I don't think this patch will change much.

[Opopanax.1803]

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A GOOD STEP BY ANET.  THE BEST THING IS THEIR APOLOGY AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AT THE START!

The boons/effect on drop, and the pulsing effects... this is definately the right direction.  Who know if it will be enough yet, but several of these are things that I will certains use and will compete with some of the utilities that I have been using.

 

Thank you for listening and course correcting.  This is much, much better!

[Opopanax.1803]

11 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

This is like the first time in 10 years Core Warrior has gotten any amount of buffs to it's design to keep up with the rest of the game. Regardless of how good quickness-dps Warrior turns out, the fact that Core Warrior now has access to low CD, low opportunity cost, teamwide Stab and Aegis is massive. Only 2 other classes can do this via simply trading out their utility skill like Warrior now can. 

And I would just shelve Heal Warrior untill Warrior finally gets a dedicated support Elite Spec - It would be really stupid for Core Warrior to be able to compete with Elite Specs entirely dedicated to the role. Presumably this is why the Banners still don't give Prot - so there's design space for the next Warrior Elite Spec to fill.

No Prot on these because they are saving that for the DEFENSE TRAIT LINER REWORK... (I hope)!

[XenMaster.7165]

Cant they make Warrior be a god dps class than a buffer? Like its "warrior"

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

33 minutes ago, XenMaster.7165 said:

Cant they make Warrior be a god dps class than a buffer? Like its "warrior"

This game doesn't work that way. Because you need to be able to fill any role in a party with a change of build, each class needs to be able to bring something otherwise they're just excluded.

 

For example, currently if a group only needs healing, Alacrity or Quickness you're not able to join as a Warrior. You can only join if they're listed as needing a DPS, which makes it alot harder to find groups since DPS is the most common role and the quickest and easiest to fill.

 

That's why they're trying to make every class viable in multiple roles. It gets alot of complaints from the playerbase, but most of those are players who have never had to be "that guy" who gets excluded based soley on their class. Warrior was guarnateed a slot in all parties due to banners, but this was a tunnel-vision misstep, they should've been guaranteed a slot in parties based on multiple aspects of their class instead.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[XenMaster.7165]

6 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

This game doesn't work that way. Because you need to be able to fill any role in a party with a change of build, each class needs to be able to bring something otherwise they're just excluded.

 

For example, currently if a group only needs healing, Alacrity or Quickness you're not able to join as a Warrior. You can only join if they're listed as needing a DPS, which makes it alot harder to find groups since DPS is the most common role and the quickest and easiest to fill.

 

That's why they're trying to make every class viable in multiple roles. It gets alot of complaints from the playerbase, but most of those are players who have never had to be "that guy" who gets excluded based soley on their class. Warrior was guarnateed a slot in all parties due to banners, but this was a tunnel-vision misstep, they should've been guaranteed a slot in parties based on multiple aspects of their class instead.

Hmm. I guess we need something to rebalance boon buffers then. There was one mmo called dragon nest where, devs were having problem where some support buff class outshined by other class. So the only thing they did was to give every support buff class the same duration, buff options and healing.

 

Every support has 30% max heal and if one support use their heal ability, others support get cooldown timer for balance ofc (since that mmo heal all the group).

 

Even the boon-like ability has same duration and will refresh other boons.

 

But one can hope

[xellink.7568]

10 hours ago, Opopanax.1803 said:

No Prot on these because they are saving that for the DEFENSE TRAIT LINER REWORK... (I hope)!

 

Mainhand Shield Warrior Specialisation.

[Naxx.6203]

14 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Also, while in the context of the current meta, these changes to banners might be considered "good", I'm alarmed there's no mention of changes to what happens when you pick up a banner. Are we still going to see blank skill bars? Will picking them up have an effect on their cooldowns?

There won't be banner picking anymore. It's all written in their balance notes.

[Sobx.1758]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:43 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I'm not a doomer. I'm a realist. 😉

And the truth is that I does not matter how much you change, buff and tweak things as long it's not even near the power level of Firebrand and friends. 

Address the Elefant in the room. Not the broken vase it caused. 

 

If your whole point/opinion in this thread is based on the fact that other specs need to be nerfed then why is this even in a warrior subforum, posing as a comment about the warrior change, when in reality it's a complaint about some overperforming specs/builds? 😄  

On 7/28/2022 at 11:54 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

But here's the question. 

Even if you could. Why would your group agree to let you play that roll if there is a far superior version of you?

A superior version that will always be in high demand AND supply. 

Because plenty of groups look for certain utilities and not specific specs/builds.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

On 7/28/2022 at 4:11 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

People being distracted by shinies here ... if banners are not AT LEAST as good as the old versions of banners in making warriors attractive for a team ... Anet FAILED in their goal of integrating warriors into the quickness role. 

What even is this take supposed to be? Banners were a strong squad-wide unique buff nobody else could provide, which is the only reason they had reserved spot in the group. Removal of unique buffs obviously takes away that spot, while adding quickness allows it to now fill both "dps" and "supportive" (quickness provider) roles. Something apparently some warriors wanted while not being bound to banners any time they were the only warrior in the group. I fail to see how "not having reserved spot like pre-redisign banners" is somehow supposed to be a failure or going against some goal that was pretty clearly never the goal here in the first place.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Gorem.8104]

On 7/29/2022 at 11:06 AM, Opopanax.1803 said:

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A GOOD STEP BY ANET.  THE BEST THING IS THEIR APOLOGY AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AT THE START!

The boons/effect on drop, and the pulsing effects... this is definately the right direction.  Who know if it will be enough yet, but several of these are things that I will certains use and will compete with some of the utilities that I have been using.

 

Thank you for listening and course correcting.  This is much, much better!

 

How though? The thing is, Warriors before June 28th - Taken because of banner support and doing ok dps.

Warriors after the banner change in June 28th - not taken because they now offer nothing and do less dps. 

Warriors after the banner change again on Tuesday - not taken because they now offer something but that something is still worse then other classes offers that can offer more while doing more dps. 

Qharb, offers 100% quickness uptime with no investment. QWarrior... how much investment into boon duration including banner slots will be taken up instead of dps utilities? When we find out the numbers, which we already know will be too low, Nothing will change with this update. 

For years they have given Warrior nothing besides making things worse, why should we expect anything different? 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[eXruina.4956]

precisely its like thanking them for addressing problems for warrior they themselves created.

 

they haven't even began to address the problems with warrior that have piled up and neglected over the years.

[Opopanax.1803]

18 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

precisely its like thanking them for addressing problems for warrior they themselves created.

 

they haven't even began to address the problems with warrior that have piled up and neglected over the years.

Unlike old banners that were fire and forget, these banners actually matter for the initial drop down boost they give, thinking of the aegis one in particular.

Do I think this makes Warrior support OK now?  NO.  But it is the right step towards and actual support Warrior build.... which the old banners never was: it was dps with utilites that gave support.

[Gorem.8104]

33 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

precisely its like thanking them for addressing problems for warrior they themselves created.

 

they haven't even began to address the problems with warrior that have piled up and neglected over the years.

Exactly, why are we thanking them for a wound that they inflicted and have only half healed? 
They stab us, then put a band-aid on it that only goes half way. 

Its not like Warrior was meta before this stabbing in any way. In pve there was always only one reason alone as to why Warriors were taken, and Anet entirely removed that one reason. As it stands, there is now no reason for Warrior to exist in the game. You could remove Warrior and all that would happen would be players going to classes that can actually contribute while being able to dps better and easier. The only other class like this is Ele, which has been irrelevant in pve content for years, even when they finally have a niche, Anet nerfs them. 

We need trait line re-designs and faster weapon swapping to be base line, we need huge buffs to the playstyle of Warrior, not just number tweaks. Make Warrior fun to play again. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[eXruina.4956]

3 minutes ago, Opopanax.1803 said:

Unlike old banners that were fire and forget, these banners actually matter for the initial drop down boost they give, thinking of the aegis one in particular.

Do I think this makes Warrior support OK now?  NO.  But it is the right step towards and actual support Warrior build.... which the old banners never was: it was dps with utilites that gave support.

i think you're missing the point entirely.

 

the banner problem was a problem they created, the aug 2 change is a good change yes, for the bad change they did on jan 28 and only because people were upset and things have boiled over and how absurdly stupid the jan 28 changes were.

 

also warrior has many problems outside of banners which have gone unaddressed for years, some of which were also caused by them, while others from being outdated and neglected. where are the changes to those?

 

you wan't to be thankful, thats on you. but you can't seriously be asking other people to be thankful for that. its like a slap to the face.

[Opopanax.1803]

4 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

i think you're missing the point entirely.

 

the banner problem was a problem they created, the aug 2 change is a good change yes, for the bad change they did on jan 28 and only because people were upset and things have boiled over and how absurdly stupid the jan 28 changes were.

 

also warrior has many problems outside of banners which have gone unaddressed for years, some of which were also caused by them, while others from being outdated and neglected. where are the changes to those?

 

you wan't to be thankful, thats on you. but you can't seriously be asking other people to be thankful for that. its like a slap to the face.

Disagree, I still think this move is better than the old banners.  If you want to live in that old meta feel free, not me!

[eXruina.4956]

1 hour ago, Opopanax.1803 said:

Disagree, I still think this move is better than the old banners.  If you want to live in that old meta feel free, not me!

hahahaha.. old meta? it will still be a firebrand for quickness meta even after the changes, nobody is going to prefer warriors for quickness over firebrand except in easy content, who are you kidding, the gap will still be wide af. 🤣

 

and why are you deliberately avoiding all the other problems plaguing warrior for years and so focused on banners? curious. 🤔 you thankful for those too? 😜

Edited July 30, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[Logos.3042]

9 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

hahahaha.. old meta? it will still be a firebrand for quickness meta even after the changes, nobody is going to prefer warriors for quickness over firebrand except in easy content, who are you kidding, the gap will still be wide af. 🤣

 

and why are you deliberately avoiding all the other problems plaguing warrior for years and so focused on banners? curious. 🤔 you thankful for those too? 😜

I think their point was that if you go back to that old banner, there is no chance of Warrior ever having Banners that are more than a stat stick, and all warrior builds ever filling most of their utility slots with them.  This will at least push a re-look.  Old banners always did enough to not warrant any look.  This will now force the issue to further steps.  

 

[eXruina.4956]

1 hour ago, Logos.3042 said:

I think their point was that if you go back to that old banner, there is no chance of Warrior ever having Banners that are more than a stat stick, and all warrior builds ever filling most of their utility slots with them.  This will at least push a re-look.  Old banners always did enough to not warrant any look.  This will now force the issue to further steps.  

 

that's not really the real reason why they haven't addressed any of the problems warrior had or many of warriors problems that were neglected. not really, they're just excuses and i'm not just saying in pve. but warrior in general in all game modes.

 

the reason why none of warrior's problems ever got addressed over the years was because they simply weren't addressing them and its spanned years, this isn't just some recent event, they broke many things through indirect nerfs and neglect, and favored other classes in balance to literally be able to output everything without any balance limitations or restrictions.

 

people were always suspicious of this, but it was recently evidently confirmed. THAT RIGHT THERE WAS NEVER ADDRESSED. although i don't expect them to address it. i do expect them to make it right, which to this day, they haven't, so *shrugs.

 

in regards to banners, i agree with the point that at the least they changed warrior's status quo, but they did not make warrior any more relevant or better, in fact they made warrior less relevant because we now have to compete for something firebrand can do better and easier while providing literally every other utility.

 

that's not something to be thankful for.

Edited July 31, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[eXruina.4956]

also take note, june 28 was supposed to be a major balance patch, we wait for these changes in the span of months, sometimes years, because despite all that time many major issues and problems are never worked on or addressed.

 

over the years, the balance team has not only had very little productivity but has failed to address multiple existing balance problems.

 

and that's not considering the leaks and what came to light about how the balance team went about their work.

 

but like i said. for them to introduce a problem of their own making and fix it after 2 months but maybe not even pushing out something to be competitive or relevant enough of a change that will put warrior on the map. that's not something to be thankful for.

[eXruina.4956]

heck some are even pointing out that number tweaks are easy and as long as things are well designed, the balance team can be expected to fix things by simply changing the numbers.

 

YET. the feb 2020 balance patch that destroyed warrior in competitive modes. that was all just number changes. its now the later half of 2022. none of it was ever addressed.

 

that's discounting things they broke as collateral damage over the years, animation speeds, coefficients, entire mechanics etc.. all simple to implement number changes.

 

credit where credit is due.

Edited July 31, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[JTGuevara.9018]

45 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

that's not really the real reason why they haven't addressed any of the problems warrior had or many of warriors problems that were neglected. not really, they're just excuses and i'm not just saying in pve. but warrior in general in all game modes.

 

the reason why none of warrior's problems ever got addressed over the years was because they simply weren't addressing them and its spanned years, this isn't just some recent event, they broke many things through indirect nerfs and neglect, and favored other classes in balance to literally be able to output everything without any balance limitations or restrictions.

 

people were always suspicious of this, but it was recently evidently confirmed. THAT RIGHT THERE WAS NEVER ADDRESSED. although i don't expect them to address it.

 

in regards to banners, i agree with the point that at the least they changed warrior's status quo, but they did not make warrior any more relevant or better, in fact they made warrior less relevant because we now have to compete for something firebrand can do better and easier while providing literally every other utility.

 

that's not something to be thankful for.

Yup. That's right. People should not settle for this banner change alone. It's but a start.

At the very least, I don't have to carry these things. I can take these banners on the utility bar and not feel like a total fool. Though yes, Anet broke these banners in the first place! They deserve NO further praise.

People should not be collectively shilling for this. I'm actually glad there is still some push-back on here. No...demand better. Let's not lower the bar. Demand better out of a "balance" team that has no clue what they're doing and are pretty much just winging it.

[ThunderX.6591]

Like i sayd in other posts, they changed banner a bit in a positive way with the extra skill at first placement/activation (even though they destroyed them the patch before) but at the same time, they worsened them on the boons pulse side changing the radius (from 600 to 360 without possibility to change the position after you place them), reduces duration of the banner (from 60 secs duration and 60 sec cooldown (1:1) to 15 secs duration and 30 secs cooldown (1:2), massacred the Elite banner that is now a lot worse cause cooldown stay at 120 secs but duration appear to be 15 sec instead of 60 and "immovable banner ground position placement" that return.

If they mantain the 1:1 ratio for duration and cooldown (30 secs duration, 30 secs cooldown) and the radius the same or at least around 450-500, things could have been a lot better for the banner rework, instead of what we get now. (good start but totally not enough for what we lost)

I mean, they could have simple give us a skill like "shout" with the starter effect as what banner will get and pulse boons every 3 seconds for like 20 seconds (30 secs cooldown) and we would be in a better position of what we will get now. (i sugested similar change in the august 2 post)

[Karagee.6830]

On 7/28/2022 at 3:21 PM, Nawrotex.9521 said:

Of course it will be worse than Firebrand. Anything can't compete currently with FB/HaM for meta spot. Why? Because their core design is just too bloated with useful stuff compared to others. It's a problem with them being too strong and not others being too weak. There is healDruid, healTempest, qScrapper, qHarb, healHerald, qHerald and all of these builds can't really keep up with FB/qFB/HaM even tho they still all are very good, viable builds which are still played in various places and will get job done.  

It all comes to giving warrior good and viable boon support/dps build and these changes on paper looks like they could allow it. It won't outclass the FB or qFB but certainly could place it as considerable option for those who feel like playing it. 

But still, I don't expect you to get it. Fact that experienced people from SC are able to notice the possibilities of these changes and some dummy from forums is just too fixated on his beliefs, truly says it all.

Let me just say that on SC's discord you can also find plenty of people who are not as smart or knowledgeable as you seem to think they all are, by virtue of being there. And I will stop here, before the usual weird mod targets me again for the most creative reasons without suffering any consequence.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

On 7/29/2022 at 3:06 AM, Opopanax.1803 said:

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A GOOD STEP BY ANET.  THE BEST THING IS THEIR APOLOGY AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AT THE START!

Did grouch or solar dm you? I could care less for the half assed underhanded unapologetic 'apology' by this Ruby person. 

We need the people responsible for the repeated blunders to either apologise publicly or to be addressed internally by Anet, which should then tell us which decisions were taken (e.g. solar is no longer working on balance and is now the printer/coffee boy and we have created the position of president of operations grouch will report to and will have to get written approval from, before making any decision with an inpact on the game).

Anything is better than the kitten grouch and solar produced in 5 months of work. When you start from a negative value even numbers like 0 or 1 will seem like an improvement. Because they are. The problem is context is also relevant and other classes are running at much higher values.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Gorem.8104]

19 hours ago, eXruina.4956 said:

also take note, june 28 was supposed to be a major balance patch, we wait for these changes in the span of months, sometimes years, because despite all that time many major issues and problems are never worked on or addressed.

 

over the years, the balance team has not only had very little productivity but has failed to address multiple existing balance problems.

 

and that's not considering the leaks and what came to light about how the balance team went about their work.

 

but like i said. for them to introduce a problem of their own making and fix it after 2 months but maybe not even pushing out something to be competitive or relevant enough of a change that will put warrior on the map. that's not something to be thankful for.

Exactly this though, June 28 was supposed to be this huge patch that had months of work that was going to fix all the issues the new elites had that was based on feedback the players gave over the months of beta and live play while also seeing to all outdated weapons (not just a handful) and changing 300 ICD traits and everything. 

Instead we got nerfs to weak classes and buffs to strong classes and so few of them. And its revealed about the devs heavy bias and why they have no reason to ever be on any balance team for any game. 

Its like they can what, get away with nerfing Warrior massively, slightly revert the nerf and we supposed to praise them? We were expecting huge changes, and instead all they did was throw Bladesworn some buffs cause they need to sell EoD to Warriors. Banners are still not going to be as good as they should be unless the numbers are tuned high which we know they won't be. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Gorem.8104