Regarding the August 23 balance preview....power creep is not good .

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 hour ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Yeah, its called growing up and getting responsabilities

I didnt realize every non-casual gamer was a child.

[anbujackson.9564]

53 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

The game was powercrept at the highest end of performance for quite a while, yes, but now the powercreep is dripping into every part of the game, even those parts that have always been very easy (which is the majority of the game). Which can create a multitude of problems - makes the game more boring, especially at entry levels, less feel of accomplishment, teaches nothing but bad habits, because combat mechanics become easier to ignore, and it kills immersion by removing any sense of danger and makes it feel like the world is filled with completely incompetent people that can't handle even the most harmless enemies without help.

It is why i despised open world and story content in ESO (and it is something that is criticised by many others there too). Too easy is not good.

Pretty much this. 

Imagine being a new player running around. Your base weapon skills keep increasing in strength while enemies died in 4 hits already. 

If there is no sense of accomplishment, there is no fun either. Of course there are also those players who just walk in the areas for sightseeing. Sure I guess. But quite frankly they dont count. They wouldnt even know that mech is pretty much a spec that plays itself while dealing more damage in real encounters than you in your tryhard rotation as elementalist. Which is by the way very frustrating.

Just imagine an athlete that practices every day just to get beaten by others who cheat with physical enhancements like medicine. Thats not fun or motivating at all.

[Ashgar.3024]

1 hour ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

I didnt realize every non-casual gamer was a child.

Judging by Reddit...

Lets just say maturity and age aren't necessarily always tied.

Either way, my point is that most people eventually reach a point in life where they can't commit to obsessing over reaching 99% benchmarks or being the first to kill whatever boss or just being "the best like no one ever was" in a video game. If you don't realize the amount of time and personal bandwith this requires... it just means you haven't gotten there yet.

Which is fine. I just think complaining about the game changing is an easy copout. 

There's plenty of room to play this game "hardcore" still, even if Anet doesn't necessarily balance its content to be a pseudo-eSport for 2 weeks then nerf it into the ground like say... WoW does.

I mean heck, people still speedrun Super Mario 64.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Sporks.4395]

I don't get why anyone would complain about worthless weapons and classes being relevant in PvE. Sounds like elitist garbo to me. You know what is awesome about the ele weapon buffs? The class will still be hard to play. You know who cares about it? Ele mains only. No one is going to struggle to learn a complicated Espec, especially when there are builds that are just plain easier to play and yield good results. You are not going to see a 500% increase in ele players overnight. What you will see, however, is ele mains getting into parties and competing. At least on tempest... 

 

QoL changes are always good. Look at necro staff. S2 does just over 200 damage on full zerk. S3 just over 350. S5 just under 200. How is that balanced in pve? You have traits linked to staff that should make it a good weapon. the damage is so dismal though, there is never a reason to take it. Ever. The shouts are also abysmal damage right now. Why can't reaper do over 30k dps on bench? It offers nothing else to the table other than damage and CC. Harb does insane damage, and the quick harb build still benches 3k more dps than power reaper right now.

 

I mean, we could nerf every build to the abysmal state of power reaper right now... Then just run cele everything on support builds to battle of attrition bosses down. That sounds like a great time. I would love to take 6 hours to clear raids with 10 cele condi support builds... barf...

This patch is going to be good for the health of PvE. You will see new builds. You will see new team comps. You will see raids and CM strikes with more than 3 classes and still have good completion rates. Nothing is bad about that. They can tweak high end PvE interactions later once they fix the horrific balance that is most of the E-specs. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Sporks.4395
forgot to type stuff.

[Einsof.1457]

3 hours ago, Sporks.4395 said:

I don't get why anyone would complain about worthless weapons and classes being relevant in PvE. Sounds like elitist garbo to me. You know what is awesome about the ele weapon buffs? The class will still be hard to play. You know who cares about it? Ele mains only. No one is going to struggle to learn a complicated Espec, especially when there are builds that are just plain easier to play and yield good results. You are not going to see a 500% increase in ele players overnight. What you will see, however, is ele mains getting into parties and competing. At least on tempest... 

 

QoL changes are always good. Look at necro staff. S2 does just over 200 damage on full zerk. S3 just over 350. S5 just under 200. How is that balanced in pve? You have traits linked to staff that should make it a good weapon. the damage is so dismal though, there is never a reason to take it. Ever. The shouts are also abysmal damage right now. Why can't reaper do over 30k dps on bench? It offers nothing else to the table other than damage and CC. Harb does insane damage, and the quick harb build still benches 3k more dps than power reaper right now.

 

I mean, we could nerf every build to the abysmal state of power reaper right now... Then just run cele everything on support builds to battle of attrition bosses down. That sounds like a great time. I would love to take 6 hours to clear raids with 10 cele condi support builds... barf...

This patch is going to be good for the health of PvE. You will see new builds. You will see new team comps. You will see raids and CM strikes with more than 3 classes and still have good completion rates. Nothing is bad about that. They can tweak high end PvE interactions later once they fix the horrific balance that is most of the E-specs. 

all of that could be achievable without cheapening the already existing bosses. That's the point. You wrote all that out and no one is saying the changes are bad. I am saying the effect on pve encounters is bad.  High dps on gorsevahl back in the day was like low 20k-ish. now its low 30k-ish. this is not a good thing unless the health of the bosses also go up. that's important to balance as well.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[otto.5684]

On 8/12/2022 at 8:28 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

if you dont think powercreep is real then you are either new or just not payint attention. 

Dps wise, specs have been parsing around the same range since PoF release, 7 years ago. If anything, support is what has been getting nerfed.

[Kuma.1503]

This patch wasn't powercreep. 

It was Anet giving back a little of what they took away. 

For some specs like reaper and holo, it's still a net nerf over where they were prior to the patch that removed unique buffs. 

Heal Scrapper and (axe) mirage actually got nerfed, neither of which needed it. 

Power Scrapper got some QoL and coefficient buffs to offset the unique buff removal, but it's still weaker than it was pre impact savant nerf. 

Staff Ele got some nice buffs, but I still doubt it will be anywhere near where it was when Staff Weaver was at its peak. Especially considering it was also hit hard by the unique buff removal, and it wasn't good even before that nerf. 

Anet realized they tweaked the knob down too far, and they're finally starting to tweak it upwards again where necessary. 

Once things start reaching levels higher than they were pre-nerf, cires about "powercreep" might have some merit. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

High dps on gorsevahl back in the day was like low 20k-ish. now its low 30k-ish.

Checking gorse stats on wingman does not support your claim. Most of the stats for all eras and recent patches is pretty much the same as in 2017, with the curious exception of chronomancers somewhere in 2020 that did manage to get over 30k barrier. In the recent patch logs, the highest numbers are for mechanists, that seem to peak just under 25k. In 2017 that would be weaver at slightly above 23k. Notice, that those are extreme cases though. When looking at averages, recent patch is 11k, all eras is ~10500 (highest is october 2021, at ~11.800). Notice also, that the wingman does not seem to offer statistics from the high-HoT eras, before pre-PoF nerf wave hit (and the log numbers from early days also seem to be extremely limited - the oldest patch era in database has only 6 gorse logs, for example - which makes them not really representative).

There does seem to be a slight increase in average dps over the years, but it's very small - much smaller than what you try to make it out to be. At the top however the situation remains pretty much unchanged, and the current patch balance is actually not the one from which the highest dps numbers come from.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 8/14/2022 at 7:04 AM, Hitlit.7630 said:

Einsof do you have a single post or comment that isn't complaining about how the game is too easy? Why are you even still here? Or do you just play forum warrior nowadays?

Good sir, we forum Warriors have standards. 

He does not represent us. 

 

[Guy.9207]

I'm just happy Guard Hammer got buffed.

[Karagee.6830]

On 8/13/2022 at 4:42 AM, Sunchaser.9854 said:

Tl;dr: The patch just buffed underperforming specs /abilities instead of nerfing mechanist. Players in the fourms were mainly going for 2 options. 1: Nerf mechanist or 2: Buff underperforming specs to be closer to it's level. People adamantly insisted on not nerfing mechanist. So they buffed underperforming specs. It's not power creep if they buffed the classes people thought 98% were to weak to be used.. A +20% mech buff on the other hand. 

Not sure what you have been reading. People have been adamant that mech should be nerfed to the ground. Including many engi mains.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Not sure what you have been reading. People have been adamant that mech should be nerfed to the ground. Including many engi mains.

If you see someone asking for any build to be nerfed to the ground, you can be sure they aren't thinking about balance.

[Voyant.1327]

3 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Not sure what you have been reading. People have been adamant that mech should be nerfed to the ground. Including many engi mains.

I think I've seen one or two people say not to nerf but literally endless forum/reddit threads on it with many people wanting nerfed.

Its another bad design move that just throws out buffs to make people happy instead of balancing. Feels almost desperate like "ok fine here's your power buffs, now everyone is overpowered happy?" Instead of "Mechanists no longer have fully automatic rifles" 

Gives off the vibe that the balance team is being stubborn on what they want instead of learning & improving it for the sake of all.

It will feel nice for a day or two to those playing the classes but ultimately the whole approach sets us further into imbalance & chaos. 

Regardless they'll be nerfing mesmers either way anyways, enjoy the buffs guys 😭

Edited August 16, 2022 by Voyant.1327

[Mell.4873]

Nothing they can do will keep people happy, it is obvious they balance the game off DPS and how often something is played. 

This is a horrible way to balance since if everyone follows the meta builds and it is always shifting then almost every class at some point will be nerfed.

Honestly though the nerfs and buffs are so minor and only effect the very high end builds. Reaper is still the same regardless of the changes, reworks of skills/classes are very rare. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Reaper is still the same regardless of the changes

If you think there's no difference between dps of 22k and 32k (which is about how Power Reaper benchmark fluctuated over the last years)...

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If you think there's no difference between dps of 22k and 32k (which is about how Power Reaper benchmark fluctuated over the last years)...

Yes but it plays the same regardless of damage numbers (I'm pretty sure its getting a buff soon too).

[Karagee.6830]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If you see someone not asking for a mechanist build to be nerfed to the ground, you can be sure they aren't thinking about balance

There, fixed it for you. Surely that's what you meant.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[draxynnic.3719]

Like other people have said, this patch isn't powercreep. It's mostly buffing weaker stuff and restoring some of what was taken away last month.

11 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Not sure what you have been reading. People have been adamant that mech should be nerfed to the ground. Including many engi mains.

Ironically, pre-EoD engi mains are probably the ones being affected most by mechanist dominance. Many of them never wanted a golem spec in the first place, but the fact that it's so strong means that it's hard for them to rock up on a build they do enjoy without being pressured to switch to a spec that they don't enjoy.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

There, fixed it for you. Surely that's what you meant.

 

Eh, if someone says 'nerfed into the ground' and it's not hyperbole for 'heavy nerfs', that's not asking for the spec to be balanced, that's asking for it to be removed from the game. A spec that is nerfed down to the level of everyone else hasn't been 'nerfed into the ground'.

[Karagee.6830]

8 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

I think I've seen one or two people say not to nerf but literally endless forum/reddit threads on it with many people wanting nerfed.

Its another bad design move that just throws out buffs to make people happy instead of balancing. Feels almost desperate like "ok fine here's your power buffs, now everyone is overpowered happy?" Instead of "Mechanists no longer have fully automatic rifles" 

Gives off the vibe that the balance team is being stubborn on what they want instead of learning & improving it for the sake of all.

It will feel nice for a day or two to those playing the classes but ultimately the whole approach sets us further into imbalance & chaos. 

Regardless they'll be nerfing mesmers either way anyways, enjoy the buffs guys 😭

Nah, it's just that these devs haven't got the faintest clue, so they are randomly shooting in the dark hoping they hit something. I think 60%-70% of these buffs are useless, 20-30% will improve actual viable builds and the remaining percentage will affect the meta. They made so many changes that something will stick and people will forget that 70% of this stuff is still complete unusable garbage, not least because it's not just coefficient but skill and trait designs that are at fault more often than not. At least they were smart not to apply this in spvp because if they mess up there, like they have done in pretty much every patch, they will have more PR nightmares on their hands.

[Karagee.6830]

18 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Eh, if someone says 'nerfed into the ground' and it's not hyperbole for 'heavy nerfs', that's not asking for the spec to be balanced, that's asking for it to be removed from the game. A spec that is nerfed down to the level of everyone else hasn't been 'nerfed into the ground'.

It depends where the starting point is. And since mechanist has the largest representation in raids ever seen (even compared to HoT when the elite specs were 9 and not 27) I'm pretty sure that nerfing to the ground and bringing down to the average level of other especs are completely interchangeable statements. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[draxynnic.3719]

42 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

It depends where the starting point is. And since mechanist has the largest representation in raids ever seen (even compared to HoT when the elite specs were 9 and not 27) I'm pretty sure that nerfing to the ground and bringing down to the average level of other especs are completely interchangeable statements. 

Taken at face value, it doesn't depend on the starting point at all. "Nerfing to the ground" is nerfing TO an absolute point - the ground. It doesn't matter if your starting point is the first floor, the thirty-fourth floor, or the International Space Station, if you're sent to the ground, you end up on the ground.

You're using hyperbole when you mean "this needs heavy nerfs to bring it down to a balanced level".

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

It depends where the starting point is. And since mechanist has the largest representation in raids ever seen (even compared to HoT when the elite specs were 9 and not 27) I'm pretty sure that nerfing to the ground and bringing down to the average level of other especs are completely interchangeable statements. 

No. Asking for something to be nerfed to the ground, while can be understandable when we're talking about an OP spec that currently dominates meta, has nothing to do with balance. Nor with bringing something to "average level" - ground is the bottom, not average. No matter the starting point, "nerfing to the ground" is just that, dropping a build straight down into oblivion. It's the "let's nuke it from orbit" approach. Which has the advantage of removing the issue, but then leaves us with a radioactive wasteland that will likely be even more problematic to deal with.

So, i'd rather see people asking for a proper balance, instead of heavy-handed measures based on pure emotions, and not actual well-thought considerations.

 

[LadyKitty.6120]

It's kinda interesting on how people keep on saying "Number changes are stupid, we need revamps and new design." while this incoming patch is essentially all about numbers changes and people are more hype about it than about other patches in a long time. Yes, some builds are clunky and selfish but people have been ready to play such builds as long as they do good enough numbers.

Meanwhile many weapons haven't seen any use simply because...numbers. Weapons mostly define the playstyles and useless weapon is a wasted playstyle as such so tweaking the numbers on weapon skills alone makes unused weapons more useful and since those tweaks don't affect other weapons, buffing the unused weapon skills doesn't contribute to powercreep if the boosts are less than what current optimal options do. Those buffs simply bring new alternative options.

Meanwhile doing revamps to traits and specs has that very danger as they also affect the meta weapons and as such not making the unused ones any more useful in comparison.

[Zaret.1450]

On 8/13/2022 at 1:45 AM, Einsof.1457 said:

If you're going to make almost everyone hit harder across the board, you should also buff enemies to maintain dare I say....balance. these sweeping power creep updates are making the game more and more dull to play. 99.9% of content is too easy already. 

think that open world enemies are already paper for most good dps builds, and condi builds are much better dps wise than power builds.

as of now necro, ele, rev, none of those on power build get over 36kdps if im not mistaken, at least in golem benches where the golem has normal size, while most condi builds get to 38 minimun to 40k, this patch works for underpowered builds and also nerfs some overpowered like spectre, mech, and similar.