Your bad-guys are merely unpleasant

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Funky.4861 said:

And when Joon heard Soo-Wons' offer, she could see the money and influence rolling in; otherwise, why was she so secretive about what was powering jade tech?

Oh, that's because she knew that if that were to be known, there might be a pushback and calls to have that technology banned, restricted, or subjected to far more stringent (and harder to circumvent) testing. Which would "slow down progress". She's clearly one of those scientists that think that safety regulations are just brakes on progress, or something that applies only to those dumber than themselves. After all, if she's the one in control, nothing will go wrong - and even if something does happen, she will always be able to think of a solution to it on the fly.

To me, Joon does not seem like a person concerned with wealth and influence. Rather, she's someone that's out to improve the world - with Science. With absolutely no concern about the potential consequences the technology she invents and creates can bring to individual people.

[Kalavier.1097]

 

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh, that's because she knew that if that were to be known, there might be a pushback and calls to have that technology banned, restricted, or subjected to far more stringent (and harder to circumvent) testing. Which would "slow down progress". She's clearly one of those scientists that think that safety regulations are just brakes on progress, or something that applies only to those dumber than themselves. After all, if she's the one in control, nothing will go wrong - and even if something does happen, she will always be able to think of a solution to it on the fly.

To me, Joon does not seem like a person concerned with wealth and influence. Rather, she's someone that's out to improve the world - with Science. With absolutely no concern about the potential consequences the technology she invents and creates can bring to individual people.

And the pushback against the "savior of Cantha" being locked up in a building, willing or not.

People are fine with water or geothermal based power plants, but comment on Soo-Won being inside, and things get a lot more uneasy.

 

Joon has clashes with the nobility of Cantha, they comment on this in the manor instance with her collection of foreign artifacts. "They won't let her forget where she came from, so she won't let them forget what she's done/where she's been."

two npcs I just saw in shing jea talk about how Joon throws a lot of parties for the rich and influential figures, yet almost always is never present at them. The one ponders if she uses the parties to distract people from experiments she's doing at the same time.

Joon is rich, but she doesn't seem focused on what will sell a ton of models the next year. She doesn't really seem to throw her name around either that much to influence politics, besides in arguing with Li who dislikes her anyway.

[Funky.4861]

So bribing the court with a massive sum of money to turn a blind eye to her dumping waste in echovald is merely Joon persuing her world-saving science? No; she's as corrupt as the rest of them.

[Kalavier.1097]

12 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

So bribing the court with a massive sum of money to turn a blind eye to her dumping waste in echovald is merely Joon persuing her world-saving science? No; she's as corrupt as the rest of them.

There lies a distinction between "Joon settled out of court with the government for an undisclosed amount" (which is in official records, btw) and "Hoarded Soo-Won so that only Joon could charge jade, and sell the product, and preventing anybody else from having this resource by any means needed to secure her paycheck and influence on the direction Cantha as a nation took."

Again, Is Joon perfect? Nope. Is she truly good? questionable. Yes, Xunlai Jade settled out of court directly to the government for an unknown amount, which was officially recorded (bribes tend not to be so... obvious) but that seems to fall more into the realm of "Joon pushes forward, whether regulation says she can." Which fits more into how the game actually portrays her, vs a corrupt oil baron who hoards the oil field to prevent anybody from being able to get rich or powerful off of it.

 

[Funky.4861]

You can stop white-knighting for Joon; she's objectively nasty as determined by her actions. It appears to me as if you're projecting an image of purity onto a tainted character. No innocent/well-intentioned person operates in near total secrecy and gives hush money to the court when just a fraction of her dubious operation is revealed. If Joon wasn't in it for the money, she wouldn't have been able to get the court to turn away from despoiling the forest. People acting in good faith share information and co-operate- Joon doesn't do that. If she was replaced by Wind Energy Scammers i don't think you'd be half as supportive as you have been.

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

You can stop white-knighting for Joon; she's objectively nasty as determined by her actions. It appears to me as if you're projecting an image of purity onto a tainted character. No innocent/well-intentioned person operates in near total secrecy and gives hush money to the court when just a fraction of her dubious operation is revealed. If Joon wasn't in it for the money, she wouldn't have been able to get the court to turn away from despoiling the forest. People acting in good faith share information and co-operate- Joon doesn't do that. If she was replaced by Wind Energy Scammers i don't think you'd be half as supportive as you have been.

Do point out where I saw Joon is Innocent? Also, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Just because one has good intentions doesn't mean their actions/effects are always good.

I corrected you on who came up with the idea of the generator/charging the jade. It was no Joon going "haha, I must secure and keep this a secret so nobody else can use it, to pad my pockets!" but the dragon going "Hey, I noticed you working with charged jade, I have an offer we'll both be able to use."

"Wind Energy Scammers" what the hell does that even mean?

Frankly for a good chunk of EoD she wasn't in contact with the PC, and thus had nothing to share. Also the whole fact of when Soo-Won revealed herself, Joon was open(to the PC and Aurene) about working with her. The PC was the one skeptical and against the idea.

[Funky.4861]

Your every post is protecting Joon. You didn't correct me on the deal between Joon and Soo-Wons' to use excess dragon magic to power jade tech; that was amply clear in the story. My point has always been that Joon has selfishly prevented anyone else from using her info, and has used the leverage that jade tech has granted her to become wealthy and influential beyond her dreams. So actually, both arguments of your second paragraph are true.

 

Re: the wind energy scammers- i was referring to the fact that wind turbines are horrendously bad for the environment in terms of their manufacture, transport and disposal, not even considering the thousands of birds and bats they kill every year. In a similar manner, Joons' jade tech is just as environmentally unfriendly and unsustainable.

 

Finally, the only reason Joon was slightly open to the idea of working with Aurene and the PC is because she knew Soo-Won was unstable and was desperate for a solution. That and the likelyhood of the PC blowing the lid off Joons' covert operation; she wanted us on-side to keep her secret safe.

[Teratus.2859]

I agree with much said here.

Firstly the whole inability to separate a character from a person.. this is so kitten true in todays world where some people would take the vileness of a fictional character as evidence of malice from it's creator.

Calls to cancel or fire said individual for views people would just assume are real without ever listening to anything the individual would say in their own defence.

I don't blame anyone for walking on eggshells to avoid that kind of mob mentality, it's not a good thing at all and people seriously need to stop being so sensitive and easily offended, especially when it comes to fiction, fantasy and entertainment..

 

I'm also very pro the stereotypical evil antagonist as well, it's all well and good to have "complicated" villains but it's kinda overdone to death these days.
Sure it does reflect a more realistic world where the "bad guys" are not always entirely wrong or they simply have a different perspective, or set of beliefs and are acting on what they believe is the "right thing" just as we are but after a while you really do start to miss that good old fashioned lets burn the world for s***'s and giggles kinda evil.

I did have high hopes for Primordus to fill that role in Gw2 but alas.. we all know how that decade long buildup turned out to be a massive kick in the groin.
Still salty anet.. still very satly!! 😞

Still there is potential in Gw2 for some truly evil psycho super power to come along and want little more than the eradication of the world for their own amusement.
My Money's on Menzies the Mad for that one and I do so hope I get it since the opportunity is ripe for it.

Gods gone.. Dragons gone (mostly).. The Eternal Army pillaged of souls to make the forged.. Balthazar dead and what's left of him left resides in Aurene.
If Menzies wants to continue the eternal war which he probably does because he's a mad god then Aurene is the most fitting sparring partner left he can pick a fight with, and what better way to force her into it than to come to Tyria, her "realm" and try to turn it into another war torn wasteland like the Fissue of Woe.
Not to mention the attention he would likely aim our way... the puny mortal who killed a God!, (not to mention Dhuum if you done the raid.. another God and once ally of Menzies)
We would probably be of special interest to him as well.

So much potential in a Menzies storyline, God I hope we get one ^^

[Kalavier.1097]

On 10/1/2022 at 5:03 PM, Funky.4861 said:

Your every post is protecting Joon. You didn't correct me on the deal between Joon and Soo-Wons' to use excess dragon magic to power jade tech; that was amply clear in the story. My point has always been that Joon has selfishly prevented anyone else from using her info, and has used the leverage that jade tech has granted her to become wealthy and influential beyond her dreams. So actually, both arguments of your second paragraph are true.

Somebody brought up a detail you have ignored. The moment Joon told Ihn, Soo-Won became a state secret, not a Xunlai one.

Also, the Joon presented ingame doesn't seem to really care about wealth or influence.

Yes, I'm "protecting" Joon, but I'm not giving her a clean slate or saying she's perfect. You just appear to have hyper-focused on a single aspect and all.

On 10/1/2022 at 5:03 PM, Funky.4861 said:

In a similar manner, Joons' jade tech is just as environmentally unfriendly and unsustainable.

Besides the fact we have no idea if the material she was fined for was the Jade Junkyard, or something else entirely. Or what effects it had. Yes, it was dangerous, she got fined, and from what limited things we see, appears to have stopped.

On 10/1/2022 at 5:03 PM, Funky.4861 said:

Finally, the only reason Joon was slightly open to the idea of working with Aurene and the PC is because she knew Soo-Won was unstable and was desperate for a solution. That and the likelyhood of the PC blowing the lid off Joons' covert operation; she wanted us on-side to keep her secret safe.

This completely ignores the fact that Soo-Won is a government secret, and the Empress could reveal it at any time if she wanted and Joon couldn't do anything about that. Also if you look at her mansion instance, she's more concerned with everything collapsing because the power runs out, then "MY PROFIT MARGINS!" And you know, Taimi has been with her all this time and doesn't raise a peep about Joon being concerned with sales or profits, just fixing the problem.

 

 

Frankly, you are approaching this all from the wrong angle. Instead of clinging to Soo-Won (as she is Sapient and chose to help Joon) you should've gone not for the refinery, BUT THE MINE. Joon holds a monoply because she OWNS THE JADE MINES. She has the mine, the refinery, and the production.

 

Also frankly, given how Joon is actually portrayed ingame, she's more of a control freak "mad" scientist(with a streak of pissing off nobility who hate her), then a power hungry, wealth-seeking oil baron.

I think she bought out the Jade mining company and the lease to the Jade quarry, not to pad her pockets but to enable her to have control over every aspect of the operation. The recovery of Jade blocks, the shaping them and charging them, the installation into tech. Xunlai controls it all and therefore when something goes wrong, Xunlai can fix it without being stopped by somebody else going "Well you have no authority here, This is my company and land."

Her "flaunts" of wealth, as literally described by Kasmeer are purposeful, to be a giant middle finger to the Canthan Nobility who hates her and won't let her forget that she grew up a peasant daughter of a jade trader/potter.

edit: I just wanna point out, the reason Chul-Moo split from Xunlai and founded the Jade brotherhood was because he proposed not very ethical ideas to Joon, and all of them got refused. So, quite literally from the dev's mouth, the split of Xunlai Jade's founders was entirely over Ethical problems, with Chul-Moo being the one who had less-ethical ideas.

So, there is even a chance Xunlai got blamed because Jade brotherhood dumped tech outside of the junkyard, and Joon settled out of court to quickly get the headache out. We've seen the Jade brotherhood's HQ and all.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[greedywholesome.9081]

With a lot of things being so predictable now, I think the perfect villain should start off as a loyal friend, a charming and caring character, funny, have saved your life a couple times - then does a plot twist and commits unspeakable horrors. Etc etc. 

[Funky.4861]

@Kalavier.1097Joon is basically Lex Luthor. I left-out the mine because that's obvious. You need to bear in mind that we only see what the devs want us to see and whilst i find your perspective highly biased, overreaching and rose-tinted it's good that we are able to have such differing opinions based on the same information.

 

By the way, if Joon hadn't told Ihn she would have been pulled-in for questioning in due time. Ihn has spies everywhere (it's the nature of empires) and the Empress is holding that secret as blackmail.

 

As for Joons' mansion- she isn't a politician, she doesn't feel the need to show off materially to impress anyone. She's worried about the power cuts because they threaten her position- if she's providing the tech and it starts malfunctioning, she becomes blacklisted and denounced in Cantha.

 

Finally, how about this: we are told that Chul-Moo split from Joon because of a moral disagreement, because Joon ethically disagreed, not that Chul-Moos' suggestions were objectively any worse than Joons'.

[Ashen.2907]

On 10/1/2022 at 11:45 PM, Teratus.2859 said:

after a while you really do start to miss that good old fashioned lets burn the world for s***'s and giggles kinda evil.

Isnt that the vast majority of the villainy/antagonists in this game though?

[Ashen.2907]

14 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

@Kalavier.1097Joon is basically Lex Luthor.

This.

There is only one reason to purposefully manipulate a civilization into being completely (unnecessarily so) dependant on a tech/secret energy source that you and you alone control access to. Personal power and the ability to wield it to control that civilization.

[Teratus.2859]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Isnt that the vast majority of the villainy/antagonists in this game though?

I wouldn't say so no.

Most of the Elder Dragons seemed to have the same motive, make the world theirs in their own twisted ways.
Zhaitan wanted a world of immortal dead.
Mordremoth wanted to become the world
Kralkatorrik did want to destroy everything but not out of malice or spite he wanted to end himself and his own suffering.
Primordus and Jormag both wanted a world covered in their respective elements to empower themselves to kill their other half breaking the link between them.

Palawa Joko was a tyrant who sort to expand his empire and conquer Tyria.

Balthazar wanted to kill and absorb the power of the Elder Dragons so that he could wage war against the Gods and destroy them for betraying him.

Caudecus's motives were largely political and integrated into the revival of the White Mantle.

Lazarus's agenda was basically just revenge on humanity.. though he wasn't around long enough to even start this mission.

Scarlet just wanted to wake Mordremoth up, of which she was successful.
Although her actions were the result of a broken mind and being corrupted by an Elder Dragon.

Ankka is a bit more confusing as her motives may not have really been her own either.
There's strong indication that she had been corrupted by Zhaitan magic and was slowly loosing her mind as we have seen in past content with other characters.
This could be the reason for her apathetic attitude towards life in one way or another.

Ankka probably could count as one villain who wanted to destroy the world though, although she was still mortal and thus did not possess the overwhelming power or threat level of something like a God or Elder Dragon with the same goal.
She had to rely on another entity of power to get what she wanted.

Which leads us to the Dragonvoid.
The Dragonvoid did want to destroy all life on tyria, this is true but not for it's own amusement.
It wanted to return the world to it's "natural" state of primordial chaos.
So even this entity which is probably the closest we get to a "lets burn the world for s***'s and giggles kinda evil" still has it's own agenda.. and could even be argued isn't technically evil either.

The void is as far as we know the natural state of magic, chaos.. it was Soo Won who broke and fragmented this magic into several domains and creating Tyria and the Elder Dragons in the process.
The corruption and torment that afflicted the Elder Dragons was a byproduct of this act, the Void's way of resisting being torn apart into different domains.
The Dragonvoid, the conscious manifestation of the Void was born from that corruption and torment each Elder Dragon was affected by, and grew with each dragon's death.

Essentially the Dragonvoid was in every way a natural backlash/consequence to Soo Won tampering with the natural order of Magic.. thus it's quite hard to actually define it as "evil" because of that.
The natural state of Magic pushing back against a world that frankly should never have existed in the first place.
So really it's no more evil than any natural disaster or climate change to be honest.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Teratus.2859

[Rukia.4802]

On 9/23/2022 at 12:43 AM, Dib.4612 said:

Yeah Minister Lee kind of came out of the blue. I don't even recall anymore what he was doing inside the ministry that was wrong.  

 

I just remember from the strike that he thinks he's the future of Cantha or something. And I have a vague memory that he's right wing or something. And supposedly that was enough to oust him and portray him as a villain.  

 

White Mantle are kind of obviously kittened up, drugged on that Blood Shard magic and such. Although they do want to oust the Charr from Ascalon, man would I like to see that! Perhaps a WvW map based on it. I digress.   

 

Yes the devs at Anet are very progressive and seem to struggle to make good story because their propaganda checklist also needs to be met while writing said story.

Bingo. 

 

Cantha was my fav campaign , but I refunded EOD because its trash writing and it was a stain on the good memory of GW. 

 

I just wish games could go back to being fun instead of pushing political agendas. Funny how its always the left that force it in your face, like a kitten jehovas witness at your door, yet rightwing are the evil ones that just wanna be left alone and have some sense of normalcy.. crazy.

 

Imagine seeing politics day in and day out in real life, people talking about it at work, the news shoving it in your face , only to have the same crap in the games you play. I feel like in the last 10 years everyone has become so brainwashed they are obsessed with extreme progressivism and become fervently political to the point that their self worth is defined by mainstream idealisms and no one has any thoughts of their own. How exhausting, and what a miserable existence. Its become a religion in itself.

 

Anyone got a time machine so we can fastforward past all this insanity? Oh well the nukes will probably have dropped by then lol.

 

 

[Rukia.4802]

The saddest part is they are conforming to a minority and eventually once people are fed up with it they'll have nothing but enemies as they keep crossing lines and making people uncomfortable, not even children are off limits to them.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 10/4/2022 at 8:39 AM, Rukia.4802 said:

The saddest part is they are conforming to a minority and eventually once people are fed up with it they'll have nothing but enemies as they keep crossing lines and making people uncomfortable, not even children are off limits to them.

I try not to comment on this kind of stuff, but this is something I see come up often.

 

Just so you know, the minorities they're "confirming to" would be over half the employee roster, if not more at this point. If you don't like progressive, somewhat left-leaning games then don't play a game developed by a progressive, somewhat left-leaning company with a very diverse hiring pool.

 

It would be like if I started attacking a Christian company for making a Christian-themed game.

 

And its nothing new, the company has always been this way, and always will be. So I just don't understand why players with conservative values keep playing it, only to come and whine at the forums that the game doesn't reinforce those same conservative values, and instead pushes a "political agenda" .

 

If you don't like something, just leave it alone. its that simple. You don't have to tear it down, and no matter what you think, not everyone feels the same as you do. Probably not even the majority, because those minorities, as you call them, aren't as much a minority as you might think.

 

But its hard for people to accept that they've been systematically lied to.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

If you don't like something, just leave it alone. its that simple. You don't have to tear it down, and no matter what you think, not everyone feels the same as you do. Probably not even the majority, because those minorities, as you call them, aren't as much a minority as you might think.

Sadly some people get the happy juices in brain from tearing apart others for simply not hating things like they do. I've seen it in GW2 a fair bit, and other communities as well.

Update comes out. Person goes "It was okay." people attack person for daring to not dislike (or love) it.

On 10/3/2022 at 1:39 PM, Funky.4861 said:

@Kalavier.1097Joon is basically Lex Luthor. I left-out the mine because that's obvious. You need to bear in mind that we only see what the devs want us to see and whilst i find your perspective highly biased, overreaching and rose-tinted it's good that we are able to have such differing opinions based on the same information.

 

By the way, if Joon hadn't told Ihn she would have been pulled-in for questioning in due time. Ihn has spies everywhere (it's the nature of empires) and the Empress is holding that secret as blackmail.

I find it amazing you declare my opinion biased and overreaching, and then immediately launch into a statement that, as far as I've seen ingame or in any lore posts from anet or dev statements, has absolutely zero basis in fact at all.

Please do give me the evidence of Ihn blackmailing Joon. Also, if Ihn is holding the secret as blackmail, then how can Joon being holding the secret to empower herself?

You seem to have either not played EoD, or not paid attention. Otherwise you'd have picked up on the fact the Imperial throne's advisor is infact, a disguised saltspray dragon (the most legendary one of all at that), directly linked to Soo-won, and is known to the current throne holder as a dragon.

So quite literally, Ihn may have known what was going on with Soo-Won before Joon even asked the government for help funding/building the reactor.

Also, if the devs wanted Joon to appear as an evil, corrupt tech/oil baron type figure. They'd... actually do it. Instead everybody complains about the Jade brotherhood, not Xunlai.

On 10/3/2022 at 1:39 PM, Funky.4861 said:

As for Joons' mansion- she isn't a politician, she doesn't feel the need to show off materially to impress anyone. She's worried about the power cuts because they threaten her position- if she's providing the tech and it starts malfunctioning, she becomes blacklisted and denounced in Cantha.

 

Finally, how about this: we are told that Chul-Moo split from Joon because of a moral disagreement, because Joon ethically disagreed, not that Chul-Moos' suggestions were objectively any worse than Joons'.

I mean, literally, in the very game.

Quote

Lady Kasmeer Meade: Lady Joon's got quite the collection here. She's certainly...decorated.

<Character name>: And she makes sure everyone who enters this house knows it.

Lady Kasmeer Meade: I spent a little more time in court with her than you did, Commander, and I think I get it.

Lady Kasmeer Meade: The nobility won't let her forget where she came from, so she won't let them forget where she's gone.

Kasmeer outright tells us her house is done up to be a giant middle finger to the nobility who hate her because she is, technically, a peasant. The power cuts are a recent thing (literally the last year) and she's concerned with finding the source to fix it. Like anybody who runs a power plant would be.

Also I do love how we literally have word of god that Chul-moo and Joon split over ethical issues, and you literally say that Chul-moo is the better option. You know, the guy who went to create a violent gang selling knock off, cheap/falling apart tech. Ones who are literally using child labor to steal materials from the jade junkyard. Ones who have polluted goop all over their HQ.

Quote

Chul-Moo: Is Mi Shen still moping in his lab?

Marii: He is. According to him, you're "insipid" and "small-minded."

Chul-Moo: He can call me whatever names he wants, so long as he delivers the weapon.

Marii: And if he doesn't?

Chul-Moo: Then we dispose of him. Same way we do anything that doesn't work like it's supposed to.

The guy whose statement on a scientist not producing a weapon for them is basically "Then we'll just kill him."

It's fair to dislike Joon, but don't invent things to try to hate her. This is like people who hate Jennah because she's the queen and holds absolute power legally. They hate her for the power she could abuse, without taking into account anything about how she's been presented or acts.

On 10/4/2022 at 3:44 AM, Ashen.2907 said:

This.

There is only one reason to purposefully manipulate a civilization into being completely (unnecessarily so) dependant on a tech/secret energy source that you and you alone control access to. Personal power and the ability to wield it to control that civilization.

Completely ignoring the fact the entire deal is based around Soo-won's cooperation. I mean, I'd believe this if Joon was actually portrayed that way, as opposed to actually building tech and wanting to improve it more then caring about profit margins and business.

The same Joon that built a suit to help Taimi's medical condition and improve her well-being entirely for free mind you.

[Funky.4861]

Kalavier, there is plenty of factual basis for all of my points- your head is so far up Joons' kitten that you can't bear any dissenting opinion. I extended an olive branch to you, but you slapped it down. It's like you can't see any ulterior motives for Joons' actions (Taimi for example). As for her mansion? You need to be invited in- her collection is for her own benefit, so there's no showing-off to her political rivals. And Chul-Moo? You obviously can't grasp the layers of political intrigue and kitten-covering that goes on in ancient empires like Cantha, which creates an environment of distrust and insinuation behind every action. Nothing is altruistic in Cantha.

[Kalavier.1097]

9 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

Kalavier, there is plenty of factual basis for all of my points- your head is so far up Joons' kitten that you can't bear any dissenting opinion. I extended an olive branch to you, but you slapped it down. It's like you can't see any ulterior motives for Joons' actions (Taimi for example). As for her mansion? You need to be invited in- her collection is for her own benefit, so there's no showing-off to her political rivals.

Quote

Aristocrat: On second thought, I find my "formal dinner party" garments make me seem trimmer in the waist. Hana, thoughts?

Jade Servitor: You do look very dignified in your "formal dinner party" garments, sir.

Aristocrat: Indeed. Ah, decisions. You know what, we'll go with my "night on the town" garments. I do want to make an impression.

Jade Servitor: You'll make an impression in those, all right...

Aristocrat: Splendid! Now get to it! Wouldn't want to miss Lady Joon.

Aristocrat: Did you attend Joon's last gala? All the big names were there, except...Joon.

Citizen: I had a previous engagement. But I was invited to her jade celebration. Saw the empress. But Joon was...absent.

Aristocrat: You know, I've heard she throws parties as a diversion when she wants to test out new experiments.

Citizen: I suppose no one in power can stop her if they're sloshing in her sitting room. Clever woman. Strange. But clever.

Aristocrat: At the court? My, I bet she and Li are already at each other's throats. Those two are exhausting!

Aristocrat: I'll be staying clear of them. Although, it would be nice to get some face time with Cantha's jade prodigy...'

Jade Servitor: Shall I prepare your "business professional" garments, sir?

Aristocrat: I do look quite fetching in those, don't I? Fine, you may gather them.

Quote

Lady Kasmeer Meade: Lady Joon's got quite the collection here. She's certainly...decorated.

<Character name>: And she makes sure everyone who enters this house knows it.

Lady Kasmeer Meade: I spent a little more time in court with her than you did, Commander, and I think I get it.

Lady Kasmeer Meade: The nobility won't let her forget where she came from, so she won't let them forget where she's gone.

Almost as if the game quite literally, and explicitly tells us why Joon's mansion is so expensive/packed with artifact collection that is very in your face when you go through her house.

The game literally tells us that Joon hosts galas and parties, sometimes being present, sometimes not. And they are inside her Manor. Kasmeer literally shares with us, from her experience in Canthan Court, why her manor is that way. Yet you say the highlight part. This is why I question if you paid attention.

9 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

And Chul-Moo? You obviously can't grasp the layers of political intrigue and kitten-covering that goes on in ancient empires like Cantha, which creates an environment of distrust and insinuation behind every action. Nothing is altruistic in Cantha.

You obviously cannot pay attention to the very character you so clash against, if you keep on stating false things. I never said everything was Altruistic. I merely called you out for trying to say Chul-Moo may be objectively equal, or better then Joon in ethics.

 

9 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

Kalavier, there is plenty of factual basis for all of my points- your head is so far up Joons' kitten that you can't bear any dissenting opinion.

I will gladly consider any facts presented with the relevant evidence. I have yet to see anything proving that Ihn is blackmailing Joon, her sister. You say there is factual basis, yet fail to provide the evidence. If you have evidence to support your claim there, and others, from ingame items, lore posts, dev statements, please, provide them.

I will consider dissenting opinions and viewpoints, when they aren't supported by things not even implied in the game, dev statements, or lore short stories/posts. You can dislike or hate a character, that's 100% fine. Just don't invent things that have never occurred just to reinforce it. This is like when people were so desperate to hate on Trahearne they invented entire things that never happened to support their claims.

[Funky.4861]

You said it yourself- Joon hosts parties. This means her guests have to be invited, which is what i said. I also didn't say Chul-moo was 'objectively' better, just that his path (ethically) might not have been any worse than Joons'. You need to remember that we are seeing things through the lens of visitors being managed by an empire which is careful to manage its' image. I'm not inventing things, but it would be a courtesy if you can at least recognise the truth in what i'm saying.

[Rukia.4802]

On 10/7/2022 at 4:10 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I try not to comment on this kind of stuff, but this is something I see come up often.

 

Just so you know, the minorities they're "confirming to" would be over half the employee roster, if not more at this point. If you don't like progressive, somewhat left-leaning games then don't play a game developed by a progressive, somewhat left-leaning company with a very diverse hiring pool.

 

It would be like if I started attacking a Christian company for making a Christian-themed game.

 

And its nothing new, the company has always been this way, and always will be. So I just don't understand why players with conservative values keep playing it, only to come and whine at the forums that the game doesn't reinforce those same conservative values, and instead pushes a "political agenda" .

 

If you don't like something, just leave it alone. its that simple. You don't have to tear it down, and no matter what you think, not everyone feels the same as you do. Probably not even the majority, because those minorities, as you call them, aren't as much a minority as you might think.

 

But its hard for people to accept that they've been systematically lied to.

Anet was not woke during GW1 I played it for many years. Let's not pretend anet is [b]somewhat[/b] left leaning now, we've all seen their employees tweets and their writing lol. Many of them hate men , especially Caucasian.

 

I have never seen someone irl introduce themselves by gender or sexual preference because most people have actual personalities. The game is clearly drawing from real world influence so at least put miniscule amount of effort to making it realistic and digestible without killing me with cringe.

 

When you're in an environment that encourages you to "Express" yourself I'm sure it's hard not to, but it's rather annoying.

 

What you're saying is basically anyone not left leaning doesn't belong in playing GW2. Well that's fine.. financial reports will speak for themselves. I've read a lot on the topic outside of GW2 forums because you have to walk on pins and needles around here not to get banned for wrong thinking which is why most ppl here will probably agree with you, since most of us normies have been banned. I believe the general consensus is gameplay good, story bad.

 

This whole forum is an echo chamber , it'll be interesting to see if they double down or abandon the wokeness. If they want the game to be an exclusive liberal paradise then that's their prerogative but that's not what the game was advertised as. 

 

I don't care if you are a gender or gay or whatever why does the world need to know? Why the need for approval from random strangers on the internet . Imagine not caring about left vs right and just wanting a game to be a game.

 

I dont fight for this country to only have 1 side be allowed to speak. I struggled for 15 years with alcoholism for what I went through.  All I see is endless support for lgbt these days, I think youre gonna be ok without turning all games into gender studies. Your gender or sexuality is literally the last thing I'm ever going to bother thinking about, until I have no choice when it's being forced into everything.

 

Maybe if you loved and accepted yourself more, you wouldn't need everyone else's approval.

 

Anet is behind the curve though.. they gotta remove genders all together like blizzard did or they're bigots 🤣

 

In the end though , it's all just first world problems, enough to make me laugh as long as I don't play the game . ESO does a better job of lgbt. Every once in a while I'll have to safe a dudes husband or a chicks wife. No big deal. Pretty low key and good writing, very human and relatable, even if I'm not gay. But relationships in general are mostly ignored for the big baddies and world ending catastrophes!

[Kalavier.1097]

11 minutes ago, Funky.4861 said:

You said it yourself- Joon hosts parties. This means her guests have to be invited, which is what i said. I also didn't say Chul-moo was 'objectively' better, just that his path (ethically) might not have been any worse than Joons'. You need to remember that we are seeing things through the lens of visitors being managed by an empire which is careful to manage its' image. I'm not inventing things, but it would be a courtesy if you can at least recognise the truth in what i'm saying.

You have yet to provide any source for Ihn blackmailing Joon.

You also said Joon is "showing off to political rivals" when we are explicitly told by a person who has spent most of the expansions story up to that point in the Canthan Political court, and explicitly says what her collection is for. The lady who would have learned all this stuff from... other people in the politics of Cantha.

 

Also, you are forgetting that we are seeing things with the Jade Brotherhood not as "visitors being managed" but as people trying to hide from the law and find evidence to prove our innocence. Our interactions with the Jade brotherhood are far from "managed" by any government agency. In terms of the story, we visit them while on the run because of Ankka's attack on the reactor.

We see the jade brotherhood openly talk about paying children to rummage through the jade junkyard to find scraps. We see the jade brotherhood openly sabotage tech and attack repair crews. We see their HQ, filled with knock offs/falling apart tech they plan to sell and polluted stuff.

We are told by word of god, outside of the universe they split over ethical issues, and then we see the types of groups they run. Joon is hardly good, but hardly true evil either. Chul-Moo is explicitly shown to be much more "Evil" based on the very things we see inside his own HQ, nevermind what we see his people doing in the city and echovald. I will agree there is a thing that maybe Joon has done unethical stuff, but to say that she's possibly equal to that? We'd need to see Xunlai doing questionable things.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Rukia.4802 said:

I've read a lot on the topic outside of GW2 forums because you have to walk on pins and needles around here not to get banned for wrong thinking which is why most ppl here will probably agree with you, since most of us normies have been banned. I believe the general consensus is gameplay good, story bad.

 

This whole forum is an echo chamber , it'll be interesting to see if they double down or abandon the wokeness. If they want the game to be an exclusive liberal paradise then that's their prerogative but that's not what the game was advertised as. 

 

I don't care if you are a gender or gay or whatever why does the world need to know? Why the need for approval from random strangers on the internet . Imagine not caring about left vs right and just wanting a game to be a game.

gotta love the "If you don't think like I do, you aren't normal" attitude. "Who cares what gender or who you love, but if you don't think like I do, you are weird and wrong."

Which I also love because besides topics explicitly jabbing at these topics, I don't see people talking about it that much with such focus and care. It's only when somebody stomps in screaming about how wrong it is.

The most people who seem to seek approval and attention, especially about these subjects, seem to be the very people complaining about it.

Those topics get locked because people go from "discussion" to "Screaming at each other or constantly bringing up RL politics". Meanwhile actual discussions about the lore and world go on just fine. How do you know these "other places" you go to talk about GW2 aren't also echo chambers as you claim?

Don't care about your gender, romantic preferences, or political party.  Live your life, have fun, and don't shove your beliefs down somebody's throat.

[Ashen.2907]

On 10/7/2022 at 7:17 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Kasmeer outright tells us her house is done up to be a giant middle finger to the nobility who hate her because she is, technically, a peasant.

According to the dialogue you quote Kas is not outright telling us anything other than her opinion, stated as a possibility, about the motivation. This could say more about Kas' perception of outsider interactions with nobility based as much on her own past as it does about Joon. Kas' baggage in this regard is a core character trait.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

gotta love the "If you don't think like I do, you aren't normal" attitude. "Who cares what gender or who you love, but if you don't think like I do, you are weird and wrong."

Which I also love because besides topics explicitly jabbing at these topics, I don't see people talking about it that much with such focus and care. It's only when somebody stomps in screaming about how wrong it is.

The most people who seem to seek approval and attention, especially about these subjects, seem to be the very people complaining about it.

Those topics get locked because people go from "discussion" to "Screaming at each other or constantly bringing up RL politics". Meanwhile actual discussions about the lore and world go on just fine. How do you know these "other places" you go to talk about GW2 aren't also echo chambers as you claim?

Don't care about your gender, romantic preferences, or political party.  Live your life, have fun, and don't shove your beliefs down somebody's throat.

Congratulations! Tell us, does it take effort to be that bad faith, or are you naturally talented?