Please remove Downed State from PVP

[Seneca.6319]

I have not seen any other competitive game where if your hitpoints hit 0 you don't die, but you get double the original hitpoints and you can keep fighting. On top of that, the downed states are not even equal. The following 3 scenarios are encountered quite frequently:

 

1. Say I won the fight by a small margin with a warrior or a guardian. If my skills are now all on cooldown obviously it's going to take me some time to get the kill considering double the hitpoints and auto attacking. Stomp MAY or MAY NOT be possible if there are multiple players. In fact, if there are, this situation is even worse because in reality that player hasn't been taken out of the fight as he should have been.

 

2. Say I don't want to fight back, I just want to start the 15 seconds counter immediately because there's no way for me to win the fight. Why do I have to wait to bleed out ? In very close matchups those seconds are precious! And some players, in higher leagues, abuse this to delay when opponents can get back in the fight. 

 

3. I've just downed a player when his teammate appears. Now I am in a 1v2 situation. If I'm facing a Necro, the necro can CC me and also load me up with conditions while being downed. Not to mention that he can siphon life (how crazy is that????), revive himself while causing serious damage. All of a sudden I just lost the battle when in fact I could have easily got a kill (5 points) and maybe escape or get the 2nd kill.

 

My proposal is simple: keep this for PVE and remove it from all competitive games.. If your hitpoints get to 0 it's an insta kill. This is a major game imbalance when you consider that not all downed states are equal and some are overpowered (Necro). In fact, Necro even has a few traits improving the downed state. That is just INSANE!

[Padrion.7382]

I like downstate. I think it's one of the most brilliant concepts in MMO history (no joke). However, there should be a self sacrifice button.

[Seneca.6319]

Just now, Padrion.7382 said:

I like downstate. I think it's one of the most brilliant concepts in MMO history (no joke). However, there should be a self sacrifice button.

PVE is ok but PVP is not, see the points I make about downed states not being equal. 

[Nilkemia.8507]

Digressing slightly, but why isn't this in the PvP section? Perhaps General Guild Wars 2 Discussion gets more views, but it's not as if that part of the forums is as barren as the mode itself...probably.

 

Secondly, assuming downstate is removed, what do we get in place of it?

 

 

[Seneca.6319]

2 minutes ago, Nilkemia.8507 said:

Digressing slightly, but why isn't this in the PvP section? Perhaps General Guild Wars 2 Discussion gets more views, but it's not as if that part of the forums is as barren as the mode itself...probably.

 

Secondly, assuming downstate is removed, what do we get in place of it?

 

 

You get nothing, just be better at not dying in the first place!

 

[Padrion.7382]

20 minutes ago, Seneca.6319 said:

see the points I make about downed states not being equal.

 

Well, professions aren't equal, yet I assume you want to keep them? This seems like a mere balance issue to me.

[Seneca.6319]

Just now, Padrion.7382 said:

 

Well, professions aren't equal, yet I assume you want to keep them? This seems like a mere balance issue to me.

Changing the down state has implications in PVE. I don't want that change. Rather, make everyone equal in PVP by not having down state at all. We are already normalizing stats and gear so...

[Nilkemia.8507]

4 minutes ago, Seneca.6319 said:

You get nothing, just be better at not dying in the first place!

 

That won't matter since I don't play that cesspit of a mode any longer. But I think you'll find it much harder to sell this idea if you're not willing to make any compromises or changes to make sure it doesn't cause additional problems.

 

For example, one post in one of the other threads noted that such a change would likely incentivize people to build in such a way so they can just one-shot players, or pull a combo or "death of a thousand cuts" that achieves the same manner, then rinse and repeat. Now, I don't have any hard data, but I don't doubt the possibility for such instances to occur.

 

Likewise, there are at least a few skills and traits related to downstate that now become useless with it gone. These will all need adjusting if not outright reworking for PvP, which at this point is likely far more effort than it's worth.

 

Ultimately, I'd have to say no. While downstate has its problems and I don't feel it has much use even in PvE anymore, this is not an optimal solution.

[Seneca.6319]

The fact that it MAY be possible to one shot players that's part of a balance across specs, work that is already happening. As per your 2nd point, the game has already diverged between PVE and PVP and downed state is quite useful in end game PVE content so I don't see why that should be changed. In my opinion those traits shouldn't be reworked, rather players will not not use them in PVP but totally fine in PVE content. We already have builds that are different between the various modes so I see this no different. At the end of the dayPVP is a mode where your skill and knowledge of your class should matter the most. Downed state simply favors situations in which you get sort of a "get out of jail" card because you missed your burst or positioned poorly... It promotes a very permissive play knowing that, at least with Necro, Warrior or Guardian (ANet's favorite child), you have extremely high chances of actually winning a duel. Especially if the opponent is a condi build and has now everything in CD.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Seneca.6319

[Ultramex.1506]

en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/124218-downstate-is-a-pve-feature-remove-it-from-pvp/

en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/124261-daily-reminder-that-downstate-is-bad-for-pvp-and-should-be-removed/

Wonder what gonna be brought back from the dead next

Edited November 19, 2022 by Ultramex.1506

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Wow, a downstate thread and no ranger complaints---bravo.  

The only counter point I can think of is actually the number two point you have there, as I feel it is the reason downstate stays for sPvP, because it forces you to think about where you are downed.  If you go down on a point it stays contested until you are defeated--the 'wait and bleed' deal only applies if you are strolling around somewhere off-node.

Downstate is one of those contentious things though because a lot of classes can stomp from stealth, or stomp from stealth and teleport back to where they were (i.e., thief); giving them safer options.  If you are on a class that has to stay visible to stomp, you usually must use a defense skill to secure it.  

Solution may just to be increasing stomp speed.  This would also help where you down someone and 2 people start rezzing so its impossible to finish them without stomping.  

[Seneca.6319]

16 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Wow, a downstate thread and no ranger complaints---bravo.  

The only counter point I can think of is actually the number two point you have there, as I feel it is the reason downstate stays for sPvP, because it forces you to think about where you are downed.  If you go down on a point it stays contested until you are defeated--the 'wait and bleed' deal only applies if you are strolling around somewhere off-node.

Downstate is one of those contentious things though because a lot of classes can stomp from stealth, or stomp from stealth and teleport back to where they were (i.e., thief); giving them safer options.  If you are on a class that has to stay visible to stomp, you usually must use a defense skill to secure it.  

Solution may just to be increasing stomp speed.  This would also help where you down someone and 2 people start rezzing so its impossible to finish them without stomping.  

OMG totally forgot about 2 people rezing and there's nothing you can do about it because some classes simply cannot keep a consistent 5k dps/s to counter it without being a total glass cannon.

As for Ranger, I did not want to start a flame war, but it is absolutely ridiculous. Totally unbalanced. However, removing down state makes everyone equal so we also eliminate the problem of Ranger, no ? 

[Crab Fear.8623]

4 hours ago, Padrion.7382 said:

I like downstate. I think it's one of the most brilliant concepts in MMO history (no joke). However, there should be a self sacrifice button.

warrior main

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Seneca.6319 said:

OMG totally forgot about 2 people rezing and there's nothing you can do about it because some classes simply cannot keep a consistent 5k dps/s to counter it without being a total glass cannon.

As for Ranger, I did not want to start a flame war, but it is absolutely ridiculous. Totally unbalanced. However, removing down state makes everyone equal so we also eliminate the problem of Ranger, no ? 

 

I still think you keep downstate and then up the stomp speed a bit.  

There are too many utilities and traits based around downstate which would become useless if completely removed.

For me, it isn't downstate itself that's the problem--it's rallying.  Rallying should not be a thing, at all because it puts you at a direct disadvantage if you have lower skill players on a team that are always going to downstate.  It's bad enough they are in downstate, worse that they are going to most likely be out for 15 seconds after, and even worse that when they are defeated, they rally someone else.  

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

The only reason im on the "remove downstate" train is because the classes with the most insular builds also have some of the strongest downstates.

 

I don't want to be here because I find downstate and rallying, in their proper places, can be absolutely fun and tension building. 

 

But when that rabid condi build goes down,  then gets to press like 4 seperate buttons to continue dpsing you,  then can actively hard res themselves despite downing well before you, with nothing evcept cleave being able to interrupt it because of a bug that's persisted for ten years-

 

Yeah, you can nuke it.  Idc.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Morwath.9817]

Imagine Downstate gets removed and GW1 Resurection skills come back. In the end of day, whining would just intensify.

[Fueki.4753]

Downstate is a core part of GW2's combat system.

If it's permanently removed from sPvP, we need to demand Arenanet to permanently remove literally everything else that a handful of players dislike.

This includes CC, stealth, teleports, reflects, AI mechanics, conditions, power damage and literally everything else in the combat system.

[Seneca.6319]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Downstate is a core part of GW2's combat system.

If it's permanently removed from sPvP, we need to demand Arenanet to permanently remove literally everything else that a handful of players dislike.

This includes CC, stealth, teleports, reflects, AI mechanics, conditions, power damage and literally everything else in the combat system.

Why would you think that? CC, stealth, reflects, conditions are all part of the fight itself and some classes are built around those mechanics. Down state is simply not part of that. Rally shouldn't even exist, it's absolutely busted in PVP. In a 2v2 fight I can down a player then my teammate gets killed and now I'm in a 1v2 situation and the rallied player has his cooldowns pretty much reset and half of his hitpoints. Uses the heal skill once and it's like he just spawned back. Like seriously, what the hell is that ??? Sorry mate, but I simply cannot find any logic in your comment. In your opinion: either nothing should be changed or completely remove everything. I think you completely missed the point here, the idea is to have equal opportunities for everyone and down state is simply not equal and does not lead to a balanced game where there is a high amount of luck. 

 

Somebody mentioned the Rabid amulet and condi fights. Yes, that is a big problem, it takes an enormous amount of effort to take down a Scourge with Rabid + rune of the undead and then when he's down they can literally revive themselves by hitting you with their 1 skill. If it's a close fight and you get down by the Scourge it's a lost fight because they can now siphon health and you just simply cannot compete with that. 

 

If you cannot see these problems then, please don't take this as an insult, but you have no idea what competitive play means.

[Mazinger.1084]

Downstate is fine... it adds comeback potential and a layer of strategy to late-stage fights.  I agree that some skills in downstate need desperate balancing.  Rallying, however, is a terrible mechanic and needs to be removed for the reasons @Seneca.6319 describes and more.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Seneca.6319 said:

Rally shouldn't even exist,

And that's just your opinion.

Just like my opinion is that the current iteration of Stealth doesn't belong into sPvP because absolute invisibility simply is broken and effectively takes one player out of the equation.

And conditions only need one attribute to function at full capacity, while Power needs three. That's why I think conditions should only be 1/3 as effective as power damage, yet they are far more effective than that.

And there are player that think AI should not be present in sPvP, because it should be exclusively about players fighting each other.

But that's just that: opinions.

Different things being broken in the opinions of different players doesn't change anything about these mechanics being core parts of the combat system.

If they really acted upon individual opinions, they'd need to consider all individual opinions. Thus, they'd need to remove everything. Your opinion does not matter more than my opinion on Stealth and conditions, or anyone else's opinion on any other mechanic. Just like every other mechanic, down state is something to play with and play around.

You simply don't like that layer of combat depth and comeback chance that come with the down state and that's all your comment boils down to.

While I agree that down state needs to be adjusted, completely removing it is not part of such an adjustment.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Seneca.6319]

27 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And that's just your opinion.

Just like my opinion is that the current iteration of Stealth doesn't belong into sPvP because absolute invisibility simply is broken and effectively takes one player out of the equation.

And conditions only need one attribute to function at full capacity, while Power needs three. That's why I think conditions should only be 1/3 as effective as power damage, yet they are far more effective than that.

And there are player that think AI should not be present in sPvP, because it should be exclusively about players fighting each other.

But that's just that: opinions.

Different things being broken in the opinions of different players doesn't change anything about these mechanics being core parts of the combat system.

If they really acted upon individual opinions, they'd need to consider all individual opinions. Thus, they'd need to remove everything. Your opinion does not matter more than my opinion on Stealth and conditions, or anyone else's opinion on any other mechanic. Just like every other mechanic, down state is something to play with and play around.

You simply don't like that layer of combat depth and comeback chance that come with the down state and that's all your comment boils down to.

While I agree that down state needs to be adjusted, completely removing it is not part of such an adjustment.

You need expertise (how long it lasts) for condition damage (how hard your conditions hit) to be at full potential. That's 2 attributes. Seems you totally missed that part. And it's on par with Power and Ferocity (how hard you hit, how hard are you crits). Strike damage is instant, condi needs to build for it to be effective. Condi is also more tricky to be effective, many specs have condi cleanse on dodges, shatters, blocks etc. and, at least against a virtuoso, a condi build is pretty useless. Naturally, some specs have advantages over others, this is fine, this is what keeps the game interesting. If you think my opinion is useless, yours is totally coming from a parallel universe. 

[Einsof.1457]

22 hours ago, Seneca.6319 said:

PVE is ok but PVP is not, see the points I make about downed states not being equal. 

If anything, the opposite would make more sense. 

[Fueki.4753]

8 hours ago, Seneca.6319 said:

You need expertise (how long it lasts) for condition damage (how hard your conditions hit) to be at full potential.

Arenanet removed Expertise from sPvP quite a while ago.

[Morwath.9817]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Arenanet removed Expertise from sPvP quite a while ago.

I guess its disguised WvWvW topic in sPvP forums. Indeed, WvWvW would only benefit from removal of downstate, while sPvP not really.