Permanent Golem summons and other ways to augment racial skills?

[Tails.9372]

23 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

As most of the "No" responses didn't include any input as to why I genuinely don't know if there's a counter-argument.

No there isn't, at least not for what the OP is asking for. At best you get stuff like "racial skills have to be weaker than profession skills so people don't feel like missing out for not playing a specific race" but that's beside the point as "make them actually good" is not what the OP is asking for.

[Super Hayes.6890]

I would like a permanently out option for golem suits as well. The racial skills aren't good for this because of the imbalance it would create. About the only way this could be done currently is by adding a new combat mount. I am for that just because I would love a "power suit" style mount but that would be tough to do right without making regular combat pointless.

[BjorJlen.9674]

   My take would be... nope, sorry. If anyone wants a more permanent pet, than as @Sobx.1758 said, just make a Ranger, Necro, or Mechanist. My main is a Ranger who most times uses the Snow Owl, Lynx, and Plant pet (sorry, I forgot its name atm), and while I might see the validity of temporary pets being made to stay out longer if I had any real knowledge or experience in such pets, I could see making them permanent being a overbalancing issue. Especially if they are racial traits if I am not mistaken.

   However I am a big supporter in giving the green Gollum of death the option of having different skins it could use in making them different looking, and not so... green lol. But that has also been asked for quite a lot too, so yeah. In any case, while a good suggestion nonetheless by the OP, I would have to say no on it just the same. Oh, and as far as someone posting a idea, question, or suggestion as opposed to using the search function, I gotta just say no to that as well.

   Sometimes, using the search function on any forms can be a real pain in getting the information someone wants as opposed to the simple act of just asking a question, and while long term form uses on a sight who might have been using it since the beginning might find it annoying, them's are the price one pays for being on the forums for such a long time; they have seen it all before. But that doesn't apply to those who haven't been there anywhere near as long, so while it can be annoying to see a question asked for a thousandth time, it never negates the validity of someone posting anything as opposed to using a hit or miss search feature. And this comes from someone who has used game forums for easily over a decade... 🙂

Peace...

[kharmin.7683]

2 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Perhaps this approach would be more effective if rather than either saying "No", which conveys very little, or "Go use the search function", which really underplays how bad the forum's search function is, just add a link to a related topic (if it's genuinely so easy to find one)?

The forums search is ridiculously easy to use.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

3 hours ago, Super Hayes.6890 said:

I would like a permanently out option for golem suits as well. The racial skills aren't good for this because of the imbalance it would create. About the only way this could be done currently is by adding a new combat mount. I am for that just because I would love a "power suit" style mount but that would be tough to do right without making regular combat pointless.

What imbalance do you think this would create?  All races have at least one summon skill, and racial skills are intentionally designed to be weaker than other skills (and could be tuned even lower to compensate if that seemed necessary).

 

I may be missing something obvious, but I'm just not seeing a reason not to implement this.

[Sobx.1758]

On 11/2/2022 at 9:28 AM, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

No it isn't the equivalent of buffing the power stat

It really is in the meaning of what I mentioned: rewarding passive play. Because it would just be a passive increase of dps.

On 11/2/2022 at 4:02 PM, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

"Go use the search function", which really underplays how bad the forum's search function is

...is it though? Why, how? Or is this just repeating what people used to say on one of the previous version/s of the forum?

 

e: guess I'll never know. Not that I'm surprised by a lack of response about it (...because it simply isn't bad). 🤷‍♂️

Edited November 3, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

In order to avoid balance issues an increase in up time, to 100%, would bring the power level of these summons would need to be reduced. As they provide an increase in dps their damage numbers would need to be reduced. As they provide defense (tanking for you, acting as chaff, etc) their defensive number, either vitality or toughness, would need to be reduced.

This would mean that the summon would hit like a wet noodle and die much more quickly. I am not sure that this would be sufficiently desirable to justify the effort (as minimal as it seems likely to be).

I, for example, would much rather have a summon that is limited in duration but (somewhat) impactful while in effect than an enlarged minipet with 100% up time.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

To any of you asking for the improvement of racial skills to nearer or possible at the same level of effectiveness of class skills, keep in mind that Revenants still do not have the ability to use any racial skills and would be deprived of a the ability to take part in whatever meta forms should these racial skills be improved sufficiently.

[Super Hayes.6890]

14 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

To any of you asking for the improvement of racial skills to nearer or possible at the same level of effectiveness of class skills, keep in mind that Revenants still do not have the ability to use any racial skills and would be deprived of a the ability to take part in whatever meta forms should these racial skills be improved sufficiently.

Wow 😳 I did not know this. I suggested the mount system as it makes it available to all classes and races. It also allows for skins in the future so our "mechs" can look different if desired while generating revenue for the game.

20 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

What imbalance do you think this would create?  All races have at least one summon skill, and racial skills are intentionally designed to be weaker than other skills (and could be tuned even lower to compensate if that seemed necessary).

 

I may be missing something obvious, but I'm just not seeing a reason not to implement this.

You are right in that all racial summon skills getting the improvement eliminates balance issues. I was fixated on the Asura's golems and forgot that all racial summons are in play for this discussion.

[Padrion.7382]

On 11/1/2022 at 2:00 PM, civokenes.3284 said:

Making racial skills better than the proffesion skills would make optimal builds include race skills, which would mean that many people wouldn't pick the race they like, but the race with the best skills

 

Same could be said the other way round: A lot of people feel obliged to pick the profession with the best skills not the one they like. Yet most people would agree, that an RPG where the choice between a warrior and a mage had no gameplay implications would be disappointing...

[Gibson.4036]

On 11/2/2022 at 11:02 AM, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Perhaps this approach would be more effective if rather than either saying "No", which conveys very little, or "Go use the search function", which really underplays how bad the forum's search function is, just add a link to a related topic (if it's genuinely so easy to find one)?

 

Obviously you're free not to do that, but as far as I can see the approach you outline achieves little more than make the forum feel unnecessarily hostile.

 

 

[Hindenburg.3415]

Probably no.

 

Tried to do some dungeons last night as mechanist with other one in party.

In close spaces like Manor dungeon for example you can't see anything because of mechs running around and constantly getting in your face.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

On 11/2/2022 at 11:33 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

It really is in the meaning of what I mentioned: rewarding passive play. Because it would just be a passive increase of dps.

I'm quite sure that a permanent mistfire wolf would not be a passive increase of dps over the options that professions already have. If you think otherwise, you can point an example where it would happen.

Specifically, please, do point out a case where taking a permanent mistfire wolf would be a better option than every available profession elite.

I kind of remember that this has been brought up in a previous thread about mistfire wolf specifically, and no such example has been given. There were just  general claims that "it would be too OP", but noone actually has shown that it truly would be so yet.

In short: i don't think that bumping up an inferior skill to the level where it would still be inferior is a big deal.

And, if you do find a profession where all its elites are so bad a permanent mistfire would be better, it's to me not an argument against mistfire, but for making those profession elites better. Because it would mean they are really, really bad.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Tails.9372]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I'm quite sure that a permanent mistfire wolf would not be a passive increase of dps over the options that professions already have.

I don't think that that's the issue he takes with it. It sounds more like that the problem for him is that it's a passive increase over "not having / using anything" but not in a sense that it's "to much of an increase" but more in regards to it being an increase "at all".

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I'm quite sure that a permanent mistfire wolf would not be a passive increase of dps over the options that professions already have. If you think otherwise, you can point an example where it would happen.

Look through the skills and understand what "passive" means.

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

I don't think that that's the issue he takes with it. It sounds more like that the problem for him is that it's a passive increase over "not having / using anything" but not in a sense that it's "to much of an increase" but more in regards to it being an increase "at all".

Yeah, i know. It is an exercise in purely theoretical thought with no bearing on the actual game at all. The comparison he speaks of is not something that would actually happen (and if it would happen, it would be meaningless, as it would impact only the people in very bad builds - and a slight "passive increase" of few dps to a build doing 4k is completely irrelevant). Unless a better argument is found, this looks to me to be purely a complaining for the sake of complaining.

There's only one situation where it might be somewhat relevant - in the short time during leveling where you already have your elite slot unlocked, but do not have access to all your elite skills yet. The question is, do we really have to concern ourselves with such an edge case?

Edited November 4, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Cyninja.2954]

Oh look, haven't had this topic in a while.

 

It's not going to happen. Ever. There are reasons for it but even those are irrelevant because the outset has always been "play which ever race you want without fear of having sub-optimal racial skills". Other MMORPGs have shown that racial skill usefulness, no matter by how much, only causes issues in this regard.

 

So even IF you came up with some great reasons as to why this should get changed or why it wouldn't have a large impact or how one could balance it, IT DOESN'T MATTER because the outset right now of "it has NO impact" already achieves that goal.

 

There is a reason that racial skill which at any point in time for any type of minuscule content proved useful where nuked from orbit (and let's not forget the few that are still evading the developers notice).

 

TL;DR:

Racial skills are flavor. The intended goal is for them to have 0 impact on player racial choice. The developers have not in any way made any hint that this goal has in any way shifted. Also revenants.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Gibson.4036]

Pets do take aggro for the professions that have them.

Theoretically, their survival toolkit should be balanced around that.

So if you make this permanently available to every profession, how does that affect the rest of their survival skills?

Will Warband Support also become permanent?

Will Sylvan Hound, Golems, Warband Support, Hounds of Balthazar, and Wurm, be equalized to put out the same amount of damage, support, and have the same health?

All racial summons are elites except Norns'. Does that mean if I want to play thief with summons, I should play Norn so I could keep Thieve's Guild and still get a racial summon?

Edited November 4, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

(and if it would happen, it would be meaningless, as it would impact only the people in very bad builds - and a slight "passive increase" of few dps to a build doing 4k is completely irrelevant).

Claiming that slotting a different elite skill makes the build automatically "very bad" and deal 4k dps is simply -and rather obviously- wrong.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Claiming that slotting a different elite skill makes the build automatically "very bad" and deal 4k dps is simply -and rather obviously- wrong.

You might want to reread my post again then, because that's not what i claimed.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You might want to reread my post again then, because that's not what i claimed.

If that's not what you meant then you should know it doesn't only affect "bad builds dealing 4k dps" and that it is a passive increase of dps.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If that's not what you meant then you should know it doesn't only affect "bad builds dealing 4k dps" and that it is a passive increase of dps.

Passive increase of dps compared to what, exactly? Builds that run the current version of the skill? I can make some pretty decent guess about how "good" those "builds" are.

Hint: it won't be a passive increase of dps to any decent build, because no decent build would run that skill.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

46 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Passive increase of dps compared to what, exactly? Builds that run the current version of the skill?

Compared to picking a skill in the same slot that don't passively increase dps. Making a summon permanent simply requires you to cast it once and then it keeps piling its damage on top of what you do with 0 input. How is this still not clear for you?

46 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I can make some pretty decent guess about how "good" those "builds" are.

Make it then. Because you've just said you didn't claim anything like "(...)slotting a different elite skill makes the build automatically "very bad" and deal 4k dps (...)", but now you're back to saying... what exactly? Because the usage of quotes around "good" and "builds" makes it seem like you're back to thinking swapping elite skill to provide passive dps somehow makes the whole build bad again? If that's not what you're saying then what is it?

46 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Hint: it won't be a passive increase of dps to any decent build, because no decent build would run that skill.

Yes, it will be a passive increase in dps. And you're probably confusing "decent" with meta.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Compared to picking a skill in the same slot that don't passively increase dps.

So? How changing the skill that does greater dps to one that does lower dps can ever be an increase in dps? Because i seem to be missing something.

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Making a summon permanent simply requires you to cast it once and then it keeps piling its damage on top of what you do with 0 input. How is this still not clear for you?

Yes. But that's only an increase over a skill that did lower damage before. Or one that has never actually been used.

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Make it then. Because you've just said you didn't claim anything like "(...)slotting a different elite skill makes the build automatically "very bad" and deal 4k dps (...)", but now you're back to saying... what exactly? Because the usage of quotes around "good" and "builds" makes it seem like you're back to thinking swapping elite skill to provide passive dps somehow makes the whole build bad again? If that's not what you're saying then what is it?

You're the one that seem to think that this skill will be used by people that apparently either ran an absolute worst elite they could choose, or selected an active elite and never actually used it. All those are trademarks of people that either play badly, or make, well, let's call it "highly inefficient" build choices. Or both.

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yes, it will be a passive increase in dps. And you're probably confusing "decent" with meta.

No. I am assuming someone picking that skill is not concerned about doing good damage at all. They are concerned primarily about aestethics of having a cool pet.

In short, your "dps increase" will be an actual increase only to people that run very bad builds, and as such have "average" levels of dps at best. So somewhere around 4-6k. At that level a small dps increase, passive or not, is pretty much irrelevant, and does not matter balance-wise. Anyone else will already be running far better elite choices.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Drakz.7051]

People don't like it when you ruin their meta build (Taken from a website) by balancing things to go from 1/10 to like 5/10. 🤣