defense spellbreaker overperforming unacceptably

[Spellhunter.9675]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

No, it's annoying. 

It was far more annoying and less fun to have warrior just hard lose to most builds before the adjustments to defense, though. And I can name three annoying builds for every class.

It's a bit like demagoguery.

 

I was loving to play against war and most of it's builds due to the most fair mechanic and clear animations and combat patterns. It always felt fair even prior rampage nerf. Even hambow in vanilla felt fair for me.

But then EoD came and bring that bladesworn. Ok, it's nerfed (I'd say it's overnerfed).

And now we have that defense hammer build. Which is fairly easy to play and left very little room to counterplay. This doesn't seem fair for me. I strongly believe Stalwart Strenght should have actual ICD. 

 

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Annoying isn't the metric by which Anet does or should balance.

Since it is a GAME it should not have anything annoying. For me, this should be an actual metric. And anet's inability to use this metric is one of the reasons competitive scene failed.

 

All I'm saying is just my thoughts. I'm not pretending like it is ultimate truth.

[Sahne.6950]

Actually... i think annoying and Counterplayability is a factor when it comes to balancing.

 

riflemechanist was never meta or anything. no real presence in MAT... but people were complaining cuz it was annoying and new players couldnt deal with it. got nerfed into oblivion

 

Trapper runes is the next example.  By the time they nerfed it, not a single metabuild would use the rune. But the complaints wouldnt stop so they nerfed it to the grave.

 

I think the new Spellbreakerbuilds that are spawning fall into the same category.    While i am happy that finally Warrior is topdog for pvp.....    i think think that the Condibreakerduellist that we saw in last MAT is problematic...

This isnt even a L2P thing like mechanist was. If you knew how, mechanist was very easy to shutdown.  Condibreaker on the other hand... Can only be stopped by very specific builds.  You need a lot of CC so you can shut it down, as its lacking stabi and stunbreaks... but if you build doenst have multiple stuns there is very little you can do to get him off your node, even in a 2v1.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Hotride.2187]

7 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I think the new Spellbreakerbuilds that are spawning fall into the same category.    While i am happy that finally Warrior is topdog for pvp.....    i think think that the Condibreakerduellist that we saw in last MAT is problematic...

Yeah that thing needs to go. It just never dies and its not harmless with the dmg either.

[Sahne.6950]

6 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Yeah that thing needs to go. It just never dies and its not harmless with the dmg either.

it does die....   but the      effort <-> result ratio       is completly out of hand 😄  

I dont play alot of warrior... i created a warrior slapped on this build and grinded thru the whole 2v2 season with it.....  

This build is quite effective for how little brain is required. 😄

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Dadnir.5038]

12 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

needs nerfing asap, been playing 10  years this is the most OP kitten i've seen so far. it has everything..

If I had to sum up the 10 000 ish threads in the sPvP subforum I'd definitely use this line.

12 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

This build is quite effective for how little brain is required

I'd use this line as well...

Edited December 21, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Lysico.4906

Allow me to explain this from the 1v1 PvP Ladder standpoint. Here we get plenty of time vs. builds like Hammer Spellbreaker being up in our faces during elongated 1v1 situations, where we really get to focus on every small detail of the build vs. build interactions because we aren't worried about everything else going on in the Conquest game around us.

People view Hammer Spellbreaker as either 1) Impossible to deal with, or 2) It's not that different than any other Spellbreaker build we've seen. This is because of how it gets Stability on every CC that it lands. It all amounts down to this effect that Hammer Spellbreaker creates while interacting with the intra-class dynamic:

1. If a class/build has many Stability effects available or instant no-animation defensive skills such as Guardian Focus #5 that can be used at the same time while offensing, that class/build can prevent the Hammer Spellbreaker from actually "disabling" them to begin its Stability cycling. This allows them to be able to land crippling CC chains on the Hammer Spellbreaker to be able to deal damage to it, if not find openings to 1-burst it into the ground with CC chains. Players using these kinds of builds view Hammer Spellbreaker as not too much different than any other Spellbreaker we've seen.
2. If a class/build has too little access to Stability or none at all, they cannot deny the Hammer Spellbreaker of his Stability cycling, and neither can they offense while defensing to land DPS through the CCs when they don't have access to instant no-animation defensive skills such as Guardian Focus #5. This results in a situation where a class is forced to over-utilize the animation-locking defensive skills they possess that prevent them from being able to offense during those time frames. This greatly diminishes the amount of DPS being pumped towards the Spellbreaker to even begin to threaten a kill on it. They have to do this because they cannot afford to get hit even once. If the Hammer Spellbreaker hits them even once, he begins cycling Stability on a CC chain because almost every single strike from a Hammer Spellbreaker is a CC. When it begins cycling CC, any opening the player may have had to land a CC for a burst, is ruined. This puts the Hammer Spellbreaker into a bully position where all he has to do is maintain offensive pressure for a very easy kill. When the other player has no Stability and even if he has access to a couple of stun breaks, it isn't enough. The H Spellbreaker once it begins cycling Stability, puts that player completely on the defense to where if he attempts to deal DPS at all, he can't because he can't land CCs, usually resulting in the attempted offense being a huge mistake, and the player getting himself killed in a single burst from the H Spellbreaker. It is very easy for the H Spellbreaker to bait out a couple stun breaks from any build, when just about every single strike from the H Spellbreaker is a CC. All it has to do is land 1x CC against a player who has no Stab & no stun breaks, and the match is over. They won't be getting off the ground again.

To narrow down exactly what the problem is with Hammer Spellbreaker vs. little to no Stability builds that have no instant use defensive skills that allow offensing while defensing, it is this trait: Stalwart Strength - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). The listed duration of Stability from this trait is 5s in pve, 3s in pvp, and only a 1/4th second CD for its activation. First of all, with only a 1/4th second activation CD, it may as well not have a CD at all. That is so short of a time frame that if you were to hit someone with Full Counter, and then go into a Bull's Charge, hit with Dagger #3 and then with Shield #4, you'd have 4-5 stacks of intensity for your Stability. Second of all, 3s duration of the Stability per proc is too long for pvp on a build that almost every strike it throws is a CC. What's happening is that the H Spellbreaker often is cycling 2 stacks of intensity or more with his Stability. This is incredibly easy to maintain because Full Counter also grants Stability Full Counter - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) and so this is an easy 2 stack of Stability from a single Full Counter due to Stalwart Strength. When we add in CC chains with Stalwart, the Stab stacks begin to average 2-3 or even 4 on average while in combat, when a good player is wielding the Hammer Spellbreaker.  This means that even if the person stun breaks and gets up from a H Spellbreaker assault, he is looking at needing to burn 2 to 3 or 4 CCs all at once in a chain, to even have a chance to create an opening for counterplay vs. the H Spellbreaker's relentless CC assault. If that player can actually bottom out the Stab stacks and land a burst, he better hope it kills the H Spellbreaker in one go because if the H Spellbreaker gets up, that player isn't going to have offensive resources left and may as well disengage the combat. It's those Stab stacks that 100% completely negates many classes/builds from being able to find any counterplay vs. the H Spellbreaker.

Juggernaut or Lich pulses 3s of Stab once per 3s. So even vs. Juggernaut or Lich, you only need to toss 2x consecutive CCs to actually be able to CC them. The H Spellbreaker's Stability uptime in the hands of a good player is far stronger than even Juggernaut or Lich.

Again, some builds have a lot of Stab & instant use passive shields and what have you, to prevent that Stab cycle on H Spellbreaker, but at least half or more of the classes/builds in the game do not. This is where we get a large disparity of difference in opinion between if people feel Hammer Spellbreaker is somewhat balanced or if it's seriously overperforming.

I don' feel the problem is CC output or DPS output. The problem is Stalwart Strength - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). It's allowing the Hammer Spellbreaker to benefit too many stacks of Stability. There are plenty of ways this could be handled. The ICD on Stalwart could be increased, which I feel is the sloppier approach. I feel the healthier approach would be to turn the 3s Stability duration on Stalwart down to 2s. This would make a larger difference in its Stability potential than what most people may realize. It would greatly reduce the amount of Stab stacking that the H Spellbreaker would be capable of, and any stacks he accumulated would diminish more quickly, presenting more frequent opportunities to actually land CCs on the H Spellbreaker for counterplay.

I can't help to imagine how much of an absolute frontline monster this build structure would be in WvW as a Hambow wearing Celestial stats with Durability Runes, sigils of Draining & Absorption "look at what they do in pve/wvw, read it carefully" Superior Sigil of Draining - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) - Superior Sigil of Absorption - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) draining has no CD and absorption has only 3s CD per player. And then of course the proper food/utility. We're talking ranged AoE power/condi damage, massive CC potential that steals 3 boons per target struck in an AoE, heals the Spellbreaker for 1000 health per target struck in every AoE CC, along with classic Hambow might stacking and infinitely cycling permanent self sustained Stability in conjunction with ALL the boons it is stealing. This build wouldn't need Supports behind it.

Might have to try it out.

Three things that need clarification:

1. 1 boon corruption, or1 steal from a Bountiful Thief, and that Spellbreaker is now in the reverse situation. People do not realize that dependance on Boons is a double-edged sword that several classes have counters for. I'm convinced most of the QQ here is from people not bringing the tools they need for the fight.
2. Sigil of Draining only steals HP if it actually interrupts a skill, not hitting with a CC.
3. Absorption has a 10s CD now, which is a very recent change.

So no, you are not going to steal 1000 from every foe you hit with a CC, nor will you be stealing the amount of boons you think you are. It would be fun though, especially if they ever port the daze on LB4 into WvW/PvP that they gave it in PvE.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

12 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

What an unfortunate development. How should they nerf it? 

FC cd goes up to 20s. If it's procced, half of that CD is refunded (so it goes back to whatever it is now)
A good spellbreaker will play exactly like now. A spellbreaker spamming FC at the wrong moment can get punished properly. Because, believe it or not, dagger\shield spellbreaker is still really kittening good, and condi spellbreaker is yet another unkillable thing just shitting on a node, and hammer spellbreaker is what it is IDK (feels honestly fairier to fight than daggers leaping for 7k unbloackble with an animation that looks way too similar to the blockable leap), and all of this boils down to spellbreakers having access to a "don't touch me" button covering them for 2s every 10s. Which is way too kittening much.

I'm not even going to comment the guy who claimed "just CC lock the warrior", at this point we're reaching a level of JUST FORUM that it's even offensive to consider.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

19 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

FC cd goes up to 20s. If it's procced, half of that CD is refunded (so it goes back to whatever it is now)
A good spellbreaker will play exactly like now. A spellbreaker spamming FC at the wrong moment can get punished properly. Because, believe it or not, dagger\shield spellbreaker is still really kittening good, and condi spellbreaker is yet another unkillable thing just shitting on a node, and hammer spellbreaker is what it is IDK (feels honestly fairier to fight than daggers leaping for 7k unbloackble with an animation that looks way too similar to the blockable leap), and all of this boils down to spellbreakers having access to a "don't touch me" button covering them for 2s every 10s. Which is way too kittening much.

I'm not even going to comment the guy who claimed "just CC lock the warrior", at this point we're reaching a level of JUST FORUM that it's even offensive to consider.

Can the profession mechanics of the other professions get that same treatment then?

Also, Dagger 2 has a horizontal slice animation and F1 has an overhand strike animation ending in a landing jab. The only part of those two skills that is similar is the initial leap frames, but after that you have this nice glowing yellow particle trail showing if it is the horizontal slice or the overhand strike with enough time to differentiate between the two and act accordingly.

Also, this thread:
Scissors: Rock is OP
Rock: Dude play paper instead
Scissors: *Shocked Pikachu Face*

[Terrorhuz.4695]

bruh

Edited December 21, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695
bruh

[Terrorhuz.4695]

36 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Can the profession mechanics of the other professions get that same treatment then?

I'm a chronomancer, the CD on my defensive mechanic is more than twice the one I proposed for a badly used FC.

36 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Also, Dagger 2 has a horizontal slice animation and F1 has an overhand strike animation ending in a landing jab

BRUH I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF A BATTLE WITH 9 OTHER PLAYERS PRESSING 3 BUTTONS PER SECOND I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME TO CHECK THE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT ANGLE OF THE 0.2m DAGGER THIS 0.5m ASURA IS TRYING TO STICK IN ME IT'S JUST NOT kittenING READABLE

Edited December 21, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Absorption has a 10s CD now, which is a very recent change.

If you scroll to the bottom of the page, they list the split between pve and players. It does have only a 3s CD vs. players.

[Fueki.4753]

Maybe you should just learn how to play against it instead of complaining about anything of Warrior being oh-so-OP.

Warrior has the most simplistic abilities with very obvious animations that are hardly covered with particle vomit.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Maybe you should just learn how to play against it instead of complaining about anything of Warrior being oh-so-OP.

Warrior has the most simplistic abilities with very obvious animations that are hardly covered with particle vomit.

^ Seriously, Defense just got the changes, perhaps some people need to spend the time learning and adapting to the new meta.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

31 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

BRUH I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF A BATTLE WITH 9 OTHER PLAYERS PRESSING 3 BUTTONS PER SECOND I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME TO CHECK THE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT ANGLE OF THE DAGGER THIS ASURA IS TRYING TO STICK IN ME IT'S JUST NOT kittenING READABLE

So, do you also have problems with Necro Staff 5? 

I'll give you credit on the Asuran animations though; those are a lot less obvious no matter what class they are running.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

35 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

bruh

bruh (I kind of want to see what you edited out but /meh its cool).

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

bruh (I kind of want to see what you edited out but /meh its cool).

my fingers are thicker than a bowl of eatmeal and I sent the same message twice, that's pretty much it.

  

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

So, do you also have problems with Necro Staff 5?

Necro staff 4, actually, because (once again) it's some unblockable thing with a metric kittenton of damage you can't really tell from the rest.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Zekent.3652]

"The most op thing in10 years" LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

It's your 2nd post in less than 2 weeks whining about warrior this month, are u fine?

Condi spb is disgusting, untamed stealth + port + maul is not fair, complaining about other things than that on those specs, has high chances of being a L2P issue

"The most op thing in 10 years" bruh xDDD

Edited December 21, 2022 by Zizekent.2398

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

my fingers are thicker than a bowl of eatmeal and I sent the same message twice, that's pretty much it.

  

I've been there. No worries there mate.

2 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Necro staff 4, actually, because (once again) it's some unblockable thing with a metric kittenton of damage you can't really tell from the rest.

I've seen people complain about 5 more than the others since it is the fear, but the animation on the casting hand is different than the rest. The other marks are almost entirely the same though.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I've been there. No worries there mate.

I've seen people complain about 5 more than the others since it is the fear, but the animation on the casting hand is different than the rest. The other marks are almost entirely the same though.

I can deal with 1s fear, but the unblockable 4k damage and the unblockable forever chilled are problematic.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Stalwart Strength isn't the problem; nerfing it would be another example of "nerf core traits to target a single elite spec" methodology. All warrior builds have access to SS but only SpB is remotely strong with it. That's a SpB issue, not a stalwart strength issue.

 

I do think it's worth pointing out that builds that take SS are NOT taking cleansing ire, and are thus very susceptible to condi builds. Personally, I rarely run SS for this reason; the survival (in a conquest match) is generally better with the condi cleanse (which is consistent) compared to random bits of stab that I can't control. In other words, I think the counters to hammer SpB running SS are there; people need time to figure it out and adapt.

 

That aside, if you're gonna nerf SpB, the way to do it would be to increase the CD of full counter. Why? Most of SpB's offense and defense runs through that one skill, and making it even a little less available would nerf SpB on both fronts. FC currently has a 8.75s CD of you are running Discipline (that's actually a bug, I think...the base CD is 12s and Discipline gives a 15% burst CD reduction, so it should be 10.2s). Make it so that FC has a 10s CD when you run Discipline and see how it goes. If it needs more, nerf it more, but I suspect that will make a significant impact.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

14 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Stalwart Strength isn't the problem; nerfing it would be another example of "nerf core traits to target a single elite spec" methodology. All warrior builds have access to SS but only SpB is remotely strong with it. That's a SpB issue, not a stalwart strength issue.

 

I do think it's worth pointing out that builds that take SS are NOT taking cleansing ire, and are thus very susceptible to condi builds. Personally, I rarely run SS for this reason; the survival (in a conquest match) is generally better with the condi cleanse (which is consistent) compared to random bits of stab that I can't control. In other words, I think the counters to hammer SpB running SS are there; people need time to figure it out and adapt.

This is the issue. People have not spent the time to learn how to play against it and are instead QQing on the forum. You counter it with boon hate and condi if they run SS, and if they run CI you bully them from afar and CC them. IF you can't do that, then you encountered a counter to your build and you need to go to another area to fight or bring a teammate with you.

14 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

That aside, if you're gonna nerf SpB, the way to do it would be to increase the CD of full counter. Why? Most of SpB's offense and defense runs through that one skill, and making it even a little less available would nerf SpB on both fronts. FC currently has a 8.75s CD of you are running Discipline (that's actually a bug, I think...the base CD is 12s and Discipline gives a 15% burst CD reduction, so it should be 10.2s). Make it so that FC has a 10s CD when you run Discipline and see how it goes. If it needs more, nerf it more, but I suspect that will make a significant impact.

It is a bug. It has been pointed out in the past several times and Anet hasn't acted on it. Probably because Spellbreaker and warrior in general were going through a rough balance at that time. If anything, I think fixing that bug would be the most meaningful change to the spec.

When they do that, I'd like them to revisit Revenge Counter, have it remove the daze and do actual damage in exchange.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Warrior to strong is always a skill issue.

[Hotride.2187]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

FC cd goes up to 20s. If it's procced, half of that CD is refunded (so it goes back to whatever it is now)
A good spellbreaker will play exactly like now. A spellbreaker spamming FC at the wrong moment can get punished properly.

As long as "going off" means, someone triggers FC and there is no need for it to connect (cause even a blind person can dodge the retaliation AoE).

Though this will only work with the current defense (you will need the sustain), since most of the time you get pressured into using FC and then the person you are dueling either does an unblockable or just waits for a moment. Especially with the high burst you'll more than likely eat even before you have adrenaline to use FC. If the sustain from defense is gone, you'll be paper again that needs to run shield, endure pain and energy shield just to no get deleted by any roamer.

Though IMO this is the wrong thing to nerf. Spb was more than rare for all the time I've played now. Only after the defense, banner and hammer reworks (and dagger buffs honestly) is it everywhere.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

As long as "going off" means, someone triggers FC and there is no need for it to connect (cause even a blind person can dodge the retaliation AoE).

It means triggering; connecting is different.

Truth be told: it wouldn't be NEARLY enough. Anyone with two fingers would still be able to proc full counter at will, thanks to the very nature of several classes (unstowable attacks, lingering AoE that may not deal any damage but are still there, NPCs and what not), but at least someone unable to do that would have a window to get punished, rather than just giving half a kitten because HEY FREE BLOCK.

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Though this will only work with the current defense (you will need the sustain), since most of the time you get pressured into using FC and then the person you are dueling either does an unblockable or just waits for a moment

Listen you have 19k HP and heavy armor and mending; even if you eat a burst you really have all the tools to make do. Stop acting like you're an elementalist, you're not.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Since it is a GAME it should not have anything annoying. For me, this should be an actual metric. And anet's inability to use this metric is one of the reasons competitive scene failed.

 

Name one competitive game that doesn't have annoying mechanics, or any competitive interactions that are devoid of annoyance. You can't.

They shouldn't be the -focus- of competitive games, but even if a thousand developers pore over balance to make sure interactions are fair and frustration-free, the moment it goes live it will take seconds for someone to be obnoxious in those interactions. What matters is "Is the interaction fair given the capabilities of the class?" And given warrior has a ton of hurdles to cross put itself in and remain in melee range to -use- that hammer, that interaction and the traits that support it are fair. If you disagree specify. 

 

Humor me though. How would you make the interaction -not- annoying, while still making sure warriors want to play/ get rewarded for playing their class?

 

3 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

THIS 0.5m ASURA IS TRYING TO STICK IN ME IT'S JUST NOT kittenING READABLE

 

Standard enemy models. Also ditto what Lan said. after doing some more sparring, the twirl is dagger 2, the burst is a leap like heartseeker.