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Reminder to devs that skill balance isn't everything


Riba.3271
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tbh: the whole "class diversity" is just a player dream anyways. Because just as any competetive game, WvW too follows the basic principle of "meta". Players will always pick the best option to have in a comp (even if it is just on paper, and the difference is minimal) over a slightly worse option, and stack them. This is how a metagame works, and there´s nothing you can do about it. The only way to achieve a completely flexible teamcomp, would be that every class would have the EXACT same effectiveness on their position. Which you will never achieve, because different classes work..... well.... different. 

The maximum you can reach (and what ANet also told us is their goal), will be the gap between different classes/speccs be as small as possible. In the end, players will still in majority pick the slightly better class (even if the difference is just less than 1%). 

From a balancing-standpoint, i even makes sense to NOT make all classes equally strong everywhere. It gives ANet the option to "assign" different speccs into different spots in the game, making them strong in one scenario, but weak in a different one (best examples: thieves and rangers. Strong solo roamers, doing well in small groups, but fall off in large scale). Ofc, this can lead to a class being strong in multiple places by adjusting their builds, but it is NOT required for the game to be balanced. 

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17 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

No the pvp combat is hands down the worst in any mmo.

 the pvp combat is fun and fast paced.     <---- thats what you think if you grew up on it, or have endured the first year of actually trying to understand whats going on.

 

https://external-preview.redd.it/wRkCWLxMWVGfh1OABa_jMk3APCjpd1cXBGqwmzVuo40.jpg?auto=webp&s=99c53ca206aee18910af36cb91a7f2410acc6240  <---- and thats how pvp looks to other people that dont play alot of gw2 or are just starting to play.  Please look at the picture... The visual clutter is a mess!!!.... can you name the race of one of the players in this picture? (dont look at the healthbar up top :P) right... you cant. cuz everything is coverd with some blinking star, alot of numbers, or some weird groundfield from scourge, some more random aoe-circles without a animation... do i have to dodge these aswell?! do they hurt!? there is the statue of liberty lying on the ground, and for some reason the necromancer is invisible... or is he just coverd by some aoe!?  who knows...

 

If you play alot, you know how to navigate in this environment, but when you show gw2 pvp to someone that has no clue, they are like.... wtf is going on. Just try and show a friend of yours some pvp footage... they wont have a clue whats going on.  

 

Personally, i LOVE gw2 pvp combat. But i wholeheartedly understand why Justine thinks its bad.... because Its a spammy mess...

❤️OUR SPAMMY MESS ❤️

 

Edited by Sahne.6950
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1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

If you play alot, you know how to navigate in this environment, but when you show gw2 pvp to someone that has no clue, they are like.... wtf is going on. Just try and show a friend of yours some pvp footage... they wont have a clue whats going on.  

this applies to basically anything tho, and makes the difference between expierienced players and "new" (or "not so expierienced" ) players. 

Also, in red enemy fields, does it really matter to know what exactly it does? Since they´re from the enemy, they will always hurt you in some way or the other. 

The only part i agree is the "intensity" not really clarifying the "threat" of an enemy ability, because the enemy skill indicator doesn´t necessarily tell you how much "threat" (e.g. damage numbers, CC duration etc) you have to expect when getting hit. But again, a skilled player that knows how classes play out, what their strengths, weaknesses and their biggest threat factors are, will know how to judge based on that. Which brings us back full circle to the point "it´s the skill difference created by expierience of the player" (which is neither a thing the game has to counteract, but rather a desireable factor to have).

Edited by Custodio.6134
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See conja weapons that you have to put 1/2 of the effect on the ground to be picked up by other ppl or the ele it self to get the full effect of the skill. Its not fun and often gets in the way. I am not so sure if anet knows how to makes skills fun beyond simple full reworks.

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12 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

One day I will need to research more in into the ad logic that Google and others sell. For me at least, I get Guildwars ads left and right and center which is messed up since I have already bought in. One thing I will give Steam, I wouldn't be surprised if a big part of the move to join Steam wasn't due to the value add that Steam sells as advertising by suggesting to players games that are like ones they already own. So will say your mileage will vary across advertising platforms.

Really? I have literally never seen one ad. And I have been playing since 2016.

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22 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

this applies to basically anything tho, and makes the difference between expierienced players and "new" (or "not so expierienced" ) players.

Also, in red enemy fields, does it really matter to know what exactly it does? Since they´re from the enemy, they will always hurt you in some way or the other. 

(sorry for the textwall, but this is IMPORTANT.)

nope. not what i meant.

its not about "learning whats going on" a game should be visually crisp, and even people that dont have alot of experience should be able to, atleast roughly, tell whats going on.

Just for example think of other "succesful" games, and what made them succesfull.

Counterstrike: Everyone watching can atleast roughly grasp whats going on. If you  1-hit-headshot someone, any viewer can be like: "hey... nice shot". The viewerbase is gigantic and most of them... dont even play Counterstrike.

even some MMO´s get it right. For example Finalfantasy. Did you see pvp matches there?  From time to time i am watching some 3v3 arena videos from that game. Altho i never played it.. I CAN TELL YOU WHATS GOING ON. I can tell you whose winning, who just used that big ultimate. I can tell you whos a noob and is just running in circles.

A Few months back i showed a friend of mine a pvp video that i made, and after 2 minutes of watching he turned to me and said: "I have no clue whats happening." This guy is actively playing other MMO´s... but can not visually grasp what is happening in gw2 because of all the clutter.  Why would anyone start playing gw2 pvp, if they look up a video of it on Youtube and dont even understand whats going on.

I think this is a WAY bigger problem than we realize, because we have gotten so used to it, that we dont really notice it anymore.

https://i.imgur.com/5khJzwU.jpg

https://twitter.com/Julia_CaSsian/status/1301944884002205696/photo/1

Just look at posts on twitter for example. The main complaint that new players have with gw2 isnt balancing,...... it is VISUAL CLUTTER. Just look at the comments on those posts... people comment stuff like:

- "I stopped at You liking GW2...   ...you like Visual Gore and Clutter?"

-"You have to make huge compromises to even play it properly without clutter." (hes talking about turning everythign to verylow setting)

-"Yeaaaaah... I had the same issue when I played. It drive me nuts." (this guy literally quit because of it)

Thats what people from the outside, think of gw2 and its combatsystem. Spammy and visualy cluttered.

 And i think that is a big problem when it comes to growing PvP/WvW playerbase. That is also a reason why esposts failed, cuz gw2 isnt pleasant to watch.

Gw2 simply did NOT age well... 10 years ago visibility like this was acceptable. But the standards have risen a TON. I am not sure if some of you are also active in other games forums... but they are literally making jokes about gw2 everytime it comes to visual clutter....  https://forums.newworld.com/t/for-those-disappointed-with-the-void-gauntlets-animations/538148

 

 

"Also, in red enemy fields, does it really matter to know what exactly it does? Since they´re from the enemy, they will always hurt you in some way or the other."

Yup!!! and thats exactly what im saying. You have learned to navigate in this environment. You just avoid those red circles at all cost, because you know they hurt. But sometimes its a staff elementalist water5, which is a GIGANTIC field. You dont see a animation... so you just run out of the Waterfield because you see the red aoe-circle, think it will hurt you.

But the real question should be:  "WHY ARE THERE RED CIRCLES WITHOUT A ANIMATION???" Why is there stuff on the ground, that even a guy with hundereds or thousands of hours, cant identify at first sight. You cant tell what those groundfields are... and you have THOUSANDS of hours in this game. Even when looking at this screenshot for a literal hour, you wont be able to tell what those random red circles wihtout animation are. Now imagine a noob trying to grasp what those are in the midst of a teamfight....

If we now look at WvW with its Zerg vs Zerg fights, all of those problems are ten times worse. Id say from the 100 Aoe Fields that every zerg is laying down during a bomb, only 5 of those have a animation. The other Aoe´s are just A LOT of red circles.

Do you see the problem?   In my humble opinion, the lack of visual clarity is the biggest problem that gw2 has.

 

While i LOVE pvp/wvw and gw2 in general, i can very much understand why some people say its hot garbage.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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On 11/13/2022 at 5:55 PM, Riba.3271 said:

There was dozens of skill balance patches in past years, but WvW still has same problems where people just camp openfield and don't find objectives fun to fight in anymore.

 

Maybe it is time to start tuning objective hitpoints, siege damage, upgrade times, claim buff, supply amount, lord hitpoints? The stuff you haven't even touched since first patch of HoT? In almost 7 years...

 

So you had massive patch that changed everything, and you got it right on the first time..? Ok.. Maybe just spend a day or two to dibble some numbers in the code to see if you can return the times when commanders liked to lead all day and scouts existed while having constant action.

Reroll every single thing anet has done in wvw since HoT. I mean, if players who joined the game after HoT launch, got a taste of what wvw use to be like AND should be like. I'm certain we would get

the same kind of quality content us veterans were us too 👍😊

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1 hour ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Reroll every single thing anet has done in wvw since HoT. I mean, if players who joined the game after HoT launch, got a taste of what wvw use to be like AND should be like. I'm certain we would get

the same kind of quality content us veterans were us too 👍😊

True, people just do not understand how intense and competitive WvW was since they never saw it.

 

There are lot of changes that should stay in the game tho, like reducing amount of tiers (but not with 2 servers together), 1-up-1-down matchmaking, guild missions, rewards, squads and skirmish system. So they did really good changes too.. Just issue is that all tedious garbage to play against/around like 4000 supply borderlands, claim buff stats, T3 SM in 3 hours, diffent maps as home border, shield gens, transfers to high tier full servers with 500 gems, banner/stealth/airship tactics and gliding in combat which should be just gone.

Edited by Riba.3271
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I strongly agree with @Sahne.6950.  The visual clutter is indecipherable and, worse, the ever-increasing importance of boons makes very small elements of the UI extremely critical to understanding a fight.  On top of that, skills that have the same animation may or may not do this or that thing depending on traits/runes/etc. and that feels like a much bigger deal in GW2 because boons and condis are so huge.  To truly understand PvP you have to really study it...and I just don't think the payoff is really there.

 

Thus, IMO, GW2 combat is great for PvE but not what I'd hope for in terms of PvP.  Depth is good, but it requires clarity.  GW2 depth feels hollow anyway.

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On 11/14/2022 at 2:43 PM, Justine.6351 said:

No the pvp combat is hands down the worst in any mmo.

Agreed. Too much mobility and sustain. Can't set up kill windows because stun breaks have shorter CDs than CC and do multiple things while there is so many of them while CC ONLY CC's.

I've seen multiple specters instantly teleport out of a fight so far that they disappear from draw distance within 3 seconds. That's unplayable.

It's just a mindless button mashing spam fest.

Edited by Kozumi.5816
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1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

True, people just do not understand how intense and competitive WvW was since they never saw it.

 

There are lot of changes that should stay in the game tho, like reducing amount of tiers (but not with 2 servers together), 1-up-1-down matchmaking, guild missions, rewards, squads and skirmish system. So they did really good changes too.. Just issue is that all tedious garbage to play against/around like 4000 supply borderlands, claim buff stats, T3 SM in 3 hours, diffent maps as home border, shield gens, transfers to high tier full servers with 500 gems, banner/stealth/airship tactics and gliding in combat which should be just gone.

I think Anet's biggest mistake during those HoT days was rolling out so many big changes all at once, coupled up with incredibly unclear communication as to what was actually in store for players. I understand that they had to change things because there were indeed issues, but it would have been smarter if they pushed one (smaller) thing, gave it time to see how players responded and how it affected the game mode, then reacted appropriately (whether it's to continue with the next bigger change, or scrap/tweak the current one, etc.). A lot of people around that time saw the world linking as a beta test. IIRC, they communicated that we were going to test it out, give it time, then decide based on player feedback through another poll whether it should become permanent. That poll never happened and it became permanent anyway. At the time, it felt like there was no room to recognize which solution actually worked and which didn't, because of how many things they did all at once.

 

So yeah, I agree with the sentiment that they should roll back a lot of the changes they've made, and perhaps this time, make more incremental changes with clear communication and actual consideration of player feedback. Though I don't think they'll ever roll anything back that much, I just hope they'll make changes much differently this time around.

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3 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Agreed. Too much mobility and sustain. Can't set up kill windows because stun breaks have shorter CDs than CC and do multiple things while there is so many of them while CC ONLY CC's.

I've seen multiple specters instantly teleport out of a fight so far that they disappear from draw distance within 3 seconds. That's unplayable.

It's just a mindless button mashing spam fest.


Specters are a thief class though. Disengaging in fights is one of their core traits for also being one of the squishiest classes. I know it can be annoying to fight against (thieves and mesmers have been the bane of my wvw existence since launch lol), but that's part of their class mechanics and learning how to counter them isn't impossible either. At least for the moment. There were times when they weren't, but Anet did make necessary changes for those.

 

The game's mobility and fast-paced aspects is one of the consistent praises I've seen regarding this game and it's what sets it apart from a lot of other mmo's that came out around the same time.. ones whose combat was slower and cast times that kept you rooted were the norm. I think even today, the only other game I hear mentioned regarding fast paced combat is BDO. However, I can definitely agree that some qualities have become bloated (re: sustain, cc's). I love the build diversity present in GW2 but I'd definitely like to see some aspects toned down. I'd be interested in how they'd do it though, without paring things down too much.

 

On 11/16/2022 at 12:26 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

(sorry for the textwall, but this is IMPORTANT.)

nope. not what i meant.

its not about "learning whats going on" a game should be visually crisp, and even people that dont have alot of experience should be able to, atleast roughly, tell whats going on.

even some MMO´s get it right. For example Finalfantasy. Did you see pvp matches there?  From time to time i am watching some 3v3 arena videos from that game. Altho i never played it.. I CAN TELL YOU WHATS GOING ON. I can tell you whose winning, who just used that big ultimate. I can tell you whos a noob and is just running in circles.

 

A Few months back i showed a friend of mine a pvp video that i made, and after 2 minutes of watching he turned to me and said: "I have no clue whats happening." This guy is actively playing other MMO´s... but can not visually grasp what is happening in gw2 because of all the clutter.  Why would anyone start playing gw2 pvp, if they look up a video of it on Youtube and dont even understand whats going on.

I think this is a WAY bigger problem than we realize, because we have gotten so used to it, that we dont really notice it anymore.

 

Just look at posts on twitter for example. The main complaint that new players have with gw2 isnt balancing,...... it is VISUAL CLUTTER. Just look at the comments on those posts... people comment stuff like:

- "I stopped at You liking GW2...   ...you like Visual Gore and Clutter?"

-"You have to make huge compromises to even play it properly without clutter." (hes talking about turning everythign to verylow setting)

-"Yeaaaaah... I had the same issue when I played. It drive me nuts." (this guy literally quit because of it)

Thats what people from the outside, think of gw2 and its combatsystem. Spammy and visualy cluttered.

 
And i think that is a big problem when it comes to growing PvP/WvW playerbase. That is also a reason why esposts failed, cuz gw2 isnt pleasant to watch.

Gw2 simply did NOT age well... 10 years ago visibility like this was acceptable. But the standards have risen a TON. I am not sure if some of you are also active in other games forums... but they are literally making jokes about gw2 everytime it comes to visual clutter....  https://forums.newworld.com/t/for-those-disappointed-with-the-void-gauntlets-animations/538148

 

But the real question should be:  "WHY ARE THERE RED CIRCLES WITHOUT A ANIMATION???"

 

 

I played FFXIV for a little bit. I didn't play pvp but I did run raids, wherein the population of players in the instance would be comparable with that of zergs in WvW... and I can tell you that they have visual clutter of their own. I had no idea what was happening because it was simply a sea of colors. I will say that there's still a nice difference between how they both look, even though both can be visually cluttery. To me, the colors in GW2 aren't quite right. It's like when you're editing something and put HDR filter on it? That's the best way I can describe it. Things are both dull and too bright at the same time somehow. Their latest graphics update has helped that a lot, but it's still not enough in my opinion. It's one of the big reasons why I'm rooting for a GW3 honestly, because I'd love to see this game world in much better graphics.

 

I've seen quite a few complaints on GW2's clutter from other forums, and actually contributed to some of them lol But they mostly revolved around infusion effects. If we're going to say that red circles shouldn't be a thing or that everything should have animations on them, how do you think they're going to do that without adding even more to the visual clutter that people apparently despise, especially with the current engine? Like you mentioned, the game didn't age well in terms of visuals. I don't think that will be helped by adding more animations unless they get an upgrade. I agree with the original sentiment, but I also don't think we have a good solution to it at this point. Again, unless they do a major overhaul.

I just like to imagine this game in something like UE5... I'd be so happy when/if that happens. Then, I think they could definitely do something similar to that of FF14's. Lots of colors, but with a good amount of clarity.

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4 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Agreed. Too much mobility and sustain. Can't set up kill windows because stun breaks have shorter CDs than CC and do multiple things while there is so many of them while CC ONLY CC's.

I've seen multiple specters instantly teleport out of a fight so far that they disappear from draw distance within 3 seconds. That's unplayable.

It's just a mindless button mashing spam fest.

or the catalyst that has perma stability for existing

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3 hours ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

If we're going to say that red circles shouldn't be a thing or that everything should have animations on them, how do you think they're going to do that without adding even more to the visual clutter that people apparently despise, especially with the current engine?

I know other games, that show the skill icon inside the AoE. So you can clearly tell what it is.

I think in gw2, things like the shadowportal have it already.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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10 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Reroll every single thing anet has done in wvw since HoT. I mean, if players who joined the game after HoT launch, got a taste of what wvw use to be like AND should be like. I'm certain we would get

the same kind of quality content us veterans were us too 👍😊

 

You make it sound like we have had a ton of changes. Please enumerate all these changes since HoT, outside of class changes, not sure what you refer to. 

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7 hours ago, Sviel.7493 said:

 On top of that, skills that have the same animation may or may not do this or that thing depending on traits/runes/etc. and that feels like a much bigger deal in GW2 because boons and condis are so huge.  To truly understand PvP you have to really study it...and I just don't think the payoff is really there.

 

The worst things is, when your fighting a elementalist for example, and you have to first findout if he is condi or not.

The same ele skill will always apply those 2 burnstacks. If he is marauder... they wont hurt.....   if he is cele or something... they will hurt...        Both look exactly the same.... the only way to find out.... is to tank a burntick and keep a close eye at the damagesplat.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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55 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

You make it sound like we have had a ton of changes. Please enumerate all these changes since HoT, outside of class changes, not sure what you refer to. 

I tried looking up a list of all the changes they made and have come up short, save for people in forums highlighting comments and some vague announcements. I was hoping I'd actually find it in the wiki (as they typically have changes listed on there, don't they?). In any case, what I'm saying is, it's hard to enumerate all the changes made but we know full well those changes did happen. Big things were the world linking and changes to how match-ups were made. Others were the addition of the reward track (I don't think anyone complains about this one though lol), addition of the desert borderlands, gliding and mounts, changes to siege, pretty sure PPT scoring was changed too (but I can't find any substantial evidence on this one, just something I vaguely remember so take that with a bucket of salt). Some of these were big changes, especially the match ups and world linking, which were meant to address issues that-- as a lot of us tried to point out back then --in the end didn't resolve those issues and actually caused other problems instead.

Before HoT, WvW was mainly needing attention. We felt like the forgotten child. The biggest things people wanted were the lack of rewards, and that matches were stale. These at least were the concerns of my server and others we communicated with. There were also bugs to be fixed, of course, that's nothing new. But it was far from feeling like a fuster cluck of messes like it does now, wherein there seems to be so much more issues than Anet can ever try to resolve. I can understand why people feel a roll back to "simpler times", if you will, would be the best way to sort these issues out. Back when the problems were a bit clearer, more concise.

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1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

The worst things is, when your fighting a elementalist for example, and you have to first findout if he is condi or not.

The same ele skill will always apply those 2 burnstacks. If he is marauder... they wont hurt.....   if he is cele or something... they will hurt...        Both look exactly the same.... the only way to find out.... is to tank a burntick and keep a close eye at the damagesplat.

Wait. Are you saying that the animation for every skill should change depending on the type of armor being used? I feel like that is a bit too much to ask for. There's so many gear combinations out there at this point, and a comparable amount of skills per class. To ask that each skill should look differently based on whether a person is wearing zerker or soldiers is on unreasonable territory for me. I don't think there's any game out there that has that level of customization, and I think for good reason. Unless I'm misreading what you're implying here?
Edit: re-read your thing and I think I did misread but only slightly. You're wanting them to let you know if the skill is coming from a condition build or a power build? Hopefully I'm understanding that correctly this time. Which to me is still too much. Hybrids also exist. I run cele but I'm using power-based weapons and focus on direct damage. I don't think we can expect the game to account for these details more than it already does. And I feel like paying attention to how your health is affected, which therefore lets you know what kind of damage this person is dealing, is a very sensible thing to expect out of players engaged in combat.
I still feel like I'm misunderstanding the implication here, if so, I'm sorry. I'm running on low sleep but invested in this topic lol

Edited by meerfunkuhtron.9725
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46 minutes ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

Wait. Are you saying that the animation for every skill should change depending on the type of armor being used? I feel like that is a bit too much to ask for. There's so many gear combinations out there at this point, and a comparable amount of skills per class. To ask that each skill should look differently based on whether a person is wearing zerker or soldiers is on unreasonable territory for me. I don't think there's any game out there that has that level of customization, and I think for good reason. Unless I'm misreading what you're implying here?
Edit: re-read your thing and I think I did misread but only slightly. You're wanting them to let you know if the skill is coming from a condition build or a power build? Hopefully I'm understanding that correctly this time. Which to me is still too much. Hybrids also exist. I run cele but I'm using power-based weapons and focus on direct damage. I don't think we can expect the game to account for these details more than it already does. And I feel like paying attention to how your health is affected, which therefore lets you know what kind of damage this person is dealing, is a very sensible thing to expect out of players engaged in combat.
I still feel like I'm misunderstanding the implication here, if so, I'm sorry. I'm running on low sleep but invested in this topic lol

your missing the point still...   Lemme try again! 😃

 

I think its weird, that there is no clear indication of how much damage a condition will do to you.

A burnstack always looks the same on your Statusbar, however it can range from doing 100 dps to 2000 dps. 

In other games, you can clearly tell if some effect on you is gonna hurt or not, be it, via diffrent collored icons, or even a -xxx health/second counter next to your hp bar that will tell you how much hp you are gonna loose on the next tick.

 

The whole conditiongame needs a overhaul, because right now there is no way to tell if those 6 bleedstacks on you are gonna tickle or melt you, except when you purposefully tank one Bleedtick to find it out.   That shouldnt be the case.  

 

6 bleedstacks should always hurt the same as other 6 bleedstacks. You have to be able to look at your statusbar and be like: kitten! i need to cleanse that.  or kitten, i dont have to cleanse those at all.

Right now, there is no way to tell.

 

I proposed to change the condition game to the following:    A bleedstack will always damage you for a certain ammount.  for example 1 bleedstack  = 200 hp/second damage. 1 burnstack = 400hp/second.

This way you can always clearly see how much damage you are gonna get by simply looking at the number next to the burnicon.

If your build is now running Conditiondamage, The ammount of burnstacks that your applying with certainskills will rise.       For example a marauderbuild will apply 1 burnstack. And someone running Trailblazer will apply 3 with the same skill.

This would bring some much needed clarity to the whole Cleanse<->Condition gaming.

i hope that made it more clear.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

your missing the point still.

 

I think its weird, that there is no clear indication of how much damage a condition will do to you.

A burnstack always looks the same on your Statusbar, however it can range from doing 100 dps to 2000 dps. 

In other games, you can clearly tell if some effect on you is gonna hurt or not, be it, via diffrent collored icons, or even a -xxx health/second counter next to your hp bar that will tell you how much hp you are gonna loose on the next tick.

 

The whole conditiongame needs a overhaul, because right now there is no way to tell if those 6 bleedstacks on you are gonna tickle or melt you, except when you purposefully tank one Bleedtick to find it out.   That shouldnt be the case.  

 

6 bleedstacks should always hurt the same as other 6 bleedstacks. You have to be able to look at your statusbar and be like: kitten! i need to cleanse that.  or kitten, i dont have to cleanse those at all, they are gonna tick for 200 damage/second. 

Right now, there is no way to tell.

Ok, so you're talking about their indicators as opposed to how the skills looked, which is what I thought you were saying in the other comment. Which I'm glad you're not because frankly, that would be ridiculous lol.

I am trying to think of other games where the status indicators on your bar changes based on how deadly they are, and I can't come up with any. Not that I'm saying they don't exist, but rather give an example? 'Cause I can see what you mean, but I honestly don't think it's that common in other games either.

And as much as I think this can be helpful, I feel like there's enough tells in the game for this. If I get condi-bombed, there's a high chance I'm playing against a condi build. If the bleeding tick is removing a good amount of my health, then it's a condi build and I cleanse before it shaves off the rest of my health. Like I said earlier, paying attention to how our health is affected by the statuses we receive is a very reasonable expectation from players in active combat like this. A small amount of experience on the field can help you discern how to properly react to these situations and I feel like learning these things isn't that big of an ask.

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I do not believe conditions were ever intended to function as a primary DPS.  Back in the day, there was a cap of 25 bleed stacks.  They couldn't do a More Stacks = More Damage thing with a cap on max stacks.  Later, as condis were pushed as an alternative damage source, the cap was removed.

Reworking them to have a flat damage per stack (perhaps with the final stack being partial to avoid forcing flat numbers) would improve clarity somewhat but...it can still swing a fight if you have to spend the opening exchanges figuring out if you need to dodge the attack that applies bleed and immob or if you can just cleanse the immob.

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17 minutes ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

Ok, so you're talking about their indicators as opposed to how the skills looked, which is what I thought you were saying in the other comment. Which I'm glad you're not because frankly, that would be ridiculous lol.

I am trying to think of other games where the status indicators on your bar changes based on how deadly they are, and I can't come up with any. Not that I'm saying they don't exist, but rather give an example? 'Cause I can see what you mean, but I honestly don't think it's that common in other games either.

And as much as I think this can be helpful, I feel like there's enough tells in the game for this. If I get condi-bombed, there's a high chance I'm playing against a condi build. If the bleeding tick is removing a good amount of my health, then it's a condi build and I cleanse before it shaves off the rest of my health. Like I said earlier, paying attention to how our health is affected by the statuses we receive is a very reasonable expectation from players in active combat like this. A small amount of experience on the field can help you discern how to properly react to these situations and I feel like learning these things isn't that big of an ask.

Your repeating what im saying, but somehow you think its acceptable.

"If the bleeding tick is removing a good amount of my health, then it's a condi build and I cleanse before it shaves off the rest of my health."

You shouldnt have to tank someones hit, in order to find out if hes condi or not.  Why do you have to loose a chunck of your hp, in order to find out he is playing with conditions!?

 

Examples of games:  First of all, there is almost no game that has a conditiongame comparable to this. Most games have found out, that DoT effects are very frustrating to fight against.  At any points where DoT´s became the main dps, they got heavily gutted.

 

Examples of games that still have DoTs and a way better indicator if it hurting or not, is ESO.

 

First of all: a certain skill WILL ALWAYS HURT.    There is no power <->Condition stats.  If you are playing a magicka build, there is alot of magicka skills to choose from, some will be straight damage, and some will be dots.   So if you see that specific Dot symbol on your statusbar, you can be sure that you have a dot on you that will hurt and needs to be cleansed. There also isnt  "burn, poison,bleed, yada yada" You see the icon of the skill that hit you. So you can expect how much damage it will do to you, because you can clearly see what spell is affecting you.

Any DoT applied to you WILL ALWAYS HURT. So you have to always cleanse it or expect the damage coming your way.

Furthermore this game has a gazillion of mods, that pretty much anyone is playing with. Those mods are officially allowed by the developers, and i can guarantee you that everyone thats playing pvp is using them. (atleast on pc)  

Those addons specificall trigger a   !!!CLEANSE!!! message in the middle of your screen, should the incoming damage from Dots exceed a specific threshold.  To put it in perspective with gw2. The game will literally shout at you, should the next incoming Conditiontick deal more than 1000 Damage. And if that wouldnt be enough, there is even numbers next to your healthbar indicating how much the DoT´s will do to you in the next second.

The game literally shouts at you saying !!!CLEANSE!!! with a  -1700hp/second indicator next to it.

So while there is DoT´s... the game does a fantastic job at telling you how and when to manage them.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Your repeating what im saying, but somehow you think its acceptable.

I mean, yes, you're right. I definitely find it acceptable. Sure, I found that dying from a bunch of condition damage that I didn't manage to cleanse because I didn't know much about it, was frustrating at first. But I learned that using the resources the game gives me (combat logs, status indicators both for me and my opponent, the tells from their skills, etc.) helps a lot and I enjoy that learning aspect of the game. I like that GW2 tells you enough but doesn't tell you everything. It gives me room to figure things out on my own, and that makes it more engaging for me. I've played ESO for years and I've found that I get bored with its combat, so I'll agree to disagree here because this seems more of a subjective issue.

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2 minutes ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

But I learned that using the resources the game gives me (combat logs, status indicators both for me and my opponent, the tells from their skills, etc.) helps a lot and I enjoy that learning aspect of the game.

The thing is: new players simply dont have all this knowledge. 

They join pvp: They melt to condis, and they quit. 

Main complaint about pvp is the visual clutter and that Conditions are hella overpowered. When in reality... they are not overpowered, but the game does a horrible job at explaining the conditiongame to people. It needs more clarity if we want to keep new players...

 

 

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