more difficult to balance because of its mechanics, stat base, and simplicity. It’s very easy for it to tip from underpowered to OP very quickly. It may not seem that way to the people who have a few thousand hours on warrior, but that’s not the people doing the class balance. 

 

Now, it’s fair to say that they aren’t listening to the people who have good ideas for warrior on the forum, but again, I want to reiterate that the forums are not exactly an easy place to filter through. It can be extremely toxic and salty, which isn’t conducive of finding the good discussions of balance (granted their preferred platform of Reddit is worse, but that’s a whole different discussion that I think should be avoided on this forum). It also isn’t good at developing any form of consensus in a concise and digestible way. We have the Omnibus, but I cannot fault Anet for seeing >a dozen pages of non-rank ordered desires with further debate in the comments, no matter how civil and well intentioned. 

If a class is difficult to balance, then that means it's either badly designed or outdated and needs to be reworked. And, I'm sorry, but no. The format of public discussion regarding the game should not be avoided! It should be analyzed. The difference between the forums and Reddit is that in the forums you have to read, that takes time. People are either lazy or don't have the time. In Reddit, it's basically just Twitter without the character limits. It's quick. However, there's a price. Faster communication is not automatically better! It's called, "whoever shouts the fastest and loudest wins!" There's no time to check facts because people just keep spamming the post. It's pretty much baked into the platform.

 

[Fueki.4753]

47 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I think Hanlon’s Razor is very applicable in this case; “Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence”.

Incompetence includes doing something and failing. There have been numerous of threads the propose improvements. If they couldn't think of anything themselves, they could at least tried to use some of the ideas. Yet they simply weren't willing to at least experiment with things.

But they have done next to nothing to Warrior, so we can safely exclude incompetence. And what little has been done was so obviously wrong, it can't realistically be described as mere trying and failing.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[oscuro.9720]

On 7/22/2022 at 1:07 PM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

If a class is difficult to balance, then that means it's either badly designed or outdated and needs to be reworked. And, I'm sorry, but no. The format of public discussion regarding the game should not be avoided! It should be analyzed. The difference between the forums and Reddit is that in the forums you have to read, that takes time. People are either lazy or don't have the time. In Reddit, it's basically just Twitter without the character limits. It's quick. However, there's a price. Faster communication is not automatically better! It's called, "whoever shouts the fastest and loudest wins!" There's no time to check facts because people just keep spamming the post. It's pretty much baked into the platform.

 

Yes, Reddit is not a good place for identifying good ideas, just popular ideas. The two seldom overlap. I absolutely agree. I just prefer not to get into that conversation, as it’s baked into the platform, so any subreddit of sufficient size will enter a spiral of devolution to conformity with voice of the most influential person. I say I can’t fault them for not going through the forums, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think they should. 
 

As for a class being tricky to balance being badly designed or outdated is pretty wrong. Warrior is extremely well designed, placing high weight in the timing and proper usage of skills and core gameplay. Other classes heavily rely on set combinations of skill usage in combat, which I would argue is a more base style of play that artificially creates complexity by adding more buttons but dumbs down combat to a degree, reducing the value of core gameplay mechanics. Warrior is not poorly designed, and does not need a ground-up rework, it just needs more time focused on its balance without being driven into the same glut of mechanics that other classes are in. 

On 7/22/2022 at 1:15 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

At this point, we can safely exclude incompetence.

There have been numerous of threads the propose improvements. If they couldn't think of anything themselves, they could at least tried to use some of the ideas. Yet they simply weren't willing to at least experiment with things. And they know these ideas exist. After all, they use ideas from the Warrior forums to find improvements for other professions.

I mean, you can view it how you wish. I don’t think too much good will come of that view and am not convinced it is true, but you do you my man 🙂 

Edited July 25, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[eXruina.4956]

honestly, i do have to say, its anets prerogative, if its not in their best interest to have nike as an anet partner i believe its their call.

 

i believe that its anet who should be on the driver's seat when it comes down to game direction, decisions and design, its their game and the professional skill of those involved. but in saying this i also believe that results do matter and we are still the end user and target market.

 

its just that balance has been 💩, they're doing a lot of other things right, we've come a long way since 2012 in everything except balance and competitive modes, its up to them to identify what's not working out, fix it, and make things better.

 

[Thaddeus The Blade.6472]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Yes, Reddit is not a good place for identifying good ideas, just popular ideas. The two seldom overlap. I absolutely agree. I just prefer not to get into that conversation, as it’s baked into the platform, so any subreddit of sufficient size will enter a spiral of devolution to conformity to the voice of the most influential person. I say I can’t fault them for not going through the forums, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think they should.
 

True. Excellent points. Yeah, Reddit is like that. Doesn't even matter the topic.

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

As for a class being tricky to balance being badly designed or outdated is pretty wrong. Warrior is extremely well designed, placing high weight in the timing and proper usage of skills and core gameplay. Other classes heavily rely on set combinations of skill usage in combat, which I would argue is a more base style of play that artificially creates complexity by adding more buttons but dumbs down combat to a degree, reducing the value of core gameplay mechanics. Warrior is not poorly designed, and does not need a ground-up rework, it just needs more time focused on its balance without being driven into the same glut of mechanics that other classes are in. 

Good point. It is well-designed with respect to its time. I take back that previous statement of mine then. What it is though, is outdated in relation to the current stuff, especially the "holy trinity" (guard, necro, engi). I find it doubtful that most can dispute this! Timing and proper usage is skills is simply NOT rewarded or that relevant in this current powercreeped environment. Especially now with specializations that are currently designed with ease-of-play in mind and what I call "Houdini" buttons to get you out of a jam. Out of this situation with warrior, it can conclude into either:

1. Rework the game play philosophy and combat system to something, for example gw1, where proper skill usage matters (too late for that in a 10-year old game)

2. Rework warrior skills, weapons and traits to function in this current environment. (the more likely scenario)

 

[oscuro.9720]

24 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

True. Excellent points. Yeah, Reddit is like that. Doesn't even matter the topic.

Good point. It is well-designed with respect to its time. I take back that previous statement of mine then. What it is though, is outdated in relation to the current stuff, especially the "holy trinity" (guard, necro, engi). I find it doubtful that most can dispute this! Timing and proper usage is skills is simply NOT rewarded or that relevant in this current powercreeped environment. Especially now with specializations that are currently designed with ease-of-play in mind and what I call "Houdini" buttons to get you out of a jam. Out of this situation with warrior, it can conclude into either:

1. Rework the game play philosophy and combat system to something, for example gw1, where proper skill usage matters (too late for that in a 10-year old game)

2. Rework warrior skills, weapons and traits to function in this current environment. (the more likely scenario)

 

I can agree with that for sure. Warrior certainly has very outdated aspects. In fact, it’s only viable spec in competitive (blade) mimics the other specs that have been good in the past 3 years by being a spam based snooze fest. 
 

As for the ways to fix it, I’d like to cling to the hope that there’s a way to properly rework the outdated aspects of warrior while maintaining the core gameplay style and not shifting into the spammy nonsense the other classes rely on. It may be naive, but I’m going to bet on it anyways :) 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

#GW2EXODUS Club anyone? 🤓🤓🤓

[Dante.1508]

On 7/22/2022 at 3:21 AM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Great! An Anet-controlled echo chamber. Such is Discord! If Anet had any scruples they would discuss balance on a neutral public platform that they do not control, but we know that is not going to happen! Or better yet...here!!

Everything Anet is echo chamber controlled..

[Mungrul.9358]

On 7/21/2022 at 6:27 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah, that definitely won't happen. They don't even engage us in such discussions in the platform where they hold all the power, the forums..

#IStandWithNike

I've been a long-standing member of Quake3World for over 22 years now, and during the game's hay-day, the devs at id Software made daily posts on the forum, engaging with the community.

Jennell Jacquays in particular contributed massively to level design discussions.

The end result?

Numerous game companies were either founded on the forums from members, or found employees there.

The initial Infinity Ward team had quite a few Q3W members (and the CoD engine was based on Quake 3 / idTech 3).

 

Kitten, Carmack posted on Q3W every so often.

Even CliffyB would stop by to lightheartedly troll the "opposition" (Q3 vs. UT was almost as big as Mario vs. Sonic).

 

I've never understood ANet's approach to their forums. They don't engage here, instead choosing to utilise Reddit or Twitter.

If they do post, it's never a discussion; it's one-post-then-gone.

If they do take suggestions from the community, they never give credit.

[Jzaku.9765]

On 7/22/2022 at 1:27 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah, that definitely won't happen. They don't even engage us in such discussions in the platform where they hold all the power, the forums..

#IStandWithNike

It would be absolutely ludicrous for anyone to believe Nike was removed from the partner program because they played Warrior. I would advise doing ANY level of CURSORY research before posting drivel like that.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

50 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

It would be absolutely ludicrous for anyone to believe Nike was removed from the partner program because they played Warrior. I would advise doing ANY level of CURSORY research before posting drivel like that.

What you quoted and what you said in response to what you quoted have no correlation to each other.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

3 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I've been a long-standing member of Quake3World for over 22 years now, and during the game's hay-day, the devs at id Software made daily posts on the forum, engaging with the community.

Jennell Jacquays in particular contributed massively to level design discussions.

The end result?

Numerous game companies were either founded on the forums from members, or found employees there.

The initial Infinity Ward team had quite a few Q3W members (and the CoD engine was based on Quake 3 / idTech 3).

 

Kitten, Carmack posted on Q3W every so often.

Even CliffyB would stop by to lightheartedly troll the "opposition" (Q3 vs. UT was almost as big as Mario vs. Sonic).

 

I've never understood ANet's approach to their forums. They don't engage here, instead choosing to utilise Reddit or Twitter.

If they do post, it's never a discussion; it's one-post-then-gone.

If they do take suggestions from the community, they never give credit.

Well, when players say the air it stale in the room, Anet smashes the window in with a Hammer instead of opening it. 

And then they wonder why they get so much hate here. 

 

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

23 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Well, when players say the air it stale in the room, Anet smashes the window in with a Hammer instead of opening it. 

And then they wonder why they get so much hate here. 

 

 

 

I know for a fact that it can't be a hammer as it would only do 13 damage.