Which deadeye changes would you other if you play deadeye

[ClanWars.5746]

 With the upcoming Nov 29 balance patch, in the hope of improving deadeye kneel state it have instead given a bigger nerf to compensate for a uneeded buff. 

[Wolfshade.9251]

Honestly? Just add piercing to rifle. The kneel was fine, it's the projectile blocking by random mobs that completely messed with this spec in Open World.

[Ironhide Wolf.3275]

I am a warrior main who melee's 90% of the time. I rarely use my deadeye, but I do find it kinda fun. So take my input on what I think about this patch with a lil grain of salt...

What I like about this patch for thief:

• Debuffs no longer pulls you out of . Why? I don't think immobilize should dictate the skills you're using.
• All the other weapon updates seem good. Why? Core game thiefs needed some love.

What I don't like about this patch for thief:

• Range debuff feels bad. Why? Being a long range kneeling (Immobilized-Lite) sniper who has the same range as a rifle warrior or any other ranged class doesn't feel good... Also being out-ranged by longbow ranger at longbows 1500 range leaves you open to getting kited with your dumb 75% movement penalty.
• That goofy RP walk is useless. Why? You'll still get rolled in PvP/WvW, You're not sidestepping any mechanics in PvE. This doesn't seem to help anything

My thoughts on your vote suggestions:

• +500 range seems a little excessive. maybe +100-200 tops. Even that could open up a lot of cheeses or game breaking moments in all game modes.
• Prone would add an extra animation that I don't think Anet has avalaible unless there was a skill like that with the old April 1st Commando class. This level of work seems a little unnecessary for a balance patch. Adding crit damage or ferocity when kneeling sounds cool though.
• Marked enemies dealing AOE damage. I really like this idea. Even if it's a grandmaster trait to add a % of outgoing damage per-shot based on malice. Or have a big damage AOE on kill would be awesome. Until specter, it seemed that thief was missing a lot of AOE, especially with deadeye. This one had my vote.

What I think about the patch:

I hope Anet walks this back. I play deadeye when I wanna outrange everything. Killing its range would leave it open to kiting with a ranger, which feels weird to get outranged by arrows. That silly 75% reduced speed RP walk does nothing to improve gameplay with that spec. Unfortunatly with the way Anet rolls out patches, they likely won't be able to do much with this one until AFTER it goes live on servers... However, Anets balance team says that nothing is definitive. They will undo anything that makes a class less fun or broken if they need to. Keep the debuff no longer knocking you out of kneeling though.

- Random warrior main.

 

[Jianyu.7065]

As a once DE main, I don't like any of this. The philosophy of the class needs to be reimagined from the ground up. Period. 

 

It's not a fun class. It is worse with rifles than it is with other weapons and other classes simply do rifle better. So unless the balance team makes DE the best rifle class, as it is advertised, then I won't play it and I believe a lot players feel the same way. 

[ArmoredSarge.9384]

As a once DE main, I concur. The class stopped being fun after many nerfs and I think a complete overhaul is needed now.

[Arc.8247]

Leave it the freaking  way it is. There is no need to change ANYTHING.

[Tails.9372]

Change Silent Scope from this:

Quote

Gain precision. Gain additional precision while wielding a rifle. Enter stealth when you dodge roll with a rifle equipped.

to this:

Quote

Gain precision. Gain additional precision while wielding a rifle. If you're wielding a rifle gain access to Death's Judgment while you have the maximum number of malice stacks.

 

10 hours ago, Ironhide Wolf.3275 said:

+500 range seems a little excessive. maybe +100-200 tops. Even that could open up a lot of cheeses or game breaking moments in all game modes.

Not really, this is nothing unheard of and would basically be on par with what SB LB already has. For PvE you could even go to 3k and there wouldn't be any real issues as the game already has mechanics in place to counteract players attacking mobs that can't fight back.

[Kodama.6453]

11 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Not really, this is nothing unheard of and would basically be on par with what SB LB already has. For PvE you could even go to 3k and there wouldn't be any real issues as the game already has mechanics in place to counteract players attacking mobs that can't fight back.

A ranger does not have the same gap opening/disengage potential as a thief.... which is the entire reason why Anet is reducing the range of the rifle in exchange for the slight mobility buff (by letting them move while kneeling, even with reduced speed).

They talked quite alot about this when deadeye was going to get released. They are really afraid of giving a thief spec with all their mobility tools a long range weapon, hence why they tied it to becoming immobile. A ranger is not in the same ballpark as thief when it comes to escaping.

If they are supposed to increase the range of deadeye's rifle even further than the 1500 it already had, then Anet won't do it unless it comes with additional limiters to deadeye's mobility and/or stealth.

[Tails.9372]

15 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

A ranger does not have the same gap opening/disengage potential as a thief....

You're right, a ranger has even better mobility than a DE has while kneeling (and iirc. also a disengage skill that stealths you on the weapon set) and nobody is talking about increasing the rifle range outside of it. Also, dis/engaging being easier for DE is not a valid argument here as this is how it should be unless you want to buff its staying power to compensate for it.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Tails.9372

[FrancisN.9276]

As a main DE and a game addict (shamelessly admitted) who spends real money on ingame stuff on a regular basis, I feel like this upcoming patch may help cure my addiction and get me away from spending any more money on Arenanet's game nor expansion. Thank you, Arenanet.

[Jumpel.3972]

13 hours ago, ClanWars.5746 said:

With the upcoming Nov 29 balance patch, in the hope of improving deadeye kneel state it have instead given a bigger nerf to compensate for a uneeded buff. 

Your poll is a bit rigged lol. You confront a buff/nerf option against nearly only excessive buff.

Would be more fair to confront the change against option like losing range but gain piercing on kneel skill or your aoe option with range loss to or just no change.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Jumpel.3972

[Kodama.6453]

5 minutes ago, Jumpel.3972 said:

Your poll is a bit rigged lol. You confront a buff/nerf option against nearly only excessive buff.

Would be more fair to confront the change against option like losing range but gain piercing on kneel skill or your aoe option with range loss to or just no change.

You get used to it. Most polls I have seen in the forum here have been incredibly biased.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

A ranger does not have the same gap opening/disengage potential as a thief.... which is the entire reason why Anet is reducing the range of the rifle in exchange for the slight mobility buff (by letting them move while kneeling, even with reduced speed).

They talked quite alot about this when deadeye was going to get released. They are really afraid of giving a thief spec with all their mobility tools a long range weapon, hence why they tied it to becoming immobile. A ranger is not in the same ballpark as thief when it comes to escaping.

If they are supposed to increase the range of deadeye's rifle even further than the 1500 it already had, then Anet won't do it unless it comes with additional limiters to deadeye's mobility and/or stealth.

To be fair. They ANET said the game would have no defined traditional classes (Healer/Tank/DPS) when the game came out so things change. BTW that was a BIG selling point for how the game was to be set up. It was breaking traditions. Of course things changed, but change is sometimes good. Path of Fire came out years ago too.

Also I am not disagreeing with the point about movement. You are very correct.

Anyhow in all seriousness. I think a simple compromise is as follows:

1. start kneel stance at max range (1500) for 1s guaranteed - see #2
2.  walking in kneel stance reduces your range to the suggested value (1200)
3. staying still for X amount of seconds (lets say 2.5 seconds) will revert the skills back to (1500). In a way it keeps some of the old behavior while allowing for the change that was suggested.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

7 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

A ranger does not have the same gap opening/disengage potential as a thief.... which is the entire reason why Anet is reducing the range of the rifle in exchange for the slight mobility buff (by letting them move while kneeling, even with reduced speed).

They talked quite alot about this when deadeye was going to get released. They are really afraid of giving a thief spec with all their mobility tools a long range weapon, hence why they tied it to becoming immobile. A ranger is not in the same ballpark as thief when it comes to escaping.

If they are supposed to increase the range of deadeye's rifle even further than the 1500 it already had, then Anet won't do it unless it comes with additional limiters to deadeye's mobility and/or stealth.

 

i grow tired of this argument. maybe that was the case 10 years ago, nowadays everybody got mobility. thief already has a lower health pool to compensate for their mobility and to be fair and while this is a valid concern in general in pvp or wvw who actually cares in pve. Thief or Deadeye could have perma invis and 5sec cd on shadowstep, as long as it doesn’t deal high dmg or brings group utility it is still unwanted in parties

[Doggie.3184]

I just wanted an explosion AoE weapon skill for QoL like other gun users get and for Kneeling to only effect range. IDC about movement during but reduced range while walking like Zero mentioned is fine, especially when moving while kneeled doesn't = still kneeled anyways -.- Pierce is a basic feature everyone else gets too for QoL. Single target bullets feel absolutely awful. It's not just about damage it just doesn't feel fun. People didn't just flock to Engi cuz of giant autobot, the Rifle is just fun to use.

[Abyss.5986]

Remove kneel or make it so if you stand still you get kneel benefits. But you can move anytime. This would make it floow better (maybe.. I think...)

 

Also AOE piercing shots as a baseline is the obvious one. Or q gm trait where shots on you marked targets explode. Or make rifle ricochet :D

 

 

Next survivability.  DIstortion would be my suggestion.

 

Also implement all of them only in pve. I am ok with deadeye beeing guted in pvp wvwv its one of the classes that is frustrating to play against.

 

And change be quick or be killed to make it give 5 man quickness kinda fits I'd say.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by elbalzo.7830

[ASP.8093]

The main change I'd want to see is better Mark management during phased PvE bosses. I think the spec is already pretty fun in WvW, and for SPvP I mostly think Rifle standing #3 needs to be improved so it's not a dead skill. I'm fairly happy with it besides that.

 

The alternatives you're proposing don't strike me as particularly necessary. 1500 range while Kneeling is plenty (1200 is too little). I don't actually have that many problems dealing with trash mobs in PvE.

[Val.7826]

I voted second option, but I actually think that is not really what I want (still, I think 11/29 DE balance is tragically stupid).

My personal vote goes to:

- DE Rifle should pierce; while kneeling you cannot move, like now, and range should be left untouched; increase some malice costs, and add an Endurance regeneration bonus while kneeling

 

I also think that skills while standing up should be more different from those DE has while kneeling, but I have no specific ideas by now

[Bunny.9834]

On 11/14/2022 at 2:32 PM, ArmoredSarge.9384 said:

As a once DE main, I concur. The class stopped being fun after many nerfs and I think a complete overhaul is needed now.

Remember in the live stream when they said they want to make things fun??? 

What happened to that? 

Deadeye and Thief in general has been constantly castrated over the years. It’s so kitten at this point. 

[itspomf.9523]

I choose none of the options.

I'd much rather see Kneel removed completely and rifle's damage and skill effects be normalized between the two sets, while also making the faster projectile velocity baseline.  Currently, rifle is too heavily dependent upon kneeling to warrant actually using the weapon kit, when crappy "meme" builds (like dual pistols) can come remarkably close without the penalties -- particularly with what the "new" balance crew is proposing.

Instead -- and I know this will enrage a few people, but hear me out -- I'd swap out the elite skill (Shadow Meld) for a stance called "Slow Breathing."  For a penalty to Endurance regeneration (yes, I know) of about 25% you gain:  improved Initiative regen (1/3 per second, as per Kneel's original effect), and +300 range on thief projectiles, which now pierce.

The reasoning behind this is that while Kneel wasn't actually a problem to work around -- considering we could dodge roll out of AOEs and attacks -- losing access to Death's Retreat was a pain (even with the forced movement).  This would free up Deadeye to retain its mobility at the expense of fewer dodges, but letting it use its extra Initiative regen to "fake it," while also synergizing with the changes to Shadow Arts.  Moreover, by making rifle use a hybrid between the standard and "kneel" skills, it no longer has such a massive performance penalty for not kneeling, which was the actual core of the problem all along -- and better yet, by making the range adjustment global, this would let pistols and shortbows benefit as well, bringing them up to a whopping 1200 range.

And maybe, just maybe, the lack of "infinite stealth" through the loss of Shadow Meld would get the salty competitive-mode players to calm down a little bit.  Besides, it's hardly useful in PvE and letting Revealed be a strong counterplay in competitive modes might actually make things a bit healthier, there.

But why buff shortbow and pistols?  It's called a deadeye, a highly accurate marksman.  Shouldn't all thief ranged weapons benefit when using the elite spec?  Better yet, this would open up the way for replacing Silent Scope with something far healthier to the spec's rotation, and potentially bolster the argument that the Deadly Aim trait is silly and should get redesigned as well.

Things you probably didn't care about:  the idea behind the name of the proposed Elite stance, as well as its effect, is much the same as what most marksmen would already do:  use slow and regular breathing for timing their shots, to eliminate sway which can foul a shot over distance.  Physically, a lack of oxygenation will begin to degrade muscle performance (due to the anaerobic effects upon the muscles as blood oxygenation levels fall), resulting in a "taxing" feel on the body and increased muscle fatigue.  To experience this yourself, try holding your breath while jogging for a brief distance, then see how much harder it is to recover it when you continue that same pace while breathing normally.

Onto theory crafting, this isn't actually as crazy as it seems.  Spotter's Shot already grants Vigor (provided skill effects were indeed folded together to some degree), which would grant only 1 less Endurance per second while in the stance (or a total of 8.75 per second with Endless Stamina), and the 4 Initiative cost of Death's Retreat means you can shadowstep away "for free" every 12 seconds -- a little bit slower (by 20%) than baseline Endurance regeneration normally allows via dodging.    If you're slotting Infiltrator's Signet, that's another 0.1 Initiative per second, so at 1.4/sec that's down to only 8.6 seconds between activations -- faster than dodging.  Also, Maleficent Seven provides a free 7 Initiative when activated, which is arguably faster to do than waiting and leaves you only a -2 Initiative loss per cycle, so it largely evens out. 

The only thing that would need to be shaken out in actual play is the range adjustment.  The piercing effects of the stance would really just be a general quality of life at a very nominal cost that rifle already largely obviates, and 1200 range pistols with piercing almost brings back the glory days of Ricochet.  Shortbows, meanwhile, could just do with a little love.

Edited November 16, 2022 by itspomf.9523
formatting; added theory crafting

[kash.9213]

14 minutes ago, itspomf.9523 said:

I choose none of the options.

I'd much rather see Kneel removed completely and rifle's damage and skill effects be normalized between the two sets, while also making the faster projectile velocity baseline.  Currently, rifle is too heavily dependent upon kneeling to warrant actually using the weapon kit, when crappy "meme" builds (like dual pistols) can come remarkably close without the penalties -- particularly with what the "new" balance crew is proposing.

Instead -- and I know this will enrage a few people, but hear me out -- I'd swap out the elite skill (Shadow Meld) for a stance called "Slow Breathing."  For a penalty to Endurance regeneration (yes, I know) of about 25% you gain:  improved Initiative regen (1/3 per second, as per Kneel's original effect), and +300 range on thief projectiles, which now pierce.

The reasoning behind this is that while Kneel wasn't actually a problem to work around -- considering we could dodge roll out of AOEs and attacks -- losing access to Death's Retreat was a pain (even with the forced movement).  This would free up Deadeye to retain its mobility at the expense of fewer dodges, but letting it use its extra Initiative regen to "fake it," while also synergizing with the changes to Shadow Arts.  Moreover, by making rifle use a hybrid between the standard and "kneel" skills, it no longer has such a massive performance penalty for not kneeling, which was the actual core of the problem all along -- and better yet, by making the range adjustment global, this would let pistols and shortbows benefit as well, bringing them up to a whopping 1200 range.

And maybe, just maybe, the lack of "infinite stealth" through the loss of Shadow Meld would get the salty competitive-mode players to calm down a little bit.  Besides, it's hardly useful in PvE and letting Revealed be a strong counterplay in competitive modes might actually make things a bit healthier, there.

But why buff shortbow and pistols?  It's called a deadeye, a highly accurate marksman.  Shouldn't all thief ranged weapons benefit when using the elite spec?  Better yet, this would open up the way for replacing Silent Scope with something far healthier to the spec's rotation, and potentially bolster the argument that the Deadly Aim trait is silly and should get redesigned as well.

Things you probably didn't care about:  the idea behind the name of the proposed Elite stance, as well as its effect, is much the same as what most marksmen would already do:  use slow and regular breathing for timing their shots, to eliminate sway which can foul a shot over distance.  Physically, a lack of oxygenation will begin to degrade muscle performance (due to the anaerobic effects upon the muscles as blood oxygenation levels fall), resulting in a "taxing" feel on the body and increased muscle fatigue.  To experience this yourself, try holding your breath while jogging for a brief distance, then see how much harder it is to recover it when you continue that same pace while breathing normally.

I don't think pistols or shortbow need that kind of range, especially shortbow since the arrow would keep traveling.

Kneel has been mostly fine. It will be a little more responsive after the change in pve.

Why take out a fun and interesting mechanic that's also visually dynamic for a bunch of passive boosts? 

Why not take the problematic Stealth aspect from Meld or the Elite slot and put something there that boosts Kneel and actually lean more into the theme? 

[Jumpel.3972]

51 minutes ago, itspomf.9523 said:

I'd much rather see Kneel removed completely and rifle's damage and skill effects be normalized between the two sets, while also making the faster projectile velocity baseline. 

I like kneel on rifle because the skill kit is built around it and feel unique. BUT if they start allowing to move when kneel, at this point just remove it because they will never find a good middle between not enough mouvement speed and too much.  

[stormemperor.3745]

PVP/WVW deadeye, keep everything same

PVE deadeye, increase kneeling range to 1800.

[nopoet.2960]

I would increase maximum range every time you use malice.  It would only affect your target though.  The idea is once you've locked on it's harder for your target to escape.  Mechanically I'd add 20 units per malice spent up to a max of 1800.  It would take 15 malice to get there so really the only thing surviving that would be elites and champs.  PVP your target should be dead before you maxed out.

[UNOwen.7132]

Id remove kneel, and retool the rifle to be specifically a battlerifle, aka how you already play Deadeye in PvP/WvW anyway. Give us a new 5 skill and make double tap not trash.