Temple of the Silent Storm Autocap

[Malus.2184]

Even if this is an Unranked thing only, I would really just want to know how anyone with a functional sense of fairness could think that this mechanic is in any way fun?

The more I play sPvP the less I want to play sPvP due to BS mechanics like these.

If Unranked Conquest is meant as an onboarding mechajnic to get people into Ranked sPvP it's doing a spectacularly bad job at it. If the intent is to scare people away from participating in sPvP it's doing a tremendous job.

Here's the thing. When people do PvP they detest game system randomness. They want to be able to put their skill against another player's skill. Things that increase the amount of points scored are fair as players have some concrete input on their application, a controlled environment. Anything that gives a team an instant advantage just because someone was in the right spot at the right time is the opposite of a controlled environment. And it creates the wrong image of the structure of PvP.

I've never encountered a mechanic that can instantly flip all nodes if used. Spirit Watch has the orb and that can only flip one node or add more points to the total. It having a binary choice of what it gives means that there's acontrolled environmental factor and that it's exclusive with the other choice and it's still nowhere as disruptive as all nodes instantly getting flipped.

[Zuko.7132]

12 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Even if this is an Unranked thing only, I would really just want to know how anyone with a functional sense of fairness could think that this mechanic is in any way fun?

The more I play sPvP the less I want to play sPvP due to BS mechanics like these.

If Unranked Conquest is meant as an onboarding mechajnic to get people into Ranked sPvP it's doing a spectacularly bad job at it. If the intent is to scare people away from participating in sPvP it's doing a tremendous job.

Here's the thing. When people do PvP they detest game system randomness. They want to be able to put their skill against another player's skill. Things that increase the amount of points scored are fair as players have some concrete input on their application, a controlled environment. Anything that gives a team an instant advantage just because someone was in the right spot at the right time is the opposite of a controlled environment. And it creates the wrong image of the structure of PvP.

I've never encountered a mechanic that can instantly flip all nodes if used. Spirit Watch has the orb and that can only flip one node or add more points to the total. It having a binary choice of what it gives means that there's acontrolled environmental factor and that it's exclusive with the other choice and it's still nowhere as disruptive as all nodes instantly getting flipped.

It shouldn’t be an instant advantage. Both teams should contest it.

[Malus.2184]

7 minutes ago, Zuko.7132 said:

It shouldn’t be an instant advantage. Both teams should contest it.

And once the contestion is decided it will be an instant advantage. Something can only be contested for so long before a winner is decided. Just like with the score manipulation items, except a lot more disruptive, in this case.

[Zuko.7132]

1 minute ago, Malus.2184 said:

And once the contestion is decided it will be an instant advantage. Something can only be contested for so long before a winner is decided. Just like with the score manipulation items, except a lot more disruptive, in this case.

Sure if you want to call something that happens after a fight and requires a 3 second channel instant, then ya it’s instant.

[Ragnar.4257]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

And once the contestion is decided it will be an instant advantage. Something can only be contested for so long before a winner is decided. Just like with the score manipulation items, except a lot more disruptive, in this case.

You realise this description applies just as much to nearly all other map mechanics (lord, beast, skyhammer, bell, sword/shield buffs), and, for that matter, applies to regular point-capture as well?

[JunkJunk.8971]

Tell us you are bad at pvp without saying it

[shion.2084]

Alright, to be fair to the OP... if you are new, you might not know that at 8:30 you have to have someone standing in some random cave.   At least the Capricorn map gives you a 20 second warning, or sky hammer lets you know its coming, or the forest warns you about beast refresh.   I don't believe that SS does right?

[shion.2084]

5 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And once the contestion is decided it will be an instant advantage. Something can only be contested for so long before a winner is decided. Just like with the score manipulation items, except a lot more disruptive, in this case.

This is fundamentally untrue.  Many times teams have lost by contesting tranq, because the other team sent just enough people to keep it from getting taken.... whilst there other teammates capped the map.   I've seen it never won before... and the team that invested the most in it lose, even though they'd been winning the match.

Edited November 16, 2022 by shion.2084

[aelska.4609]

This mechanic is actually very well designed and there are thousands of different ways to play it ...

- It is not so difficult to contest, so that a team willing to play it will probably +1 or +2 to get it faster

- You can be ready to instant decap the side nodes if this happen (mid prolly won't be a good idea, as it will be crowded afterwards)

- It can just be a place for endless 1v1, so the game continues 4v4

- ... Or it can be a teamfight place, which gives extreme importance to the "roamer" of the team

- etc.

 

It is not like this buff was a surprise. You know the timer exactly, you have tells everywhere, it is right in the middle of the map for the two teams.

 

[JunkJunk.8971]

It gives you a 30 sec warning.    But god forbid people read the ui

[Bast.7253]

Beasts are a larger complaint for me as people snipe them at 1% and kill steal. I don’t think that’s great design.

 

I think it should be stuck on which team tags it first, not x thief that does nothing all match but decap and wins at the last second because they get 1% damage in. 
 

 

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Bast.7253 said:

Beasts are a larger complaint for me as people snipe them at 1% and kill steal. I don’t think that’s great design.

 

I think it should be stuck on which team tags it first, not x thief that does nothing all match but decap and wins at the last second because they get 1% damage in. 
 

 

Maybe adopt something similar to the smite mechanic from LoL.

First player who attacks the beast gets a special action key, which will instantly deal 5% of the beasts health bar as damage as an additional tool to secure the objective.

Still possible to steal the beast, but the people going for it first have a slight advantage in claiming it.

[Bast.7253]

15 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Maybe adopt something similar to the smite mechanic from LoL.

First player who attacks the beast gets a special action key, which will instantly deal 5% of the beasts health bar as damage as an additional tool to secure the objective.

Still possible to steal the beast, but the people going for it first have a slight advantage in claiming it.

I’d rather it be event contribution/healthbar damage percentage. Maybe even make them worth more similar to bell? I mean they’re already 25 point but if you specifically encourage it as a group based side activity then you’re getting more people off other caps. There could be a strategy behind that that in my opinion would be more engaging than the strategy of just being there to tap the mob or luck out on a gank.

[Kodama.6453]

2 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

I’d rather it be event contribution/healthbar damage percentage. Maybe even make them worth more similar to bell? I mean they’re already 25 point but if you specifically encourage it as a group based side activity then you’re getting more people off other caps. There could be a strategy behind that that in my opinion would be more engaging than the strategy of just being there to tap the mob or luck out on a gank.

I get where you are coming from, but on the other side, making this an entirely mathematic approach might also take away some of the excitement from it.

To use the analogy to LoL once again: Steals are cool, people enjoy to take objectives away from the enemy in the very last moment. Objective steals in LoL like dragon or baron are generally hyped alot. These 25 points here might not be on the same level of reward, but I still think that it is a very fun element to try and take away these points the enemy believed to have secured.

So I think it should still be possible to "tap the mob or luck out". It sucks for the team losing it (steals always suck for them), but I think it still generally adds excitement to that mechanic.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, JunkJunk.8971 said:

It gives you a 30 sec warning.    But god forbid people read the ui

This.

It telegraphs when it's happening.  If you lose tranq and aren't in a position to immediately decap, the only instant advantage is the one presented to your team after multiple silent failures to understand and respond to that mechanic. 

I'm  all for unfair pvp mechanics being removed,  but I'm not moved by "I don't know how this works, and then it punished me for not knowing how it works, please remove it. "

Edited November 17, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Spellhunter.9675]

17 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Anything that gives a team an instant advantage just because someone was in the right spot at the right time is the opposite of a controlled environment.

sPvP is all about beign in the right spot at the right moment. 

It actually takes big amount of game knowledge and decision making.

When you know the game well, it becomes less chaotic/random and more controllable.

[shion.2084]

16 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

Beasts are a larger complaint for me as people snipe them at 1% and kill steal. I don’t think that’s great design.

 

I think it should be stuck on which team tags it first, not x thief that does nothing all match but decap and wins at the last second because they get 1% damage in. 
 

 

I kind of have grown to enjoy the last hit mechanic.  It makes going for the beast a big risk... you want to ensure you understand where the opponents are, and that you can kill the beast quick with coordinated effort... and you want to keep an eye out for an opportunity to steal the opponents attempt.  It takes some thought and coordination to be sure of success.  

I get why it seems unfair that one hit from the end steals all the effort.... but I like the risk /reward trade-off and trying to sneak it in quickly.

[Malus.2184]

On 11/17/2022 at 8:46 AM, Spellhunter.9675 said:

sPvP is all about beign in the right spot at the right moment. 

It actually takes big amount of game knowledge and decision making.

When you know the game well, it becomes less chaotic/random and more controllable.

And you completely missed the point.

Even if you're in the right spot at the right time they'll also be. if it's 5v5 eventually one side will get a minor advantage they can sieze on and once they have that advantage they'll overwhelm the opponent which will give them a massive advantage since it's an ability that sets the pace.

[Malus.2184]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:04 PM, Ragnar.4257 said:

You realise this description applies just as much to nearly all other map mechanics (lord, beast, skyhammer, bell, sword/shield buffs), and, for that matter, applies to regular point-capture as well?

None of those gives an instant cap.

- Using the Skyhammer laser requires you to be on the spot to take advantage else it's something that can be easily dimissed.

- Bell gives an exponential advantage sand can switch who gets it and then they get their own individual set of points. If one side utterly dominates the bell then they would had won anyway, it just makes it go faster.

The lords are only an extra in Legacy and I've seen them have an impact on the match two times I think.

- Etc, etc.

Full ist here and none of them are as impactful or as easy as the Temple one (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Conquest). And yes, it's simple, since eventually one side will win and get an easy advantage. The other big impact conditions are usually a mix of PvE and PvP so one side is vulnerable to being jumped. This has no such thing, it's just players fighting players.

[Malus.2184]

On 11/16/2022 at 3:52 PM, Zuko.7132 said:

Sure if you want to call something that happens after a fight and requires a 3 second channel instant, then ya it’s instant.

Instant as in 'instantanious advantage' instead of 'instant cast.'

[Sahne.6950]

If a team captures a node, both teams should get it. /s

Because being at the right location at the right time shouldnt give a instant advantage. /s

[Ragnar.4257]

54 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

None of those gives an instant cap.

- Using the Skyhammer laser requires you to be on the spot to take advantage else it's something that can be easily dimissed.

- Bell gives an exponential advantage sand can switch who gets it and then they get their own individual set of points. If one side utterly dominates the bell then they would had won anyway, it just makes it go faster.

The lords are only an extra in Legacy and I've seen them have an impact on the match two times I think.

- Etc, etc.

Full ist here and none of them are as impactful or as easy as the Temple one (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Conquest). And yes, it's simple, since eventually one side will win and get an easy advantage. The other big impact conditions are usually a mix of PvE and PvP so one side is vulnerable to being jumped. This has no such thing, it's just players fighting players.

- Capping a node gives an "instant cap" when you finish capping the node (the same way Tranq is "instant" once you finish channeling it). If you don't count capping a node as instant, you can't count channeling Tranq as "instant" either. Have you ever even gone to get Tranq? Are you even aware that it has to be channeled and doesn't happen instantly? If you say that a node can be contested, guess what, so can Tranq. Infact it is significantly easier to contest Tranq, as you don't even have to stand near it, just poke with a ranged attack every few seconds.

- Using Tranquility requires you to be on the spot to take advantage, exactly the same as Skyhammer. Do you even read back what you write to see that it applies just the same?

- No, dominating bell does not mean you've automatically won. Plenty of teams throw by over-committing to bell and leaving nodes in enemy control

I would argue that Bell, Skyhammer, are FAR more impactful than Tranq, because they happen more frequently. An individual Tranq "event" is more impactful, but it only happens once or twice per match and can be easily nullified by a prepared team being in position to back-cap. If you play correctly, losing Tranq can have almost zero negative impact, the same can not be said of Bell.

In the end, there is no particular difference between Tranq and other map mechanics. You can say "no other mechanic gives you a node-cap", well, I can say that "no other mechanic gives you an instant-rez" for Shield, or "not other mechanic gives you increased point-rate" for Stillness. The fact that mechanics are different to each other doesn't mean anything in and of itself.

[Ragnar.4257]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

Instant as in 'instantanious advantage' instead of 'instant cast.'

So, Bell is not an instant advantage? Skyhammer is not an instant advantage? Beast is not an instant advantage?

Just think, for a second, if what you say applies to other mechanics.

[Spellhunter.9675]

2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And you completely missed the point.

Ok. Let me see your "points":

completely fair and predictable mechanic - random;

"someone is in the right spot" - 5v5 teamfigh at lower buff;

wasting a lot of time and losing map control - instant advantage;

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

if it's 5v5 eventually one side will get a minor advantage they can sieze on and once they have that advantage they'll overwhelm the opponent which will give them a massive advantage

- this absolutely can not happen in any other map and only tied to Temple and it's mechanic;

 

And ofc your main point - your audacity to ask for removal of completely fair mechanic because you don't know how and don't want to learn how to play around it.

 

 

 

 

[Avatar.3568]

On 11/16/2022 at 11:05 PM, Bast.7253 said:

Beasts are a larger complaint for me as people snipe them at 1% and kill steal. I don’t think that’s great design.

 

I think it should be stuck on which team tags it first, not x thief that does nothing all match but decap and wins at the last second because they get 1% damage in. 
 

 

Maybe do beast when its save or Not at all