October 4 Balance Update Preview

[Vandal.5621]

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

then basically removed the elite Scrappers get from the game

Only in WvW. It will still be good in PvP and Fractals.

Scrapper is doing just fine in PvE.

[Jski.6180]

2 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said:

Only in WvW. It will still be good in PvP and Fractals.

Scrapper is doing just fine in PvE.

This update was all about pve at least for the scraper player base complaining.

[iDominatedU.8751]

19 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Hi everyone, back with a quick update:

 

Since the preview we've seen a lot of feedback around the proposed change to convert Scrapper gyros into ground-targeted stationary spells. The main concern we've seen is that this change would remove the unique feeling of the skills without replacing it with something new.

We agree – we'll be reverting the proposed changes and will be making a different set of adjustments to Purge and Sneak Gyro for WvW:

• Sneak Gyro: Reduced stealth duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in WvW only. Reduced number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only. This skill is no longer a smoke field in WvW only. This skill now plays a visual indicator to enemies on activation.
• Purge Gyro: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in WvW only.

 

For clarification, we'll still be changing Defense Field into a ground-targeted skill in the October 4 update.

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

As always, thanks to everyone who gave feedback on the upcoming changes; we really appreciate it.

 

Cal "cmc" Cohen

Skills and Balance Lead

Hello!

I'd like to put in my bit of input or suggestion here.

Have you all considered making On-Self Gyros a Trait that would need to be selected? What if it were a Major Master or Grandmaster trait that would need to be chosen (with a clear drawback of not being able to have the other trait in that line) to have it, and have the base Scrapper Gyros be ground-targetable? Or vice versa, having base Gyros be On-self, and the trait being Ground Targetable with a clear benefit as to why you'd choose ground targetable Gyros.

For example: Reworking or merging a Trait such as Expert Examination or Applied Force into one that grants you on-self Gyros.

OR

Merging or Reworking Kinetic Accelerators to also add the effect of Ground Targetable Gyros.

I don't know if anyone has ever considered it but from my perspective, doing that would give players the option of choice with clear drawbacks and benefits between Mobile Gyros and Stationary Gyros!

Perhaps you could consider this the next time you take a look at how Gyros should function on Scrapper in the future?

That's all for now!

[BATMAN.6794]

So many people whining and crying over stealth gryo, it's literally still going to be better than any other stealth for zerging, stop and aim your focus at the real thing no 1 is talking about, DEFENSE FIELD being GROUND TARGETED... make them revert that back to it's original state or you're going to regret it.

[Vandal.5621]

16 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

This update was all about pve at least for the scraper player base complaining.

The guy was complaining about the Stealth Gyro nerf, though. Which is only in WvW. Stealth Gyro will remain strong AF in PvP, and will still generally be ignored for Mortar Kit in PvE (minus Fractal skips).

[Eponet.4829]

15 hours ago, BluJasmine.2190 said:

Ummm...isn't the purpose of stealth to be idk invisible??? If you make this skill that provides stealth have a visual indicator, you need to then make any skill that provides stealth in wvw also have a visual indicator (I'm looking at you, thief, mesmer, and ranger.). 

 

I mean, I've never seen a thief complaining that Shadow Refuge had a visual indicator. It still makes you invisible and untargettable. It just gives a vague idea. The real issue isn't the indicator, it's just that 3 seconds total for an elite skill just isn't great in general.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Eponet.4829

[Xephir.7635]

Stealth Gyro being nerfed like this means all wvw squads will want a scrapper per party. This is a huge thing that will make other classes see less play even when scrapper is the top support spec in wvw. They should just have made the wells less mobile and be done with it, thats the real way to nerf scrapper.

[Jski.6180]

29 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said:

The guy was complaining about the Stealth Gyro nerf, though. Which is only in WvW. Stealth Gyro will remain strong AF in PvP, and will still generally be ignored for Mortar Kit in PvE (minus Fractal skips).

The player base of pve went crazy over gyro being ground targeted more so then the player base of wvw and spvp. The stealth gyro is nothing more then an victim of this want for pve and destroyed it for wvw the only place it was used a lot.

The joke is that this update is more about wvw and spvp then pve but its pve that seems to be still driving the dev chose. That the problem here. Gyro should have there full effect and be fields but NEED to be ground trated (you can even add in an way to detonate there well or pick it up for lower cd if you must have an scraper only effect) but now we have sub par ability for the pve players base to be easy to use. Scraper is now an kit only elite spec and not its own spec.

[Doggie.3184]

20 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Hi everyone, back with a quick update:

 

Since the preview we've seen a lot of feedback around the proposed change to convert Scrapper gyros into ground-targeted stationary spells. The main concern we've seen is that this change would remove the unique feeling of the skills without replacing it with something new.

We agree – we'll be reverting the proposed changes and will be making a different set of adjustments to Purge and Sneak Gyro for WvW:

• Sneak Gyro: Reduced stealth duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in WvW only. Reduced number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only. This skill is no longer a smoke field in WvW only. This skill now plays a visual indicator to enemies on activation.
• Purge Gyro: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in WvW only.

 

For clarification, we'll still be changing Defense Field into a ground-targeted skill in the October 4 update.

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

As always, thanks to everyone who gave feedback on the upcoming changes; we really appreciate it.

 

Cal "cmc" Cohen

Skills and Balance Lead

You know, that Ranged Well idea would work much better on Specter. People have requested making them ground target cast but then flip over to an optional shadowstep into the Well if we chose to do so. Since Specter is... a ranged Spec. Scrapper is a melee spec so it makes sense that they cast it on themselves.

[posthumecaver.6473]

On 9/27/2022 at 12:09 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

The gyro change isn't the only nerf in this patch. Elixir gun and med kit are taking yet another hit (rip core engi) along with medical dispersion field. If we also toned down sneak gyro, that shaves down their cleansing and their utility. If we also reduced med blaster's base heal amount further, now we are cooking with gas, especially when paired with a change to druid that I will list below. 

Scrapper will still be good, but this along with buffs to the other supports should help branch out the meta without the need to impliment a change that nerfs it in PvP/PvE. Two game modes where it is already balanced and not in need of more unnecessary nerfs. 

 

These changes will allow it to compete with heal scrapper in WvW and compete with HAM in PvE. You bring it for auras, projectile hate, and stability. Unfortunately, here is where Firebrand starts to step on it's toes, but once firebrand is shaved down as well Tempest can start to shine as an additional source of stability with Hamonious Conduit, or a source of sustained cleansing with Tempestuous Aria + Soldier Rune + Smothering Auras. They can also grant 5 people 5-8 seconds of shocking Aura and superspeed with Eye of the Storm (depending on trait tuning) which can make them very formidable when pushing on the frontline, and can help you to eat through the massive stacks of stab the enemy zerg has. 

All three traits in the middle column now come with meaningful trade-offs that shine in different scenarios. 

rrior in PvP/PvE. 

That would be awesome, I could play my freah air tempest as DPS and distribute stab and shocking aura every 6s 🙂

[Kadj.6725]

21 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

Any chance of making chronomancer wells fun or useful? If you agree that ground targetted gyros wouldn't be enjoyable, you'd agree that chrono wells have fallen significantly behind and have been hit a little too hard, right?

[Jeknar.6184]

12 hours ago, SolarDragon.7063 said:

So, I'm really happy to see gyros staying character-centric, they were originally ground skills when they first came out and that got changed because it was unfun in basically every mode. However, Defense Field moving to ground targeted is bad for WvW. Scrapper is so central to WvW because it's one of the few class kits that can actually protect a small but organised group from the haze of ranged damage of large, unorganised groups well enough to make engagement possible. Making even just Defense Field ground targeted is reducing this, which means we'll just see more dominance of "throw server queue at stuff" play and less of the actual give-and-take fights that are key to keeping it interesting.
Stealth in WvW is a really complex topic but removing the Smoke Field and reducing the duration at the same time seems like it risks turning something from highly centralising to completely useless because of nerfing two separate aspects at the same time, so I'd personally suggest only touching one aspect of the skill at a time?

Maybe they are changing it because it's a fire and forget skill that does too much?

Shield of Absorption (Guardian Shield 5) have a similar funcion of creating a character centric dome that blocks projectiles. However, it does not provide stability (which you can argue it doesn't really matter since we are talking about Guardian) and also keeps the Guardian locked in the channeling animation, preventing it from using any other skill with cast time without breaking the bubble.

Defense Field is not only better, but it also have a lower CD (25, opposed to 30) while allowing the Scrapper to still use other skills (which problably gonna be pumping healing with that med-blaster).

 

That said, I don't think this change is the correct move... In fact, I'm not sure why they wanted to make this one ground targeted along with the gyros in the first place (It's a tool belt skill, not a gyro)... But since the Gyros won't be ground targeted, it's obvious something will be hit on their place, and Defense Field is the scapegoat here (along ith the Sneaky Gyro nerf).

[Choyacute.8591]

Thanks god, the gyros stay the same, i was wondering how i was going to play my quick scrapper in raid or fractals with the gyros being static.

[terminustechnicus.9617]

21 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

For clarification, we'll still be changing Defense Field into a ground-targeted skill in the October 4 update.

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

As always, thanks to everyone who gave feedback on the upcoming changes; we really appreciate it.

 

Well, I'm okay with the first change and agree on it... it's one of the main features for scrappers to be meta in WvW.

 

Please keep the actual Gyro behavior! I personally don't care how scrapper work in WvW and if gyros are ground targeted there, for obvious reasons. I understand that in WvW meta scrapper has to make room for other classes, but Scrapper is PERFECT imho as Quick-Source in PvE at its actual state and behavior. Tho I doubt that many ppl play WvW after all, compared to the ppl who play PvE who enjoy the actual behaviour.

Edited September 28, 2022 by terminustechnicus.9617

[Jeknar.6184]

3 minutes ago, Choyacute.8591 said:

Thanks god, the gyros stay the same, i was wondering how i was going to play my quick scrapper in raid or fractals with the gyros being static.

The same way chronos always had to play in that scenario: Tossing it on your allies feet.

/shrug

[cgMatt.5162]

4 hours ago, crewthief.8649 said:

The point, is that Mass Invisibility is an example of a stealth skill with high cooldown  (30 seconds more than new Sneak Gyro, btw). So, the new Sneak Gyro isn’t an anomaly. In fact, it could be said that the old Sneak Gyro was an anomaly as it was much, much better than any other similar skill on another class.

It’s funny, because the complaints from Scrapper mains started with gyros becoming ground-targeted wells and the way in which that removes a unique profession mechanic. And then, without precedent, CMC comes into the thread and announces that Anet has reversed their initial decision and will in fact NOT be changing gyros to ground-targeted AoEs! Yet, there are still some of you (you for example) complaining about deserved nerfs to Scrapper. 😂😂😂

Point about Mass Invisibility is taken, but you don't understand that the removal of the smoke field means that in a comp other secondary supports (specifically Tempest) which could blast for their party will be impossible to take now. 

We were also looking at Druid as another possible secondary support but Verdant Etching with the wording "Verdant Etching: This trait now grants protection to nearby allies after using a glyph skill instead of its previous effects."  might means it removes the cleanse. I think one of the glyphs would need another cleanse to keep up with Tempest/Scrapper. At least then they could still blast a smoke field for their party.

This is balance.

[cgMatt.5162]

Druid is actually a hard choice because Verdant Etching and Celestial Shadow are in the same trait slot. It could theoretically replace a Scrapper Stealth Gyro in group content since it has the same target cap, but that will have an impact on WvW roaming and PvP balance.

What if they moved Celestial Shadow to grandmaster and deleted Ancient Seeds? Immob Soulbeast already does it better and Ancient Seeds was always annoying to fight against where the counterplay was to DPS the roots or apply resistance and walk out of them.

Edited September 28, 2022 by cgMatt.5162

[Kuma.1503]

16 hours ago, crosknight.3041 said:

anyone else find it funny how they quickly listen to the engineer players complaining about a change while still ignoring the now months of ele players complaining about tempest alacrity being implemented in probably the worst way possible?

To be fair Ele has gotten a lot of love over these last few balance patches as well. The scepter, dagger, and staff changes were very welcome, as well as the shout buffs. They also got some massive sustain buffs in PvP a while back and have been top tier ever since. 

They were also willing to go back on the awful Warrior changes, and undo the axe mirage nerfs. They seem more willing to listen to feedback lately if people shout loud enough. 

Get enough ele mains to make a big enough fuss about it, and It might happen in November. 

But yes, I've also been saying that Alac needs to either pulse every second during overload or become frontloaded. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Overedge.2435]

My two cents:

As a mediscrapper main, I agree with the changes after the redaction of the gyro changes. 

I too felt that the gyros' ability to move with the scrapper was a wonderfully unique way of flavoring the ability type. Combining that with all of the cooldown increases resulted in not only less overall cleansing, but some of the existing cleansing was made that much more difficult to use effectively. Combining all of the originally planned nerfs together took everything too far in the opposite direction -- mediscrapper is meta right now, but the goal should be bringing it down to the level of other supports, not gutting it so that you just end up completely replacing it with another class that becomes the new meta.

Purge Gyro was incredibly strong, because it was easy to use, highly effective, and had an admittedly short cooldown. Increasing the cooldown was the right move, because it encourages us to use our other cleanses more actively and save the big moving cleanse from Purge Gyro for when it's really needed. This was a good change.

Sneak Gyro is also strong, honestly too strong, and while I agree that it needs to be nerfed I feel like it got hit with the "too far in the other direction" approach as well. Reducing the duration of each pulse is fine. Reducing the number of total pulses is fine. But doing both has taken the skill from 9s of stealth down to 3s, making it literally only a third as effective as it was. At this point, why not remove Sneak Gyro completely (could/should also remove stealth from competitive entirely, but that's a whole other argument) and replace it with a different effect? I doubt a lot of groups are going to keep using it because, like mentioned above, instead of it being reduced to a more balanced state, it feels gutted and unusable, and will just be completely replaced by something else that will eventually be considered too strong.

I also like the change to Defense Field. Making it ground-targeted opens up some interesting new placement strategies that I look forward to trying out. I don't think increasing the cooldown was the right idea however, because of how important the stability it provides is. Maybe leave the cooldown as it was and decrease the bubble's duration instead? We need more stability in WvW, not less, because the sheer amount of CC bombs from zergs is oppressive and not fun. Anything that allows groups to literally remove another group's ability to even play is just not fun design.

Finally, I would like to extend my thanks to the ANet team for keeping your eyes and ears open and listening to the community. I know you guys can't even sneeze without half of the player base throwing a fit about it, but your willingness to listen and reconsider things really means a lot. The WvW community has gone a long time feeling unheard, so it's very nice to be acknowledged like this. Keep up the good work!

[Bealis.6023]

11 hours ago, Extacy.6192 said:

Gyro should have been changed to be only a smoke field. That way it would have forced skillful play. You had to balst correctly and there would be a clear distinction from skills like veil mass stealh elite form mesmer.

The other changes sound good.

But please rework how projectile absorb/reflects work. One bubble shouldn't be able to block an unlimited amount of projectiles. It is just unfun for so many classes.

Also please buff druid and tempest even more. I guess with these recent scrapper changes it will still not be enough to make them a real alternative in zerg play. On demand instant stealth ist just too good, paired with super speed, stability, projectile absorb, cleanse, boon conversion and permanent accessable sustain healing. Don't nerf scrapper again, but buff druid and temepst even more.

 

Druid staff 2 shouldn't be a projectile anymore, buff the healing on staff 1 significantly and rework the penalties on leaving CA earlier and some other things like the CA stealth trait.

 

On tempest please find a way how it can give alac AND heal on auras at the same time. Shuffle the traits around for this. Make aura sharing on 10 targets again. This would be sufficient to make it a real alternative for every second group.

Thanks

 

Good suggestions👍

It seems as a good thing that they decided to reverse the gyros change, since Scrapper is a brawler type, so it makes sense the gyros follow you as you move around alot, buut in terms of WvW team support, it outweighs the caster specs (Tempest, Druid, Chrono), who I believe should be at that level of support as well.

It is nice that the following updates for engi after 4th october will be aimed to be fun, but other support specs must not lack behind.

[Valisha.8650]

9 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I'm using the most uncommon language that for current  h o m o  sapiens seems impossible to understand these days, it's called "facts" and "logic".

Edit: Can moderators/administrators of this forum like stop with this wordphobia? It's disgusting that even normal  h o m o  sapiens is censored. 

There is nothing rational in a wannabe sarcastic post that does not address any legitimate criticism, instead resorting to strawmaning people.

Not to mention "fAcTs AnD lOgIc" is little more than an alt-right hocus pocus type of statement, plausible outside yet hollow inside. If you want people to side with you, it would be wise to actually explain your opinions in-depth, while quoting some verifiable data for those unconvinced. At least that's how consensus is supposed to work.

Agree on the the word censorship though, tis beyond ridiculous.

[Kydar Schattendolch.6879]

While I like the turnback and let mobile Gyros stay and even if I'm not pvp/wvw player, isn't this nerv to stealth gyro a bit overtuned? Is it still worse called "elite skill" anymore?

 

I mean, removing smoke field: ok

Removing pulses: ok

Reducing stealth duration: ok.

 

But a combination of all of these 3  in such a was is too much. Maybe at least give it 5 pulses á 1s stealth by removed smoke field or 3 pulses á 1s stealth and hold the smoke field or something like this. 

[Klikkin.9453]

On 9/27/2022 at 2:22 PM, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

I think an interesting way to make gyros unique is to allow manual re-targeting of gyros after they've been deployed. Every few seconds, being able to re-position a gyro by re-targeting the ground still gives this feeling of "moving well" without the precise movements that comes with it following your character. This can allow devs more tools to balance gyros as well, as they can change the gyros base movement speed on its way from one position to another, as well as the internal cooldown of repositioning.

 

As an example: A scrapper can call down the purge gyro onto a location, and then 3 seconds later they can target another location, closer to their team, and the purge gyro will fly to that new position. Then another 3 seconds before allowing for yet another repositioning. This can continue to happen until the purge gyro times out, allowing the scrapper to follow the flow of battle while leaving room for error as well as increasing the skill cap of the class.

[bwillb.2165]

On 9/27/2022 at 11:22 AM, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

 

How about a way to have them as both self-focused and targeted? Use the skill and a gyro hovers around you. It flips into a ground targeted skill which will tell the gyro to stick to a location instead! Then you can adjust the self-targeted version in WvW to be useless, and the ground-targeted version can have the full effect!

 

Also please revert Specter nerf, it's entirely unwarranted in pve and, frankly, wvw as well. I played a bit in wvw and a lone guardian could strip the entire shroud bar in less than a second...

[crewthief.8649]

2 hours ago, Valisha.8650 said:

There is nothing rational in a wannabe sarcastic post that does not address any legitimate criticism, instead resorting to strawmaning people.

Not to mention "fAcTs AnD lOgIc" is little more than an alt-right hocus pocus type of statement, plausible outside yet hollow inside. If you want people to side with you, it would be wise to actually explain your opinions in-depth, while quoting some verifiable data for those unconvinced. At least that's how consensus is supposed to work.

Agree on the the word censorship though, tis beyond ridiculous.

So, now facts and logic have a political affiliation? 😂 I get that everything is political now, but really? I have a hard time taking your position seriously when you inject a political narrative into a discussion where it has absolutely zero relevance. Come on, do better.

Edited September 28, 2022 by crewthief.8649