Pvp, WvW, and the terrible class balance.

[Ashlin.3708]

If anet isnt going to balance the new EoD elite specs to be in line with the rest of the specs, they shouldn't be allowed in PvP or WvW. its an unfair game and they have done this on purpose to make people all but have to buy EoD or be at a massive disadvantage which is just plan WRONG. Im sick of this game being ruined by the terrible balance and favoritism of the devs.

[Veprovina.4876]

Firebrand isn't an EoD spec, what are you talking about?

[Chips.7968]

2 hours ago, Ashlin.3708 said:

Im sick of this game being ruined by the terrible balance and favoritism of the devs.

It's balanced exactly how they want it. The fact that isn't what you want is irrelevant. Try looking from another perspective, what could possibly be the motivator...

[Mell.4873]

Give us an example otherwise your just platforming nothing. 

Last patch they completely ruined Mechanist and Engineer Rifle in PvP/WvW. That goes against favoritism mostly due to out cry from the player base much like Firebrand. 

[oscuro.9720]

A quick look at meta battle (a fine enough resource for this conversation imo) would show you that 3/6 listed “meta” builds are non eod. 11/15 “great” builds are non-EOD. EOD specs are actually quite balanced presently. If you are losing to them, perhaps to look to any of the other reasons you are losing the matchup such as;

poor gear, poor build, poor dodging, poor cooldown management, failing to track the opponents bar, falling for obvious baits, poor skill use, poor combos, the other person is just better than you, their specific build/spec counters your specific build/spec. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Burial.1958]

14 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

It's balanced exactly how they want it. The fact that isn't what you want is irrelevant. Try looking from another perspective, what could possibly be the motivator...

Balancing is a neverending story and there will be never a perfect balance.

 

11 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Give us an example otherwise your just platforming nothing. 

Last patch they completely ruined Mechanist and Engineer Rifle in PvP/WvW. That goes against favoritism mostly due to out cry from the player base much like Firebrand. 

The nerf was good. It is really unfun get spammed to death with pressing 1 button where youself have to play piano to survive the spam.

[Mell.4873]

15 minutes ago, Burial.1958 said:

The nerf was good. It is really unfun get spammed to death with pressing 1 button where youself have to play piano to survive the spam.

But that would contradict the Authors point. I also never said it was a bad thing since I agree with nerf as well. 

The main problem I had was Scappers being able to chase you with Quickness Rifle auto spam while being Super Speeded. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Dadnir.5038]

Could the OP please be a bit more specific?

- Are you talking about small scale PvP, large scale PvP (zerg fight) or both?

- Which specific e-spec(s) do you have griefs with? And why?

I mean, right now, even if few core professions really shine, there is an healthy variety of the 3 e-specs generations that are viable in competitive modes.

[Fueki.4753]

The problem isn't that there is no terrible balance in this game. The problem is that there is no balance in this game at all.

They don't even attempt going for balance. All they do are changes for the sake of changing things.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The problem isn't that there is no terrible balance in this game. The problem is that there is no balance in this game at all.

They don't even attempt going for balance. All they do are changes for the sake of changing things.

I believe is most driven my numbers. To many player play this, we'll let's nerf it. Not enough players play this then buff it. This carries on down to skills and traits. 

Untill recently with there new design philosophy this is how they operated. 

[Fueki.4753]

22 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Until recently with there new design philosophy this is how they operated. 

I've yet to see any changes to how they operate.

Their "new design philosophy" has yet to bear fruit.

[Mell.4873]

5 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I've yet to see any changes to how they operate.

Their "new design philosophy" has yet to bear fruit.

True and we have no clue if they will follow though with it. Most of the time it is still driven by numbers. 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

On one side of the spectrum we have Mechanist that is even worse than core Engineer for PvP which is quite an achievement in itself.

 

On the other side of the spectrum we have Harbringer that still has a busted shroud and mobility. I guess I can put Willbender here because of its burst and mobility, almost making it a blue thief in heavy armor.

 

Not every EoD spec are balanced equally

[Ragnar.4257]

On 12/15/2022 at 10:46 AM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

On one side of the spectrum we have Mechanist that is even worse than core Engineer for PvP which is quite an achievement in itself.

 

On the other side of the spectrum we have Harbringer that still has a busted shroud and mobility. I guess I can put Willbender here because of its burst and mobility, almost making it a blue thief in heavy armor.

 

Not every EoD spec are balanced equally

Have you considered joining ANet? Because your reaction-time to meta shifts is about as slow as theirs.

Neither Harb or WB have been considered top-tier for PvP since June. Current top-tier specs are Tempest/Cata, Untamed, Vindicator, Spellbreaker, Chrono, and probably now Holo with latest patch.

Mechanist is unfortunately probably doomed to never be good in PvP, since a spec that heavily relies on passive AI should never be allowed to dominate in PvP (same logic also applies to things like minion-mancer). Its called Player vs Player, not Player vs Bot. But that's not really a balance issue, its a design issue. Whoever designed mech clearly had no intention of making something suitable for PvP/WvW.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Kodama.6453]

12 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Have you considered joining ANet? Because your reaction-time to meta shifts is about as slow as theirs.

Neither Harb or WB have been considered top-tier for PvP since June. Current top-tier specs are Tempest/Cata, Untamed, Vindicator, Spellbreaker, Chrono, and probably now Holo with latest patch.

Mechanist is unfortunately probably doomed to never be good in PvP, since a spec that heavily relies on passive AI should never be allowed to dominate in PvP (same logic also applies to things like minion-mancer). Its called Player vs Player, not Player vs Bot. But that's not really a balance issue, its a design issue. Whoever designed mech clearly had no intention of making something suitable for PvP/WvW.

True, we have seen for years that Anet doesn't want AI relying classes to be viable in PvP. Another example is the absolute murder of turrets back in the day, making them useless in every game mode.

But this makes me wonder why untamed, which also relies on a pet, is allowed to be a top tier pvp spec currently.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

But this makes me wonder why untamed, which also relies on a pet, is allowed to be a top tier pvp spec currently.

Maybe it's just waiting for its turn.

The large visual displeasure possibly had priority.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Ragnar.4257]

8 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

True, we have seen for years that Anet doesn't want AI relying classes to be viable in PvP. Another example is the absolute murder of turrets back in the day, making them useless in every game mode.

But this makes me wonder why untamed, which also relies on a pet, is allowed to be a top tier pvp spec currently.

And rightly so, it's not just ANet who doesn't want AI to be viable in PvP, nobody serious about PvP wants that.

IMO the difference between Mech and Ranger is that with ranger most of the work is still being done by the ranger themselves, the pet is mostly irrelevant outside of directly player-activated abilities, and there are ways to build ranger that can pretty much ignore the pet as a mechanic. Whereas the jade-bot is much more intinsically embedded into the mech traits and provides (or at least used to provide) much more passive value. But you're right that its similar, just a question of degree.

[Ragnar.4257]

8 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

True, we have seen for years that Anet doesn't want AI relying classes to be viable in PvP. Another example is the absolute murder of turrets back in the day, making them useless in every game mode.

But this makes me wonder why untamed, which also relies on a pet, is allowed to be a top tier pvp spec currently.

And rightly so, it's not just ANet who doesn't want AI to be viable in PvP, nobody serious about PvP wants that.

IMO the difference between Mech and Ranger is that with ranger most of the work is still being done by the ranger themselves, the pet is mostly irrelevant outside of directly player-activated abilities, and there are ways to build ranger that can pretty much ignore the pet as a mechanic. Whereas the jade-bot is much more intinsically embedded into the mech traits and provides (or at least used to provide) much more passive value. But you're right that its similar, just a question of degree.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

On 12/13/2022 at 9:42 PM, Ashlin.3708 said:

If anet isnt going to balance the new EoD elite specs to be in line with the rest of the specs, they shouldn't be allowed in PvP or WvW. its an unfair game and they have done this on purpose to make people all but have to buy EoD or be at a massive disadvantage which is just plan WRONG. Im sick of this game being ruined by the terrible balance and favoritism of the devs.

 

Some other specs are still in the meta but they do what you say every expansion for me this isn't even the point . The point is they dictate what builds are meta in which content by mostly nerfing stuff and its not the type of balance of we do *this* and *that* and we stick with it. No they doing it dynamically by checking their metrics if they are still meta if not they double down on it.

 

This has consequences:

 

A) Most build options are nonsense despite the fact there are so many options because every time someone find a better or different way to do x . Arena.NET comes around the corner with the nerf  hammer.  In sPvP/Wvw this is maybe legit but we all know especially there they dictate which builds are meta. In the end you have a big pile of junk made out of  trait(lines), runes, sigils and stats.

 

B) People who love build theory stopped sharing their builds publicly so much or stopped entirely . Yes there are still builds public but everyone at this point should be clear that Arena.NET will nerf this build if it catch their eyes too much.

 

C) The most screwed up thing is GW2 is still a game where you invest a lot in your main character and if your spec falls out of meta 😭. Other games went away from this concept by separating char and spec .

 

In general there are ways to make a more elastic Meta but what Arena.NET is doing is tightening it harder and harder. In general if you want an elastic Meta you need to accept that things gets a bit wacky and take in account from a PvE side that difficulties could be cheesed here and there.

 

 

[jaif.3518]

I think it would be wiser to compare core to expansions.  Some core classes really struggle vs the meta.  For example, elementalist core is simply inferior to the expansion classes.

[Tammuz.7361]

On 12/13/2022 at 3:42 PM, Ashlin.3708 said:

If anet isnt going to balance the new EoD elite specs to be in line with the rest of the specs, they shouldn't be allowed in PvP or WvW. its an unfair game and they have done this on purpose to make people all but have to buy EoD or be at a massive disadvantage which is just plan WRONG. Im sick of this game being ruined by the terrible balance and favoritism of the devs.

 

Err, which EoD classes are meta in WvW zerg play at the moment?

 

Cause last I checked: healer vindicator was somewhat PLAYABLE (not really meta even) and that was about the sum total of what EoD has even brought to WvW at this point.  (everything else from EoD being subpar or unplayable in most cases).

Edited December 20, 2022 by Tammuz.7361