Hot take: The next expansion should be PvP focused

[Einsof.1457]

13 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

That much is agreeable.

Sub-annual balance patches are not content, I don't care how excited or angry other people get over them. Boring and useless if the game itself isn't fun.

Well-balanced trash is still trash and you'd have to make quite the leap to call this well-balanced. 

Honestly this is one of the biggest problems with the game and that is huge game changing  rebalance patches are way too frequent. 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

58 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Honestly this is one of the biggest problems with the game and that is huge game changing  rebalance patches are way too frequent. 

Fr and rebalance is a much better word for it

Because the strong majority of changes to classes in these 'balance patches' are just going back on old changes. The removal of tradeoffs actual years after the fact is proof of that - or some tradeoffs I guess because some elite specs still have tradeoffs while others don't.

 

Idk about frequent but they're definitely game-changing to be sure. Since 2020 the game has gone from snail's pace to "dude what happened to my health bar?" Several times over

Meanwhile Ranked is bordering on unplayable, plagued with terribad and deteriorating matchmaking, unfair duoq, and outwardly unpunished afking/match manipulation. Hasn't been a new map in years, or new arenas, nothing of the sort. No new runes, sigils, or ammies with EoD, infact the overcommitment to balance has actually shrunken what options were already there.

But nah my experience has shown me that people are content to ignore these sorts of problems that make the game unfun and to instead focus on matters such as sending death threats to one and other over hammer warrior because such things are a menace that need deletion pls pls. 🤨

Balance enthusiasts are the real menace that need deletion.

[Tukaram.8256]

7 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

That's like saying there's already PvE areas. How would you feel if the only pve area was queensdale? There's nothing wrong with getting creative with pvp. 

If that was all the map needed for PvE, that would be fine.  There are far more PvE players, so they have more map space.  Personally I think the world map is getting ridiculously large, but that is probably just me.

A PvP focused expansion would not serve enough interested players.  As I said - they can do whatever PvP changes that are desired, but a majority of the dev time and money needs to serve a majority of the player base. That is just good business sense.

PvP players have never understood that it is just not as popular a playstyle. It has been a problem since Ultima Online launched in 1997. This is not a new conversation. 😎

 

~Edit~  When my comment posted I see that the discussion got moved to the PVP forum. Interesting.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Tukaram.8256

[Crab Fear.8623]

There will not be an expansion to this game lol

[Crab Fear.8623]

Competitive balance is done around pve speed runs, the only competition that matters.

But this type of balancing only increases the chances of hackers.

Heck, part of speed running, is hacking or exploits, or finding game breaking mechanics.

The whoosh.

[Kuma.1503]

12 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

You got your place to pvp. Use it. Instead of requesting them to add pvp in pve which will never happen, ask for more content within your already existing gamemode. More maps or whatever. If you want pve elements in there, go to wvw. 

We've tried that for years. 

OP's onto something. We get them to conflate PvP with PvE and maybe we might get a scrap of new content!

[Freya.9075]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

We've tried that for years. 

OP's onto something. We get them to conflate PvP with PvE and maybe we might get a scrap of new content!

PvP is a niche game mode. It will never happen. If you want pvp and pve, that’s what WvW is for. 

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

PvP is a niche game mode. It will never happen. If you want pvp and pve, that’s what WvW is for. 

Personally I see it as a self fulfilling prophecy on Anto's end. 

"PvP is too niche it's not worth investing in"

-pvp population declines-

"look at how few people play pvp. there's no point in making new content"

-pvp population declines-

"we can't possibly make new content now pvp has 10 active players"

 

If PvP is going to ever get even the tinest shred of content, we gotta get the PvE crowd on board, and that means lowering the barrier between the two. 

I'd just like to point out that there's a perfectly good collosseum in Black Citadel where players could go to scrap with other players in open world... Even has conveniently placed spectator seats for full immersion, might even get a few roleplayers on board. 

Get a few NPCs to talk about it in the main city to get players curious... 

Or...

I heard Anet said once that they made the bots easy on purpose because they would unironically whoop most players in a 1v1... Maybe they could even unleash some of those bots on us, in the Arena. Let you talk to someone to enter a personal instance where you fight them. Unchain the AI, make it an actual fight people can take on with achievements. 

Or they could pull a Queen's arena and let other people watch you fight the bots. Still technically PvE, but it might help bridge the gap for some people. 

 

I'm just spitballing ideas. 

[Freya.9075]

23 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Personally I see it as a self fulfilling prophecy on Anto's end. 

"PvP is too niche it's not worth investing in"

-pvp population declines-

"look at how few people play pvp. there's no point in making new content"

-pvp population declines-

"we can't possibly make new content now pvp has 10 active players"

 

If PvP is going to ever get even the tinest shred of content, we gotta get the PvE crowd on board, and that means lowering the barrier between the two. 

I'd just like to point out that there's a perfectly good collosseum in Black Citadel where players could go to scrap with other players in open world... Even has conveniently placed spectator seats for full immersion, might even get a few roleplayers on board. 

Get a few NPCs to talk about it in the main city to get players curious... 

Or...

I heard Anet said once that they made the bots easy on purpose because they would unironically whoop most players in a 1v1... Maybe they could even unleash some of those bots on us, in the Arena. Let you talk to someone to enter a personal instance where you fight them. Unchain the AI, make it an actual fight people can take on with achievements. 

Or they could pull a Queen's arena and let other people watch you fight the bots. Still technically PvE, but it might help bridge the gap for some people. 

 

I'm just spitballing ideas. 

But the problem with implementing pvp in pve is that it will not make pve players want to play pvp. It actually has the opposite effect as I myself am part of that pve group of players. I've played games with pvp implemented in pve and it was not a good experience. That experience is one of the main reasons why I now despise pvp as I want my gaming time to be positive and not negative. What pvp players fail to realise is that not all players are competitive. And that should be respected. If they implement it, many players will leave the game and find something else to play. And anet do not want that.

Fighting bots is pve. I would not mind that part of the game as it is not against real people. It will not bridge the gap for the players who do not like to play against other people. As soon as the bots are removed, they will not enjoy it. I have tried pvp and imagined they are just bots, but it doesnt really work well. It helps if there is something I really want from pvp, but it will only make me stay for that limited time till I get what I want and I do not go back cause it's not something I enjoy. And that's the main reason most pve players stay away. It's just not our cup of tea.

I am not against using resources for pvp, I actually want them to do that. Even find a ways for pve players to try pvp and enjoy the experience. And hopefully stay. But not on the cost of pve players enjoyment of the game. Who knows they will not like pvp as they have tried it. Keeping pvp in instances and own gamemodes like it is now is the right way to do it.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Freya.9075

[jdawgie.1835]

10 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

But the problem with implementing pvp in pve is that it will not make pve players want to play pvp. It actually has the opposite effect as I myself am part of that pve group of players. I've played games with pvp implemented in pve and it was not a good experience. That experience is one of the main reasons why I now despise pvp as I want my gaming time to be positive and not negative. What pvp players fail to realise is that not all players are competitive

True - From the gate Anet separated us. At Launch PvP had its own world, its own Mystic Forge its own reward tracks, its own xmogs. PvE Items were not allowed in HOTM. They were entirely separate game modes. Forcing the two to interact is not going to work out well. 

 

10 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

I am not against using resources for pvp, I actually want them to do that. Even find a ways for pve players to try pvp and enjoy the experience. And hopefully stay. But not on the cost of pve players enjoyment of the game.

I think its cool you have this view point as many PvE Players seem to think PvPers should "Just be thankful for what they get." PvPers think the same of PvErs too. We need to allocate resources. Even if it was 60/40 in favor of PvE this would change the PvP experience so much that it wouldn't matter. We get less than 5% of resources spent on our game made. Its really silly to alienate such a dedicated player base. 

 

Maybe if enough PvErs vocalize in favor of allocating some resources to PvP Anet will feel less conflicted. 

[Morwath.9817]

I'd love some Guild vs Guild content, you know its Guild Wars after all...

Edit: Both PvE and PvP with their separate leaderboards...

Edited November 20, 2022 by Morwath.9817

[Crab Fear.8623]

11 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

But the problem with implementing pvp in pve is that it will not make pve players want to play pvp. It actually has the opposite effect as I myself am part of that pve group of players. I've played games with pvp implemented in pve and it was not a good experience. That experience is one of the main reasons why I now despise pvp as I want my gaming time to be positive and not negative. What pvp players fail to realise is that not all players are competitive. And that should be respected. If they implement it, many players will leave the game and find something else to play. And anet do not want that.

Fighting bots is pve. I would not mind that part of the game as it is not against real people. It will not bridge the gap for the players who do not like to play against other people. As soon as the bots are removed, they will not enjoy it. I have tried pvp and imagined they are just bots, but it doesnt really work well. It helps if there is something I really want from pvp, but it will only make me stay for that limited time till I get what I want and I do not go back cause it's not something I enjoy. And that's the main reason most pve players stay away. It's just not our cup of tea.

I am not against using resources for pvp, I actually want them to do that. Even find a ways for pve players to try pvp and enjoy the experience. And hopefully stay. But not on the cost of pve players enjoyment of the game. Who knows they will not like pvp as they have tried it. Keeping pvp in instances and own gamemodes like it is now is the right way to do it.

 

Long story short:

 

The game had a large pvp population that has dwindled over the years do to a lack of updates, additions, and modes.

 

It is in its state, not because of a lack of willing players, but a lack of content.

 

 

[Alin.2468]

PvP and WvW need love too. Indeed, we need an expansion just for PvP teams and PvP guilds. This game mode and it's teamplay (not farming randoms) got ignored for far too long (since 2017).

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

This thread attracted so many pve players that showed up specifically to decry competitive. That's crazy.

 

On topic: I'd like a pvp oriented expack, but the pvp community is too small (and the pve community too ravenous for content) to justify it. A significant portion of resources dedicated to pvp for an expack would be welcomed though. One new mode, some new ammy/sigil pairings,  a map or two and additional balance passes would be great. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[kharmin.7683]

On 11/20/2022 at 3:38 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

If PvP is going to ever get even the tinest shred of content, we gotta get the PvE crowd on board, and that means lowering the barrier between the two.

I'd wager that a large proportion of PvE players simply do not enjoy PvP.  The current population of the two game modes seems to suggest that as well as the amount of resources Anet decides to place in each.

[kharmin.7683]

On 11/20/2022 at 3:38 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

 

If PvP is going to ever get even the tinest shred of content, we gotta get the PvE crowd on board, and that means lowering the barrier between the two. 

 

Honest questions.  What do you mean by 'lowering the barrier between the two'?  What barrier and how would you propose lowering it? 

[Bladestrom.6425]

10 v 10 / 15 v 15 battleground has always been a great middle ground between pve players and pvp players.

[Kuma.1503]

5 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Honest questions.  What do you mean by 'lowering the barrier between the two'?  What barrier and how would you propose lowering it? 

The barrier in this context refers to the hard separation between the two game modes. With the exception of the guild arena, PvP is currently locked away in instances. A player needs to travel to heart of the mists in order for PvP to happen. I'm suggesting ways for people to encounter it organically when simply playing the game and exploring the world. 

I chose the Black Citadel arena as a place for that to happen because it's out of the way. It won't obstruct PvE players in any way, It sits in its own corner of the map. 

What would happen is that a PvE player might walk around the city, hear about it from some NPCs, they could talk to the NPC, select a dialogue option where they ask about it, and the NPC will show them where it is and suggest they try it out. 

They could choose to either ignore it and go about their day or check it out. 

 

This alone wouldn't save PvP, but it could create a space for players to organize duels (where others can't inturrupt), and other players could spectate those duels. Content creators could jump on it and perform some of their duels there, get more players interested. 

From there it's a matter of continuing to give resources into PvP so it doesn't die off again. The current low population is largely due to the lack of updates. The meta has improved a lot since the snoozefest that was late PoF. The fact that PvP still has any players left at all despite Anet's refusal to give it any new content whatsoever should be a testiment that there's something worth investing in here. 

 

tl;dr Adding new PvP content. Creating ways for PvP to happen organically in the open world (without it interfering with PvE players enjoyment of the game). 

[Tukaram.8256]

18 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This thread attracted so many pve players that showed up specifically to decry competitive. That's crazy.

Because it was originally posted in the main forum - it later got moved to the PvP forum.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

Because it was originally posted in the main forum - it later got moved to the PvP forum.

 

Fair enough- I hadn't considered that~

I retract my mild heckling. 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Nico.9361]

On 11/19/2022 at 2:44 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

A pvp focused xpac would fix that. 

It doesn't answer the question how? How do you make PvP attractive enough for more than PvP players?
E.g. we currently have multiple ways to obtain legendary armor in game, but ppl who enjoy open world complain that they are forced to play PvE (differently, cuz raids), WvW or PvP.
How does a PvP themed xpack attract them to change the way they like to play the game? Or at least interact with something they normally avoid?

I am not saying that PvP deserves an update. We don't need Anet to shove it up everyone's throats tho.

[Einsof.1457]

3 hours ago, NotTooFoolish.7412 said:

It doesn't answer the question how? How do you make PvP attractive enough for more than PvP players?
E.g. we currently have multiple ways to obtain legendary armor in game, but ppl who enjoy open world complain that they are forced to play PvE (differently, cuz raids), WvW or PvP.
How does a PvP themed xpack attract them to change the way they like to play the game? Or at least interact with something they normally avoid?

I am not saying that PvP deserves an update. We don't need Anet to shove it up everyone's throats tho.

I'm not a designer but what if half the landmass of some zones were pvp areas with unique mechanics, goals, and rewards.