Suggestion.Work out the kinks before messing with elite specs and releasing it, please.

[DarkSoul.2348]

Not only am I confused about such another major overhaul to guardian firebrand, but the timing and state you realised this update in makes it so much worse.Fair it's on me for not keeping up with social media so i got blindsided.However, In my reality i was enjoying my guardian so much again which is my main character, and willbender sounded really cool, I bought EOD.Its a bit of a rough way to do a rework and has know consideration for the impact on player enjoyment. I also cannot understand the rush again from a real player perspective what is my class purpose to be squishy average scuffed class?. Doesn't really live up to its Name.I am an average player no meta elite level gearing stuff.We exist too and probably impacted Harder by these methods.Please consider this and maybe keep the spec interesting and diverse to play not number crunching hard nerfing and gutting of specs and get it closer to feeling nice to play before releasing it.Makes me anxious about playing my alts and spending time and money on them just for history to repeat itself. All classes deserve love and interest and diversity to their playstyle, animation and visual effects to make them fun to play. Its what makes Guild wars 2 combat special and unique from other games and makes a class feel live up to its profession. I have played guild wars since guild wars 1, I voice my opinions as a fan  of guild wars. Bring the specs up not down and move forward not backwards and this game can thrive we have such a great community in the gaming world we should aim to keep that. Have a good day and I hope your creative tanks get refreshed.

[Sindust.7059]

They also butchered mechanist and made it rely on broken mechanics for damage. The mech doesn't always stay within that 360 range even when it's on passive, which makes it impossible to reliably get the stat buff even when doing everything right. It was bad enough that they never bothered to fix the bug that makes signets go on cooldown with no effect when used while the mech is being recalled or when it just got killed, which was reported multiple times since beta. But now we get another bug to deal with.

 

The gameplay of mechanists is at this point 90% dealing with bug workarounds, and that's what they apparently think passes for "fun gameplay".

Edited December 2, 2022 by Sindust.7059

[Varis.5467]

Not to make light of the situation of the recent overhaul on the guardian, however this issue extend to a few other professions. 

 

Recently we have seen the deadeye on the blink of becoming another victim of said treatment. It should not be hard to anticipate the reception of similar changes and Anet really should step up on evaluating the actual impact of balance with the big picture in mind as opposed to playing wrack a moe with anything seemingly "unbalanced". 

[Mungo Zen.9364]

Who cares how the professions actually play?  Anet doesn't!!!!

The hack and slash continues with no consideration to the actual playstyle of any professions.  It is obvious that they are undermanned with a team that doesn't have the time, care or brainpower to find better solutions.

I can't be bothered to play this game seriously when at any moment they may adversely affect multiple profession builds in multiple game modes with a single patch.  Every 2-3 months this past year, there have been major changes to all professions, work that should have and could have been done in one or two patches with a decent team and vision.  After the holidays, we will see another round of hacks and bandaids to clean up this patch and mess with other 'outlier' builds that are 'not performing as we would like'.

It would be nice if Anet let us know what their goals are.  Is it to make all professions relatively unplayable?  To make the playstyle so poor for most builds that the enjoyment of combat is totally gone?

 

[The Boz.2038]

The doomsaying in this thread, sheesh.

A build that needed a nerf got a nerf.
"Being obviously overpowered" is not a playstyle.

[Dr Meta.3158]

Making an elite spec "for the disabled", waiting until it gets a large following, then hitting them all with this rework is a decently impressive level of sadism.

 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

On paper the idea was good.

 

But the execution is just bad and unfun

[Mell.4873]

I prefer this over the lack of changes before EoD launched. The meta then was so stale and the only viable Elites were Firebrand and Scourge, with Mirage or Reaper being really good LI builds due to lifesteal. 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Zaret.1450]

Firebrand had to be nerfed, in fact it still is as easy as before because mantras exist, but niw you need to think before using a tome, that doesnt make it a difficult spec nor an elitist only class nor anything similar, its stab nerfs? the same, just be a tiny bit carefull when to use the stabs you have.

Look if you were complaining about how untamed fervent force makes the rota a high intensity build... ok i could understand, but with firebrand and mecanist youre just complaining about how they nerfed the 2 most overpowered suports in the game that were not only overpowered, but also braindead, i had 4 mecs on a strike a couple days ago, they even had the mec skills on auto, we were in the old lions court strike, a normal run, i didnt even ask for li and was helping some friends, and i see every cc  being done by the mecs alone because they were in auto mode, i had to restart 3 times because of that before they finaly listened and put mecs in passive mode..

As a side note i was with the new hfb, it was the exact same, spam mantras, heal, spam quickness and use tomes for emergency, i mean you can see less stabs... but neople can jump and dodge in pve, and you can bring other stabs in wvw so... please stop with excuses, it didnt become a high intensity nor even a medium difficulty build, same with mecs, a low intensity or a braindead build can be playable and decent, but should never be the top build in every game mode, because i think people effort and skill should also be rewarded.

A low int build can get in a be good, but if im talking about dps for example, a low int should be around 36k top, and a difficult high int build can get to 40k, that for me is fair

[Sindust.7059]

6 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

A low int build can get in a be good, but if im talking about dps for example, a low int should be around 36k top, and a difficult high int build can get to 40k, that for me is fair

So... Mechanist needs a buff then? Because it was at 33k before the patch. Now it's still 33k, but with a buggy mechanic that adds nothing to the spec but annoyance.

[Zaret.1450]

23 hours ago, Sindust.7059 said:

So... Mechanist needs a buff then? Because it was at 33k before the patch. Now it's still 33k, but with a buggy mechanic that adds nothing to the spec but annoyance.

if it is 33k then something is bugged, because i still see 4 mecas or more in scuads, also this mecanic is needed, half the mecanist dmg is the mec, so you can do mecanics and still heal, buff and upkeep dps while any other class has to completely stop doing things in order to do mecanics.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:23 AM, zaswer.5246 said:

As a side note i was with the new hfb, it was the exact same, spam mantras, heal, spam quickness and use tomes for emergency, i mean you can see less stabs... but neople can jump and dodge in pve, and you can bring other stabs in wvw so... please stop with excuses, it didnt become a high intensity nor even a medium difficulty build, same with mecs, a low intensity or a braindead build can be playable and decent, but should never be the top build in every game mode, because i think people effort and skill should also be rewarded.

 

HFB came out of the rework okay, if not a bit more flexible.

It's the Tome of Justice users, CFB and QFB, that just feel terrible to play now. Here's why (link). And this is not a balance issue. If anything they are a bit easier and can push slightly higher DPS. The problem is that the rework gutted their Tome 1 usage, which robs these two builds of their core concept, fun factor, and playability. Even without dipping into the other tomes for support, which was the over tuned part, Tome one is just a sad book of mostly unused skills now. The spirit of the tome is gone.
They also completely changed the playstyle and audience for the spec. FB, and guardian in particular, was a class that allowed casual and LI players to play support builds effectively. Now the spec relies on tracking too many resources that these players usually aren't aware of and can't even figure out why their abilities aren't working properly. Shared pages to nerf the over tuned versatility and constant extra support was fine, but adding instant cast, slower page regen, hidden skill CDs, hidden trait ICDs, tome debuffs, and variable page costs is just too much for the average player to handle. Most players chose the guardian and FB class, and not engineer and thief, for a reason, which was not tied to balance but complexity.

[eXruina.4956]

people don't like it when their candy is taken away. specially if its really good candy.

 

so stay away from my peanut m&m's. mine.

Edited December 5, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[Hashberry.4510]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:23 AM, zaswer.5246 said:

i think people effort and skill should also be rewarded.

I don’t have a dog in these mech fights, but this attitude is ridiculous. You are already rewarded for playing a difficult class well. Smh.

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

I don’t have a dog in these mech fights, but this attitude is ridiculous. You are already rewarded for playing a difficult class well. Smh.

It's a debate as old as gaming itself.

Should mastering a difficult build/character/whatever be reward enough or should they be allowed to vastly overperform everyone else?

I personally consider it the reward for myself. Even if mechanist did the same damage numbers as holosmith, I kept playing holosmith because.... the more intense gameplay was just way more fun.

[Tails.9372]

On 12/2/2022 at 12:23 PM, zaswer.5246 said:

people effort and skill should also be rewarded

And more complex builds already do by offering a gameplay experience which doesn't exist for the more simplistic builds giving the more "skilled players" / "players who are willing to put more effort into it" more gameplay options to choose from. Being able to play them correctly also brings a certain level of recognition by people who care about execution agong which LI builds don't get as they, on the other hand, are often times looked down upon which is a reward in and of itself.

On 12/3/2022 at 6:17 PM, zaswer.5246 said:

this mecanic is needed, half the mecanist dmg is the mec

No it's not, first of the mech only makes up for 20-30% of the damage and even for the LI build most of the so called "passive damage" is in the rifle AA. Taking some damage out of this AA and putting it into skill 2 would have adressed every gameplay related issue they said they wanted to adress in a similar but more effective way without causeing any of the downsides people are taking issue with.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Sindust.7059]

On 12/3/2022 at 6:17 PM, zaswer.5246 said:

if it is 33k then something is bugged

Go check snowcrows benchmark page. It has been at 33k for 2 months. And that's with a grenade kit rotation and manually triggering mech skills, which is anything but an LI build.

Also you are the best example of the kind of people who want to nerf mech: the uninformed ones who don't play mech themselves.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Sindust.7059

[Sweetbread.3678]

6 hours ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

I don’t have a dog in these mech fights, but this attitude is ridiculous. You are already rewarded for playing a difficult class well. Smh.

A higher skill spec needs to be tuned higher than a lower one, because it's harder to pull off and thus more inconsistent. If you have a 20+ rotation condi sword Weaver and a power rifle Mech benching roughly the same numbers on a golem, it's going to end up with the Weaver having significantly lower damage in any real, non-golem situation than the Mech, because the Weaver is actually dealing with fight mechanics, melee range, being made of paper, and managing a complex rotation that can get interrupted while the Mech is just auto spamming with their CC-immune AI ignoring 90% of the fight mechanics. The Weaver will have a good portion of their theoretical top damage siphoned away just from actually having to play the game and deal with mechanics, while the Mechanist will not. 

 

58 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

And more complex builds already do by offering a gameplay experience which doesn't exist for the more simplistic builds giving the more "skilled players" / "players who are willing to put more effort into it" more gameplay options to choose from.

Maybe in overworld content. In anything organized your complex build will be barred from entry because unless the high-skill, inconsistent build is bringing something special to the table besides the warm fuzzy feeling of playing a high-skill build, then it is going to be pushed aside for builds that bring the exact same (if not more) value as it does, while having no inconsistencies or liabilities.

TLDR: If "low-intensity" (read: brain dead) builds are bringing the same value as high-skill ones, the only thing that's going to happen is that high-skill builds will cease to exist in organized content. Build diversity shouldn't be murdered just because you want to play the game in the most simplistic, lazy way imaginable and feel that should entitle you to the throughput of someone  putting in 40 times the effort and brainpower.

[Dadnir.5038]

Objectively, FB tomes allowed FB to do much more than any other guardian's e-specs and they still do after the patch.

The use of tome of justice didn't involved much brain, you always used the same pages in the same order (25412) whenever the tome was opened.

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's a debate as old as gaming itself.

Should mastering a difficult build/character/whatever be reward enough or should they be allowed to vastly overperform everyone else?

I personally consider it the reward for myself. Even if mechanist did the same damage numbers as holosmith, I kept playing holosmith because.... the more intense gameplay was just way more fun.

They should all be designed easy to learn, difficult to master. However, that's asking for a lot from anyone.

[loregnum.3619]

9 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

TLDR: If "low-intensity" (read: brain dead) builds are bringing the same value as high-skill ones, the only thing that's going to happen is that high-skill builds will cease to exist in organized content. Build diversity shouldn't be murdered just because you want to play the game in the most simplistic, lazy way imaginable and feel that should entitle you to the throughput of someone  putting in 40 times the effort and brainpower.

What a bunch of elitist type garbage to refer to it as one being lazy or brain dead. It's also amazing that the mods here who are quick to censor, warn, or delete anything that could be deemed offensive to a single person don't give two rips about this when it is offensive to those that play low intensity builds.

 

Really, mods...how is implying people are brain dead or lazy because of what they consider fun or enjoyable not offensive?

 

Just be consistent in your moderation.

[Sweetbread.3678]

14 hours ago, loregnum.3619 said:

What a bunch of elitist type garbage to refer to it as one being lazy or brain dead.

Show me the lie then. This is literally people advocating for the build that requires the least amount of brain power (brain dead, perhaps an incendiary if not inaccurate term) and effort (lazy, a 100% accurate term that is exactly describing what's going on here) in the entire game to be of equal power as the most complex and hard to pull off ones available to the point of rendering those complex builds completely inviable in organized content. It's absurd entitlement.

Why should the entire paradigm of risk vs. reward be flipped on its head to the detriment of every other playstyle simply because Mechanists who can't be bothered to put in any sort of effort want to faceroll through all content. Sorry, but if other people putting in the actual work to be halfway decent at the game and getting rewarded appropriately for it makes you feel insecure and attacked, then that's a YOU issue, not an elitism issue.

[Dr Meta.3158]

22 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Show me the lie then. This is literally people advocating for the build that requires the least amount of brain power (brain dead, perhaps an incendiary if not inaccurate term) and effort (lazy, a 100% accurate term that is exactly describing what's going on here) in the entire game to be of equal power as the most complex and hard to pull off ones available to the point of rendering those complex builds completely inviable in organized content. It's absurd entitlement.

Why should the entire paradigm of risk vs. reward be flipped on its head to the detriment of every other playstyle simply because Mechanists who can't be bothered to put in any sort of effort want to faceroll through all content. Sorry, but if other people putting in the actual work to be halfway decent at the game and getting rewarded appropriately for it makes you feel insecure and attacked, then that's a YOU issue, not an elitism issue.

What you wrote is all true. But, how you wrote it isn't going to get the point across. Remember that you're dealing with humans, not computers. Even the most logical of them are mostly irrational.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Dr Meta.3158
Phone autocorrect shenanigans

[Hashberry.4510]

On 12/5/2022 at 2:22 PM, Sweetbread.3678 said:

those complex builds completely inviable in organized content

This is the absurd part here. These complex builds are intrinsically more rewarding and fun to play, and that does not change just cause you ain’t getting your sacred spot at the top of the meter. This issue arises because you folks also want to be first choice when picking for pug metas. Talk about entitlement. Form your own group.

[Chips.7968]

You aren't seriously expecting testing are you? Just look at the patches post every release for a giggle...