Where do Chrono Quick and Alac builds actually work?

[Levetty.1279]

14 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Just so you know, we can tell when you're replying with multiple accounts as the typing style remains the same and everything but your main have low post counts and all lack icons/signatures/etc.

Also Elvis is hanging out with Tupac in Antarctica and Anet are actually lizard people.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:52 PM, Alsandar.7420 said:

In WvW I switch to an alac build to speed up siege. That’s it.

 

Once we’re inside I switch back to boonstrip support, which is painful because boonstrip just keeps getting nerfed.

 

In my massive WvW guild (we play 3 hours 6 days/week) there are 1-3 chronos. I’m the only chrono main, meaning it’s all I play.

At risk of derailing the thread, what do you mean by "switch"

Boonstrip support is an alac build nowadays. Unless you are going chronophantasma and signet of ether for disenchanter.  But with the nerfs its not going to be more rips/second than null field unless you have alacrity from another source.

[Ashford.8540]

On 11/12/2022 at 11:33 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 Mesmers have the widest toolbox in the game.  

Let's test that theory

try to enter any meta group and the answers I bet you hear is

"Well as a chrono you provide quickness/alac BUUUUUUUT mech/FB does it better"

"well virt provide alot of damage BUUUUUUUT no boons so pass"

"well mirage provides SOME alac buuut since your nerfed mech has better 100% uptime"

Mesmer has no place in any meta.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

12 minutes ago, KillaFin.9302 said:

Let's test that theory

try to enter any meta group and the answers I bet you hear is

"Well as a chrono you provide quickness/alac BUUUUUUUT mech/FB does it better"

"well virt provide alot of damage BUUUUUUUT no boons so pass"

"well mirage provides SOME alac buuut since your nerfed mech has better 100% uptime"

Mesmer has no place in any meta.

The "meta groups" I see stack virts.  But, since I do stuff more casually now, the response to when I bring a mesmer into a casual strike/fractal/raid is... utter crickets.  

[Varis.5467]

8 hours ago, KillaFin.9302 said:

Let's test that theory

try to enter any meta group and the answers I bet you hear is

"Well as a chrono you provide quickness/alac BUUUUUUUT mech/FB does it better"

"well virt provide alot of damage BUUUUUUUT no boons so pass"

"well mirage provides SOME alac buuut since your nerfed mech has better 100% uptime"

Mesmer has no place in any meta.

You have pretty much spelled it out for those who can't quite comprehend what would be the reality of the mesmer class as a whole. 

 

I don't care if the mesmer class is 'unique' or has the 'widest' tools. If your uniquely 'wide' role as a mesmer is outperformed by various other classes in any content where your build and set up actually matter at the slightest, you are uniquely useless and redundant at best. And if by any chance you might be accepted in said content, it is not because "mesmer is fine, you all just gotta L2P"; you are being tolerated out of kindless while they could have kicked you and replace you with any of the aforementioned classes. 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by xxXLightningXxx.8476
Typos

[Mell.4873]

21 hours ago, KillaFin.9302 said:

Let's test that theory

try to enter any meta group and the answers I bet you hear is

"Well as a chrono you provide quickness/alac BUUUUUUUT mech/FB does it better"

"well virt provide alot of damage BUUUUUUUT no boons so pass"

"well mirage provides SOME alac buuut since your nerfed mech has better 100% uptime"

Mesmer has no place in any meta.

What if you don't want to play Mechanist or Firebrand but still want to support?
Your logic only works if people switch class to play these roles.

Elementalist, Revenant, Mesmer, Engineer all have Supports that can do both Alacrity and Quickness, Playing anyone is the best.

PS, My understanding is Willbenders kit means it cant provide 100% Alacrity uptime, yet.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Erick Alastor.3917]

Where do Chrono Quick and Alac builds actually work?
A: On paper. Chrono dps buildup is too annoying to deal with compared to its alternatives.

[Varis.5467]

3 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said:

Where do Chrono Quick and Alac builds actually work?
A: On paper. Chrono dps buildup is too annoying to deal with compared to its alternatives.

Work harder, get less. Chrono in 2022 lmao.

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said:

Where do Chrono Quick and Alac builds actually work?
A: On paper. Chrono dps buildup is too annoying to deal with compared to its alternatives.

The only reason it's bad is becouse you have to preform a rotation to provide boons most other Quickness and Alacrity providers can click one skill. 

[mungozen.2379]

So post Nov 29 update and none of the build sites show Chrono Quick or Alac builds as being meta or better than viable. Is this correct, no big brain players are making Chrono support work in any game mode?  

[Nezekan.2671]

On 12/9/2022 at 3:59 AM, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

So post Nov 29 update and none of the build sites show Chrono Quick or Alac builds as being meta or better than viable. Is this correct, no big brain players are making Chrono support work in any game mode?  

Quickness Chrono is good when condi damage is disfavored, but that's about it. It's also good when you need someone to tank with quickness. I always do this for my guild in Deimos and Xera fights.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Ombras.2853]

On 11/20/2022 at 5:31 AM, Ashford.8540 said:

Let's test that theory

try to enter any meta group and the answers I bet you hear is

"Well as a chrono you provide quickness/alac BUUUUUUUT mech/FB does it better"

"well virt provide alot of damage BUUUUUUUT no boons so pass"

"well mirage provides SOME alac buuut since your nerfed mech has better 100% uptime"

Mesmer has no place in any meta.

Not sure why some people feel compelled to speak lies every post.

I agree that Chrono in PvE isn’t in a great spot. Even after the recent patch, what it does is simply not enough even if we were to take into account only golem rotations, whilst in actual games those rotations are impractical.

But Virtuoso is literally the best Dps in the game at the time being, not on the golem, in the actually games. NOBODY will tell you pass to playing Virtuoso, NOBODY. Alac Mirage is also literally the superior spec in a handful of wings, so it’s another fat lie.

PvE problem is about Chronomancer, not Mesmer.

 

Other modes? Yes, there are much, much larger issues. But since you addressed PvE, those are fat lies, again. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Ombras.2853

[Nezekan.2671]

3 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Not sure why some people feel compelled to speak lies every post.

I agree that Chrono in PvE isn’t in a great spot. Even after the recent patch, what it does is simply not enough even if we were to take into account only golem rotations, whilst in actual games those rotations are impractical.

But Virtuoso is literally the best Dps in the game at the time being, not on the golem, in the actually games. NOBODY will tell you pass to playing Virtuoso, NOBODY. Alac Mirage is also literally the superior spec in a handful of wings, so it’s another fat lie.

PvE problem is about Chronomancer, not Mesmer.

 

Other modes? Yes, there are much, much larger issues. But since you addressed PvE, those are fat lies, again. 

Mirage is nerfed though. Being good at two bosses now.

The issue with Mesmer players is not the dps. Quickness and Alacrity roles, whether coming from mirage or Chrono are rather scuffed, especially compared to other providers of these boons. Mirage's alacrity uptime is very fragile and it's taken for the damage. A single interruption means alac uptime will go down, whereas Mech does not have this problem. Mesmer has to be in combat, hitting things, and even then the alac uptime is low. Alac mirage is notorious for having low alac uptime.

[Ombras.2853]

Again, you are speaking without even playing the spec in that specific content.

Mirage is heavily nerfed in PvP games with this patch, due to the need of having 3 clones at all times. In PvE that’s actually a buff, since instead of pulsing 2,5 sec of Alac per attack you now pulse 4 sec. Mirage used to run Ritualist gear because of this issue, now it reverted to full Viper due to not needing the improved boon anymore. It’s still good (actually better, a lot) against the same bosses it was good against before.

Ofc it’s not like you HAVE to use Mirage against those, but IT IS still the best performing spec in the game vs them.

[Nezekan.2671]

55 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Again, you are speaking without even playing the spec in that specific content.

Mirage is heavily nerfed in PvP games with this patch, due to the need of having 3 clones at all times. In PvE that’s actually a buff, since instead of pulsing 2,5 sec of Alac per attack you now pulse 4 sec. Mirage used to run Ritualist gear because of this issue, now it reverted to full Viper due to not needing the improved boon anymore. It’s still good (actually better, a lot) against the same bosses it was good against before.

Ofc it’s not like you HAVE to use Mirage against those, but IT IS still the best performing spec in the game vs them.

Yes, but again, you have mech. Mirage needs to be in combat to provide alacrity, now more so than ever as randomly ambushing gives so little alacrity now. Anytime there is a downtime in fighting, which many fights have it, alacrity will fall off, even harder than before as you need clones for it now. Previously you could stall for a while by ambushing with staff without target, now the solo duration is too low. You will sill be great in soulless horror and twin largos, but don't forget Mech has confusion as well, so you are not that much better.

Quickness Chrono has the same problem. You must be in combat and attacking, or you can't give quickness.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Nezekan.2671]

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Edited December 18, 2022 by Nezekan.2671
Double post

[draxynnic.3719]

Hahaha. Virtuoso still has phantasms, portal, blink, mimic, mass invis, moa, several boonrip options, projectile hate, focus pulls... basically, everything on core mesmer except that it doesn't have clones and the shatters are different. But apparently it's not a true Scotsman, I mean mesmer, because it doesn't have clones. Despite mesmer players having been asking for exactly that for years before EoD to address the 'I can lose the resource for my profession mechanic if they or their target gets killed' problem. An elite specialisation changes how you play, call the press!

Virtuoso is a mesmer variant. Doesn't matter how much you love clones, something can not have clones and still be a mesmer.

Mirage is still doing okay. Alacmirage is more vulnerable to clone loss now is all. If that's a major concern, adjust your build a bit. Staxe has lost the 'use staff with axe clones' interaction, but full condi mirage is still doing well.

Support chrono is... really, really scuffed. It really needs a proper rework and not... well, not what the unlamented former balance team did. Superspeed and boon rip on skills that require remaining in a small area for those effects to trigger, really?

[Ombras.2853]

2 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Yes, but again, you have mech. Mirage needs to be in combat to provide alacrity, now more so than ever as randomly ambushing gives so little alacrity now. Anytime there is a downtime in fighting, which many fights have it, alacrity will fall off, even harder than before as you need clones for it now. Previously you could stall for a while by ambushing with staff without target, now the solo duration is too low. You will sill be great in soulless horror and twin largos, but don't forget Mech has confusion as well, so you are not that much better.

Quickness Chrono has the same problem. You must be in combat and attacking, or you can't give quickness.

And, again: Mirage is better than Mech against many of these fights. Which isn’t just Largos and SH. As I previously mentioned, 4 sec instead of 2,5 sec is a HuGE buff for PvE Mirage, for the reason you wrote about (downtime during the fights). You now stack alacrity MUCH better. I have been very critical about PvE Alac Mirage before patch due to this issue, now it’s solved.

Sucks that the devs can’t ever make a distinction between game modes, so they basically killed an already crippled Mirage in competitive, but that’s not what we were addressing.

 

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

 

Support chrono is... really, really scuffed. It really needs a proper rework and not... well, not what the unlamented former balance team did. Superspeed and boon rip on skills that require remaining in a small area for those effects to trigger, really?

This.

[Infusion.7149]

Alacrity mirage is pretty garbage in the majority of fractals. You would never willingly use it over mechanist there, it's absolutely terrible against anything that dies quickly and clones can die to incidental AoEs such as flux bomb or last laugh. The auto is reflectable. It's also annoying to play in quick phased fights such as 98CM's Siax and CC consists of the heal skill when traited, Chaos Storm, Signet of Domination on 45 cooldown, and shattering with Diversion which nukes your alacrity generation and damage. In the new EOD strikes it's alright on XJJ (ankka attacks fast) and okay on KO (due to the multi boss phase with virtuoso and willbender): I'd run renegade on Mai Trin for the CC and druid/mech on HT every time.

This could be partially rectified if Arenanet gave warlock a lower cooldown when a target is eliminated , adding back burning on staff onto warlock, or making it an ammo skill in PVE since it is split already to only produce one clone outside of PVE. It also doesn't feel as though warlock does enough damage to warrant casting it, other for clone upkeep. Per the full viper alac mirage log it does 2.1K damage in one cast since 14 casts result in 29K damage and the warlock doesn't output any conditions other than vulnerability.

[Ombras.2853]

Mirage is generally in a good spot in Raids (most of them) and Strikes. In Fractals not that much, but Fractals have lots of issues with group composition, it’s not specifically about Mirage tbh.

[mungozen.2379]

I’ve been trying out some lower level fractals with Heal Alac Chrono and it has been pretty uninspiring. 
 

I can tank anything but offer so little DPS that I can’t kill much. 
 

I can’t die but healing from Wells is super hard to time given the heal is stuck to the wells on a 3 second timer. Inspiration healing via Clones doesn’t do much if anything, as clone generation is pretty poor with this.  The Insp clone heals don’t smooth out for the wells and people are always moving around missing the well heals anyway. As such, people die or are over healed, no sense of healing balance. No sense of accomplishment from being a good healer or healing effectively. 
 

The Alac sharing part is by and large okay.   At least on bosses I can dump all my wells early to stack Alac and then spend the rest of the fight waiting to dump more wells for the team.  
 

Shatters are awful if only due to clone generation being garbage. There is very few times I can pop a 3 clone CS and use it effectively during a boss fight and less so during trash mobs.  The other shatters are rarely used at 3 clones, simply because having 3 clones is a bit of a rarity. 
 

My take is this feels like I am waiting for the team to stack between encounter mechanics. I am aware of encounter mechanics but my primary focus is where is the team standing.  Sometimes preplanning where to drop my wells to ensure I give my team Alac and maybe a heal if they stick around.   This is awful gameplay. Struggling to put circles on the ground where people may or may not actually stand?  
 

It is possible I suck at Chrono after not playing it since pre-EoD but it may also be that the design team has turned chrono into a giant Terd Ferguson with poor design choices on top of poor design choices.  
 

The wells play style sucks, clone generation and shatter usage sucks.     Why does this build feel like I am fighting uphill to do very little. 

[Nezekan.2671]

Power Alacrity Chrono could work in Fractals as replacement to power alac renegade. You have similar dps, more cc and various utilities.

[mungozen.2379]

1 hour ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Power Alacrity Chrono could work in Fractals as replacement to power alac renegade. You have similar dps, more cc and various utilities.

Question, does Heal Quick Chrono work either?  If Heal Alac and Heal Quick Chrono are neither viable then we end up being second tier support to professions who can Heal+. 

[Nezekan.2671]

15 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Question, does Heal Quick Chrono work either?  If Heal Alac and Heal Quick Chrono are neither viable then we end up being second tier support to professions who can Heal+. 

No, heal chrono is not good. So if you want to do alacrity Chrono in fractals, you want to be full damage build that provides alacrity. I recommend mix of Assassin and Diviner gear, so you have 100% crit chance with fury and some boon duration. With this build, you want quickness firebrand that can heal. Good combo. Then you get 3 dps.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[mungozen.2379]

10 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

No, heal chrono is not good. So if you want to do alacrity Chrono in fractals, you want to be full damage build that provides alacrity. I recommend mix of Assassin and Diviner gear, so you have 100% crit chance with fury and some boon duration. With this build, you want quickness firebrand that can heal. Good combo. Then you get 3 dps.

So the takeaway is that Mirage and Chrono offer no viable heal build with Alacrity, or without. Meanwhile, Virtuoso running Illumination has potentially the highest HPS of any Mesmer healer and is less positionally restricted.

My complaint is that being just quickness, just alacrity or just a healer doesn’t appear to be good enough to always get a spot.  I do think that either Alac or Quick support should be tied to viable healers (3 support roles/2 support slots per group).  Even both Alac and Quick could have viable healing builds to allow for players to opt in or out of healing as the group needs. 
 

Perhaps I am wrong about this but why would a group take a support that can only ever offer 1 type of support?