Why Is the PvP Community the Worst Thing I Have Ever Experienced.

[Mount Mazama.2917]

 

There are so many non-games in Unranked or Ranked. I don't mean the other players are better, I do not mind playing a better team. What I do mind is people getting bested then Q.Q in map or team chat all game and eventually stop playing all together. It seems like people do not get banned in PvP for these things. Ran into a guy, he just afks and is rude to his team in map chat. That was honestly a terrible experience. Apparently people in my game knew about him and already had him blocked? Like everyone just accepts it. Not really a fun environment when the community defecates where they hang out. Really not enticing from a newer player perspective.

Edit: I hear that the PvP is dead, it's really unfortunate because I think it will remain dead while these things keep happening so frequently. I personally wanted to play PvP to get ascended gear but now I think I might look into other options, oh well.. I do think they did a GOOD job overall on the design of the PvP. I come from Ragnarok Online and I did not play PvP in that game much only WoE occasionally, there was no specific game mode like conquest. Thanks everyone for the replies.

 

Edit #2: After playing more PvP I have come the the conclusion that there are many players who have been playing a long time but still don't know what is going on. They get really upset. I have seen people with achievement skins/ legendary weapons in mid silver PvP trying to tell me they know the reason we are losing. I don't believe anyone who is still in the bottom 50% players after years knows what they are doing at all or has any idea how to win. These people seem to AFK/Type all game. Same types who comm nothing but complaints in games like Overwatch. I think because the population is so low these people end up in way too many games. Why don't they go do something they enjoy? Arrogance is not a wise person's attribute, especially when they are not even competent. If you think a random teammate is what causes you to lose most one of your games, you are a silly person. This is sad and these people should probably move on with their lives. Reminds me of a drug addict.

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Libera Simio.1592
spell check, rephrased some things.

[Buran.3796]

  The game has one of the (if not THE) best combat systems in the genre and at the begining ANet invested in trying to make the tournaments popular to gain traction and rise the presence of the game. That included tournaments with over 400k $ in prizes.

   Then ANet became aware that GW2 would never reach the pupularity they searched (at least not though PvP), stopped caring about PvP/WvW and focused on PvE nad developing new, never showcased, new games which were finally canceled and put the company close to just end the game. For a while, the PvP comunity kept having hopes in that  a higer support would rise the popularity, despite the dream of ESL and big prize purses was over.

   Last two years I would say that the hopium lasted due the horizon of the EoD release, which would shake PvP with new specs and a promised higher pace of balance patches. Once months have past and the EoD revealed itself as the expansion with least PvP content and less properly tested specs, that hopium died and players started to care about PvP as much (nothing) as ANet.

   ...Which makes sense since most of us (veterans) already extracted from PvP everything the game mode has to offer us.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

pvp is dead so the only people left are salty tryhards or trolls.

[Saiyan.1704]

Our "Report player" system doesn't have the same effect as it does in other games such as Overwatch. Even Overwatch has a 10m+ Dishonor system if you miss a single queue, which I originally thought was intense because gw2 dishonor is only 2.3 minutes in comparison, then only around 7m after a second offense.

 

Players have had better experiences with the Submit Ticket system om this website where you can report a player yourself. Posting screenshots of that player's toxicity helps too. I have given a person dishonor before that way.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

1 hour ago, Libera Simio.1592 said:

Ran into a guy named Bob the Botsomething or other. He just afks and talks kitten in game chat it is honestly probably a bot itself.

I know exactly who you're talking about

I've got a defense hammer spellbreaker and a strong willingness to ruin the day of people like this. Whisper me if we're ever on at the same time and we'll send them to CC hell together.

 

And count yourself lucky that you don't know their full display name, because name-dropping is a guaranteed ban. Forget AFKing, wintrading, people dancing around slurs in whispers; no what Arenanet is really concerned with is whether or not you called out the person cyberbullying you by name. In the end its only going to be you who gets punished, and its going to be for that reason.

[Vancho.8750]

To Add to the points of other people.

The issue is not just GW2 related, it is somewhat of a generational shift in games. Once upon a time getting into a multiplayer game was annoying, you had to find a server, find a game , hope it starts, doesn't lag or disconnect and after managing to get on a game you just played to the end even if losing since you ain't getting another one soon so you pushed harder to learn the game so you can have more fun with it for longer.

GW2 at its core was designed as a Tryhard lobby pvp game for the older generation of gamers quake, CS, dota and yada yada and it clashes with the current mainstream gaming culture where people lack empathy for other peoples time since you get new batch of randoms next match or change the game since they are so many now. Anet and the lets say special people in PVP(trolls griefers, match manipulators etc) treat people as numbers which somewhat causes these numbers to drop out over time.

Good example of the generation difference is League of legends, it was always toxic place but the expression of it changed, before people would flame in chat but continue to play the game even if it turned vile, now since I have gotten older I had to kittening google what the kitten Inting means then you have people that just AFK cause it is not going their way so the toxicity has moved from Words to full time wasting peoples time with actions or more precisely inaction. So when gaming became mainstream it filled up with spoiled self important children or worse man children.

Arenanet on their side has similar issue but they are focusing in a lack of better words, In a really American way, Over Policing words and not actions. So if you blow a gasket and use some no no words and hurt someone fefies because they are being a little kitten since they are AFK or cheating you are gona get the ban. 

[Khalisto.5780]

well

 

anet taught ppl throught the years they wouldnt get punished

 

from the afker in the base of the pyramid to the title/gizmos sellers at the very top

 

everybody would get away no matter what they done

[Nymthalas.4019]

 

15 hours ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

well

 

anet taught ppl throught the years they wouldnt get punished

 

from the afker in the base of the pyramid to the title/gizmos sellers at the very top

 

everybody would get away no matter what they done

If people are taking djin buff while losing, going 2 v1 (with low mobility specs) while the team is trying to def mid, etc, etc etc... AFK is the the least of the problems. If the match is lost just let it finish.

[Mount Mazama.2917]

28 minutes ago, Nymthalas.4019 said:

 

If people are taking djin buff while losing, going 2 v1 (with low mobility specs) while the team is trying to def mid, etc, etc etc... AFK is the the least of the problems. If the match is lost just let it finish.

See the problem is that this objectively fosters a worse community. Instead of dealing with bad teammates (which btw if you get better over time you get less of these) and trying to help them understand the game or focus on improving personal skills like trying to get better at kiting or looking for unsuspecting people to 1v1... if you are support I guess you are boned somewhat but still. Every moment against better players is an opportunity to learn. Why are you so entitled to not having to practice anything or improve anything and you don't have to explain anything to anyone so you will just make the place you hang out in worse over time because you are lazy and apathetic. This mindset makes it impossible to build a community and is likely why this game mode will always be thrown out by newer players.  I am sorry to say it, if you are in silver still and not a newer player you are bad. You have to deal with bad players like other deal with you. I have pushed top 10% of players in every competetive game I have put time into and there are always people who have been stuck in low ranks forever that flame me when I am new instead of helping and then 6 months later I NEVER play with them again because I climbed and they did not. All games have the ability for a comeback no matter what it is. 100 to 400 is maybe a lose but at that point you should have played 80%+ of the game not walked away after a couple fights that went wrong. You are taking control of the situation OUT of your own hands with this attitude.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Libera Simio.1592

[Lysico.4906]

I am only plat 1    Sometimes drop to gold 3.  That is my skill cap.    But it shocks me that many players are unwilling to learn or take advice.  Not talking about passive aggressive comments.   If they are told we’re to rotate or what to help with they get all defensive.    I welcome advice.   

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I have to confirm that the match making is officially busted at this point as of 10/22/2022, and I'm not talking about win trading or throwing. The actual algorithm is incredibly outdated and needs to be retweaked for low population play.

Libera said:

20 hours ago, Libera Simio.1592 said:

There are so many non-games in Unranked or Ranked.

He's absolutely right, there are games starting where it's throwing like all G3+ worthy players all on RED and then 1x P1 with a bunch of S2 to carry on BLUE. Clearly this results in 500 to 80 situations. Whether you are on the winning or losing side of these matches, they are either way too easy or absolutely impossible to carry, and this is making for matches that are simply no longer satisfying to play.

Although I have a great deal of ideas as to why this is happening and how to fix it, I won't toss conjecture here. All I'm saying is it needs to be fixed. If there were only 10 players left playing this game, it would not be hard to get them all into the same custom arena inhouse and quick eyeball who was new, who was good, and who was great, and distribute them evenly on RED/BLUE for a relatively close game looking 500 to 350ish at worst. If a human being can do this in 10 seconds, I don't understand why the algorithm can't do this over the course of a decade and hundreds of thousands or millions of games played.

People just want GGs "good games". When scores outcomes start going lower than 500-250, this is no longer GGs, neither for the winner or the loser.

[Mount Mazama.2917]

28 minutes ago, Lysico.4906 said:

I am only plat 1    Sometimes drop to gold 3.  That is my skill cap.    But it shocks me that many players are unwilling to learn or take advice.  Not talking about passive aggressive comments.   If they are told we’re to rotate or what to help with they get all defensive.    I welcome advice.   

Many people do not have a growth mindset, they believe they are already good enough so they can just flame other people, and when someone hits them with real, sound advice they are likely to take it poorly. This relates to many things in life. Real experts question their knowledge everyday and keep learning with an open mind within reason because they know how easy it can be to come to the wrong conclusion, they likely have done it themselves over the years.

It is actually a lot easier to be told what needs to be done and why than it is to figure it out yourself people actually LOVE being guided in many things I don't know why competetive games all of sudden people want to go their own way and fail alone then get angry if someone points out the mistake. News flash gamers we are all monkeys sometimes with too much brain sometimes with too little. Humble yourself and get ready to learn and grow otherwise you are creating a cesspool around you of stagnation. Of course this is an upsetting place to be so you take it out on those around you. Something about you hate in others negative traits you see in yourself. 

With that said we all have limits and it is wise to understand them not everyone can be the best but most people fall short of the top 10% simply because they don't accept what is not serving them well and what is. AFKing and flaming people, getting defensive over criticism, deciding you are great at the game already and nothing you can do will impact the match because teammate dumb dumb. None of these things serve anyone they are complete and utter negativity. Let's get some more PMA gamers in the PvP lobbies and cut the kiddie mindset.

This problem CAN be solved if enough of us want it and it would bring an influx of players to the gamemode that otherwise decided to never matchmake again, and new player retention would be much higher. If I did not care about and enjoy the core mechanics of the game I wouldn't even be wasting my time typing. I would just never search for a PvP match again and play other games for that experience. I don't want this to be complaint tread 101. There are solutions available some of them require Anet to step in and actually moderate game breaking behavior (cooldowns to all idle players for more than 10% of the match) the PvP scene though. Contrary to popular beleif the more non-games bad players play the less chance they have to ever get better. You are contributing to making everything worse when you accept idle players.

TLDR; Game is good, has problem, problems can be fixed, require community to change some viewpoints and adopt improved outlook in conjunction with Anet taking action against non-gamers (they do not play the game they matchmade for). Culture shift in gamers and game makers will perform CPR on this game mode.

[Mount Mazama.2917]

10 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I have to confirm that the match making is officially busted at this point as of 10/22/2022, and I'm not talking about win trading or throwing. The actual algorithm is incredibly outdated and needs to be retweaked for low population play.

Libera said:

He's absolutely right, there are games starting where it's throwing like all G3+ worthy players all on RED and then 1x P1 with a bunch of S2 to carry on BLUE. Clearly this results in 500 to 80 situations. Whether you are on the winning or losing side of these matches, they are either way too easy or absolutely impossible to carry, and this is making for matches that are simply no longer satisfying to play.

Although I have a great deal of ideas as to why this is happening and how to fix it, I won't toss conjecture here. All I'm saying is it needs to be fixed. If there were only 10 players left playing this game, it would not be hard to get them all into the same custom arena inhouse and quick eyeball who was new, who was good, and who was great, and distribute them evenly on RED/BLUE for a relatively close game looking 500 to 350ish at worst. If a human being can do this in 10 seconds, I don't understand why the algorithm can't do this over the course of a decade and hundreds of thousands or millions of games played.

People just want GGs "good games". When scores outcomes start going lower than 500-250, this is no longer GGs, neither for the winner or the loser.

Thank you for this well thought out post and I agree with this completely. This type of game is inherently more suseptible to 'run-away' games. It is baked into the design in my opinion and it probably the hardest of the problems this mode faces to fix which is why I have spent more time fixated on negative attitudes and behaviors and they are little bit easier to manage than the fact that if you don't know everything the oppoent does in this game you WILL be blown out. In higher rated games I would imagine things can be decided simply on who has a better comp if both teams perform equally. These are kind of just how the game is for better or for worse.. Not saying there is nothing to be done to solve it but I cetainly don't have any ideas on how to fix the problem with keeping what makes the game so great and intricate. Fact of the matter is yeah closer games are more fun for winners or losers. However the best players will take games where they get RAN OVER and use it as a reason to GRIND and overcome in the future.. Something about crumbling in the face of adversity versus growing stronger than you ever would have been without it.

I really appreciate everyone willing to share their thoughts and talk on the subject that is a good sign some still do care about this game mode.

[Hotride.2187]

Just play unranked, stop caring about the outcome and enjoy the combat. At prime time you'll even be getting opponents near your skill level.

Even in a 4v5 you can get some pretty good fights, though ofc its unlikely you'll be winning the game.

[Lysico.4906]

Unranked is not the answer. There are no rewards 

[Mount Mazama.2917]

4 minutes ago, Lysico.4906 said:

Unranked is not the answer. There are no rewards 

Yeah it also basically says give up on any idea of a competetive environment with good sportsmanship. Which I care more about than rewards. People idle in unranked too, maybe even more so. I want to play the game more than I want the rewards. There is an option for us to put on our sportsman/women hats and act accordingly. There are many games played all over the world where casual and 'sweaty try hards'  alike conduct themselves in a well mannered way focusing on the mechanics of the game.. Just becasue we are not on a tennis court doesn't mean we should all act like children. If you are a child, well everyone needs to learn this at some point. It's not acceptable to go onto a public tennis court, ask to play a match then throw you racket and yell after the first two volley that you lost. You would laughed off the court and not asked to come back to play ever.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

37 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Just play unranked, stop caring about the outcome and enjoy the combat.

But you can't though, that's the point of what he's saying. These games are so lopsided lately it's unrealistic to do what you've said here, when your team is sitting AFK in spawn, and you're 1v5. When you're 1v5, doesn't matter who you are or how good you are, you die in a matter of seconds when dropping into that. There is nothing enjoyable about this. It as he said: "a non-game" match that shouldn't have seeded & started to begin with.

No more copout excuses for bad algorithm functions. They seriously need to give it a go to fix this problem.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[JTGuevara.9018]

2 hours ago, Libera Simio.1592 said:

Many people do not have a growth mindset, they believe they are already good enough so they can just flame other people, and when someone hits them with real, sound advice they are likely to take it poorly. This relates to many things in life. Real experts question their knowledge everyday and keep learning with an open mind within reason because they know how easy it can be to come to the wrong conclusion, they likely have done it themselves over the years.

It is actually a lot easier to be told what needs to be done and why than it is to figure it out yourself people actually LOVE being guided in many things I don't know why competetive games all of sudden people want to go their own way and fail alone then get angry if someone points out the mistake. News flash gamers we are all monkeys sometimes with too much brain sometimes with too little. Humble yourself and get ready to learn and grow otherwise you are creating a cesspool around you of stagnation. Of course this is an upsetting place to be so you take it out on those around you. Something about you hate in others negative traits you see in yourself. 

With that said we all have limits and it is wise to understand them not everyone can be the best but most people fall short of the top 10% simply because they don't accept what is not serving them well and what is. AFKing and flaming people, getting defensive over criticism, deciding you are great at the game already and nothing you can do will impact the match because teammate dumb dumb. None of these things serve anyone they are complete and utter negativity. Let's get some more PMA gamers in the PvP lobbies and cut the kiddie mindset.

This problem CAN be solved if enough of us want it and it would bring an influx of players to the gamemode that otherwise decided to never matchmake again, and new player retention would be much higher. If I did not care about and enjoy the core mechanics of the game I wouldn't even be wasting my time typing. I would just never search for a PvP match again and play other games for that experience. I don't want this to be complaint tread 101. There are solutions available some of them require Anet to step in and actually moderate game breaking behavior (cooldowns to all idle players for more than 10% of the match) the PvP scene though. Contrary to popular beleif the more non-games bad players play the less chance they have to ever get better. You are contributing to making everything worse when you accept idle players.

TLDR; Game is good, has problem, problems can be fixed, require community to change some viewpoints and adopt improved outlook in conjunction with Anet taking action against non-gamers (they do not play the game they matchmade for). Culture shift in gamers and game makers will perform CPR on this game mode.

I stopped reading at "growth mindset", a phrase constantly parroted by hucksters lookin' to sell a product.

[Mount Mazama.2917]

2 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

I stopped reading at "growth mindset", a phrase constantly parroted by hucksters lookin' to sell a product.

Maybe you spend too much time being advertised to. I am not selling anything however; just trying to explain how people can improve instead of crying and standing still for 3-5 minutes of a game. My intent is to have the community improve so the game mode can have a chance at gaining popularity amongst gw2 players or at the very least newer players interested in trying it. You have ignored everything else I have posted in this thread I suppose, you aren't really adding anything to the coversation with this so I question your intent in the post.

Good zing though, I guess you really got me.

[JTGuevara.9018]

9 minutes ago, Libera Simio.1592 said:

Maybe you spend too much time being advertised to. I am not selling anything however; just trying to explain how people can improve instead of crying and standing still for 3-5 minutes of a game. My intent is to have the community improve so the game mode can have a chance at gaining popularity amongst gw2 players or at the very least newer players interested in trying it. You have ignored everything else I have posted in this thread I suppose, you aren't really adding anything to the coversation with this so I question your intent in the post.

Good zing though, I guess you really got me.

Ok then. Now that you've made the intent, I will contradict it. So basically, your argument is: "git gud". Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. The sitting there and crying for 3-5 minutes we agree, however it is a symptom of a greater problem: pvp as a whole.You believe that this thing can be fixed and it is the players' responsibility. I, and many others on the other hand, do not.

If the game devs cannot be bothered to at least pretend to take it seriously, then this whole ordeal is pointless. New players are just going to be fodder for the schmucks that game the system. Let me ask you THIS: what is so-called "growth mindset" going to get them? No no no... I, as I'm sure many others will agree, will advise both new players  AND veterans to stay away from pvp. It is essentially both rigged and neglected. This playing field is not even fair in the slightest.

This is why I come at people when they say "just improve". Improve for what? This whole thing is a farce.

[Mount Mazama.2917]

6 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Ok then. Now that you've made the intent, I will contradict it. So basically, your argument is: "git gud". Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. The sitting there and crying for 3-5 minutes we agree, however it is a symptom of a greater problem: pvp as a whole.You believe that this thing can be fixed and it is the players' responsibility. I, and many others on the other hand, do not.

If the game devs cannot be bothered to at least pretend to take it seriously, then this whole ordeal is pointless. New players are just going to be fodder for the schmucks that game the system. Let me ask you THIS: what is so-called "growth mindset" going to get them? No no no... I, as I'm sure many others will agree, will advise both new players  AND veterans to stay away from pvp. It is essentially both rigged and neglected. This playing field is not even fair in the slightest.

This is why I come at people when they say "just improve". Improve for what? This whole thing is a farce.

I would say going into any activity with the intent to learn and improve is always beneficial in anything humans can do. That is essentially what I mean by 'growth mindset'. In contrast to coming into an activity with a feeling of deserving a good outcome no mattter what and if there is not a good outcome it must be other peoples fault. Even if you are a top .01% players on a team with average players, you are setting yourself up for a rollercoaster if you you expect to have your teammates play as your normal team would. Instead just look at what you can gain from the match maybe you can win maybe you can't. Hopfully there is a real match that everyone is actually involved in. I think there is something to be gained from that in more than just a video game. If someone is not interested in competing for their growth in the skill that is being tested then of course this is not what they should be playing and stay far away from it. Is the point of any game not to test your skill against another? I do howeevr very much agree that ANET needs to play a role here, it is not all on the players but we do decide how many people just don't play the game. From my perspective the QoL in playing PvP goes way up when you can play 10 games without a single person breaking down and quitting. ANET just released a patch that for better or for worse at least means they are looking at it.

I hope I clarified my stance and answered your direct question. Following the argument that this particular game is just not capable of ever having a good solid balance foundation is tricky. If the table you would play other games on will never stay standing up anyway, why not let the players tip it over after frustration. This is an interesting idea that I did not consider, I think I would also choose to not play that game either or get a new table. In this case getting a new table means ANET has to provide us with one. I am not sure I can say I have a robust enough understanding to agree or disagree on the game being fundamentally broken in it's current state. 

I have limited experience in this particular PvP mode. The more problematic games I have the less I will want to grind it out. I assume this is true for most people especially newer players. If we want to condense everything I said to  'just improve', I would argue "just improve politely' may be a better way to super simplify things.  I have not once made any references or claims to SR in this game. I am not good nor claim to be anywhere on these posts. Everything I am saying comes from personal experience in previous games I have played. Most of these games are FPS (Halo 3, CS:GO, Overwatch, Apex Legends). In all of those games I have been flamed by more experiences players for things that ultimately did not matter at all they just had a poor understanding that contributed to them being a more experienced player with me on their team when I first started, which they complained about. I assume this carries over to many games as it is interlaced with human tendencies. People are bias towards their mistakes meaning less and others meaning more I don't view this as easy to argue against. Thank you contributing towards an interesting converstion and reading my walls of text. 😛

[Khalisto.5780]

5 hours ago, Nymthalas.4019 said:

 

If people are taking djin buff while losing, going 2 v1 (with low mobility specs) while the team is trying to def mid, etc, etc etc... AFK is the the least of the problems. If the match is lost just let it finish.

Well. Not a very good insight as the population is now you always gonna have gold players doing kitten. I see this a lot in low ranks, dude dies mid and afk base cuz his team is so bad theres no way he's gonna win. Fun thing is, this ppl play the most balanced matches rating wise. No matter tue reason report system should work and ppl get longer and longer dishonor times so they either quit the game for good or when they get back they get back with better behaviour

[Khalisto.5780]

3 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Just play unranked, stop caring about the outcome and enjoy the combat. At prime time you'll even be getting opponents near your skill level.

Even in a 4v5 you can get some pretty good fights, though ofc its unlikely you'll be winning the game.

Unranked is prolly the most awful pvp experience for some players. I rather go ranked than risk going against a 3-5 plat stack in unranked, yesterday i got matched against 3 plat 3 2 plat 1 players being gold 1 lmao, feelsbad you cant even go unranked for memes this days

Edited October 22, 2022 by Khalisto.5780

[Mount Mazama.2917]

1 minute ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

Unranked is prolly the most awful pvp experience for some players. I rather go ranked than risk going against a 3-5 plat stack in ranked, yesterday i got matched against 3 plat 3 2 plat 1 players being gold 1 lmao, feelsbad you cant even go unranked for memes this days

Yes, now imagine being a newer player going against these stacks, I was made a joke of for my entire time trying to even unlock ranked mode to try and improve playing those closer to my skill level. This will drive newer players to want to play ranked ASAP just to feel like they have a chance. Since I unlocked ranked I have not been playing unranked because it seems like there are even more terrible games going that route. At least a low silver player can only be so good.

A top tier player or team would never let me even realise the mistakes I am making, I would just be on respawn always feeling that nowhere is safe. I did have these experiences in unranked. In silver ranked I see myself and others making mistakes all the time. Some of the unranked matches the opponents literally do not give you a chance to do anything, it's very punishing and difficult to parse. Playing against a good opponent will help teach positioning though it's just easier when they are just as likely to make a mistake as I am or at least close to it.

I don't think unranked is a good option until the player base gets larger and you can actually have casual games there. Most of it seems to be vet stacks pounding unsuspecting solo qs. Even in that situation though I think everyone should remain trying to play the game and adapting, you won't win but you can learn. It's just easier with a lower skill gap.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Either:

 

People bad and can't cope

 

or

 

People insist on playing bad specs and get steamrollered by people playing meta.

 

or

 

People know that the matchmaker will shove them into a game no matter how toxic they get, as long as they don't leave/there is no threat of being ejected from player pools/the game for being a kittenhead unless they say something that is blatant harassment.