A Reaper Build That Has No Problem Getting Hit: The Immortal Valkyrie

[mandala.8507]

21 minutes ago, NekoNoKoi.9137 said:

You just can't call this the strongest way to play power reaper, because it's not the case.

But I can, because strength is always contextualized by who is playing the build and with whom the build is being played.

There's zero shot my damage would have been better on the meta build in the pull I showed above, so I absolutely have a case for saying this build is stronger in some (most) instances.

Disregarding these instances that are the common experience for new and low-skill players and forcing them to suffer on more streamlined builds "just because" is silly and we need to stop telling them these glassy builds are the only way to play the game, because they aren't.

Damage rarely, if ever, is the deciding factor in everyday raiding, and so designing damage builds solely around their damage potential just because good players in good groups can get away with that is irrational. A low APM build doesn't help me when my teammates decide to nuke me with hard-hitting mechanics, but you're saying my only two options should be streamlined meta builds or low-APM streamlined meta builds, both of which are worse for me in this scenario than the valkyrie build.

And what you're indirectly saying is that we shouldn't tolerate players that make mistakes and inconvenience this status quo. That the system should not accommodate them and the only people we really want raiding consistently are the ones who will end up being quite good at the game.

[NekoNoKoi.9137]

13 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

But I can, because strength is always contextualized by who is playing the build and with whom the build is being played.

Well, you can't really, because words mean things. This build is not the strongest power reaper build for the role (DPS). You can certainly make the case that it might be stronger than the BiS build in extremely unoptimised scenarios, but then that comes with the aforementioned disclaimer. I don't have any feelings about you or others playing this build, but I think it's a little irresponsible to advertise alternate builds in ways that aren't true.

 

17 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Disregarding these instances that are the common experience for new and low-skill players and forcing them to suffer on more streamlined builds "just because" is silly and we need to stop telling them these glassy builds are the only way to play the game, because they aren't.

I'm not disregarding anything, I'm just saying that the frequency of these scenarios has definitely decreased dramatically since the inception of raids and other high end PvE content. Also, I'm not saying meta or low APM are your only options, you're assuming my point. You can play whatever you want (though not everybody will accept homebrew builds).

 

24 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

And what you're indirectly saying is that we shouldn't tolerate players that make mistakes and inconvenience this status quo. That the system should not accommodate them and the only people we really want raiding consistently are the ones who will end up being quite good at the game.

I'm starting to feel like you might have a chip on your shoulder about raids and the meta and benchmarks, so you're now making a lot of assumptions. I'm involved in a guild which leads raid trainings, whether you're brand spankin' new or just need a refresher, so I'm very accustomed to mistakes (and mistakes are good, they're a great opportunity to learn). I wouldn't recommend the valkyrie build to a trainee because my aim is to teach them how to clear a raid boss properly, learning the mechanics, and without getting carried, whether that's heal scourge or anything similar. Once you're able to do this (and even when training, honestly), there's simply no need to run extra vitality etc outside of "hecc it, why not?".

 

P.s. Some of the easiest runs I've had were with aggressive comps minimising heals and with high DPS. It's insane how easy it is when you skip mechanics

[mandala.8507]

16 minutes ago, NekoNoKoi.9137 said:

I wouldn't recommend the valkyrie build to a trainee because my aim is to teach them how to clear a raid boss properly, learning the mechanics, and without getting carried, whether that's heal scourge or anything similar. Once you're able to do this (and even when training, honestly), there's simply no need to run extra vitality etc outside of "hecc it, why not?".

You should read the words you responded to and and then read your statement aloud, because this is exactly what I meant. If they can't conform or meet your bar, you don't want them.

What you consider proper isn't necessarily the best fit for most players, so what you mean by proper is that they are playing in a way you find palatable/acceptable, and all other ways, therefore, are not.

What you think is proper is objectively not the best way to play in many scenarios, thus what you deem proper is superficial.

And you say you're teaching people how to play "properly" and then flexing how much easier it is to skip mechanics and not learn them. So which is it? It seems hypocritical and paradoxical to me that you view things like heal scourge as improper but are totally down with cheesing encounters with high dps. It's almost like these are just cultural sentiments and not objective truths you're basing your arguments on. 

Well, it's because that is all they are: cultural sentiments. Just feelings about how the content should be played and about what constitutes "getting carried" vs not. Arbitrary lines in the sand that hurt more players than they help.

And so you're here defending how you feel raids should be played to the detriment of players who might not want to play the game the exact same way you do. Belittling builds you don't find on speedrunners' websites by calling them "homebrews", as if there's some special industrial process by which "proper" builds come to be.

If you didn't have feelings, you wouldn't be in this thread telling me I'm being irresponsible when I know for a fact I am not. This build could help people enjoy the content at their own pace and current skill level better, but in your opinion based on feelings, I should not be sharing it in order to protect...who?

To protect no one. Just to protect your feelings and what you and many others view as "proper".

[NekoNoKoi.9137]

29 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

To protect no one. Just to protect your feelings and what you and many others view as "proper".

Oy vey. I'm going to continue assuming you have a chip on your shoulder because you didn't reply stating otherwise, so please take this in good faith: I'm sorry for whatever crappy experience you had with some toxic elitist raider. I've also blocked plenty of people, unfortunately, who I had bad experiences with.

 

33 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

If they can't conform or meet your bar, you don't want them.

What you consider proper isn't necessarily the best fit for most players, so what you mean by proper is that they are playing in a way you find palatable/acceptable, and all other ways, therefore, are not.

No...Please stop making me repeat myself. I already said, if people can't or don't want to learn the meta builds and rotations, there are good, viable alternatives from people creating low APM builds. I don't care what build you personally run, or frankly anyone, as long as boons are good, DPS is fine, and we clear the raid etc in a reasonable amount of time - run base necro, for all I care. I'm not the meta police lmao, play what you want. My one and only issue here is your claim that the current meta build is:

 

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

You just can't call this the strongest way to play power reaper, because it's not the case.

Because it is. That's the definition of meta/strongest/etc. I know you disagree, but words have meanings and it's impossible to have a conversation otherwise. As I previously said, you could totally make a case for your build being stronger, it's just that it would be in very suboptimal conditions, so it requires an asterisk. I have no emotional attachment to the "system" or whatever it is you accuse me of defending, I'm here because I was bothered by the irresponsible phrasing of your build claiming it as superior to the current BiS. If I was new to raids and didn't already have legendary armour and a bank overflowing with ascended gear in every stat, weight, and flavour, I'd be pretty upset to craft an entire new gearset based on this thread and then find that most of the groups I join kick me as soon as they see 3 signets on a power reaper.

 

Again, play what you want

46 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

And you say you're teaching people how to play "properly" and then flexing how much easier it is to skip mechanics and not learn them. So which is it?

You... You know you have to actually learn mechanics and encounters before you can start figuring out how to min max DPS to skip aforementioned mechanics/phases, right? Do you think people like that show up expecting to do benchmark DPS despite not knowing what's going on? The difference between heal scourge and cheesing DPS is that one of these requires everyone to already have mastered the encounter "normally", whereas the other can and will hard carry people through mechanics they'd otherwise die and wipe to. I like to teach people and explain mechanics because it's my strong belief that helping others understand encounters builds a more solid foundation for success in their raiding journey than simply carrying them, because then they don't learn,  join experienced groups without a healscourge etc and get kicked. It's not a fun experience for the squad, but most importantly for that person either.

 

Honestly, idk what else to say here. I can empathise that it probably feels really crap to dedicate time and effort to a build and then have it be criticised on a public forum - I'm sorry. For what it's worth, I don't see an issue with less optimised builds that are more forgiving/easier, like the low APM ones. You just shouldn't advertise it as being better than whatever the meta variant is, because it isn't and it's not even meant to be, that kind of goes hand-in-hand with "more forgiving/easier".

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, NekoNoKoi.9137 said:

I'd be pretty upset to craft an entire new gearset based on this thread and then find that most of the groups I join kick me as soon as they see 3 signets on a power reaper.

So I have to tiptoe around people being elitist? When I know my build is good?!

Also, remember that the specific comment you initially responded to is from before the November 2022 patch. If that patch had gone through as planned and they didn't last minute adjust life force drain over time in reaper shroud, life force gain from various sources on reaper, and add an extra 5% crit chance to death perception, the Valkyrie build with Decimate Defenses would have been practically on par dps-wise with the "meta" build, no question. Of course not the version I'm recommending with Signet of Undeath, but I recommend taking this because most people are going to have a better time with signets + Signets of Suffering. Anyone kicking them for this build is on a huge power trip and likely not worth playing with anyway. I'm not responsible for horrible people being horrible.

So, you can stop assuming things about me and trying to suggest I'm mad because people don't like my build now. I just know what I'm talking about and think the idea of tailoring build craft to a miniscule minority of players at the top is...let's just say I think it's bad.

Thanks tho! 🙂 

[NekoNoKoi.9137]

14 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I'm not responsible for horrible people being horrible.

I didn't say that, and you're not, obviously. If I was making builds outside of the meta for newer players, I think it would be nice to give a disclaimer. 

 

Regarding the actual points of your build, since you're bringing them up; people here have already given very helpful explanations as to what could be improved, so there's not much more to add. 

 

You didn't reply to any of the others points I made (and frankly, I'm not sure how else I could paraphrase them or what else we could add) , so I wish you a good night 😀

[mandala.8507]

6 minutes ago, NekoNoKoi.9137 said:

I didn't say that, and you're not, obviously. If I was making builds outside of the meta for newer players, I think it would be nice to give a disclaimer. 

 

Regarding the actual points of your build, since you're bringing them up; people here have already given very helpful explanations as to what could be improved, so there's not much more to add. 

 

You didn't reply to any of the others points I made (and frankly, I'm not sure how else I could paraphrase them or what else we could add) , so I wish you a good night 😀

Nothing could be improved that wouldn't be trading survivability and quality of life for barely relevant amounts of extra damage, so you're still incorrect. Saying "just play the glass cannon meta build" isn't a suggestion for improving the build.

There's no need for a disclaimer because anyone playing this build is doing so because it is better for them. If you're good enough to not need this build, you're good enough not to have to blindly follow a stranger's advice from the gw2 forums.

Glad we cleared up that you are concerned over a fairytale scenario.

[Nephalem.8921]

20 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

You shared a log of a group with 5 dps players hitting 20k+ dmg on Sabetha and are trying to say this is a normal group? Yeah, okay. Sure dude.

That was a normal 100 Li kill. 20k is median for spellbreaker/bladesworn. Everyone not doing cannons should reach that. 2-4 cannon can even reach that. 30k is top on sab. Dps players not able to reach 20 qualify for the "hi dps" meme.

20 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Not to mention I can do a 20k+ dps mark on Sabetha on this build, so I"m not sure what you're trying to prove. You read I was in rare gear, right? And if you watched the video, you'd see it was no where near a clean pull and I was getting blasted out of shroud often and being forced to rez and use heal skills. Again, in rare valkyrie gear.

You're trying to tell me the build isn't good by comparing it to clean top 10% pulls on wingman and completely ignoring the fact I'm in rare gear and that the number you see in your meter at the end of a clean run isn't the be-all and end-all when it comes to build strength. It's like saying the best car for your morning commute is a Formula 1 vehicle because it has the potential to get you there the quickest. No one is trying to convince you this build has high damage potential in perfectly clean runs. It's purpose is to still be able to put out damage in runs that specifically are having problems, which is something many players don't realize reaper can do who only know about the glassy meta build variant.

Reaper is not glassy. It has 22k hp. Sabetha has adds which provide lifeforce. Why are you raiding in rare gear when a full exo set costs like 10g? Scrapper is better than your build in every way. 37k+ bench. Barrier. Mass revive. Playing a 28k build does not help and i doubt that you could easily do 20k+ on sab with that build since most reapers can not do it with the dps build. Reaper in general is just not great.

20 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

The video I shared showcases this.

And no one even mentioned KP. Why are you talking about KP in a thread about build craft?

Because it was EU where every group asks for Li to prevent runs like yours. 100Li is a low threshold which means basically just experienced. NA experienced means bladesworn top dps with 24k on SH. 

18 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Ya, this is a perfect analogy.

a 3.5 min Sabetha clear is not reflective of the general population. I know that post EOD brought in lots of powercreep, but a normal SAB that actually does the mechanics, is gonna be a 6-7 minute thing…and lots of people die and make mistakes in that boss fight.

The elite are stuck in their own universe cause their too busy gate keeping reality to know what a normal sab run is like lol

Sab median is 4:30 on wingman. The reaper kill with 5:30 is already bottom 10%. A 7min kill would be worst 1%. Nobody usually dies in experienced groups.

The runs i posted were 2 different low li runs after reset. I might be biased towards the top because i play high dps specs which results in faster kills. But so might be some posters here but biased in the other direction.

If you bring builds like that with very low dps it will result in longer kills with more mechanics and more points of failure. Same applies to fractals but is amplified because of group size. You would be surprised how hard a single high dps player can carry those.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[mandala.8507]

4 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

That was a normal 100 Li kill. 20k is median for spellbreaker/bladesworn. Everyone not doing cannons should reach that. 2-4 cannon can even reach that. 30k is top on sab. Dps players not able to reach 20 qualify for the "hi dps" meme.

Reaper is not glassy. It has 22k hp. Sabetha has adds which provide lifeforce. Why are you raiding in rare gear when a full exo set costs like 10g? Scrapper is better than your build in every way. 37k+ bench. Barrier. Mass revive. Playing a 28k build does not help and i doubt that you could easily do 20k+ on sab with that build since most reapers can not do it with the dps build. Reaper in general is just not great.

Because it was EU where every group asks for Li to prevent runs like yours. 100Li is a low threshold which means basically just experienced. NA experienced means bladesworn top dps with 24k on SH. 

Sab median is 4:30 on wingman. The reaper kill with 5:30 is already bottom 10%. A 7min kill would be worst 1%. Nobody usually dies in experienced groups.

The runs i posted were 2 different low li runs after reset. I might be biased towards the top because i play high dps specs which results in faster kills. But so might be some posters here but biased in the other direction.

If you bring builds like that with very low dps it will result in longer kills with more mechanics and more points of failure. Same applies to fractals but is amplified because of group size. You would be surprised how hard a single high dps player can carry those.

Wow. This is just...wow.

It's got everything:

1. a ridiculously skewed perspective on what normal means
2. a bold assumption i must be bad and can't actually do the thing i know i can do, which is a 20k dps pull on Sabetha with this build
3. erroneous overgeneralization, completely ignoring the fact the glassier build actually does worse in the fight I linked and that messy runs happen and are normal
4. weird EU superiority complex

I really should just let your comment speak for itself, though. People who haven't already entirely isolated themselves off from reality in the raiding scene with overzealous gatekeeping will understand how biased and uninformed your viewpoint is.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Wow. This is just...wow.

It's got everything:

1. a ridiculously skewed perspective on what normal means
2. a bold assumption i must be bad and can't actually do the thing i know i can do, which is a 20k dps pull on Sabetha with this build
3. erroneous overgeneralization, completely ignoring the fact the glassier build actually does worse in the fight I linked and that messy runs happen and are normal
4. weird EU superiority complex

I really should just let your comment speak for itself, though. People who haven't already entirely isolated themselves off from reality in the raiding scene with overzealous gatekeeping will understand how biased and uninformed your viewpoint is.

 

Ha! truly a gatekeeping moment...it's an understatement. These are some of the top speed-clearers linking their logs and stroking so much of their own ego it's crazy . Check this out: https://i.imgur.com/hNWDbj3.png

 

That dude who linked those DPS logs on the previous page (Nefras) is...the top person on those charts (23k was the highest recorded DPS for Reaper according to wingman on Sabetha in the past 12 months)...the complete opposite of "normal" and here they are talking about "what is normal" when it's clear that the NORMAL DPS on Sabetha for reaper ranges between 8k-20k (15k median), meaning this Valkyrie build doing 15k, is doing comparable damage to the meta reaper on an average normal basis.

 

Another thing to mention based on that comment: This idea of "carry mentality" exists in other places too, like Spvp. The funniest thing about it is that the perceived value in this mentality in gw2, conflicts with the rest of the worlds account for true tactical, strategic value like in the Art of War, the 48 Laws of Power, and in the Military Complex. 

 

This video puts it perfectly: People that talk about "carrying" are toxic team-members/toxic leaders. And they then wonder why gw2 Raid content stopped development...it's cause of gatekeeper people like this that don't want you to play anything else, make no mistakes, talk up to their own egos, and talk down to everyone and everything that not on their level and performing at their level...when it turns out that truly successful performance comes from trusting in your teammates and raising them up.  Not seeing them as obstacles in your way, and lesser beings. 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Nefras.7314]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Ha! truly a gatekeeping moment...it's an understatement. These are some of the top speed-clearers linking their logs and stroking so much of their own ego it's crazy . Check this out: https://i.imgur.com/hNWDbj3.png

 

That dude who linked those DPS logs on the previous page (Nefras) is...the top person on those charts (23k was the highest recorded DPS for Reaper according to wingman on Sabetha in the past 12 months)...the complete opposite of "normal" and here they are talking about "what is normal" when it's clear that the NORMAL DPS on Sabetha for reaper ranges between 8k-20k (15k median), meaning this Valkyrie build doing 15k, is doing comparable damage to the meta reaper on an average normal basis.

 

 

 

Im just gonna assume that you dont know how to use wingman properly cuz what you stated is just not true. (probably used the default random 100 logs)

https://gyazo.com/3f581728744543a1a9a3df81a9421a1c

Heres the actual logs included from the entirety of last year (including logs before the last few buffs that include meta reaper dps far below todays values - yellow dots are mine since youre so focused on that)

Note that those logs include every single log that had a boss kill in it, not accounting for people dying, and or doing mechanics like cannons on the boss which will affect dps alot.

The medien dps you stated includes that too, our valk reaper here does 15k dps *without* doing any mechanics, meta reapers do 22k-24k dps doing the exact same thing that he does with a "better" rotation - gear aside.

Also note that most people do not even use reapers in raids which also deflates the average dps since most "ego stroking gatekeepers" would not bother with reaper and just play a class that does good dps - like weaver. This is very easy to see when you look at the amount of reaper logs compared to ele or any other high dps meta build for that matter. Weird how ele has so much higher average dps compared to reaper even tho its squishy af - hmmm. 

Theres nothing more or less skillfull about the 2 builds and people will not survive more or better on valk reaper with average healers/supports, the build is just bad in your average raid environment. 

 

 

[mandala.8507]

9 minutes ago, Nefras.7314 said:

Heres the actual logs included from the entirety of last year (including logs before the last few buffs that include meta reaper dps far below todays values - yellow dots are mine since youre so focused on that)

And in those logs from the past year of reaper raiding on Sabetha, the log you linked is...the 4th highest of all of them. In that entire sea of dots from a year's worth of reaper raiding on wingman, that log is 4th place with 23.1k dps.

10 minutes ago, Nefras.7314 said:

The medien dps you stated includes that too, our valk reaper here does 15k dps *without* doing any mechanics, meta reapers do 22k-24k dps doing the exact same thing that he does with a "better" rotation - gear aside.

This is abominably disingenuous framing to make it look like the build is worse than it is. I shared a log of a really messy pull in rare Valkyrie gear that did 15.1k dps that you are comparing to this ludicrous standard of 22k-24k. >99% of reaper players will never see a Sabetha log of 22k+ dmg (at its current strength), but you're trying to insinuate that this range of 22k-24k is somehow standard. It's not. Your best log is barely above the midpoint of that range.

18 minutes ago, Nefras.7314 said:

Theres nothing more or less skillfull about the 2 builds and people will not survive more or better on valk reaper with average healers/supports, the build is just bad in your average raid environment. 

This is just incorrect. Likely because you haven't a clue what average looks like or how this build plays.

[Obtena.7952]

You know the best thing about gatekeepers ... eventually they find themselves on the wrong side of the gate. 

No amount of metapushing is going to convince the average, casual gamer that they shouldn't play how they want, especially if the and the people in their team can be successful doing so. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Dr Meta.3158]

These last few posts are a good indicator of why people hate statistics.

 

My whole thing is in any game mode. Play whatever you want, just pull your own weight or you're out. Simple enough. If you want to roleplay a sickly old necromancer missing an arm, do it with another group that likes that.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

These last few posts are a good indicator of why people hate statistics.

 

My whole thing is in any game mode. Play whatever you want, just pull your own weight or you're out. Simple enough. If you want to roleplay a sickly old necromancer missing an arm, do it with another group that likes that.

This mentality is why so many players find the raiding scene so hostile. There's this small, arbitrary list of acceptable ways to play, and then everything else is gonna get you called a roleplayer or something, like you're doing here.

Even though the build I'm sharing is far and beyond what you'd need to clear any content in the game, with the added benefit of not feeling absolutely horrible to play outside of clean runs.

The double think is wild to me.

[NekoNoKoi.9137]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No amount of metapushing is going to convince the average, casual gamer that they shouldn't play how they want, especially if the and the people in their team can be successful doing so. 

No one is telling you what you can and can't play. GW2 is a game we play for fun, presumably, and you should play what you enjoy, meta or not. OP posted their build and people are critiquing it and suggesting what could be better. My bugbear is their framing of their build as somehow better than the meta variant, because this is untrue and shouldn't be advertised as such, because that's misleading (especially to newer players).

 

This build, a meta one, a roleplay base war running soldiers stats, whatever - play what makes you happy, that's what this game is for. Critiquing someone's build and telling OP they shouldn't make false claims has nothing to do with forcing others to play a certain way

 

[Obtena.7952]

31 minutes ago, NekoNoKoi.9137 said:

No one is telling you what you can and can't play. GW2 is a game we play for fun, presumably, and you should play what you enjoy, meta or not. OP posted their build and people are critiquing it and suggesting what could be better. My bugbear is their framing of their build as somehow better than the meta variant, because this is untrue and shouldn't be advertised as such, because that's misleading (especially to newer players).

This is not the first rodeo with people 'not telling' others what to play and not play (it's easy to see the implied intent of some people in this thread).

I too am on the side of people playing whatever they want. What I am not cool with is the way some people will attempt to downplay the value of non-meta builds to influence the impressionable to conclude meta is THE way to play the game 'correctly'. This is almost inevitable with any thread that attempt to discuss non-meta builds as the history of the forums demonstrates. 

Frankly, I think any attempts to frame any build as 'better' or not make little sense without considering the player. I get that in the IDEAL situation with HIGHLY capable players, meta is giving the best performance. That's NEVER what people who make non-meta build threads care about discussing. 

If you have a beef with the OP about how he's pushing this as 'better' that something else, that's fine. Maybe in some situations, it can be, based on what someone wants to do, how they want to play or who they play with. 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[NekoNoKoi.9137]

18 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Frankly, I think any attempts to frame any build as 'better' or not make little sense without considering the player. I get that in the IDEAL situation with HIGHLY capable players, meta is giving the best performance. That's almost NEVER what people who make non-meta build threads care about discussing. 

 

This has already been covered repeatedly, but to clarify, there's nothing wrong with stating which build is the current highest DPS build, i.e. meta. It is what it is. Also, generally, pugs aren't as bad as OP strangely seems intent on painting them out to be, so for the average raider, the meta build will serve them better, especially if they want to play the best/meta option. If they prefer to play something else then they can do that too.

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, NekoNoKoi.9137 said:

This has already been covered repeatedly, but to clarify, there's nothing wrong with stating which build is the current highest DPS build, i.e. meta. It is what it is. Also, generally, pugs aren't as bad as OP strangely seems intent on painting them out to be, so for the average raider, the meta build will serve them better, especially if they want to play the best/meta option. If they prefer to play something else then they can do that too.

Again, not sure anyone should just conclude the average raider is going to be best served with the meta build. Its more accurate to acknowledge the average raider is going to be best served playing the builds they are most comfortable/capable playing that are probably builds they most likely want to play. That's meta for some people ... and for some people it's not. 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

28 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I too am on the side of people playing whatever they want. What I am not cool with is the way some people will attempt to downplay the value of non-meta builds to influence the impressionable to conclude meta is THE way to play the game 'correctly'. This is almost inevitable with any thread that attempt to discuss non-meta builds as the history of the forums demonstrates. 

And this phenomenon is so striking in gw2. We have a game with a vast array of build craft options, but a hardcore scene hellbent on making sure only a small portion of it is considered by the playerbase and that goes well out of their way to put down insights other than their own. Never have I seen a dissonance between game and community as strong as within gw2. Even in highly competitive esports games, I feel like creativity and individually-tailored build craft is heavily encouraged for most players, but constantly my attempts to do so in this game by saying "hey, I think some players will find this build a better fit for them and I don't agree with everything you're saying" are met with putdowns and snobbishness.

They want this game to be more like other MMOs where you are forced to conform or fall behind, but fortunately that's not how gw2 works. That forced optimization culture falls flat in a game where skill is infinitely more important than what gear or traits you have on.

It's like if I told every Dark Souls 1 player the right way to play the game was to oneshot everything with spells and that anything that isn't an intelligence build running soul spear, dark bead, and homing soul mass should come with a disclaimer. People care far too much about what is optimal over what best accommodates each individual player, and more importantly over what is fun. Players having choices in gw2 is sacrilege, for whatever reason.

People had a problem with reaper being unfun in raids because it can't take a hit, so I shared a build that could that was looking like it might even become meta in an upcoming patch. That should have been the end of the story, but everyone had to hit me with the "well, ack-tually" while entirely missing the premise of the post (in my mind on purpose, because they were really just mad I might have been hurting their lobbying efforts to get reaper drastically more extreme buffs). Although, I do admit is was amusing watching a few SC people hurt themselves in confusion by not quite understanding how the build worked earlier in the thread.

Much ado about nothing.

[NekoNoKoi.9137]

50 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, not sure anyone should just conclude the average raider is going to be best served with the meta build. Its more accurate to acknowledge the average raider is going to be best served playing the builds they are most comfortable/capable playing that are probably builds they most likely want to play. That's meta for some people ... and for some people it's not. 

 

For what might be the 3rd time now: we are no longer in 2016, or whenever it was that raids released. The raiding community is no longer doing updrafts on Gorseval. The content being old + 2 expansions of powercreep = community is better overall. Today, for the memes and out of curiosity, I did Sabetha with the goofiest power reaper rotation I could imagine (staff autoattack spam and all), and my end result was still 17k on dps.report. Despite the insistence of yourself and OP, the average pug isn't completely incapable, so yes, they will perform much better with an optimised meta build. I know you really don't feel like this is the case, for whatever reason, so feel free to send me your kp.me so we can see how much experience you have raiding in this community compared to myself. Maybe you have 10k LI and have seen twice the LFGs I have, and I'm just lucky with PUGs 🙂

 

Also, there is no alternative "meta", that's literally the opposite of what the acronym stands for.

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, NekoNoKoi.9137 said:

Today, for the memes and out of curiosity, I did Sabetha with the goofiest power reaper rotation I could imagine (staff autoattack spam and all), and my end result was still 17k on dps.report.

Can you explain what you even mean by this? Because it sounds like you're saying you hit 17k dps single-target on Sabetha with mostly staff autos, which is...not possible, as far as I'm aware.

Or you could just link the log. Otherwise, this statements literally means nothing. What you might consider a goofy meme build could just be you lingering in staff for 2 extra seconds, for all I know.

[Obtena.7952]

29 minutes ago, NekoNoKoi.9137 said:

For what might be the 3rd time now: we are no longer in 2016, or whenever it was that raids released. The raiding community is no longer doing updrafts on Gorseval. The content being old + 2 expansions of powercreep = community is better overall.

Also, there is no alternative "meta", that's literally the opposite of what the acronym stands for.

Say it a fourth time if you like ... but it's simply not a foregone conclusion that average raiders are best served using meta. I don't care how good you are. If you aren't comfortable or familiar playing a build, you wont use it, you won't be proficient with it. ANY build. So the best builds are the ones people play and have the best understanding of.  

But here is the best part. You are going to tell me it's 'not 2016 anymore' and the community is better overall and there is power creep. YET, you are insisting average players are better off using meta ... 

If that's the case, then the ability for the community to handle non-meta players in their teams should be higher and this insistence that meta is making average players better off is less and less relevant as a justification for them to use it. If anything, the use of meta in this non-2016 gamestate seems more and more relevant to primarily the most capable players to boost a low performing teams. 

Again, this isn't a debate if meta offers the highest ceiling for performance. No one is trying to identify some alternative meta here. It's simply a recognition that more than ever (for the reasons you gave like power creep and general increased community performance), the game is accommodating a wide range of builds that people can be successful with. 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

Because this is the only log I could find of yours on reaper today @NekoNoKoi.9137:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230315-215437_sab_kill

And it doesn't seem like you were memeing with staff on a goofy build to me. I'd say you were full sweating on the meta build with your static while asking others in your group to kite the mechanics for you so you wouldn't have to pause your rotation.

Careful now. You barely made the standard dps for that build on Sabetha of 22k-24k.

Maybe your friend Nefras could give you some pointers.

[Dr Meta.3158]

6 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

This mentality is why so many players find the raiding scene so hostile. There's this small, arbitrary list of acceptable ways to play, and then everything else is gonna get you called a roleplayer or something, like you're doing here.

Even though the build I'm sharing is far and beyond what you'd need to clear any content in the game, with the added benefit of not feeling absolutely horrible to play outside of clean runs.

The double think is wild to me.

If you ruin the experience of others by making things harder for them for your own selfish gratification, they're not going to be happy about that, obviously.

If you think that's harsh, then you should try automated tournaments.