Anet about Harbinger?

[SleepyBat.9034]

I don't think it's good balance design to give the class with all the corrupts access to all the boons.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

12 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I don't think it's good balance design to give the class with all the corrupts access to all the boons.

And even more condies via utility skills and shroud with quite kitten bad animations.

[Bizgurk.5639]

Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that Cal Cohen only talks about large scale fights in his message about balance philosophy? As if roaming doesn't exist at all... 

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Bizgurk.5639

[Gotejjeken.1267]

14 hours ago, Bizgurk.5639 said:

Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that Cal Cohen only talks about large scale fights in his message about balance philosophy? As if roaming doesn't exist at all... 

 

It doesn't, at least not to him.  He's a primary sPvP dev which is a set 2v2 / 3v3 / 5v5 format, no matter what.  

So WvW is a 'blob vs blob' format when it comes to balance, because they aren't about to fight two fires at once and try to balance the smallscale (which lends itself to PvP balance) and large (which lends itself to PvE balance).  

This is the fundamental issue with WvW balancing, because the big blob battles only really happen on EBG, and rarely other places unless someone decides to attack a T3 garrison. 

In my time of playing, I'd wager I've seen 70-80% of all fights outside EBG be 30 players or less (total).  You will typically get your cloud of say 10-15 and your defenders of say 5-20 and fight around a structure that isn't garrison. 

Roaming itself is almost entirely non-existent--at least the 'lone roamer goes to t2/t3 north camp' type.  You will at the least get a duo and often just a small, organized squad of 5 no one can take out because you need another organized squad of 5 and that doesn't happen.  

So the tldr; if they really want to fix WvW they need to balance around the 20-30 cloud battles that happen over all BLs, but instead will focus on the super blob battles of EBG because that's the easiest target and also the place with literally the most active people at once.  

EDIT: As for purpose to the topic, this is why Harbinger remains untouched in WvW.  It's a small scale nightmare and loses most if not all effectiveness at large because it's ranged.  As previously mentioned, small scale / havoc /roaming doesn't exist in the balance philosophy for WvW, so Harbinger is left alone.  

Edited October 30, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Thomas.2564]

On 10/29/2022 at 12:02 PM, Bizgurk.5639 said:

Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that Cal Cohen only talks about large scale fights in his message about balance philosophy? As if roaming doesn't exist at all... 

 

No ur not, but im sure all he dos is blob, if he even ever plays wvw. So i cant imagine he can relate to the pain the kitten that is celestial players. 

[AlCapwnd.7834]

On 10/29/2022 at 6:02 AM, Bizgurk.5639 said:

Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that Cal Cohen only talks about large scale fights in his message about balance philosophy? As if roaming doesn't exist at all... 

 

WvW is not a solo game mode. To take a keep or SMC you can not do it alone. It requires coordination and team play. The NPC in WvW even tells you this. However, you can roam if you so chose to. But thats on you. I enjoy both zergs and roaming. But I understand the risks when roaming. At any moment a group can roll over me.

[Zyreva.1078]

17 minutes ago, AlCapwnd.7834 said:

WvW is not a solo game mode. To take a keep or SMC you can not do it alone. It requires coordination and team play. The NPC in WvW even tells you this. However, you can roam if you so chose to. But thats on you. I enjoy both zergs and roaming. But I understand the risks when roaming. At any moment a group can roll over me.

WvW also has objectives for solo players tho, and even keeps often don't require that many players. Large scale and team play does not equal "stack everyone in one huge blob".

[coro.3176]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

WvW also has objectives for solo players tho, and even keeps often don't require that many players. Large scale and team play does not equal "stack everyone in one huge blob".

In theory, these should matter. In practice they don't.

If WvW was functioning correctly, there would be roamers all around the map trying to hold these objectives because they cared about having them and they affected the matchup. But actually, most 'roamers' are just doing it to keep their participation up before they go afk in spawn for another 9 minutes and 30 seconds.

[Zyreva.1078]

9 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

In theory, these should matter. In practice they don't.

If WvW was functioning correctly, there would be roamers all around the map trying to hold these objectives because they cared about having them and they affected the matchup. But actually, most 'roamers' are just doing it to keep their participation up before they go afk in spawn for another 9 minutes and 30 seconds.

So what? That's like saying there is no point in balancing arround zergs, because the majority is just spamming 1111 for easy lootbag/wxp farm.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, coro.3176 said:

In theory, these should matter. In practice they don't.

If WvW was functioning correctly, there would be roamers all around the map trying to hold these objectives because they cared about having them and they affected the matchup. But actually, most 'roamers' are just doing it to keep their participation up before they go afk in spawn for another 9 minutes and 30 seconds.

 

I admit, I think you have a lot I would disagree with in a few sentences. And since this in text only I am typing while smiling. You can tell small scale plays a big role here in just the complaint threads alone that you see on the forum. 

"I was ganked" - roamer that was slowing down an opposing side from getting back to a fight so that they can keep their objective

"They brought more numbers" - roamers scouting and reporting numbers and activities and then calling in larger force since they couldn't hold them back

"We need to hide our tags because of spies" - granted you may have spies but it also could be they had more roamers scouting and reporting on your movement versus you ran as one big group

"They keep coming and we didn't have enough" - roamers calling in more roamers since they didn't think they needed a zerg but a havoc vs havoc would work

"Why did you leave map and allow our stuff to be taken" - Roamers acting as lures to draw people off target so that their side could hit a bigger target

"How are we not outnumbered they are hitting us everywhere" - roamers being roamers and hitting multiple targets at once

"PPT doesn't matter" - a side that has less roamers that are trying to do more with less people and potentially getting run over by a side that has more in a given group

"They built siege, why don't they come off their walls and fight us" - playing against a side that has roamers trying to defend their stuff against a larger side

 

Could go on but that's enough. Roamers still defend but just as ANet encourages larger groups to just attack more they also remove tools and options for roamers to try and defend more. It is always easier to just attack when you can pick and choose where and when that will be versus defending where you are getting less tools and your chances to succeeded is more in doubt. You will see less people roaming because it is rough and there is no point to winning and running in one big pile rewards better for less play. Which even if it will also bring stacking winning needs to matter. To those roamers it already does now which is why some of us like both PPK and PPT to matter. We want it to count when we eliminate the other side and when they choose not to show up to fight because they were all amassed in one big ball elsewhere and choose not to show up. The best counter to a zerg are more havocs and counters to more havocs are more roamers.

Back when SoR was in a T1 one of the better comms I saw utilized their group with efficiency. If they brought their zerg to a new map they would move in force at first to figure out what was there. If they weren't meet with a counter force they would send a few roamers to each camp to take,  a few roamers to run ahead hunting the other side's scouts, leave 5 at the spawn towers and take the rest to a keep. Based on what they ran into they would reassemble or move through the entire map that way splitting off an appropriate number to each objective. These days it does seem like the answer is just zerg more. To me that's an issue because there is nothing worse when a zerg flips a T0 tower and they lose a T2 keep hoping their roamers could have held out against a larger force while they flipped an empty structure. But people will also say I guess that server didn't want to keep it where as it could also be said its more rewarding to take than to hold.

 

[coro.3176]

Insofar as we disagree, I think it's this point:

37 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

"PPT doesn't matter" - a side that has less roamers that are trying to do more with less people and potentially getting run over by a side that has more in a given group

"PPT doesn't matter" is a nigh-universal sentiment in WvW. Maybe one or two servers do care about it, but most don't. People *should* care, if the game were working properly, but it isn't. This affects everything.

Gankers aren't ganking to affect the outcome of fights. They're doing it because they just want to 5v1 easy prey.

Players annoyed at people defending with siege are frustrated because their group of 15 players that wants easy tower captures and don't care about PPT are being held back by 1 or 2 that want to PPT and it is immensely boring for all involved. No one likes arrow cart vs cata vs mesmer pull gameplay.

Zergs don't leave maps because they are getting le epic baited by skilled roamers. No, they leave maps when they get bored or tired. They leave because they are outnumbered, because their opponents stopped coming back to give them bags, or because they already k-trained the place and have to move on to the next one.

 

I *want* roaming to matter in the ways you describe. I just don't see it in practice.

Anyway, to get back to Harbinger, I think this is why builds like Harb & others get left so ridiculously OP for so long. Since PPT and roaming aren't big parts of most WvW-ers gameplay, there's not a lot of demand for balance there. Wish it were different.

[TheGrimm.5624]

55 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

"PPT doesn't matter" is a nigh-universal sentiment in WvW. Maybe one or two servers do care about it, but most don't. People *should* care, if the game were working properly, but it isn't. This affects everything.

 

Agree. And sorry wasn't trying to derail the actual topic, hence why I was smiling while typing since it was off topic and should have left it alone as a standalone statement. 

[Thomas.2564]

The problem isnt only harb, its any class that has hybrid trait's and a toon of boons to spam out. I'ev seen players afk being attacked and still getting a ton of boons from all these ridicolous automated traits. 

Celestial is such a HUGE carry, the stupidness of it blows my mind everytime i see these cele monkey's running around with every boon in the game, 25 stacks of might and never even evading ones. Seriously what's the point of endurance anymore, just slap some cele gear on and off u go. There is no way in hell that anet doesnt realise how busted it is either,  since they removed it from pvp years ago. 

 

To those of u who dont understand why cele is BS, let me explain. Lets just take the pure dmg side of cele, not even the condi dmg it can also do. So, lets say ur playing a full zerker build, and yes i know, playing zerker in wvw is suicide, no need to flame me for this, im just making an example here. Anyway, so im playing full zerker bersker rifle war. My auto att dos around 1500 - 2000 dmg depeding on crit etc, 19k hp around 2300 armor. Then u run into a full cele deadeye forexample, AUTO ATTACKING FOR 4K!!!!!!!!! On cele gear! Im full glass and he crits higher then me with auto. Plus he has more hp, boon durtaion and condi duration. Please explain to me how in the hell this is "balance" cal cohen?!?! And this was just one example, im sure everyone in here has had similar experiences.

[Sahne.6950]

3 minutes ago, Thomas.2564 said:

 

To those of u who dont understand why cele is BS, let me explain. Lets just take the pure dmg side of cele, not even the condi dmg it can also do. So, lets say ur playing a full zerker build, and yes i know, playing zerker in wvw is suicide, no need to flame me for this, im just making an example here. Anyway, so im playing full zerker bersker rifle war. My auto att dos around 1500 - 2000 dmg depeding on crit etc, 19k hp around 2300 armor. Then u run into a full cele deadeye forexample, AUTO ATTACKING FOR 4K!!!!!!!!! On cele gear! Im full glass and he crits higher then me with auto. Plus he has more hp, boon durtaion and condi duration. Please explain to me how in the hell this is "balance" cal cohen?!?!

That was not even a example.... that was just straight overexxageration.

Name a single Cele build that can hit 4k with autoattacks... ill wait.... 

 

i mean... cele is unbelievably busted, but you dont have to throw around random and completly madeup numbers and call it a "example, for those who dont understand" xD

 

for those who dont understand:

since they added concentration and expertise onto celestial, celestial can maintain 25 might. 25 might equal 750 power and 750 conditiondamage.

The whole things gets out of hand, because at 25 might, which alot of celebuilds can maintain, you have roundabout the same ammout of power as full marauder, while also having the same Conditiondamage as fulltrailblazer would have...  all the while having the same ferocity as marauder, same expertise as trailblazer, same concentration as minstrel, and having ALL THE OTHER STATS ONTOP ASWELL.

Long story short: when they have 25 might, they almost deal same powerdamage as marauder, same condidamage as trailblazer, while also being tanky like a Minstrelsupport.  THEY JUST HAVE IT ALL.

 

-sincerley, someone that is abusing cele 24/7.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Thomas.2564]

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

That was not even a example.... that was just straight overexxageration.

Name a single Cele build that can hit 4k with autoattacks... ill wait.... 

 

i mean... cele is unbelievably busted, but you dont have to throw around random, completly madeup numbers and call it a "example, for those who dont understand" xD

Nothing random about it, this has happend to be several times. Hes auto att is obviously hitting harder on me cause im full glass. But that still doenst change the fact that he's still doing more dmg then a full glass build, on cele bulld. Which is total nonesemce, no matter how u slice it. Rather u choose to believe me or not, is totally different subdject. So telling me rhat im just throwing around random numbers, when iev seen this bs with my own eye's contiously, is kinda offensive imo.

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Nothing random about it, this has happend to be several times. Hes auto att is obviously hitting harder on me cause im full glass. But that still doenst change the fact that he's still doing more dmg then a full glass build, on cele bulld. Which is total nonesemce, no matter how u slice it. Rather u choose to believe me or not, is totally different subdject. So telling me rhat im just throwing around random numbers, when iev seen this bs with my own eye's contiously, is kinda offensive imo.

The thing is.... Celedeadeye will NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER.... hit 4k with AA´s. Period.

4K Stealthattack with full malice? MAYBE.   but stop saying they do 4k AA´s, when in reality you mean the Stealthattack with fullmalice. Because other than that, there is no way to hit this high. I am playing this build myself.

There is nothing offensive about me calling out your overexxageration.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 10/28/2022 at 10:54 PM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I don't think it's good balance design to give the class with all the corrupts access to all the boons.

think again. harbinger in wvw is useless.

it has tiny corrupts compared to scourge and reaper, even core easily outstrips harbinger

same thing with dmg, it does nothing. its only things are a trap-like cc and a bit more mobility, pretty much zero aoe dmg. it's just absurdly bad for wvw. all of its main dmg is projectiles, ergo useless. so ye, its only a meme.

[Ronin.4501]

On 10/29/2022 at 8:25 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

This is the fundamental issue with WvW balancing, because the big blob battles only really happen on EBG, and rarely other places unless someone decides to attack a T3 garrison. 

In my time of playing, I'd wager I've seen 70-80% of all fights outside EBG be 30 players or less (total).  You will typically get your cloud of say 10-15 and your defenders of say 5-20 and fight around a structure that isn't garrison.

I'm guessing you're on an EU server?  At least 50% of the squads that run around on the borderlands in NA matchups (at least during NA primetime) are 40-50 players in size.  And half of those often have another 10-20 pugs or a smaller guild running side-car. Big blob smash smaller blob has been the NA way for at least a few years now.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

I'm guessing you're on an EU server?  At least 50% of the squads that run around on the borderlands in NA matchups (at least during NA primetime) are 40-50 players in size.  And half of those often have another 10-20 pugs or a smaller guild running side-car. Big blob smash smaller blob has been the NA way for at least a few years now.

 

Nah, NA, but just not pure primetime--usually play from 11PM EST onward.  Also stick in T3/4, sometimes 2 and rarely ever 1 so most likely my experience will vary from a T1 server / primetime experience.  

Still think balancing around 50 man blobs really only caters to EBG though, as other BLs just don't carry the weight of a SMC fight.  

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

NA is far less blobby than EU even, bc u have far more guilds that run in 20 ish groups, whereas EU mostly only has the blobguild left in the mode (i play on both EU and NA if i have time, mainly EU tho)

[Sahne.6950]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:14 PM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

think again. harbinger in wvw is useless.

it has tiny corrupts compared to scourge and reaper, even core easily outstrips harbinger

same thing with dmg, it does nothing. its only things are a trap-like cc and a bit more mobility, pretty much zero aoe dmg. it's just absurdly bad for wvw. all of its main dmg is projectiles, ergo useless. so ye, its only a meme.

you have to differentiate between zerg and roaming.

For roaming, a good celeharb can 2v1 consistently.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

2v1 ye, bc its then u with another vs 1 else xD any harb can do that, or run. but the class itself is only good for ganking, which hasn't much use overall in Wvw, where its rarely on equal numbers and even more rare, in kinda small numbers

1v2 is sth u never win, unless they are supernew. harb has no real stab, therefore it cannot keep up against anyone who know this weakness for long

[LeatherfaceChainsaw.2785]

Dear Anet I cant kill someone so plz nerf it.. Signed  Millennial Whiner