Rifle Mech is now 28k DPS with 0 input from the player.

[FoodFest.2061]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You answered your question here: You don't know how it's defended? Because MOST people aren't going to choose a spec that is boring for them to play.

People should always choose to play what they want to play but in the case of the mechanist, people also choose it because it's what they can play. 

it's boring to me , and i play it cause i like efficiency and i am not the only one trust me , you are not alone in the world. People play what they want , and a lot play not what is fun , but what is efficient , because being inefficient isnt fun , so hello team 2 firebrands and 8 mechs , class diversity , "play how you want , quote anet 2014" well yeah , play mech or be useless .

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, FoodFest.2061 said:

it's boring to me , and i play it cause i like efficiency and i am not the only one trust me , you are not alone in the world. People play what they want , and a lot play not what is fun , but what is efficient , because being inefficient isnt fun , so hello team 2 firebrands and 8 mechs , class diversity , "play how you want , quote anet 2014" well yeah , play mech or be useless .

Well, that's your choice right ... you choose to play a boring build because it's efficient. If you are doing that, obviously fun isn't part of your criteria for making choices to play the game. That's hardly something you can complain about ... or if you do, the solution is on you to fix it. 

I mean, you are going to argue with me that you have to play mech even though it's boring. I'm just going to demonstrate to you that it's an absurd way of thinking when you have choice to play how you want.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[FoodFest.2061]

22 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No hold on ... this is a question of inclusion. Again, the point of the builds is that they DO fit in with 'regular' builds in how they perform. 

The reason your strike groups are full of mechs? probably because of a WHOLE bunch of different reasons, but certainly not because you get a MEDIOCRE 28K DPS with them. At this point, I'm calling out the absurdity that ANYONE is choosing to use a mech in team content because of the DPS it does. 

Ok you just stated yourself mechs is op in every situation , differents reasons ? answer your own question ! I will answer for you 

HAM : freaking op barrier pulse on demand healing , crazy uptime on alacrity , might , prot. ,vigor , regen. , very good condi cleanse , area breakstun for people , perma 1 stack stab .

I can go on ! 

Alacrity/dps : good power and in condi , mace being op (dealing huge power , condi , and giving barrier) easy alacrity apllication , can easily go for a 25 might application , while loosing minimum dps

power/condi : pew pew 28k ! nothing else to say.

 

You talk a lot but never bring up some proofs , i know "there is no need to bring up proof because , it's accessibilty " save your keyboard , there should be no elite in the world ! everybody should be equal , and the world is full of poneys puking rainbows ! well no sorry ! There will always be elite , there will always be some stuff in the game people wont access cause it's too difficult ,  or dont want to put a minimum effort into learning a rotation or a mechanic . so now what you play the game for 24 hours you level 80 and clear w5 dhuum cm , hopla game's done , uninstall , waiting for the next update content , cya .

 

This will affect greatly how the game is gonna keep up , you will have a lot people actually liking this easiness , and your game will fall in the mobile trash game , cause all you gonna get is easy content . Or anet keep it like previously , adding content pretty easy to all people to enjoy and adding content/classes fairly hard to understand but with a minimum effort and training , beatable .

 

A good way to ease things is the update on raids , many people were afraid of raids , but one wing a week they can chill and lookup for the mechanics of this wing , while knowing they should beat it with ease , cause +50% health healing and damage is pretty neat , thats good accessibilty , while still not just puking on people who trained like crazy to clean a specific wing.

And no need to answer this is vicious circle , we both are gonna argue the same freaking thing everytime . And iam not gonna lie you really start to p i s s me off so better ignore and we done , have a nice day!

Edited August 5, 2022 by FoodFest.2061

[SentriX.3209]

It's a "summoner" and if you've played any other MMO...the pet does most of the damage, it's pretty normal.

 

ANET has to decide the benchmarks for DPS and SUP classes and balance accordingly. The real issue is support Mech and not a dps LI build lol, it just shows how very little you understand about the game.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Liisjak.4509

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, FoodFest.2061 said:

Ok you just stated yourself mechs is op in every situation ...

Nope, I never stated that. I said there was lots of reasons they get a team and the mediocre DPS ISN'T one of them. 

1 hour ago, FoodFest.2061 said:

HAM : freaking op barrier pulse on demand healing , crazy uptime on alacrity , might , prot. ,vigor , regen. , very good condi cleanse , area breakstun for people , perma 1 stack stab .

I can go on ! 

Alacrity/dps : good power and in condi , mace being op (dealing huge power , condi , and giving barrier) easy alacrity apllication , can easily go for a 25 might application , while loosing minimum dps

power/condi : pew pew 28k ! nothing else to say.

Hold on ... seems like you aren't in the right thread. We aren't talking about how OP mechanist is here. We are talking about the damage it does for low effort which ANYONE would be hard pressed to classify as OP. 

Quote

 And iam not gonna lie you really start to p i s s me off so better ignore and we done

You tell me what I'm saying when I didn't. Then you argue with what you THINK I said to tell me I'm wrong ... and I'm pissing YOU off? OK ... I think your advice to ignore me is one of the greatest ideas ever if that's how this is going to work. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Kuma.1503]

6 hours ago, FoodFest.2061 said:

Also whats fake about 28k dps afk mech ?  I tried it too in real fight condition and it's exactly that (even a bit above) you have vidéo to prove it (teapot stated it , even laugh about it) , while some of you say it's fake . So do some tests and prove us we are wrong ! Words dont prove anything , we need facts . also some other facts , mech played at 25% in raids and in strike mission is just because people are iron man enjoyers i guess ?

I can confirm a 26.5k dps benchmark with exotic gear, exotic weapon, no infusions, and ascended trinkets. Food, buffs, and utilities used. 

I don't think the 28k number is fake news. Personally, this is one area where I think more QoL wasn't needed. If anything should have been given pet Autocast, it's Untamed's Unleashed pets. The level of pianoing you need to do to make use of those skills is challenging to manage, and I say that as someone who plays both of the piano classes. 

I don't think Mech should have full auto cast. That functionality should be given to untamed, which I previously assumed this change was meant for. 

[Tails.9372]

21 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

this is one area where I think more QoL wasn't needed

The thing is: the mech having it doesn't hurt in any tangible way either. If the build isn't full damage then it's better to not have everything on autocast anyway and if it is then it's overall still just a single digit % increase in DPS.

The biggest impact this is ultimately going to have is to give your average casual player the impression that the mech is actually acting more like a "pseudo player 2" which, in case anyone has forgotten, is exactly what they said the mech was supposed to be like in the first place.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Kuma.1503]

5 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

The thing is: the mech having it doesn't hurt in any tangible way either. If the build isn't full damage then it's better to not have everything on autocast anyway and if it is then it's overall still just a single digit % increase in DPS.

The biggest impact this is ultimately going to have is to give your average casual player the impression that the mech is actually acting more like a "pseudo player 2" which, in case anyone has forgotten, is exactly what they said the mech was supposed to be like in the first place.

Also fair. The game won't implode because this exists. For me it was more a case of  "Did we need this"?

Now that it's in the game, I won't be too upset if Anet decides to keep it, There is some merit to keeping this as well. 

Looking at things from the other perspective, some players would benefit greatly from having a decent dps option that requires little inputs. Just as an example, only being able to play with one hand. Builds like this definitely help players like that because in that instance they could use focus purely on movement while still outputting more than enough dps to down the boss and be useful to their group. 

This also means that there's a support these players could use  since the boon portion is semi-automated (they will still need to use shift signet to reposition the mech on occasion) I could imagine a build where you camp med kit, try to stay alive and let the mech handle boons. 

This wouldn't bring maximum output, but I reckon it would be enough to get the job done. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

Everyone here talking about they love accessibility in the name of keeping things OP, but nobody here talking about how this game/class fails PEAT actually causing people harm due to the utterly stupid VFX vomit.

 

 

[Kuma.1503]

22 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Everyone here talking about they love accessibility in the name of keeping things OP, but nobody here talking about how this game/class fails PEAT actually causing people harm due to the utterly stupid VFX vomit.

 

 

GW2 is really bad with VFX vommit in general. If you think Mech is bad about this, just wait until you see Mesmer and Scourge. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

Just now, Kuma.1503 said:

GW2 is really bad with VFX vommit in general. If you think Mech is bad about this, just wait until you see Mesmer and Scourge. 

I'm well-aware.  While I do not have photosensitive epilepsy (proven), I am epileptic and have largely stopped playing group content because the intensity of the VFX in this game makes me feel off sometimes totally independent of that, even if not having a seizure.  It's just way too much.

I just find it ironic people get very defensive about "accessibility" when it comes to keeping their in-game power as to trivialize content, but nobody gives a kitten about actual, real accessibility issues like people being forced to quit because ANet will not add a VFX slider and keeps ballooning the problem.

Because honestly, speaking as a disabled person who understands the difficulties daily life and some hobbies present, anyone who's actually severely-disabled enough to need to play the game with such low APM (or do any hobby with tremendous accommodation) isn't going to give a kitten about top-end performance.  It's our source of fun just to be able to partake, and so long as we're able to get through things and are welcomed enough as to not be burdensome on the group, it literally does not matter, because very few groups actually do reach that top end, anyways.

Using "accessibility" to justify keeping something around that utterly trivializes the experience and invalidates other sources of fun for other people is nonsense and frankly, super insulting to the disabled community as if we can't push our own boundaries a little more and be proud of our own accomplishments and triumphs getting past our own hurdles.

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Using "accessibility" to justify keeping something around that utterly trivializes the experience and invalidates other sources of fun for other people is nonsense and frankly, super insulting to the disabled community as if we can't push our own boundaries a little more and be proud of our own accomplishments and triumphs getting past our own hurdles.

Except the existence of LI builds to enable people to access the game doesn't invalidate other sources of fun for other people unless those people CHOOSE to use the LI builds. It makes no sense to be offended by this as a member of the disabled community. People have different reasons for playing whatever builds they want, even if they use a LI build and AREN'T disabled. I mean, you would never know the reason someone plays an LI build ... so how could you possibly take offense to it? These builds are not exclusive to any group of people. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Kuma.1503]

17 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

I'm well-aware.  While I do not have photosensitive epilepsy (proven), I am epileptic and have largely stopped playing group content because the intensity of the VFX in this game makes me feel off sometimes totally independent of that, even if not having a seizure.  It's just way too much.

I just find it ironic people get very defensive about "accessibility" when it comes to keeping their in-game power as to trivialize content, but nobody gives a kitten about actual, real accessibility issues like people being forced to quit because ANet will not add a VFX slider and keeps ballooning the problem.

Because honestly, speaking as a disabled person who understands the difficulties daily life and some hobbies present, anyone who's actually severely-disabled enough to need to play the game with such low APM (or do any hobby with tremendous accommodation) isn't going to give a kitten about top-end performance.  It's our source of fun just to be able to partake, and so long as we're able to get through things and are welcomed enough as to not be burdensome on the group, it literally does not matter, because very few groups actually do reach that top end, anyways.

Using "accessibility" to justify keeping something around that utterly trivializes the experience and invalidates other sources of fun for other people is nonsense and frankly, super insulting to the disabled community as if we can't push our own boundaries a little more and be proud of our own accomplishments and triumphs getting past our own hurdles.

You are right about there not being enough steps taken to address a wider range of accessibility issues. Photosensitivity being one of them. Settings like "Effect LoD" don't make much of a difference, and there isn't much discussion on what measures would help people with a broad variety of struggles. 

But that does not take away from people with other struggles. For example, as an artist, one particular issue I've been very weary of as of late is Carpel Tunnel. It gets meme'd about pretty often on the Engi/Ele subforums, but it's a legit issue that could have major ramifications on how I produce my work. 

LI builds are a good step to both help people with carpel tunnel, and give people an option if they wish to avoid developing it in the future. 

I don't have it yet, but I have noticed occasional hand pain when going from a 5+ hour long drawing session to playing guild wars, and on days like that I will openly admit that I'll bust out the rifle mech to give my hands a chance to rest. It allows me to continue playing my favorite class without worrying about long term consequences. 

Different people have different needs. LI builds obviously won't address every accessibility issue, and more absolutely needs to be done to address a broader range of issues, and I think more posts like yours could help bring these issues to light. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[coro.3176]

It currently is like this:

• LI: .........................................................................................................................................<===>
• HI: .........................<==============================================>

But it should be like this (excuse terrible ascii art):

• LI: ........................................................<===>
• HI: ........................<===============================================>

Or like this

• LI: ........................ <==================================>
• HI: ........................<===============================================>

LI should be LR (Low Reward). Or else, it should have opportunities to screw up, to do it wrong, to fail and have worse DPS, as HI does.

[Treacy.4067]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is no contradiction. My point is clear. The number of buttons someone pushes to get DPS is not a performance balancing issue. It's a consideration of accessibility. This isn't new; we have had LI builds since the beginning of this game. This is just one of the numerous ways the game accommodates a wide range of player capabilities. 

You contradicted yourself on balance.  And again, pushing ONE button then letting the computer do the rest is not about accessibility and it's not low intensity, it's no intensity.  It's automated gameplay akin to mindless mobile gaming.  

[JTGuevara.9018]

2 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

You contradicted yourself on balance.  And again, pushing ONE button then letting the computer do the rest is not about accessibility and it's not low intensity, it's no intensity.  It's automated gameplay akin to mindless mobile gaming.  

Man, I remember seeing one of those goofy 'click-click-click on the screen' sort of mobile games on youtube. Even those take some serious wrist action lmao!

[Alcatraznc.3869]

16 hours ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

 If you seriously believe it is fine to leave a build like the mech one in game, I fear for this game's development. Most players choose the path of least resistance towards goals and If you can almost afk a mech to beat endgame content in groups, Anet will see the signals and it won't just be the mech which will be like this.

 

The player base needs to voice their concern now so that this doesn't become a trend moving forward; guardian spirit weapons that do all of the job, ranger pets, necro minions, mesmer illusions, etc.

 

It doesn't help hiding behind the conviction that players will seek a challenge and play something else, 10 man groups already run more or less 5-6 mechs doing CMs, of course these aren't afk but require playing properly but then they do even more damage.

 

It is not balanced.

It is not fun.

And it will kill profession diversity.

And the game, if this persists.

 

That would be true if right now you would find nothing but Mechanist in every single gamemode. But it turns out nothing really changed at all. There are still people playing other classes because they like the said class. Shocking I know, even I cant believe there are people playing for fun and not pretending to play by using auto cast on everything possible.

 

It wont become a trend because as far as I know, Ranger, Guardian, Necro and Mesmer dont have to give up their class specific as well as 24ish utilities/damage skill AND an entire trait that could potentially buff the player, just to have a glorified pet.  And yes I am fine with this because it doesnt even reach the top DPS. It barely reaches Power quickness scrapper which is already among the lowest DPS spec available on Snowcrow. 

 

 

[Sunchaser.9854]

The thing about snowcrows comparisons, is that often, snowcrows benchmarks are balanced around the top 0.1% of players who often do frame perfect play, and that if actions are even off by say, 1/10th of a human second for reaction time or a 150-200 ms connection to a server, or hidden complications, you can perform almost the exact same rotation, same abilities, same cycle, and still run into only about, 60-70% of the dps appearing while the golem also is a completely mechanicless encounter that doesn't adjust for downtime, boss invincibility phases, condi rampup that results in it doing 5-15k instead of the 35k the mechanists afk towards autoshotting from 1200 range while others are melee or arbitrary limited to like a effective 300-600 range on a 'range class'. while it also can provide twice as much alacity and achieve 2x the results for 4 vs 20 buttons, or sometimes 0. 

 

The golem is a good show of potential, but balancing mech to actually be near like 35-36k dps by using 4 buttons or 28k dps by autoing when there are 20 button specs that.. are in the 23k-32k range is jarring. Even the specs that are 39k in a golem often end up being 8-15k in practical raid encounters where the top dps are 7 mechanists with a dps meter that looks like this.

 

50 person squad:
#1: 4 button mechanist: 30-35k dps

#2. 33k: Mechanist

#3 28k Mechanist

#4 27k Mechanist

#5 26k Mechanist

#6 25k Alacity mechanist

#7 23k Healing alacity mechanist 

#8 10k-25k top non mechanist of a player group of 50. 

#9 18k A mechanist who died but had his bot afk the whole fight. 

#10 17k A mechanist who got lost finding their way to the boss, but eventually autoshot it anyways.

#11-20 assorted 5k-15k dps players

#20-50 30 players who think they're doing 40k dps, but are actually doing 2-6k dps. Or even less.

 

I'd like to challenge most players to go to the special training area to try their personal rotation and bench 35k and upload a log and hit the snowcrows rotation, 35k dps is the mechanist 4 button rotation dps. And i can assure you, there's a lot of people who deal 2-4k dps in strikes and raids who think they're actually doing 10x more than they are.. But instead of being a skill issue, often what happens is they are pressing abilities. but even performing the same actions in sequence doesn't let you even know if there are absurdly hidden things like moves animation canceling each other or canceling attacks for using them...

In fact in the open world, many of the same '40k' snowcrow benchmark specs, routinely are seen getting only 10-20k practical dps in strikes and raids to the 25-35k afked dps of a mechanist, meaning there's no reward payoff for 99.9% of players because mechanist is literally balanced to autoattack or use 4 buttons to match a 20 button frame perfect snowcrows rotation that doesn't account for mobs moving.  

Even coordinated multi years raiders saying they're lucky to see even 50-80% of it in a raid. Even most people in raids and strikes who have years of experience are mostly being seen in the only 15k-25k range, so having a spec autoattack to 28k or use 4 buttons to 35k with 1200 range is a signifcant gap. It's pretty common for someone who pressed 20 buttons on a ele or bladesworn for 4-15k dps to marvel that they can 'press 4 buttons' to 25k-35k raid dps very easily.  while going. 'This is just ridicolous, it's half or a quarter of the apm or effort for nearly double or triple the damage i was working off before). 

Mind you, try the golem on a non mechanist before you trash a 15k raid dps ele player. Some specs just aren't built equal at all for reward. Balancing mechanist around 0.1% benchmarks where 80% is considered to be a good raider and mech afks to 95% dps while being able to provide 100% alacity vs 50% is.. just a huge gap. It's literally 2x more alacity on a auto attack spec.

And who in their right mind will take 50% alac for 20 buttons and stance swaps over 100% alak for afking? 

Anyone not a mech  can feel free to test their dps at the golem if they'd like, (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special_Forces_Training_Area ), you can enter it from the south lion arch portal area or from strikes/arborstone if you purchase a tp there for about 50 s.

(I think most players would be more surprised that 90% of players don't do 30-40k dps like they thought, but pretty much 2k-10k for someone running their build blind spamming cds is the norm for some specs, while autoattacking on others will auto bench 20k-35k. )

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Sunchaser.9854

[Endaris.1452]

The average regular raider reaches maybe 75-85% of the snow crows benchmarks on their class.
The percentile that actually manages to break past 90% of the bench is really small in my experience - I've been doing raid trainings at RTI for over a year so I think I have a decent impression.

So overall the expected numbers for most players are more around 27-32k DPS, dependinig on class / proficiency

Comparing within a typical LFG squad, you'll find that this 0 apm build will actually perform as well as regular builds or better because it has nearly guaranteed 100% DPS uptime thanks to being ranged and having the mech as 60% of the DPS being immune to all sorts of raid mechanics. There is simply no reason to put in any effort in learning a rotation anymore while this exists.

Overall adding unconditional autocast on all mech abilities feels like a punch in the face of non-mech players when you still can't put more than a single one on your skill bar. Otherwise you might at least be able to come up with similar memes for other classes.

[Kyon.9735]

Please someone stop this certain dev from slowly turning GW2 into a mobile game MMO where everything is auto. 

 

Whats next on the list? Auto-stunbreak from utility slot? Auto-pathing and auto-quests? 

[soul.9651]

11 minutes ago, Kyon.9735 said:

Please someone stop this certain dev from slowly turning GW2 into a mobile game MMO where everything is auto. 

 

Whats next on the list? Auto-stunbreak from utility slot? Auto-pathing and auto-quests? 

Guild wars 2 immortal with mech skins at gem store is next

[Sunchaser.9854]

Consider a hypothetical scenario.

 

A game has a grandmaster league where the top 0.1% of players compete.

 

The average sniper, is 10x worse than the elite 0.1% sniper who can instantly kill anyone for 450 damage with a instant headshot in 0.1s for the Grandmaster players. The upper 10% of players take about 0.2 seconds for a headshot, the lower 90% are anywhere from 1 second a headshot to never landing one. 

The dev sees this, and decides to make it so players who join his favorite sports team get a auto aiming headshot rifle that automatically headshots 95% of the time at 0.105 s speeds while dealing triple headshot damage. He releases a community endorsed aimbot.

Slowly the game turns from 10% aimbot into 70% aimbots in this hypothetical.
I don't have a problem with low intensity players providing like 90% of the results but a thing people miss is i have arcdps and.. It's hard not to feel that the level mechanists are balanced around feel a bit overturned. When i enter a group of 50 players. I will see one non mechanist do about 15k-25k dps. Then i will see 9 mechanists in a group of 50 dealing 25k-35k. I enter another group. it's the same thing. Slowly a class that was 10% of population before is slowly becoming 40% to 70% of some groups and you're seeing top meters become just literal hoards of 25k-35k afk mechanists.

The 35k dps is the 4 button rotation, the 36k-37k is the full kit. Many people overestimate their own abilities, and think they are doing 30k-40k dps and i thought so to. But the truth is a vast majority of people in those 50 men squad are between 2-8k dps. And a fair amount of them are somehow even lower at 0.5k-2k dps for the bottom 20 of 50. 

 

It's hard not to feel like mechanist is balanced at not around, 90% of a average player's rotation. which would probably be a pretty nice comfy 20k-30k for the upper 5-10%. But it's balanced to be 90% of a 0.1% player rotation, which gets hard not to feel like it's pretty much a 90% of a aimbot's level of performance. Sure, a highly skilled player with 0.09 second reflexes could beat a aimbot.. But it's pretty much balanced around automatic top 2-5% pug player Performance. But maybe that'd be a misnomer, since 90% of groups, it's not a exageration to say if you see 10 mechanists in a 50 man dragon's end, you can work your tail off to be the highest non mechanist dps.. only for the top 11 dps to be just one person and 10 mechanists. 

[anbujackson.9564]

.

Edited August 6, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Obtena.7952]

The best part of people pointing out the high volume of mechs used in endgame team content to claim power rifle mechs need a nerf ...  when they ignore the fact that they aren't all power rifle users. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The best part of people pointing out the high volume of mechs used in endgame team content to claim power rifle mechs need a nerf ...  when they ignore the fact that they aren't all power rifle users. 

So you're admitting that mechs are taking up all the spots? 

Anyway, it's not just rifle:

PMace 

 

 

BombKit  https://dps.report/clDW-20220802-220034_golem 

Flamethrower  https://dps.report/Bgni-20220802-220730_golem  

Tool Kit  https://dps.report/Bgni-20220802-220730_golem