Is power creep a concern? [Merged]

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 8/5/2022 at 8:02 AM, Einsof.1457 said:

Is anyone else concerned that the game is getting a bit too easy? Things like jade bot cores are contributing to power creep and the trivializing of a lot of content over time. New elites seem to necessarily be more powerful to drive sales of expansions which also contributes. While it's not totally game breaking, I really hope the power creep slows down.  Things I've noticed is that the fractal CMs are much easier than they were a couple years ago, and some raid bosses (even without emboldened) are just embarrassing (cairn and MO to name two). Just a bit concerned by this trend of making the game easier and making gameplay simpler. I don't want to play a homgenized borefest.

 

No we keep getting abilities nerfed. I can't speak to PvE but in WvW we just keep being hit by nerfs. Its wet noodle vs wet noodle, so no stop asking for more nerfs. We don't want everything to be 111111111 that the nerf feast has been leading to. If you need to increase scaling in PvE all the fine, but the nerfvest needs to end, bring abilities back in line after the Nerfest Feb patch, it been over a year. Where is the otherside of that patch already. Stop balancing on glass on glass builds.

[Mungrul.9358]

1 minute ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Its wet noodle vs wet noodle

That's because all the most played professions and builds in WvW now can provide 100% uptime of all boons, and sustain boons have outpaced DPS ones.

Like I say, the devs should start ignoring people saying "X Profession can do that, so my profession should be able to as well!"

Start minimising the amount of boons professions can provide on their own, don't allow any one person on their own the ability to maintain 100% uptime on ANY boon, strip out a few of the defensive boons, and we might be starting to get back to something like skill instead of boon spam.

[Luthan.5236]

I have not revisited all the older content - and I did stuff in realease order mostly. (Meaning: Though I started with S2 and later at a time when PoF existed already for a long time ... I played S2 with core professions, HoT and S3 with the HoT elite, ... trying for most achievements.)

I do not think there is a problem between players - people that complain that for newer players it will get easier (should they decide to play old stuff with the newer elites) ... should keep in mind that the latest maps are still designed with the latest specs in mind. And newer players will have a lot more content to catch up - faster is okay there.

For some stuff like the gauntlet in the recent festival ... felt a big difference with my main engineer and now the mechanist available. I can do all challengers each day once ... without putting in a big effort. 😄 This might devalue one or another achievement a bit. For most of the game and most of the more casual achievements I do not really care though. But with stuff like Turai Ossa ... I liked to make a build with core engineer to kill him - a few years ago when I tried him first. Less build switching now. And I still could decide to do  him on core.

And for main economy/farming I do not really care if it is easier for people. (Basically for most repetitive content. Also stuff like fractals that you might do daily.) Only for the achievements that you usually only get once ... might be interesting to have a few that require the player to play them as intended at their release.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

I see it as a problem, as I have seen it as a problem for the past years. A global increase in DPS requires adjustments in open world and probably even in instanced content. If you have a boss with a short introduction line and it drops before it even finished half the sentence, that is?
Farmers: EFFICIENCY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No it is not. What those players fail to understand is that even such a small piece of content requires work and resources to create. You need someone who came up with that line and wrote it down. It has to be checked by the superiors and get accepted. Then they have to pick a voice-actor, send them the line and record it (= in a studio). The voice actor usually does not live in a box in the studio, so they have to travel to the studio. It could take a few tries to find the correct voice-tone to fit into the scene. The line gets-recorded and faces optimizations and adjustments until it is ready to be implemented in the game. Then they have to test it and make sure it lines up with the text/chat correctly. 

I've probably missed a lot of the steps, because I do not work in that business. Those were the few things that came to my mind when I thought about this very simple scenario. It is only a small example, but you can see how many people are involved, how much energy is consumed and how many wages you have to pay, just to create a single introduction line of boss npc. If it is skipped due to power-creep, the resources (efficiency thinking) could have been spent elsewhere. But that was not the case. This means the resources have been wasted.

Think about bosses which cannot even use their special moves. Or trigger complicated combat mechanics, which bound tons of resources for weeks to develop. All wasted, because the thing drops within a few seconds. 

Note: That is also the reason why I do not like the skip-mentality in instanced content. Thinking about efficiency, you do the opposite. And you motivate the developers to spend less time in pondering about more difficult content. Why waste precious resources on something the community skips anyway? 

[Cuks.8241]

On 8/6/2022 at 4:26 AM, Labjax.2465 said:

I was realizing recently that's part of why I've enjoyed more traditional trinity healing roles because they are situational and reactive, rather than static rotations.

This is as far from the reality as possible. The traditional trinity mmorpg I've played had way more static and one dimensional healing role. It was a role I've always hated because it was so boring. If you were the tank healer you basically healed the tank all the time, maybe cleansed a bit or provided some passive buff. 

In gw2 healing is much more dynamic. It's the first game I actually enjoy healing. On my healing Firebrand I provide quickness, fury, might, swift. I can reliably cleanse if needed, I can reliably provide stability if needed. I have a unique dmg buff I weave in. I can reflect projectiles if needed and I can bring great CC. I have pulls. I have on demand proactive dmg mitigation via aegis and I have burst heal combos. I actually do dps. 

In wow I was looking at raid UI 90 % of the time spamming cheap heal and changed to big or aoe heal every once in a while. 

[Einsof.1457]

3 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

No we keep getting abilities nerfed. I can't speak to PvE but in WvW we just keep being hit by nerfs. Its wet noodle vs wet noodle, so no stop asking for more nerfs. We don't want everything to be 111111111 that the nerf feast has been leading to. If you need to increase scaling in PvE all the fine, but the nerfvest needs to end, bring abilities back in line after the Nerfest Feb patch, it been over a year. Where is the otherside of that patch already. Stop balancing on glass on glass builds.

Not asking for nerfs...I don't want 11111111. I want dynamic high skill ceiling like the old days. The issue is that modern 1111111 is just as effective as actually learning to play. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Astralporing.1957]

On 8/5/2022 at 2:02 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

Is anyone else concerned that the game is getting a bit too easy?

No. My concern is that Anet tries to make things harder.

On 8/5/2022 at 2:02 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

Things I've noticed is that the fractal CMs are much easier than they were a couple years ago, and some raid bosses (even without emboldened) are just embarrassing (cairn and MO to name two).

Those two raid bosses were always embarassingly easy. As long as you knew mechanics - which most raiders nowadays do. Same with fractal CMs - most of the players doing them nowadays are people that have repeated them hundreds of times already. It's no surprise they seem easier.

[HowlKamui.5120]

I don't think so. GW2 does have power creep, but I feel that it's in an acceptable amount compared to say ESO which is another "horizontal progression" MMO but each release includes more and more powerful armor sets but is still at the same item level to the point where hard to obtain dps armor set combinations have more than twice the DPS of the easy to get dps armor set combinations.

 

In GW2, dlc zones actually became more enjoyable for me when I got stronger because I no longer needed to group up to kill say, bounties in PoF, or hero point challenges in HoT, but were still challenging (in that I had to pay attention).

Edited August 8, 2022 by HowlKamui.5120

[Yaki.9563]

This is what happens when you keep buffing things to bring them up to "par" instead of nerfing outliers. One of the first things I noticed coming back into the game after 7 years, with the exact same gear and specs, was how unthreatening Orr was. I remember it being a pain in the behind and now I just cruise around like it's any other mid-level zone.

As a simple example, I don't recall there being Quickness and Alacrity at all before HoT. Now it's commonplace to have 100% uptime on both of those in group content. That's easily a 30%+ powercreep just from those boons.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Yaki.9563

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Yaki.9563 said:

This is what happens when you keep buffing things to bring them up to "par" instead of nerfing outliers. One of the first things I noticed coming back into the game after 7 years, with the exact same gear and specs, was how unthreatening Orr was. I remember it being a pain in the behind and now I just cruise around like it's any other mid-level zone.

Fun fact: absolutely nothing has changed about Orr in those 7 years. And if you are running a 7 year old spec in a 7 years old gear, you aren't any stronger than you were then either - in fact, due to meta shifting, you're likely weaker. Which means the issue is not with the content changing, but with your memory being flawed.

1 hour ago, Yaki.9563 said:

As a simple example, I don't recall there being Quickness and Alacrity at all before HoT. Now it's commonplace to have 100% uptime on both of those in group content. That's easily a 30%+ powercreep just from those boons.

Indeed, that is one thing that did change. Quickness originally was not a boon, but only a special effect of Mesmer's Timewarp (and Timewarp alone), and alacrity did not exist at all. Both things have changed with HoT - but that was already 7 years ago. It's just that you're extremely unlikely to see any impact of that while doing open world Orr.

Also, if you think that core builds in pre-HoT times could not make the content that existed then laughably easy, you simply weren't paying attention.

[The Boz.2038]

On 8/5/2022 at 5:08 PM, Sunchaser.9854 said:

AFK mechanist: Can provide 100% alacity and a 35k and 4 button rotation. Can also enter raids as AFK range dps, spec into 100% alacity vs 50% alac on other dps specs.  

Where are you people getting these numbers from, lol!?

[Sunchaser.9854]

The 4 button rotation is 35k dps and the 0 button afk rotation 28k dps. Can just afk on a mechanist or watch a video if you want to. The alacity they can provide is also 100% uptime vs some alac specs being set to 50% uptime or less.

It's enough of a skill disparity that on the engineer fourms, enough people are complaining akin to 'engineer is just as complicated as any other class. I still have to walk to the boss and press f to loot the gear. by that definition, it can't be afk. because i have to be there to COLLECT the loot' 

If someone's definition of "i can't be afk in a raid if i have to move the loot" is uh.. their bar for defining intensity in a class. I just have no words to say. 

All the features, and rotations of a engineer build can be summed in a 1-2 minute video. Press 1-4 buttons, or 0 if you prefer, do 28k-35k dps. Do more buttons to do 37k dps if you want or use burst buttons to get 40-44k dps that can't be clipped by mob invulnerability phases. lose 10-40% uptime walking to a 1200 range mob because you have 1200 range. And if the dps spot is filled, just go alac, heal alac, or range dps, condi level 35k-37k power dps which is inherantly INSTANT without drawback or 10-20+ seconds of ramp on 1 second lifetime mobs.

Then when you talk they begin adding on. ' But you guys DON'T know how hard it is to play mechanist. on top of performing near top levels of dps for basically afking.. sometimes i lose my +25% default speed TELEPORTING with a signet.  I have tons of advantages other classes fight for 1 of, that i have three of. If i still have to loot a boss, and walk to it, that means i can't be afk."

Meanwhile while the mechanist's biggest worry is moving forward to press 1, w, and f to loot the boss. Catalysts are like spending 37 minute video guides to play a paper mache class that explodes if you sneeze on it, that got nerfed since 0.1% of the playerbase stacked them for 0.01% skill based content and like 2% of people played them let alone like found 5 to stack in a 9 class game. 

It's just simple numbers, when one class can be stacked to 4-9 numbers while providing all the core boons of each class (100% alacity vs 50% alacity, instant 35k-44k dps/burst on condi without the drawbacks of condi, 100% uptime with 1200 range without the drawbacks of melee having it's 5% higher bench get -40% reduced by downtime, lack of boons, desireability, etc.)

it creates a situation where one class is far more desireable/stackable than the other 8/9, and one class can take 4/5 spots in a group while a selfish dps might only have 1-2 slots open per 4-5 boon dps if they want those 25 might 100% alac/quickness/vulnerability/fury stacks in a 5 man where they provide none. 

Basically, people will want a paradox. They want "challenging" content to exist that's harder then open world. But also want the "challenging content to be as easy as possible, preferably afk if possible too." and then say it's boring when they play a class that can automate the whole thing.. Seems like a paradox. How can you simultaneously create 'challenging' content that is 'challenging but afkable with no player interaction(??)

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Sunchaser.9854

[The Boz.2038]

10 minutes ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

The 4 button rotation is 35k dps and the 0 button afk rotation 28k dps.

I see that this "afk mechanist with 100% alac and 35k DPS" has suddenly morphed and multiplied into three distinct mechanist builds.

Lol.

[Sunchaser.9854]

I mean, switching talents is hardly far from what other classes are expected to do. Many classes of the other 8/9 are lucky enough to maybe have 1/2 roles in a spec or class even.

 

Even guardian, who considers itself lucky with firebrand will say.

 

"I'm really dissapointed with the state of classes honestly. While firebrand is good for boons, what is the point of willbender? It doesn't do dps, it doesn't do good boons. It doesn't provide any good things that make it desireable to a team. and the same can be said for dragon hunter, these classes are pretty much only undesirable to bring to a group, and when i told that i would be playing a willbender to provide a boon here, the raid leader laughed and kicked me." - Guardian fourms.

 

Pretty much, if you're designing the game to be accessible, they created a scenario where one class in 9 can go afk, the other 8 have to perform piano rotations with 10k-35k golem ranges that often become 10k-25k upper 50% raid or strike dps ranges in practice. In that case.. If they hate piano specs, why the crap were they choosing to design their game to make every OTHER spec a piano spec that unless it has a 30 button opener + 10 button rotation snowcrow rotation memorized for a golem.. If they didn't even like their own specs being designed like that?
It's like choosing to design a sniper rifle that requires you to solve 4 calculus problems while simultaneously playing the piano with your feet, or else the sniper rifle will explode and lose the energy to provide alacity meter while being a glass cannon that dies from being sneezed on in melee range. While another person has a aimbot that solves every problem while options to also simultaneously heal for the complexity  of another dps class doing half of their dps spec's weapon + stance 10-30 sequence snowcrow rotation loop to get 32k snowcrows dps to 35k mechanist 4 button dps. 

 

Basically in shorter words, 30 button snowcrow rotations memorized in sequence will get you the same results of a mechanist going afk and autoattacking from 0-1200 range. Everyone thinks they're a apm god, while 95% of players in a pug afk to 2-8k dps. If they want to raise the floor so it's a literal 15k-20k afk 30k-40k active playstyle. I have no problem with that. The problem is right now, one class takes the job of 8, while requiring fractions of effort. Since it's not balanced around 90% of a average player which would probably be like, 15-25k raid dps to be accessible, but 95% of a snowcrows 0.1% player bench.

It's tuned to the point that probably 98% of pug players who do 2-10k dps to 15k-25k raid dps will probably perform more well, afking a 28k-32k dps afk benching mechanist, than a 30 button sequence weapon swapping snowcrows rotation guide for 3% more dps for 600% more effort. You can, but who will?  Install arcdps and you'll see.. lots of people DRAMATICALLY underperform their classes not to 30k.. but 2-4k.. (Past #5.. sometimes people in strikes or raids aren't even passing 4k dps.. sometimes there's 4x 0.5k dps people i don't even know what's going on with. )

The mechanists will be able to afk to 28k ranged / 32k melee / 35k for 4 buttons while other specs can use 10-20. But since that uses multiple words, it's probably not going to be read, hmm. 

 

When you can achieve 97% of the results for 3% of the effort. Guess what class people will play.

While also simultaneously saying. "There needs to be more challenging content in the game." "But it shouldn't be challenging enough i can't afk it while playing on one hand and eating a burrito" 🤔

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Where are you people getting these numbers from, lol!?

Nowhere. AFK mechanist is not capable of doing that. Mind you, that does not mean getting those numbers is hard, but calling it an AFK build is definitely a misrepresentation of the situation.

[The Boz.2038]

22 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nowhere. AFK mechanist is not capable of doing that. Mind you, that does not mean getting those numbers is hard, but calling it an AFK build is definitely a misrepresentation of the situation.

Yeah, that was my point.

[Omega.6801]

If we go by the average forum post, the game is still asking for too much and until everything is nerfed down to be a quick time event, it will still be "literally impossible" to get. Gaming is over, the time of the interactive movie has come.

[Sunchaser.9854]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nowhere. AFK mechanist is not capable of doing that. Mind you, that does not mean getting those numbers is hard, but calling it an AFK build is definitely a misrepresentation of the situation.

I mean mind you, the dps numbers are actually in the dps linked or findable if you dig around enough

 

28k for afking with rifle

32k dps from this player for afking with a mace

28-32k dps will clear a lot of content when the average pug is like in wild 5-20k ranges when it comes to hitting the field. 

And the 35k is just for adding 4-7 buttons with optimization added. They're not too hard to hit.  They're called afk for away from keyboard because they are actually literally away from keyboard 32K. Before even the mech auto ability patch which adds more...away from keyboard ability.. Can you even spot their mouse moving on the screen? 

[Astralporing.1957]

19 minutes ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

I mean mind you, the dps numbers are actually in the dps linked or findable if you dig around enough

 

28k for afking with rifle

32k dps from this player for afking with a mace

28-32k dps will clear a lot of content when the average pug is like in wild 5-20k ranges when it comes to hitting the field. 

So, you admit that the numbers you supplied in your first post were not for the AFK version. Nice we can agree on something.

19 minutes ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

And the 35k is just for adding 4-7 buttons with optimization added. They're not too hard to hit. 

Is clicking 3-7 buttons now called being AFK? That seems to me like a very weird definition of being away from keyboard.

19 minutes ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

They're called afk for away from keyboard because they are actually literally away from keyboard 32K.

You mentioned an AFK build with 35k and 100% alac upkeep and range capability. A 32k melee build (and one that requires specific positioning), which does not give 100% alac is something else completely.

Please, do not try to mix several different builds into one and use that nonexisting mix to support your point in a discussion, because that way you will lose even an otherwise winnable argument.

[Sunchaser.9854]

Hmm yes, expecting telepathy from the fourms for responding to a comment i see? So you asked about numbers, and then went "AHAH. i wasn't talking about numbers at all, I WAS THINKING OF SOMETHING ENTIRELY ELSE SHERLOCK"

🙄 Alright, so i just had to develop telepathy to argue on the fourms to detect that. No in fact.. the numbers you were talking about.. from the linked videos.. Weren't in fact the numbers you were talking about. But you wanted a entirely different bench for the same spec but with slightly different build selections or sometimes weapons. 

Anyways, i know a common problem is mechanist players only play one spec or class. But you realize it's pretty trivially easy for just about anyone from any other mmorpg to adjust.. their build on a fly.. especially when it's a pretty routine thing.

You get weapons for near free for unlocking, sometimes you even use the same. The actually hilarious thing is all the videos. I consider.. Are actually pretty plainly linked.

As mentioned, the peormance levels for what players have achieved via afking. Which is literally described as Away from keyboard, not misreading part of a fourm post to agree with yourself (Not that it's new to me on a internet game's fourm where afk builds are optimal), but as far as video game builds go in general go. It's a literal away from keyboard, AFK build.

For the 28k-32k mentioned with video links. They were attached with video clips and you could read them anytime. You can declare yourself the winner of any show you want to, but i'm can always feel free to roll my eyes as well, drink my coffee and move on to another post. 

I pretty much swap my open world to raiding to dungeon builds pretty much any time or on the fly between shiro and invocation because one has pretty handy self heals, the others has better raid energy for ability management. I dont' consider them new builds personally because it's the same class and pretty trivally easy to change weapons or change talents or click a preset. Plus it's pretty common for average people joining a raid who join as mech to offer 3 options at once, Power rifle, alacity power rifle, Heal alacity mechanist. 

I'm going to already predict the future, predict you will not read this post, argue with a fictional version of me. (Go nuts, it's your head), and im gonna get back to sipping my coffee and not giving a care of what you think haha. it's video game fourms. Where I can read less words than U can be a "winning" argument lmao.  

Edited August 8, 2022 by Sunchaser.9854

[Sunchaser.9854]

Anyways to avoid sidetracks. If a group brings 7-9 mechanists. Because they can provide 100% alacity on one alac player, Rifle or mace, doesn't matter. I consider it 7-9 mechanist players. I don't consider Rifle or mace seperate specializations any more than i consider Mallyx Shortbow Renegade / Kalia AxeMace renegade to be seperate builds every 10 second weapon swap. It's pretty normal for other classes to include weapon swaps as parts of base rotations. So someone using a mace they literally get for free in offslot or using their power rifle for both builds is considered a same spec to me.

When there's 7-9 mechanists in a group, but not many of the other classes, and yet still have their autos buffed 20%. I still kinda see that as a bit iffy. Class 'diversity' does not mean Make the other 8 classes ditch eles/warriors to become 8-9 mechs for afk 28-32k dps, 35k 4 button dps, 25k 100% alac dps, maybe a HAM for heals and 1 firebrand for fury/quickness because it's the only few boons the mech's don't autoprovide when stacked. 

Compare that to someone trying to play a willbender and just saying their raid leader didn't even acknowledge the spec existed and kicked them, regardless of being willing to try them or not from the guardian fourms. Balance should mean bringing the player, not the class imo. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Sunchaser.9854

[Bakeneko.5826]

50 minutes ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

Alright, so i just had to develop telepathy to argue on the fourms to detect that

Not telling straight up lies would be good start.

[Sunchaser.9854]

Yes yes. The mechanist afking to 28-32k dps is a lie because you couldn't find the video that was posted 4 times...  Let me guess, they beat one of your benches for playing by being inactive so it's a "lie", or they achieved the result, but another person didn't? Even for a afk as in literally AWAY from keyboard.. there's still people who get 25k pressing buttons vs 28k people who don't even touch it. How is a miracle of science, but seeing as you specify 0, if you want the video of the spec man.

 

Just link the number and what build it was and i can link the snowcrows 25k power rifle mechanist 100% alac video or the 28k rifle afk video or the 32k afk mace autoattacker video or the 35k mech 4 button rotation video... 

Still doesn't change that it's a inherant paradox to make "challenging content" also "afkable and beatable on one hand". I mean there's still curves to entry but when it comes to videos it's not that hard to find a collection of feats. 

I was told that the fourms wanted less pictures so there's a video if you want. He hits 40k-35k in the video at points quite a fair bit for only 4 button rotation and while you can argue the mech should be controlled, it's still a pretty easymode spec to each class and anyone with half a brain installing arc and watching pug meters can see a problem with the class dominating pugs with minimal effort for a good reason.

 

You can still beat bad players, you can also talk to them too and ask them what they did and "I walked my dog" or "i went to microwave a burrito".. are NOT.. made up examples for 25k mechanists afking to the #1-9 spots in pug metas or raids to a #8 10k-20k dps warrior as the 2nd best in a open meta of 50. While watching people #15-50 fall off 5-10k dps to 0.5k-4k dps bricks. 

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

Hmm yes, expecting telepathy from the fourms for responding to a comment i see?

Odd way to spell "Sorry, I was wrong", but okay.

[Sunchaser.9854]

I mean I'd they'd at least give me a nudge on what's apparently "false" or fake news it'd give a hintm all sources to videos are provided. The 32k afk mace mechanism has been posted with direct links numerous times. The 35k for 4 buttons mechanism link is there numerous times.

 

The person afking alac mechanism to type 'Google your fursona quiz' as well as a guide on how to play mechanist and getting a challenge mode 0:52 or 0:53 speed kill floats around. The "rifle alac build that doesn't exist" exists, ( https://snowcrows.com/builds/engineer/mechanist/power-alacrity-mechanist ). So please, if someone is actually interested in any sources you can ask for it or see them nearly everywhere. But it doesn't seem like fake news to say it literally can excel at taking over pug spots, as its basically a class that trivalizes many forms of content meant to be executed with the distraction of a hard to master "piano rotation", so to speak, while having golem results that translates well into raid encounters and has

 

Many players flat out joke state they microwaved burritos to 20-28k afk dps very often and got better dps results. The forums can be a place where " i can't reed, u loos, WORD BAD dumdum"  can be thrown as a argument. So I'd like to know if they don't actually care and just want to play the class longer for personal reasons or if they couldn't find a linked inches away video link etc of whatever their lie was.

 

Unless joking about developing telepathy was interpreted to need to be a literal argument... 😂