Would have been better if eveyone died in the end?

[Fipmip.7219]

1 minute ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

You only get to start the thread, you don't get to dictate to any of us whether we get to participate or how exact we get to participate.  And since you had to be a childish kitten about it, I think I'll be sticking around.

you're the one being childish bud.

[Fipmip.7219]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Canach did not have a complete character arc by the end of Path of Fire. One could argue he was done after Season 3, and nobody really expected his return, but they created a second character arc which ended with him creating a casino. He was MIA for practically all of IBS because of this, and was a mere cameo in End of Dragons. And he ends End of Dragon with:

Canach: I've already delegated its day-to-day operations, and it's time for me to move on to my next venture.

<Character name>: Which is?

Canach: Ah-ah. Not ready for the big reveal yet. But when the time is right, you'll be the first to know.

Which is basically the writers stating "he'll only come back once we want to bring him back".

And Canach is a terrible example because as I've stated twice now, Canach is one of the characters which they create an "but may return" addendum.

Meanwhile you got Kasmeer, Taimi, Rox, and Logan. Logan ends End of Dragons with:

Logan Thackeray: By the way, I'm headed to Southsun as soon as the party's over.

Logan Thackeray: I'm looking forward to doing nothing more strenuous than locating the best local gimlet...

Logan Thackeray: Brimstone's invited to come along, but he hasn't answered my invitation.

Very literally saying "I'm retiring". He even said as much in Arborstone just before:

Logan: Well, like Dragon's Watch, the primary mission of the Pact is...ostensibly complete.

Logan: There'll be a meeting soon. We'll get all the leadership in one room and decide what's next.

Logan: While some people are eager to dissolve, others are not so sure the job is done.

Logan: Considering there is one Elder Dragon left.

Logan: Personally, I think it's also worth discussing how much the orders have been able to accomplish working together.

Logan: But if I say that out loud, pretty sure someone's going to accuse me of trying to hold on to power...

So he's basically saying he'll no doubt not be Pact Marshal unless there's high demand for him to be.

And let's look at Taimi, who says:

Taimi: But I didn't realize how much the little things were adding up. I've got more energy, I'm thinking more clearly...

Taimi: So, I'm not gonna rest until we find a way to keep the dragonjade charged.

Gorrik: Maybe a little bit of rest.

Taimi: Yes, yes... I don't actually mean NO rest. My midafternoon nap is nonnegotiable.

Taimi: But jade tech is my first, second, and third priority until we have a solution.

 

[In Dead End]

Taimi: Oh, it's so good to have an excuse to get everyone together! I've barely left Joon's lab since I saw you last.

<Character name>: How's that going? Have a long-term solution for Cantha's power needs?

Taimi: Not yet, but our experiments are going well. We've found ways to extend the life of current batteries.

Taimi: And Aurene was able to top everything off. We're getting close. I know we'll have something soon.

Taimi: But enough work talk! Let's enjoy the party. What do you think it's about? I've got a guess!

In other words, unless the future plot deals directly with jadetech continued existence, Taimi is not going to be returning until that plothook gets fixed off-screen.

And Rox? Well that's a no brainer.

Kasmeer meanwhile:

Lady Kasmeer Meade: Thank you. That title certainly feels...earned now.

Marjory Delaqua: The person it's attached to is what makes it impressive.

Lady Kasmeer Meade: Well, dealing with high-ranking people was intimidating. I'd worry, "Am I worth of their time?"

Lady Kasmeer Meade: But as I got the hang of things, I started realizing that not all of them were worthy of mine.

Lady Kasmeer Meade: Made all the difference. It's worth figuring out who should take up space in your life.

She might have held the position of Ambassador since Path of Fire, which is why she was off-screen when the main plot isn't politics, but she outright states that she's finally gotten accustomed to the job. From Season 1 to Season 3, Kasmeer wasn't an Ambassador. Which is why the earlier claim of "oh that's what they do when they're not adventuring" is silly. They began as adventurers with us, and now they're finding new jobs which they've slowly grown into - all of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch.

Your repeated example of Canach is the most likely individual to return, which I've said will happen.

They become distant because they're finding a position in society. If you are aware of their origin stories, why they joined the Commander in fighting Scarlet in Season 1, then you'd be well aware that the only one of them who had a stable lifestyle was Marjory.

Logan? Pushed to go fight the Elder Dragons by Jennah. Now his task is finished and he's retiring to Southsun, injured.

Rytlock? Hates officework and was able to escape into adventuring. Now the Legions are in so much disarray and his Imperator doesn't hate his guts, so he can't escape.

Kasmeer? Her family was thrown out of nobility and she was trying to make ends meet. Now she's regained her title and has an official court position.

Taimi? Began as a student running away from schoolwork, and is now a respected scientist in her fields, with an ever growing disease that hinders her adventuring capabilities.

Marjory? Put her life on hold to help Kasmeer and the Commander and come to terms with Belinda's death, now she no longer has to and has come to terms.

Caithe? Began as a wayward fighting the Elder Dragons, and now spends her life serving Aurene as leader of the Crystal Bloom.

Canach? Rogue who harmed people as he fought for his twisted view of justice, now he's doing good by economical means rather than violent ones after making winnings through the Commander.

Braham? Began as someone trying to get away from his disappointing (and now retconned) love life, and now suffers from PTSD that keeps him from fighting.

Zojja? Coma.

 

They're distant because they are no longer adventurers. They all have new duties that they didn't at the beginning half of the story.

The fact you don't realize this and think that "Taimi and Braham are practically the same" shows that you're not paying attention. It has nothing to do with the number of characters - it has to do with the fact that the characters have grown - the new characters got added because the story needed new adventurers because the old ones have grown into non-adventuring jobs.

mate, you're just listing story beats as for what characters might do in the future. If anet want to say they're all retired using this, they can. but they can just as easily take it in the complete other direction if they want to. Hence I'm saying it's vague. They can easily gloss over how braham is supposedly lame "Well i did some soul searching with the spirits and got over it." they can easily gloss over how taimi decided to work on jade tech "Yeah we got the jade working with leyline magic huzzah." They're pretty similar in that regard. Taimi sticking around despite being a prized student and rytlock sticking around despite being a legion captain are pure examples of characters with other roles but putting them aside for the good of the dragon conflict. There is nothing stopping anet from doing this with every other character. nothing except the effort it would take to keep them all relevant which is the problem im bringing up. so the only other solution is turn these once prominent characters into these distant side characters despite the fact the story wasnt over. which is unsatisfying to me.

 

Perhaps if they decided to set the next story step as being years or even a decade or two into the future, in which every character has grown distant over the course of years of peace, I'd be happy with that.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

mate, you're just listing story beats as for what characters might do in the future.

Which are all "I'm done adventuring, cya Commander".

[Kalavier.1097]

On 8/14/2022 at 1:45 PM, Infinity.2876 said:

I was thinking that instead of killing off them maybe they just don't trust you because you have god-like powers now.

The commander doesn't have god-like powers now though.

On 8/14/2022 at 6:02 PM, Fipmip.7219 said:

Why have a sad ending? why kill characters? why not? it's down to personal preference. I, personally, do not like why the story is messy and the characters come and go and seemingly have better things to do than save the world. Why was Logan, the leader of the pact, the force designed around dealing with dragons, so uninvolved until the very end? Why keep are half the members of dragons watch, the guild focussed around dealing with dragons, not involved until the very end? From what I've heard, it involved voice acting scheduling problems or something. That's fine, but it brings me back to my point about having this kaleidoscope of  characters that are set up to be the main focus of the conflict, but instead become this unsatisfying mess.  like i said, it would be fine if they literally retired in a satisfying way like master oogway does, but they don't, and anet keeps treating them like marks on the board to say they were involved at all.

All these answers... are explained/obvious in EoD? Until the last Act, EoD wasn't about killing an elder dragon.

Logan: Wasn't there because there wasn't something for the Pact to deploy against + the political issue of having a fleet/army just SHOW UP IN Cantha suddenly without warning right after the borders open.

Braham is recovering still. Rytlock is busy with paperwork and rebuilding the legions. EoD literally starts off with these bits of information before the events kick off.

Nothing about EoD set up Braham, Logan, or Rytlock to be major characters. Infact it literally did the opposite and had the story be more focused on Marjory, Gorrik, and the Commander.

 

Until the very end of EoD it wasn't a "Save the world situation" which is when people rallied. Tyria is not a small place. Sometimes people can't just get up and go halfway across the continent just because something happens.

"Why have a sad ending? why not." because not everybody enjoys the idea of following a story and characters to the end and then seeing everything die and their efforts for nothing? This isn't some grimdark setting. Hell, even Warhammer fantasy did that and everybody hated the End Times for just killing everybody.

On 8/14/2022 at 6:02 PM, Fipmip.7219 said:

The thing is, is that characters are just ideas. I dont know why people need some sort of huge reason for killing a character. They are story elements, and they should be kept as disposable. We, as humans, have limitless capacity for the process of building up new characters, and then moving on to the next one. as long as they're good characters. But anet refuses to move on, because like i said they keep coming back in an unsatisfying way. So why should I move on? I want them to actually be involved, or just end.

Because around here the answer to "I slightly don't like how this character acts/talks/looks." has ended up being "EXECUTE THEM NOW" instead of any sort of rational improvement or reasonable method to remove the character from the story.

"I want them to be involved or end" is exactly the type of reaction. there is no "Okay so we are doing this arc in Ascalon, therefore the character in Maguuma jungle isn't involved." You may mean retire, but so many just think the only option is death.

 

On 8/14/2022 at 6:02 PM, Fipmip.7219 said:

Why was trahearne killed? why was tybalt killed? Its a great way of propping up a story. Yes, I say propping up because really how else could you salvage it at this point? Maybe if GW2's characters were good, complex ones, I wouldn't be asking for it. I certainly didn't want tyrion lannister to die. But i still accepted it could happen, because it keeps the story grounded and you get invested for the remaining characters. In my original post, I said EoD would have been a great opportunity to wipe the slate clean and start some new characters. I'm ready for a new group of maybe just 2 or 3 dudes that stick around. Like chief and cortana. or jak and daxter. or ratchet and clank.

And your example of a story is Game of Thrones, the setting that is known by some as "Don't bother to actually care for anybody because so many people die." 😛

And TBH, I'd say you "How else can you salvage this because GW2 characters aren't good or complex" is a bit of a personal opinion. Or at the very least comparing an MMO character to a very famous book series character is a little bit of a unfair comparison?

Wiping the slate clean by killing everybody, or most characters isn't that great an option unless you are doing some sort of reset, like a WoW cataclysm level "Redo the entire world." or a time skip/shift. Kill everybody, and you are left with nothing. Nothing to build the future with, nothing to keep players around. All those that disliked characters may cheer, or be sad because they weren't fixed (or the death didn't satisfy them). Those that liked the characters would probably not be fans.

And frankly we've had the "2 or 3 dudes" who stuck around with Dragon's Watch for a while now, who are reasonable slowing down to do other things as the dragon threat is dealt with.

[cyberzombie.7348]

While I do enjoy games with a grim settings like the Armored Core series, Fallout, and World of Horror; and while yes, the game's plotline has its chunk of cheese. Killing off the whole main cast ain't a better option. If anything, it would just be a blatant out-of-the-*rse move to cater to the edgy fanservice.

 

Hell it barely makes killing thousands of npcs carry any weight outside of exp gain and achievements. So why would replacing the  whole main cast by killing them off add more value to the plot when there are at least several more  productive options?

Edited August 17, 2022 by cyberzombie.7348

[Fipmip.7219]

14 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Which are all "I'm done adventuring, cya Commander".

I mean, we've been over this point multiple times at this point. just go ahead and read what I've written already for my response.
 

11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

All these answers... are explained/obvious in EoD? Until the last Act, EoD wasn't about killing an elder dragon.

Logan: Wasn't there because there wasn't something for the Pact to deploy against + the political issue of having a fleet/army just SHOW UP IN Cantha suddenly without warning right after the borders open.

Braham is recovering still. Rytlock is busy with paperwork and rebuilding the legions. EoD literally starts off with these bits of information before the events kick off.

Nothing about EoD set up Braham, Logan, or Rytlock to be major characters. Infact it literally did the opposite and had the story be more focused on Marjory, Gorrik, and the Commander.

Again, we've covered this already.

 

No one is ever "set up" to take part in whatever the next part of the story is. it's just whoever the devs like and whoever seems to fit. Why was marjory there? well she is of canthan descent, so lets have her. And lets take kasmeer too because they're a pair, and we'll make her an ambassador now. And of course we'll take taimi, because we always take taimi. and we'll take gorrick for some reason (related to taimi perhaps? and we'll write some stuff to put him with ankka too). The story is made up as it goes along. there are no grand plans here. You're pointing out the excuses when you should be looking at the bigger picture. these characters are left out because it's too much work to put them in. not because they are set up through grand overarching plans to leave them out for extremely cool and interesting reasons.

Let me ask you this. are you satisfied with the way the player character is set up to have a main party, but then never does anything coherent with them? I am not, and we frequently see threads from people that also dont. so, how would you solve this? Getting rid of them one way or another is obvious. My solution: well i didnt really like most of them anyway so lets have a phyrric victory where they mostly die. Alright, a little harsh. perhaps theres a silent majority of people that actually like taimi. maybe there a marjory and kasmeer crowd that love watching them bickering. So, what's the alternative?

I think we're arriving to the crux of the argument here. If anet never uses these supposedly "wrapped up" characters again except as just old friends we meet from time to time, then fine, problem solved. But I think they will, and so with basically every main character relagated to being a side character, its not going to the cohesive cast I'm looking for. Well, at least we'll always have taimi, said no one ever.

[EdwinLi.1284]

On 8/15/2022 at 6:54 AM, Tsakhi.8124 said:

For some reason, this brought back Persona 3 flashbacks.

The reason for this is because:

  Hide contents

The main character dies in Aigis' arms. The end. He doesn't come back; he became the seal that blocked the human desire to be freed by antipathic bliss that was promised by Nyx.

This made me wonder what would happen if the same thing happened to the Commander: That little by little they would fade, their lives slipping away, and depending on how they treated others, they'd either be remembered fondly...or not at all.

I can't say this will have to same impact for the Commander because there is still a on going story for the P3 Protagonist in the Post-P3 storyline that started during Persona 4 Arena which is Elizabeth's journey and find a permanent solution to the issue. However, this is a side story in Persona series now so how this story progress is more up to the Persona series writers. 

 

However, in GW2 our character is kind of split between two characters being the Commander and the Adventurer.

 

We see this story split in multiple parts of GW2 story but normally between the Meta and Main Story events since while the Commander is going through his/her events in the story quests, we then see events unfold on the other side of that point in the story through the Meta events from the perspective of the Adventurer. Thus it is possible for Anet to kill off the Commander since they have another character our character represents being the Adventurer but maybe a bit difficult to address the part that the Commander and Adventurer looks like each other.

Edited August 17, 2022 by EdwinLi.1284

[The Greyhawk.9107]

1 hour ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I can't say this will have to same impact for the Commander because there is still a on going story for the P3 Protagonist in the Post-P3 storyline that started during Persona 4 Arena which is Elizabeth's journey and find a permanent solution to the issue. However, this is a side story in Persona series now so how this story progress is more up to the Persona series writers. 

 

However, in GW2 our character is kind of split between two characters being the Commander and the Adventurer.

 

We see this story split in multiple parts of GW2 story but normally between the Meta and Main Story events since while the Commander is going through his/her events in the story quests, we then see events unfold on the other side of that point in the story through the Meta events from the perspective of the Adventurer. Thus it is possible for Anet to kill off the Commander since they have another character our character represents being the Adventurer but maybe a bit difficult to address the part that the Commander and Adventurer looks like each other.

 I don't think this works, I think the division between the Commander and the Adventurer is far, far to vague of a concept to bank on narratively and much too much of a risk if not enough of the player base are even aware of this separation.  A ton of OW events and metas go out of their way to still call the player "the Commander" which really blurs the line and again makes it really likely that a lot of people are unaware of this concept.  If Anet tries to inform people of this separation just to make use of the second "character" I could see that really turning people off and even pissing many off.

[EdwinLi.1284]

8 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

 I don't think this works, I think the division between the Commander and the Adventurer is far, far to vague of a concept to bank on narratively and much too much of a risk if not enough of the player base are even aware of this separation.  A ton of OW events and metas go out of their way to still call the player "the Commander" which really blurs the line and again makes it really likely that a lot of people are unaware of this concept.  If Anet tries to inform people of this separation just to make use of the second "character" I could see that really turning people off and even pissing many off.

Which is partly why I said it will be difficult to explain the part when the Commander and Adventurer look just like each other.

 

Anet has setup the Adventurer story since Core GW2 but hardly touched on that story in the Main Storyline beyond just being the other character that our character represent that does the things the Commander does not do since the Commander is busy with what is happening in their Main Story.

 

Not to mention the other issue about how the Adventurer is also called the Commander as well to represent that the Pact had other Commanders leading the charge, clearing the way for the Commander before the Commander arrived, or taking part in certain events while the Commander was dealing with his/her own issues in their Main Storyline. Not as famous our the Commander but still a part of the bigger picture for events.

 

It is a aspect of GW2 story that is far too, the best way I can describe it, outside to be mentioned now in Main Storyline anyways to a point most players, old and new, will be far too confused if they never noticed this detail when going through GW2 from Core to current GW2 story. 

 

Though I always assume this aspect of the story exists is mostly so players can use the Adventure as another character that they can mold more to their own desires/interests or atleast provide a reason why X and Y events can be experienced despite taking place during Z Main Story events since the Commander is a character with a already fixed personality and trait dealing with their own events. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by EdwinLi.1284

[stormemperor.3745]

I don't know man, could have killed taimi early on and rolled through the mists with balthazar. Slap blish and Brahammom somewhere and we got a good Rytlogan combo to deal with all this shet.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

I'd really enjoy if the next expansion focused on the Commander, especially in cinematics and cutscenes. It's always struck me as weird how we'll see almost everyone else interacting with the villain but never the Commander (and the camera is almost never in a good spot to handwave it as "we're looking through the Commander's eyes).

Plus, Exp4 should definitely focus on the Commander. He's basically the last living Dragon Champion and we should see how the world is recovering from everything:

• Sons of Svanir - Lost their Elder Dragon deity; were they largely culled during the Inter-Legion wars (after being subsumed by the Frost Legion) or are they still around in places?
• Charr Legions - Over half(?) of the Charr rebelled and joined the Dominion. How are the prisoners (and Bangaar) handling the death of Jormag? Did many reintegrate? Did many of them die off?
• Dwarves - Their whole reason for being was to fight Primordus into the depths. Did they all die off? Will they be returning to the surface? How will they interact with Aurene now that she's the Prismatic Elder Dragon?
• Asura - Similar to Dwarves, will they return to the depths?
•  

[Kalavier.1097]

10 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Which is partly why I said it will be difficult to explain the part when the Commander and Adventurer look just like each other.

There is no split here like you imply. The only confirmed "Alt character" is the Raiders, who are explicitly a separate group from Commander and teams. Yes, a player can do the raids and get a little extra dialogue from Squad leader Bennett, but it's not part of the story and as I recall, explicitly stated to have happened anyway.

10 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Anet has setup the Adventurer story since Core GW2 but hardly touched on that story in the Main Storyline beyond just being the other character that our character represent that does the things the Commander does not do since the Commander is busy with what is happening in their Main Story.

No, the open world has always been, in a story sense, the Commander doing things between the instanced story events. This is very clear after PS, with entire sections of episodes or expansion story being outside of the instanced zones.

10 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Not to mention the other issue about how the Adventurer is also called the Commander as well to represent that the Pact had other Commanders leading the charge, clearing the way for the Commander before the Commander arrived, or taking part in certain events while the Commander was dealing with his/her own issues in their Main Storyline. Not as famous our the Commander but still a part of the bigger picture for events.

Again, misreading the details. When you play, you are "The commander". Everybody else is random adventurer/order member/local person, if you want to think of things of the world through the lens of the commander.

Only in a few areas does it really cause issues, mainly dragon's stand, Dragonfall pretty much. Both of which are nebulous on how often they "happen". The former can be seen as happening a singular time, or 3 (I personally go to a singular time in canon because it's the most sensible), while the other it's unknown because You have the events on the world, then go underground to finish Kralk which also has them attack/bombard his body.

Hell, there is a bit of EoD where the PC openly recalls events of the Fractals, commenting how Dessa should've seen the real Jade Maw.

10 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

It is a aspect of GW2 story that is far too, the best way I can describe it, outside to be mentioned now in Main Storyline anyways to a point most players, old and new, will be far too confused if they never noticed this detail when going through GW2 from Core to current GW2 story.

It's not really that confusing or detailed.

10 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Though I always assume this aspect of the story exists is mostly so players can use the Adventure as another character that they can mold more to their own desires/interests or atleast provide a reason why X and Y events can be experienced despite taking place during Z Main Story events since the Commander is a character with a already fixed personality and trait dealing with their own events. 

As said, the open world events are still "The commander."

Nothing stops people from imagining their own personalities or desires. My entire roster is built off the idea of NONE of them being the commander.

[EdwinLi.1284]

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

There is no split here like you imply. The only confirmed "Alt character" is the Raiders, who are explicitly a separate group from Commander and teams. Yes, a player can do the raids and get a little extra dialogue from Squad leader Bennett, but it's not part of the story and as I recall, explicitly stated to have happened anyway.

 

No, the open world has always been, in a story sense, the Commander doing things between the instanced story events. This is very clear after PS, with entire sections of episodes or expansion story being outside of the instanced zones.

 

Again, misreading the details. When you play, you are "The commander". Everybody else is random adventurer/order member/local person, if you want to think of things of the world through the lens of the commander.

 

Only in a few areas does it really cause issues, mainly dragon's stand, Dragonfall pretty much. Both of which are nebulous on how often they "happen". The former can be seen as happening a singular time, or 3 (I personally go to a singular time in canon because it's the most sensible), while the other it's unknown because You have the events on the world, then go underground to finish Kralk which also has them attack/bombard his body.

 

Hell, there is a bit of EoD where the PC openly recalls events of the Fractals, commenting how Dessa should've seen the real Jade Maw.

 

 

As said, the open world events are still "The commander."

Nothing stops people from imagining their own personalities or desires. My entire roster is built off the idea of NONE of them being the commander.

 

Sorry for the confusion. My description was not clear on what I am talking about. 

I am not refering to all events in the Open World to be the Adventurer's point of view. Only the ones that is specifically design to happen at the sametime as the Main Story event the Commander is doing or happen regardless of the Commander being there or not. Events such as Dragon's Stand and Dragonfall, along with Raid storyline, are the side of the Adventurer's perspective since they are meant to be happening at the sametime as events of the main story where the Commander is dealing with the Main Story events or completely separate from the Commander's story but still happen no matter what.

Dizzlewood Coast is another example since that Meta is meant to takes place at the sametime as the Commander is entering the Fortress through the Backdoor to cover events of the Front door assault.

I know majority of Open World events is from the Commander's perspective and what he/she does between the Main Story events. However, not all of them are meant to be the Commander but the Adventurer instead when they need someone to act as the person who our character is seeing the other side of events as during Meta events like Dragon's Stand and Dragonfall that are meant to happen at the sametime as Z moment in Main Storyline.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by EdwinLi.1284

[HotDelirium.7984]

End character arc's can include a death but death as the main way to do this lacks vision. We do need a bit more payoff with ending certain plot threads from the impacts of certain actions and events. Many characters got some such as the hints of Logan gettin seriously hurt and him retiring from that kind of direct combat life, Jory and Kaz getting married, Taimi's recommitment to self-care, Rytlock and Crecia possible getting back together, Canach going from poor hired help to casino mogul etc. Killing all of them before that or even after would be a bit cheap right now. We can change focus to other characters without undue death.

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:31 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

The commander doesn't have god-like powers now though.

All these answers... are explained/obvious in EoD? Until the last Act, EoD wasn't about killing an elder dragon.

Logan: Wasn't there because there wasn't something for the Pact to deploy against + the political issue of having a fleet/army just SHOW UP IN Cantha suddenly without warning right after the borders open.

Braham is recovering still. Rytlock is busy with paperwork and rebuilding the legions. EoD literally starts off with these bits of information before the events kick off.

Nothing about EoD set up Braham, Logan, or Rytlock to be major characters. Infact it literally did the opposite and had the story be more focused on Marjory, Gorrik, and the Commander.

 

Until the very end of EoD it wasn't a "Save the world situation" which is when people rallied. Tyria is not a small place. Sometimes people can't just get up and go halfway across the continent just because something happens.

"Why have a sad ending? why not." because not everybody enjoys the idea of following a story and characters to the end and then seeing everything die and their efforts for nothing? This isn't some grimdark setting. Hell, even Warhammer fantasy did that and everybody hated the End Times for just killing everybody.

Because around here the answer to "I slightly don't like how this character acts/talks/looks." has ended up being "EXECUTE THEM NOW" instead of any sort of rational improvement or reasonable method to remove the character from the story.

"I want them to be involved or end" is exactly the type of reaction. there is no "Okay so we are doing this arc in Ascalon, therefore the character in Maguuma jungle isn't involved." You may mean retire, but so many just think the only option is death.

 

And your example of a story is Game of Thrones, the setting that is known by some as "Don't bother to actually care for anybody because so many people die." 😛

And TBH, I'd say you "How else can you salvage this because GW2 characters aren't good or complex" is a bit of a personal opinion. Or at the very least comparing an MMO character to a very famous book series character is a little bit of a unfair comparison?

Wiping the slate clean by killing everybody, or most characters isn't that great an option unless you are doing some sort of reset, like a WoW cataclysm level "Redo the entire world." or a time skip/shift. Kill everybody, and you are left with nothing. Nothing to build the future with, nothing to keep players around. All those that disliked characters may cheer, or be sad because they weren't fixed (or the death didn't satisfy them). Those that liked the characters would probably not be fans.

And frankly we've had the "2 or 3 dudes" who stuck around with Dragon's Watch for a while now, who are reasonable slowing down to do other things as the dragon threat is dealt with.

I like how you touch on scale. Scale is a very important device when it comes to plot arcs because if every time a big baddie shows up we all just rally with the power of friendship to defeat it can come off a bit rote. Having certain events be none of some characters business/jurisdiction/awareness/concern/priorities etc is where more thrilling storytelling can take place without too many deux ex machina friendship rally endings.

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

Why do you want everyone to die? 

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

On 8/16/2022 at 4:25 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Zojja? Coma.

No.

 

You of all people should know that the dialogue regarding her state in LWS3E1 is hearsay and not reliable in any way. C'mon, you're better than this. 😕

[The Greyhawk.9107]

57 minutes ago, TheOrlyFactor.8341 said:

No.

 

You of all people should know that the dialogue regarding her state in LWS3E1 is hearsay and not reliable in any way. C'mon, you're better than this. 😕

This hearsay as you call it is literally the only information we have gotten  on Zojja's condition since HoT came out almost seven years from now.  Until ArenaNet finally bothers to give us an update on Zojja, assuming she's not in a coma or some form of vegetative state is strictly head canon.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

14 hours ago, TheOrlyFactor.8341 said:

No.

 

You of all people should know that the dialogue regarding her state in LWS3E1 is hearsay and not reliable in any way. C'mon, you're better than this. 😕

Yes, I am better than that.

Because I know that the hearsay dialogue in LWS3E1 states that Zojja is drooling like an idiot - which would not be in a coma, but being catatonic (visually similar conditions, but one is unconscious and the other is conscious so very different situations). However, Rytlock in that same episode said that both Logan and Zojja were still incapacitated (during Eir's Memorial), and IIRC Logan says that Zojja is still recovering in LWS3E4 - with no indication that she was awake during such times. There were also reddit comments by devs saying that Zojja was affected worse because Mordremoth targeted their strengths - Logan's body, and Zojja's mind - which would suggest comatose (or worse, the hearsay catatonic state).

 

Though there is the implication in End of Dragon that Zojja is simply missing, as Taimi says "wherever Zojja is" in the first story step. But as it's just an implication of a third party who's been very busy, I left that out of the confirmed listing.

[Kalavier.1097]

33 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

This hearsay as you call it is literally the only information we have gotten  on Zojja's condition since HoT came out almost seven years from now.  Until ArenaNet finally bothers to give us an update on Zojja, assuming she's not in a coma or some form of vegetative state is strictly head canon.

I always took her to be coma to simply not at "asura" standards of intelligence activity or such. Or just simply not all there at the moment of the rumor (IIRC they describe her as addled?)

But yeah. The only things we know is Zojja came back from Maguuma jungle and she hasn't been the same, and likely is in some sort of care house because she seems unable to properly care for herself.

16 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I am not refering to all events in the Open World to be the Adventurer's point of view. Only the ones that is specifically design to happen at the sametime as the Main Story event the Commander is doing or happen regardless of the Commander being there or not. Events such as Dragon's Stand and Dragonfall, along with Raid storyline, are the side of the Adventurer's perspective since they are meant to be happening at the sametime as events of the main story where the Commander is dealing with the Main Story events or completely separate from the Commander's story but still happen no matter what.
 

Dizzlewood Coast is another example since that Meta is meant to takes place at the sametime as the Commander is entering the Fortress through the Backdoor to cover events of the Front door assault.

Fair enough, though this is a problem that is very very limited in scope?

Dragon's Stand, Dragonfall, and Drizzlewood are the only cases.

The raid storyline explicitly has been stated to be a split group of raiders (Infact you can see npcs in LA aerodome and Arborstone based off the devs who are like players in gear and all) that happens outside of the commander's story.

 

Dragon's stand is ? as you can read it as happening once when the Commander did story instance, or three times, one before, one during, one after. I personally stand at once, unless we only view the "repeated" part as being the final fight and not the lanes.

Dragonfall is also ? Though it's more implied it happened once in open world and then again when Commander goes into instance I think, being how in meta he cocoons, but in instance they bombard his body and "kill" it. Is kinda hard to nail down exactly.

Drizzlewood is maybe not a case of this, IMO. because Efram is present in both instances, going up through the entire fortress, but also coming back in by heli to help the commander which isn't mentioned in the meta. At end of meta he is outside of the fortress safely with the rest, though in instance he comes back in. It could be happening at the same time (with the comments on the place collapsing being when they break the conversion machine?) and Eframe catches a heli in back after the claw is defeated?

[Logos.3042]

I could see the cycle ending and the commander failing, and the next expat going into the mists

[Jshadow.8379]

If Zojja really is a vegetable (or rather her voice actor quit and that's the reason why she's been absent for 7 years), now that we're in Chanta, wouldn't it be easier to bring her back since they apparently have such advanced tech that it's able to suppress Taimi's health decline? And it's a good excuse to get another voice actress.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Jshadow.8379

[Kalavier.1097]

4 minutes ago, Jshadow.8379 said:

If Zojja really is a vegetable (or rather her voice actor quit and that's the reason why she's been absent for 7 years), now that we're in Chanta, wouldn't it be easier to bring her back since they apparently have such advanced tech that it's able to suppress Taimi's health decline? And it's a good excuse to get another voice actress.

It's not that it's suppressing her health decline but it's helping her with pain, and because she's in less pain she's sleeping better and more productive.

[Jshadow.8379]

31 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

It's not that it's suppressing her health decline but it's helping her with pain, and because she's in less pain she's sleeping better and more productive.

Well, my point still stands. If there's any reason to bring Zojja back, NOW would be a perfect time.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 hours ago, Jshadow.8379 said:

If Zojja really is a vegetable (or rather her voice actor quit and that's the reason why she's been absent for 7 years), now that we're in Chanta, wouldn't it be easier to bring her back since they apparently have such advanced tech that it's able to suppress Taimi's health decline? And it's a good excuse to get another voice actress.

EoD does have a line that hints that Zojja is up and about (or at least not where she should be as a comatose patient) when Taimi says "and wherever Zojja is" in the beginning.

If the issue was just the VA, they could have swapped her out like they did for Rox, Canach, charr male PC, charr female PC, Almorra, Smodur, and a dozen other NPCs over the years.