October 4 Balance Update Preview

[Baseraver.7241]

20 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Baseraver.7241 you might notice that it was a pvp focused patch. The PvE focused one will be a month later. And yes the rework is a nerf to Berserker in PvE but it is a big big plus when it comes to PvP. Lets hope they noticed the 2 things they have nerfed it with and do something about it. Tho would also love to see a real buff to zerker. Cause with last "buff" they just nerfed it instead by rework the multiplier of how the buff works.

 

We had a couple PvE focused patches over the months after EoD released and they all disfavored power berserker

Edited September 22, 2022 by Baseraver.7241

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Vandal.5621 said:

The communication I want is them acknowledging that they screwed up with the Gyro changes and are going to undo them.

 

Which is the exact reason they claimed they'd give us more advance notice after the Warrior banner debacle.

 

The change is bad and ANet should feel bad for coming up with it.

Great, you can get that "communication" after I get "communication" about them screwing game with elite specialization system.
Gyro's should work like drone's, you pick place, then smoll gyro fly from your pocket to targeted location, do it's shenanigans and it comes back to player.

It was really dumb to make them centered around caster in the first place.

[Vandal.5621]

41 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Great, you can get that "communication" after I get "communication" about them screwing game with elite specialization system.
Gyro's should work like drone's, you pick place, then smoll gyro fly from your pocket to targeted location, do it's shenanigans and it comes back to player.

It was really dumb to make them centered around caster in the first place.

Thanks for showing you don't understand how Scrappers work.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

4 hours ago, Vandal.5621 said:

The communication I want is them acknowledging that they screwed up with the Gyro changes and are going to undo them.

 

Which is the exact reason they claimed they'd give us more advance notice after the Warrior banner debacle.

 

The change is bad and ANet should feel bad for coming up with it.

I welcome the change. Defo gonna be fun to change up the playstyle abit.
And the potential increase in build diversity in wvw is also a welcome change.
As a matter of fact I think you're reading way too much into the whiny forum poulation when trying to assess how poular the change.
queue the confused emotes triggered pve plebs

[Vandal.5621]

10 minutes ago, Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

I welcome the change. Defo gonna be fun to change up the playstyle abit.
And the potential increase in build diversity in wvw is also a welcome change.
As a matter of fact I think you're reading way too much into the whiny forum poulation when trying to assess how poular the change.
queue the confused emotes triggered pve plebs

You are in the severe minority.

[Griifen.2473]

34 minutes ago, Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

I welcome the change. Defo gonna be fun to change up the playstyle abit.
And the potential increase in build diversity in wvw is also a welcome change.
As a matter of fact I think you're reading way too much into the whiny forum poulation when trying to assess how poular the change.
queue the confused emotes triggered pve plebs

The thing is, PvE players aren't all advocating for well's to be universally maintained as followers:
- Some are calling for split functionality between PvE and competitive game modes.
- Others are offering suggestions for nerfs to following wells to specifically combat the over-tuned nature of scrapper wells in WvW at the moment.
- Others are indicating that this change might actually not change enough and will only introduce an annoyance instead of counteracting the whole utility that scrapper supports bring.

The one main consensus is that Anet's current approach is clearly not sufficient to appropriately combat the problem that exists with scrapper at the moment.
Everyone acknowledges that it should be changed as it'll potentially introduce a more healthy WvW comp and experience, but almost everyone who's really reading into the current proposed changes agrees that there can be a much better way to do it than what is currently suggested.

[Griifen.2473]

So I've been following this thread since its release and I've read every single comment. 

 

I've noticed that the there are less and less comments of users asking Anet to not go through with their intended change to make scrapper gyro's ground-targetted. Maybe people are just up voting others comments instead of posting their own since there's nothing new to contribute on this front, or maybe people have had more time to think about what might come to pass and are slowly accepting their fate. 

 

My biggest concern right now is the lack of response from Anet, and I've seen some recent comments asking about it. 

 

Anet needs to acknowledge that this situation is not good, and the longer they wait to respond the worse the situation could potentially become. 

 

The chances of some non-GW2 player looking at these notes, following the game closely and wishing that scrapper - the one class that always excited them - has ground-targetted gyro's and that it being a skill that followed the player was the only thing preventing them from playing the game... Is just stupidly low. 

 

In the other hand, there are many, many current and veteran GW2 players that are playing scrapper in all game modes and there's a massive majority opinion that the way the intended change is set to take place is bad (in some form or another). 

 

Now the consequence of this is that, if Anet doesn't respond with the absolute perfect solution to the uproar, GW2 is very likely to lose far more players than what it'll gain by changing gyro's. 

 

I don't know if Anet is purposely fully neglecting the fact that bad changes to professions are losing more players than what they are retaining or adding to the game. Anet's goal at this stage of the game's life should be the retention and addition of as many players as is humanly possible.

 

They are doing a great job trying to get new players by making LS2 free, twitch drops, setting their sights on a new expansion, working on alliances (insert meme for #allianceswhen?). 

 

But adding new players doesn't mean a whole lot if on the other hand they are struggling to retain existing players by making some professions much worse than what they were before (as opposed to, for example, making other classes much better to be more competitive) and therefore are driving some players away. 

 

I don't know what Anet's analytics are telling them, but they are either seeing that player retention is an absolutely kitten-usless stat to maintain as opposed to gaining new players, or they simply haven't cared at all to be extremely cautious and communicative with the community when it gets into an uproar. 

 

If I was a new player and I just saw 25 pages worth of the majority of players begging Anet to not go ahead with changes because it's expected to kill an elite spec, I'd be very worried. I'd especially be worried if I saw so many people being so passionate about the game that they try to give multiple alternate solutions... And then have absolutely no response or even recognition by the developers. 

 

There is no way anyone can look at the lack of communication and say with confidence that this is net positive situation for Guild Wars 2 and the communities opinion of the developers. 

 

Anet has to respond - with anything. Even if one dev just posts "We haven't forgotten our promise. We're looking into the situation and will communicate early next week on our adjusted solution to allow for additional feedback" it'll be a massive positive boon to the situation. Hell, even they say "We've read your concerns and acknowledge that some players won't like the changes. We have a plan and we ask that you trust us. After much deliberation we've decided that no further changes will be taking place" would be better than them saying nothing at all at this point. 

 

Anet, please don't make the mistake of keeping quiet when your loyal players are upset. Talk to us and let's work together to arrive at the best outcome... Or you're going to lose players. 

[SoulBlaze.3059]

If you think scrapper doesnt need a heavy nerf and revenant needs a heavy buff you are blind and dont actually play pvp.

[Jash.3104]

4 hours ago, SoulBlaze.3059 said:

If you think scrapper doesnt need a heavy nerf and revenant needs a heavy buff you are blind and dont actually play pvp.

If you think people are saying scrapper doesn't need a nerf at all then you haven't actually read through this thread.

 

The people against the scrapper changes aren't saying that scrapper shouldn't be nerfed in WvW. We're saying the fundamental gameplay of a spec shouldn't be changed everywhere to fix a problem that exists in a single gamemode.

 

There have been plenty of replies describing other possible ways in which scrapper can be nerfed that fix the problem in WvW without affecting the overall gameplay of the spec.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

6 hours ago, Griifen.2473 said:

Maybe people are just up voting others comments instead of posting their own since there's nothing new to contribute on this front, or maybe people have had more time to think about what might come to pass and are slowly accepting their fate. 

I think more people start to realize the inevitability of the gyros nerfs instead. They are inherently OP when it comes to WvW zerg content. They deserve to be changed to wells in WvW instead.

Usually Anet wants to have the same skill effect across the board and only vary with some numbers instead. Moving gyros are essential in sPvP and a welcome addition in PvE. 

I believe the design philosophy "no rules are set in stone" mentioned by CmC in the balance preview livestream should be applied here. Make gyros act like wells in WvW only and remain its current status in sPvP and PvE. 

I agree that some feedback of the devs would definitely be welcome. Its a sad feeling to be 99% sure that there's no developer listening at all to the feedback/suggestions that is posted by its community. A feeling that is usually confirmed by a complete lack of developer reactions and balance patches that are not aligned with the suggestions proposed by the community. 

[Xaint.7461]

still NO Evasive Arcana (flame burst dodge) Fix, still NO FIX for wrong attunement on elementalist since 2019 ! . actually sadge ...

not to mention power cata is busted in pvp.

 

[SoulBlaze.3059]

I dont think the devs are using the right means for balance. It almost seems like the more a class is played the more they feel inclined to change it, which in theory isnt a bad concept. But, this doesnt hold up when you actual play the classes. I think a scrapper nerf is an ok thing, maybe not in PvE but def in PvP. But there are so many other specs that are even better and could use a nerf of some kind, as well as so many others that are worse. Has anyone even seen a vindicator recently, like the extra jump will not make people want to play that spec more. They need to see the balancing issues are more than class population.

[Xenesis.6389]

19 hours ago, Griifen.2473 said:

Anet needs to acknowledge that this situation is not good, and the longer they wait to respond the worse the situation could potentially become. 

 

I don't know if Anet is purposely fully neglecting the fact that bad changes to professions are losing more players than what they are retaining or adding to the game. Anet's goal at this stage of the game's life should be the retention and addition of as many players as is humanly possible.

 

They are doing a great job trying to get new players by making LS2 free, twitch drops, setting their sights on a new expansion, working on alliances (insert meme for #allianceswhen?). 

Maybe they're just waiting until their deadline next week to finalize the patch before making the decision? They're giving more time for the patch preview for a reason, to let us all have more time to discuss the changes instead of just a weekend as before, also time for them to make changes. So put down the pitch forks demanding an answer right away?

 

Also I wouldn't mention alliances and great job in the same sentence. Pve got a skyscraper built in a year on their plot of land with the amount of changes and additions they've gotten, wvw basically got new paint on their for sale sign on their empty plot in that same year. Been a year since they ran the first beta test for world restructuring, 4 betas later they don't even have alliance feature working....

[Zaret.1450]

4 hours ago, SoulBlaze.3059 said:

I dont think the devs are using the right means for balance. It almost seems like the more a class is played the more they feel inclined to change it, which in theory isnt a bad concept. But, this doesnt hold up when you actual play the classes. I think a scrapper nerf is an ok thing, maybe not in PvE but def in PvP. But there are so many other specs that are even better and could use a nerf of some kind, as well as so many others that are worse. Has anyone even seen a vindicator recently, like the extra jump will not make people want to play that spec more. They need to see the balancing issues are more than class population.

Youre mostly correct but id like to point out 2 things.

1 contrary to what could be thought the gyros changes arent realy a nerf in pve, overall in raids, strikes and fractals using statick wells to suport is, while obviously more clunky or bothersome, not realy that diferent from a player centered area, in fact it can even help when a suport needs to do a mecanic and wants to suport at range, the change was mostly done because of wvw in my opinion, because scrapper there simply was too good, like fb, giving area suport while moving, and in scrap case stealth and superspeed, made it just too good and no other healer/suport had any choice, the new gyros make scrap worse in wvw mainly but as most suports / healers use targeted area suport theyre more or less in the same spot as the others, also now scrapper coud go as a dps because the dps gyro will prob be decent using it in walls or like necro wells.

As for vindi... well it needs balance changes, mostly in pve where most power specks lack a lot, but on wvw and pvp it mostly lacks cuality of life changes, the energy mecanic itself is a more dificult to play around version of thiefs initiative (thus not even unique) and it is paired with cd and legend swap so it isnt the smoothest mecanic so to say, on vindi specificaly one of the most called col changes was the dodge, too bugged, slow, low reward too many risks and overall another inferior version of a thief mecanic (daredevil bounce) so while changing it wont make vindi better per se, it will make playing it much easyer, more enjoyable and prob more pleople will play and use it better.

 

Some classes just need cuality of live changes more than number balance changes, if you look at fb its not the numbers that make it that good, it is its mecanics and versatility that paired with good numbers make it broken, thus we need clases that, mecanicaly, are good and have versatility, and then numbers will be easyer to change.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

Some classes just need cuality of live changes more than number balance changes, if you look at fb its not the numbers that make it that good, it is its mecanics and versatility that paired with good numbers make it broken, thus we need clases that, mecanicaly, are good and have versatility, and then numbers will be easyer to change.

In my opinion the biggest flaw in WvW balancing over the last couple years is the removal/nerfing of some "broken" class features. All professions should have some unique function in the raids. This can be stealth providers, boon rip, damage dealing (aoe, high Burst, single target), condi cleansing, stability, surviveability, boon support, healing etc. 

For some weird stupid reasoning Anet thought it was a good idea to bring down all classes to the same amount of dps output, totally neglecting the specific "broken" elements of each profession. At the same time some of the "extra added elements" of some elite specs outperform professions that had those abilities at its core (like scrapper outperforming both thief and mesmer on stealth). These balance patches simply resulted in a very stale meta that only depend on the amount of versatility a profession can bring. An elementalist or thief f.e. with low surviveability, barely any versatility and low quality/close range dps should simply be able to naturally outdps any versatile class by ~50% to be somewhat viable. 

The only real way to promote class diversity in WvW is to make every single profession significant in its own way. If Anet homogenizes all professions the meta will always be to stack the few professions that provide the most/best utilities combo, and just abandon the others. 

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by the krytan assassin.9235

[Zaret.1450]

20 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

In my opinion the biggest flaw in WvW balancing over the last couple years is the removal/nerfing of some "broken" class features. All professions should have some unique function in the raids. This can be stealth providers, boon rip, damage dealing (aoe, high Burst, single target), condi cleansing, stability, surviveability, boon support, healing etc. 

For some weird stupid reasoning Anet thought it was a good idea to bring down all classes to the same amount of dps output, totally neglecting the specific "broken" elements of each profession. At the same time some of the "extra added elements" of some elite specs outperform professions that had those abilities at its core (like scrapper outperforming both thief and mesmer on stealth). These balance patches simply resulted in a very stale meta that only depend on the amount of versatility a profession can bring. An elementalist or thief f.e. with low surviveability, barely any versatility and low quality/close range dps should simply be able to naturally outdps any versatile class by ~50% to be somewhat viable. 

The only real way to promote class diversity in WvW is to make every single profession significant in its own way. If Anet homogenizes all professions the meta will always be to stack the few professions that provide the most/best utilities combo, and just abandon the others. 

 

True, but think about this, between mesmer, thief and scrapper wich ones do you see more when roaming and wich ones do you see more on scuads? scrapper had a group stealth with smoke field that both mesmer and thief lack in some way, mesmer is only the stealth without the field, whuke thief area stealth is much more static, now joining that to other funcionalities like cleanses and so scrapper was the most see, used and broken suport/healer in wvw, or at least on par with firebrand, now the way they changed is just making the gyro mecanic the same as other suports wells, but i think engi still has enought uniqueness i its gameplay so it isnt the same as say a chrono sup or a tempest, even if they bring similar things, it might not be the best way to balance, and its true each elite and class could just have unique "broken" stuff, but at the end people will play the one that brings the most utility, in this other way you have, for example, chrono with mantras, wells and area stealth, it has similar things to engi and the way it brings them isnt that diferent, wells or gyros, so you can play the one you like more, but do the exact same thing, with thief its similar, spectre can bring wells, and area stealth that is stationary, so it is somewhat the same as an engi but the core mecanic and the details differ so its the same job in a slightly different way.

In the end it all goes to how much uniquenes each one prefers in their classes, and how many risks are you ready to take, the way things were heal engy and fb sup were fooding wvw while druid tempest, spectre sup, etc were much much less seen, so maybe they took the easy way but it might have been the most efficient way to make a fast wvw balance, im lately playing virtuoso, and i think it is good in scuads, if compared to something like a vindicator or herald dps its somewhat similar, but usually people in my scuad, from my clan, forget that im using a zerg build and put me alone as a roamer, if the price for some misunderstandings or say, preconceptions, can be solved changing a couple things, then i wouldnt realy mind much as far as i still feel a mesmer, im not sure if i explained myself right XD

Also i think this new gyros will make dps scrapper somewhat more viable so not everything is that bad about it as i see it.

[Janggernaut.2304]

On 9/14/2022 at 1:22 PM, Double Tap said:

Wild Blow: Reduced berserk mode extension from 4 seconds to 1 second in PvP and WvW. This skill now grants adrenaline (10 in PvP and WvW, 5 in PvE). This skill now removes blind, weakness, and slow upon activation, and it knocks enemies down instead of knocking them back.

The talent is great for pvp, pve and wvw against multiple enemies or close to walls and structures and it has an amazing visual effect.

 

I use the talent for these reasons, NOBODY uses this talent but me (I don't know another one), ask whoever uses the skill if it's not great because it throws and knocks down enemies.

 

If you want to make changes, make the skill give swiftness or super speed for a second or two, so we can reach the knocked back enemy fast and don't lose time walking.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Janggernaut.2304
make it better

[Lynx.9058]

On 9/22/2022 at 1:00 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Great, you can get that "communication" after I get "communication" about them screwing game with elite specialization system.
Gyro's should work like drone's, you pick place, then smoll gyro fly from your pocket to targeted location, do it's shenanigans and it comes back to player.

It was really dumb to make them centered around caster in the first place.

sure, why would we ever have a mechanic centered around a melee character?  That's totally nuts, aint it? /s

[Griifen.2473]

This comment is more geared towards PvE, but I'm sure anyone with common sense will see how it can be extended to PvP and WvW as well.

To build on Grouch's comment on reddit some 5 days ago, I'd like to ask that Anet pay very careful attention to the manner in which they approach changes to popular classes:

DON'T TRY TO DELETE A POPULAR CLASS!

Let's take mechanist as an example. Right now what this balance is trying to do is take a dps elite spec and attempt to nerf it's damage for the umpteenth time without making any changes whatsoever to the utilities that the mechanist has. Anet hasn't for a single moment stopped to ask itself why the previous 2 dps nerfs weren't enough to balance the elite spec...
It's doing maximum 38k dps now according to snowcrows, ranked 14th. This next nerf is probably going to knock it down a few thousand dps... But is it going to stop the elite spec from dominating over 20% of all instanced content? Well, probably not. Why? Because Anet hasn't done a single thing to address the real reasons why people play dps mech and not other classes:
Free stunbreak and teleport on a pure dps spec,
additional passive regen that can't be stripped,
something like 800 cc (again on a full dps sepc),
free boon strip that's part of the dps rotation,
no need to flank an enemy,
unlimited mobility and full ranged damage,
and no need to add additional precision to reach 100% crit.
 

So what is Anet trying to do? Well they are persistently nerfing the living crap out of a clear player favorite (again the stats according to Grouch where 20% of the player base!).

DELETING A PLAYER BASE FAVORITE IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO BALANCE A CLASS!
A MUCH better approach would be to remove the insane utility that mechanists bring - BUT WITHOUT NERFING IT'S DAMAGE!
Change the mechanists traits to interact more with the signet's so that the mechanist doesn't lose all of it's utility - but that the utility will be tied traits that won't be taken on dps meta builds. The boon strip on the mine - just assign it to a trait. It would be so easy to keep the functionality of so many utility skills, but players would need to more carefully cater their builds to allow for these utilities.
(Anet we know you are actually capable of doing this because you literally tied tempest's major source of healing (granting auras) to a trait and it's potential to give alacrity to a completely different trait on the same tier).
(Hell you could even do this firebrand by having the mantra's insane utility be tied to the trait that lowers the cooldown of them. Instead of taking away the elite mantra's stability by such a heavy amount permanently, just have a competitive WvW support firebrand's grandmaster trait compete with one that would allow for more stability application. Heaven forbid WvW squads would actually need to plan for support firebrands that cater to different roles instead of having 20 players rock up with the same copy-paste build and completely dominate a zerg).

Anet is stuck in numbers (like adding 5% to reaper auto attacks as a magical fix that they think will make a class competitive) instead of addressing class mechanics - which is a much greater determinant for why players choose to play certain classes. Why aren't people playing harbinger in PvE? Well, you lose a crapload of health from corruption and you just live in downstate. Why aren't people play bladesworn? Because getting interrupted on an insanely long cast time for dragonslash is not fun. Why aren't people playing vindicator? Because not having a dodge to avoid mechanics in an intended manner isn't fun.

Now, Anet was brave in their attempt to change the way that gyro's function, but their change only really makes the elite spec less fun to play and doesn't effectively nerf the utility that it made it so incredibly powerful - it's still going to give superspeed, it's still going to be able to pulse stealth and barrier (even though it'll be less mobile), it's still going to able to cast function gyro, it's still going to have a moving projectile block, it's still going to heal like a MF with med kit, it's still going to convert conditions into boons every 3 seconds (something no other spec in the entire game can do), it's still going to AoE cleanse conditions.

Just... don't take the easy way out. You have so many amazing comments by players who absolutely play the game more than any dev you currently have (clearly), and so many content creators (like MightyTeapot who foolishly tried to tell the players what he'd change instead of telling the devs?). We want to help you make the game amazing - that's why there are 25 pages on this thread. If the player's didn't care you'd never see this much response to your actions. You've got so many resources at your disposal, so many ideas. Dare to use your players to your advantage.

[Daeth.8912]

On 9/23/2022 at 2:00 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Great, you can get that "communication" after I get "communication" about them screwing game with elite specialization system.
Gyro's should work like drone's, you pick place, then smoll gyro fly from your pocket to targeted location, do it's shenanigans and it comes back to player.

It was really dumb to make them centered around caster in the first place.

 

No, you are thinking of turrets, which already exist. The whole point of gyros was that they were mobile wells. The only one that is causing problems though in its current state is the invis one, but making it stationary would gut the spell and make it useless - especially as an elite. Maybe it should only apply to other players once in WvW but leave it the same otherwise. 

[kurosy.1384]

From the pov of a wvw fighting-guild perfectionist player, i never saw so much insight in a wvw nerf like the ones done to the FB recently and the scheduled one to gyros. Thanks Anet for addressing core disparities!

I really hope this incoming change won't be canceled and made uneffective because of all the comments. Staff mirage complains were thoughtful. Any wvw player who understands what's going on into a zerg would tell that scrapper is utterly broken (and became so after the previous gyro rework btw). This is just needed. Movement prediction is a key ability in wvw fights and every class has to deal with it anyway. I'm sorry if this will ruin the feeling to the class for some people but honesty i don't even see why scrappers should have special advantaged wells to start with. Evidently Anet can't manage to have wells working differently between splits, thus the reason this change is not split.

A lot of players tried to give a nerf alternative but as much as i've read, no one really nailed the actual problem. Just tweaking numbers like Teapot suggested won't help. If i have to name a nerf that could actually solve the problem and keep the mobility, it would be: superspeed changed to personal and stealth gutted to 180 radius with 3 targets only and no smoke field on it. And then, nerf some numbers too. I'd keep the mobility just for the sake of pve, cause imho it should be kept more free and fun.

(i'm ready for many confused faces. Yeah, i saw u guys are very confused on the actual state of things 😅)

[ascii.1369]

18 hours ago, Griifen.2473 said:

DELETING A PLAYER BASE FAVORITE IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO BALANCE A CLASS!

Not sure that's true. "Player base favorite" usually just means overpowered, either because the profession performs better than others, or because it performs the same but is easier to play. I don't even disagree with the assessment that a utility nerf might be the better solution here. However, players would complain just the same if they nerfed utility. What usually happens is that players get upset over nerfs to their profession and then lie to themslefs that it's not about their profession being nerfed, but that it's just the wrong kind of nerfs. Which of course is nonsense, there is no typ of nerf they would be fine with.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

What about shields man?

Shiiields; for crying out loud.

What's this, using two skills in one slot...?

 

Simplify, compress, inovate.

Combine these skills into one.

 

Engineer shield:

 

1. Magnetic Shield into Magnetic Invertion.

Now just magnetic Shield.

 

First effect: Knock back foes.

Followed by automatically triggering second.

Second Effect: Create a Shield around you that deflects projectiles back to foes.

Knockback any foe that touches it.

 

2. Static Shield into Throw Shield.

Now just Static Shield.

 

First effect: Shield yourself, being immune from any damage, and blocking attacks.

Second effect: Automatically throw shield after 5 blocked attacks or after 3 seconds.

You may still move or dodge while using this skill.

[Jojo.6590]

Mesmer input:

Core traits on Mesmer as a whole are a mess and will need a massive look into/rework, I whish you luck with this!

Change phantasms so that they can NOT be targeted and killed. Make it what it simply is, a delayed burst with a fancy animation/affect. Outside of PVE and even in some PVE areas phantasms die too fast to complete their affect/attack. On top of this several of these skills are still very buggy and won't complete their attack too. 

This change would reduce a massive amount of visual clutter that many people complain about when fighting Mesmers as they won't have to worry about tab targeting through a set of clones and another set of phantasms. This would also then help promote the use of phantasms in large scale play such as zergs and would allow for better balancing of these skills and Mesmer as a whole.

Virtuoso Input:

We desperately need a way to counter projectile denial skills as these skills completely shut this specialization down.

Skill 3 on dagger needs a full rework. The skill is slow, in both PVE (only a handful of raid bosses get hit by this) and PVP as it is only effective if the target is stationary. This is the highest damaging weapon skill on dagger and its unable to hit much of anything. For those unaware, the storm itself does not do damage it is the 3 projectiles that are shot off of it that apply damage hence why it only hits a handful of raid bosses. Making it into a port of some kind would be great. An example would be skill 3 on p/d thief (shadow strike/repeater) or a block skill that teleports and changes into a flip damage skill. This would be great as it would pair well with the block/evade traits.

The utilities could use a full rework. The heal is horrendous,  Sword of Decimation and Rain of Swords have too long of a cast time on top of a long animation wind up. RS should be on par with Meteor Shower. Meteor Shower is a weapon skill with a much larger radius, higher target cap, and  much higher damage and damage coefficient. Sword of Decimation would actually replace weapon skill 3 on the dagger very well as this class wants to kite and greatly lacks the tools to do it on its weapon kit and utilities.

Shatters need a faster cast time as currently it suffers from two cast times. The fist is the actual cast time while the second is the delay due to the long animation. Skills F3 and F4 are very lack luster due to not having as much of a difference/impact when using them with 3 or more blades. As others have mentioned removing the cast time OR removing the requirement to face the target would be a good fix to this. 

The elite is also awful.  Make it a V/cone attack. This way the counter for it is closing the gap with the Mesmer rather then side stepping out of it. In its current state it does not force a dodge, block, or invulnerability and just like weapon skill 3 is only effective on stationary targets.

I'd start here and then after see where the specialization falls before messing with the traits. As its hard to say what exactly to do with the traits until the issues with the weapon and utilities are fixed.

Distortion input:

I'm mixed about adding distortion. Yes, it will increase survivability however the issue is with blade renewal and signet of illusions. This could end up giving way too much up time on distortion creating an issue we've seen before and to an extent currently still see with Mirage. As someone else has stated one of the biggest issues Mesmer has is recovering from damage already taken not avoiding it. On top of this EOD brought a lot of mobility to a lot of classes and once again Mesmer is left with blink. Ironically enough EOD also gave a lot classes some type of projectile denial when these classes did not have this before. "We gave Mesmer a projectile based specialization while also making sure every class has some way to shut it down."

Mirage:

The issue here is once again distortion and signet of illusions as well as a handful of runes, sigils, and food that increase endurance regeneration.  

Infinite Horizon needs to be made baseline so that the ambush skills can be balanced more appropriately. The ambush skills keep getting nerfed because of this trait. This forces players to pick up this trait due to the lack of damage from the ambush skills with out it. 

An idea for Mirage would be to change distortion to a shatter that consumes clones and for each clone consumed gain x amount of endurance back. This works really well given IH is made baseline in that you'll now need to chose between destroying your clones for survivability causing you to lose damage or keep them risking losing the fight but gain more damage protentional through IH.

Overall balance input:

Stab either needs to be reduced in the amount of access classes have to it or it needs to be changed like Aegis. Where applying more stab only increases the duration of the boon. This will prevent many classes that are currently very problematic from face tanking CCs in both PVE and in competitive game modes (PVP/WVW).

Mobility needs to be toned down massively. Both Memser and Thief have been nerfed a plethora of times due to their mobility. Now we have other classes that have more mobility (and range in some cases) than Mesmer while others are on par with Thief while also having stealth and high/er damage and range too.

WVW:

A red flag for balance needs to be classes running builds in full celestial gear (It was removed from PVP for a reason). Currently a handful of classes can run full Celestial gear and both damage as if they're using full berserkers/assassins gear while sustaining as if they are in full Minstrels gear. These classes traits, boon access and generation, and both damage and healing/support coefficients need to be looked at.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Jojo.6590
Formatting

[FreshF.5793]

Just a reminder to suggestions for making the Elite Specter more viable as a support and in general more interesting (postet it a few months ago in the specter feedback-thread):

 

Here are some points I hope the developers consider to change/improve:

1. Make the Shroud more impactful. Damage-wise and Support-Wise. The Damage does not feel strong at all. Maybe you could make it more rewarding using the shroud instead of waiting 5 secs and using Consume Shadows and spamming 3 Scept/Dagger again. Enemies should be feared of Shadow-Shroud instead of waiting until the next burst from weapon skills comes:
   1. Haunt Shot:
      Give Might to the entire group instead of 1 ally. Since The generation of might for my group is capped at 3 Stacks with Thrill of the Crime, give the Specter other options to stack might for the group. Haunt Shot could be one of them. Also the condi-dmg is pretty low right now.
   2. Grasping Shadows:
      The only Condi-Cleanse-skill you gave the specter which cleanses only 1 Condition. Change the Condi-Cleanse to 5 targets instead of 1 and increase the amount of condis removed so it can compete with skills e.g. from the firebrand (Mantra of Lore or Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery). Firebrand skills cleanse 2 or 3 condis per use and have multiple charges. So why not make the condi-cleanse on the shroud of specter strong as well, since you have limited time to use it. The damage of this skill is not impactful as well right.
      I would suggest increasing the radius of the field, since I found myself in many situations where I put the field off target. Also increase the duration and the cooldown.
      
      Alternatively besides increasing the radius I thought about a game-mechanic like the revenant has one:
      Adjust the skill equal to "Project Tranquility" which is a field that is permanently active, but can be moved when using the skill. Change it to a pulsing field, that cleanses condis every second, and puts damage on enemies every second. Since you dont have unlimited time in Shadow-Shroud this is something special, which makes staying in Shadow-Shroud more appealing.
       
   3. Dawn's Response:
      Inflicting Fear fits the Style of Shadow Shroud pretty well. Though i would suggest here to give 5 Allies a Minimum-Barrier of 1605 instead of 1 Ally. Also the ranges of it could be a little higher (600 leap, 240 barrier).
       
   4. Eternal Night:
      It has a surprisingly high power-dmg but and good condi-dmg (4 Stacks of Poison), which is only useful, when you are playing the deadly-arts traitline. From a support-perspective there is nothing besides a heal for 1 group-mate (change it to 4 allies). Please consider adding some supportive boons to it. Maybe quickness would fit it pretty well, as it looks like a very aggressive skill. But i would actually suggest stronger defensive boons like protection and resolution, or even aegis to the teammates.
   5. Mind Shock:
      A mediocre AoE stun which gives stability for 1 groupmate. I would consider changing the the stability to 5 Targets. What i really do not like about this AoE skill, is the yellow field below me. I have no idea how long it takes to be activated since it is not mentioned in the skill-tooltip. It feels like 3-4 seconds which is way too long. Reduce the activation time please. Also the stability-base-duration should be at least 5 seconds. Since the skill takes so long to activate it is very hard e.g. in pve-boss encounters to time the stability to the correct time (remember you are also time-capped due to being in shadow-shroud). The Duration-Increase-Per-Target is also very strange because if there are more enemies who can cc you, you need more stability instead of a longer duration. I would rather suggest giving the skill 3 base stability for 5 seconds + extra Stability per target struck. Since it is hard to land because of the activation time, it should be worth it.
       
2. Scepter-skills from the specter. Still funny. So first of all. I like the animations from skill 1 and 3. Graphic and Sound-Design-wise they are awesome. But gameplay-design-wise I there are downsides I would like to see changed:
   1. Shadow-Bolt:
      I can not say they do much damage, but that is ok. They are auto-attacks. They should do less damage then e.g. dagger or a staff with auto-attacks, since it they are melee. Giving barrier to 1 player is also okay, though the targeting in strike/raid-content really sucks: → *A pretty important QoL-Update would be adding health-bars above the players heads. Give it a toggle-option in settings and everybody is happy. Many other MMOs got it too. For Single-Target Support this is in my eyes essential!* 
   2. Shadow Sap:
      This skill does not deal damage, neither does it support your group. This skill needs to be changed entirely in my opinion.
      
      Proposals:
      Change Skill 2 to a ground-targeted AoE, which gives 5 might to all allies in the radius (300 radius should be enough) + Barrier. Since you would have to use all of your 12 initiative to give only 20 might to your group, i would upper the duration of might or give even more stacks of might then just 5. We do not want to spam 2, since it should be fun, shouldn't it? 
      When we talk about the condi-side of this skill, I would add at least vulnerability to it, since the specter it self does not bring any vulnerability-skills.
      To make this skill also interesting for DPS-builds I would add a damaging condition like Bleeding (since there is no bleeding-condis at all, though we have a super new trait now for this) and burning or torment.
      The reason why adding burning is a proposal of the skill-design. Use the existing Projectile animation but make it explode on the ground, leaving a dark-purple fire-field with taller dark flames at the edges of the radius. As a sample I imagine it like the flames from the amaterasu in the anime naruto. Here is a picture of the flames (https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Amaterasu).
      Besides looking like a fire-field, the skill should be a Fire-field and a Blast-Finisher (not the first skill that has to combo-uses, referring to "Black Powder"). This would help generating additional might, while also showing the people how to do some easy combos.
   3. Twilight-Combo:
      The main dmg-skill which is spammed by every dps-player until there is no initiative left. The graphic-design is very nice. The damage-side is good as well. Boosting 1 teammate with barrier is also okay. But what I really do not understand is giving 5 secs of Swiftness to 1 ally. Especially since every build has to use the Trickery Traitline because of iniative. Thrill of Crime gives swiftness for 5 ppl. That is enough. 
      The animation looks like it should be accelerating your group. Change it, so the projectile accelerates 4 allies that are near to the user and near to the impact. Give them either superspeed or quickness. Swiftness is not useful at all here. 
   4. Measured Shot:
      It has low power dmg and immobilizes. That is ok. What should be changed is the travel-distance to heal allies. The travel-distance to allies is 300. Compared to a staff 2 from guardian which has 1.200 it is way to low. A guardian can stand at his position and heal without any risks. If a specter ports to a location to support an ally it is higher risk (maybe the ally is standing in dmg-field or whatever). And if the specter is too far away, he uses the initiative but without healing someone, cause the ally is still to far away. My proposal would be increasing the travel-distance at least also to 900 when used on an ally, which is still less then the staff 2.
      Another suggestion is to changing it to a pulsing heal-field, when using it on allies. The burst-healing might be okay for specter, but there is no sustained healing. Leaving a waterfield-combo when porting to an ally would be very useful and help with the sustained healing.
   5. Endless Night:
      Speaking of sustained healing. Currently the only skill, that gives sustained healing to only 1 ally is Endless Night. Channelling the skill for 2.5 seconds gives 5 seconds of regeneration for 1 ally. In its current state Endless Night is useless. Same goes for the quickness part. About 3 seconds of quickness with full boon-duration for a cast-time of 2,5 seconds for only 1 ally is not useful for a support class, since you want to other stuff too, right?
      So what should be changed. Give regeneration and quickness around the target and around the user (e.g. like scourge) in a radius of 300. Alternatively you just give the caster+allies regeneration, but while targeting an enemy, since other support classes can heal+attack the enemy.
      They are 2 options:
      1. Targeting an ally should be more impactful, because the specter looses dps when targeting an ally with his skills (Regeneration and Quickness). 
      2. Targeting an enemy gives a little dps but also Regeneration to allies even when I do not target them directly.
         
         Besides the Support-Side the Damage of Endless Night needs to be increased by a lot. Increase the Tormet-Duration. Add bleeding-damage so dps-builds see a use in "Deadly Ambush" from Trickery.
          
3. Combo-Finisher? In the new Expansion EoD we were introduced to Combo-Finishers. It was required to progress. But when I started EoD I was surprised there were no finisher for the Scepter-Skills. Here my suggestions to Scepter-Skills:
   1.  Shadow-Bolt-Chain: Projectile Finisher (maybe 20% like Shortbow for example)
   2. Shadow Sap: Fire-Field, Blast-Finisher
   3. Twilight Combo: Whirl-Finisher
   4. Measured Shot: Water-Field at the ally who the caster teleported to, Dark-Field left at position where you teleported away  from, when enemey targeted
   5. Endless Night: Projectile-Finisher or nothing
       
4. Utility skills. Wells. Graphic design is nice. But the cast-time of some of them is too long. Also I find my self not being able to use them, when I am targeting a boss. Maybe because shadowstepping to that location is not possible. What's totally missing is a stunbreak. Here a my suggestions:
   1. Well of Gloom:
      This skill has good healing. What should be deleted is the Cripple. When I use a heal-skill I want to stealth and get out of fight (at least in open world). Pulsing Cripple and Targets does not help here. 
      Addionally I would either give this skill a group condi-cleanse (1 condi) or area-stealth so it can benefit from the trait "Panakus Ambition". The current group-stealth utility-options are Shadow Refuge with 60 second cooldown or blinding powder with 40 seconds.
   2. Well of Bounty:
      A nice idea which helps the group filling gaps in boon-uptime for some boons.
      Though I would change the order a little. Resistance is most of the time not needed in PvE and could be lower priority. 
   3. Well of Silence:
      A pulsing CC skill which is not really needed because of the cc the Ultimates have. This woud be the skill i would give a stun-break to. But also it would need rework, since it would make more sense puting the aoe-field on the location you left with a shadowstep, then the target location. Also condi-cleanse or barrier together with a stunbreak would be nice.
   4. Well of Sorrow:
      This skill could use a little more condi-damage. Also it does not apply burning, even though the tooltips says "inflicts foes with any damaging condition they don't already have".
   5. Well of Tears:
      A power-version of Well of Sorrow. Have not used it a single time. Might be more useful if you play alac-support with harrier stats, since you have more power.
   6. Shadowfall (Elite): 
      I do not see any use for this skill, besides pulling mobs together or giving extra alac/heal. Since the cooldown with 75 seconds is way too high and does not provide more cc than basilisk venom (40 seconds cooldown) I would consider a rework. 
      Since this should be a support spec, it should get a support elite. 
      Proposals/Ideas:
      - all allies in the area siphoned for 10 seconds and get the heal from shroud-skills (maybe 60 seconds cooldown)
      - pulsing healing/ barrier to your group (+ stealth for 20 seconds)
      - a unique boon, that increases healing or condition-damage for group, or reduces incoming damage
      - the next 5 seconds you gain increased shadow-force or a passive that increases shadow-force gain, or refill shadow force when skill is used
      - regain initiative
      
      There are many options.
       
5. Siphon (Steal-Ability):
   A great idea. Brings some damage (though torment should be added), soft-cc and and 3x might, fury, swiftness (with Thrill of crime). Downside on this is that it currently only works, when you siphon on a foe. You do NOT give your group boons when you siphon on an ally. This needs to be changed very soon, since this should be a support-specialization.
    
6. Traitline of the Specter. Next to the traitline of the specter, the other traitlines need to be adjusted as well. Especially Acrobatics (which gives +240 Concentration, but only self-sufficient traits) and Shadow-Arts (Shadow-Saviour [360 Range] from SA and Traversing Dusk [240 Range] from Specter both give healing when shadow-stepping. Same effect but different range. Also only 3/12 traits in this traitline are helping the group. Merciful Ambush. Shadow-Saviour. Meld with Shadows). But lets focus on the specter traitline here:
   1. Specter (minor):
      You don't get too much Shadow-Force from spending initiative (1%). Additionally it is lowered by 3 initiative. Having only 9 initiative lets you use 3 skills and your initiative is gone. This leads to being forced to take the Trickery traitline → lower variety because you can either take acrobatics for more boon-duration or shadow-arts for more stealth. Not both.
      Proposal:
      Remove the decrease of initiative.
   2. Second Opinion (major):
      I used this rarely. This trait bring only +120 healing power, which already has a bad scaling (compared to Firebrand with "Imbued haste" giving +250 Condi, +250 Vitality, +250 Healing Power). Additionally you get 7% of you Condition Damage converted to healing power. Which would force you to take a plague-doctor, since there is no Prefix available that brings Condition Damage, Healing Power, Boon Duration. This includes, that when you want to play a support-build you have to bring condition damage? Seems contradictory to me. 
      Unless you execute some of the changes of the weapon-skills I mentioned before more healing power will not be useful. 
      Compared to Consume Shadows it is underperforming, whereas my suggestion would be changing it to a trait, that brings damage to the table, adds more initiative or more shadow-force.
      Or make this a trait, so you can siphon more then one ally (2 charges of siphon) at the same time.
   3. Shallow Grave (major):
      Did not use this trait. It would be useful, when you would change the elite in a manner, that you can tether 5 allies instead of 1 for a short duration.
   4. Consume Shadows (major):
      Very nice heal+barrier trait. Since the current Shadow Shroud is not strong everybody picks it for some extra healing and barrier. When the shroud-skills get buffed, this might not be that interesting anymore. Also it takes quite a bit to get fully shadow force why I don't think it is overperforming right now. You also can not use it instantly, which requires you to think some steps ahead. Good trait.
   5. Dark Sentry (minor):
      Since the venom got nerved and you dont have many skills to apply barrier to a group right now, it is a good trait. Though I would like to see it profiting from the Shadow Arts Trait "Leeching Venoms" to get lifesteal for your allies.
      20% Heal increase is good.
   6. Larcenous Tormet:
      A DPS-Trait. From 20% → 10% torment-damage decreased. Quite a lot. 15% would have been fine, since thief has low hitpoints (higher risk, higher reward). Alternatively add a "Inflict Torment when Crit" section to this. Making the autoattack stronger as a compensation does not feel like more fun in my opinion. 
   7. Amplified Siphoning:
      Besides increasing the barrier on siphoning an ally it should heal at first and barrier when the ally has 100% hp. Giving Specter 2 charges of siphon would also fit here pretty well. The increase shadow-force-gain is not that exciting since it only works on foes and you either want to play DPS (Larcenous Torment) or Support (Traversing Dusk). 
   8. Traversing Dusk:
      Heal on Shadowstep + Alacrity on Wells. What I do not like about this trait is
      1. that Alacrity does currently NOT increase Initiative-Generation. Please connect initiative to alacrity. This would mean the world the world to me.
      2. the instant Alacrity. If allies are outside of the well and step inside, they do not get Alacrity. Make it to pulsing Alacrity instead. 
   9. Panaku's Ambition:
      Cool Trait. Maybe you could add lifesteal to the Rot Vallow Venom in here.
   10. Strentgh of Shadows:
       Nice trait.
   11. Hungering Darkness:
       The Condition-Transfer is currently only useful for 1 ally. Change it to maximum 4 allies with a radius of 360. Would be way more useful then and actually be taken over "Shadestep".
   12. Shadestep:
       So much fun. I love helping people. 33% revive-potential is nice. Though I do not understand why the caster does not get barrier when targeting an ally. Sharing barrier is also nice, though right now you don't get a lot of it. Mostly it is around 500-1000 Barrier per ally. 

I hope this finds its way to the developers of the game so they at least read it and maybe consider some of these changes/ideas.

These proposals are from a thief-main with 1.700h thief-playtime. Not much but also not few. If you have questions just contact me.

 

Have a good day. 

 

Sincerely yours, 

Robin Grooth
(ingame name)

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by FreshF.5793