Brief History Of Elementalist Patching - A Highlight Of Overperformance & Balance Neglect

[greedywholesome.9081]

Why aren't you working as a consultant for Anet? Going off topic for a moment here but I'm quite impressed with the quality of your content. I'd pay a premium for evergreen content of this caliber.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

All the scepter buff did, was seriously over-buff Elementalist

 

I prefer delivering direct damage over condi and played FA on core pre xpac. It took impeccable timing and lots and lots of practice to land FA combo burst and it was often for a single target. With the scepter buff, landing combos became so eazy-chair I felt anet gave Cata a free hack/mod server side access. Combine that with the Cata elite and AoE procs, it's gg. 

 

When I mentioned buffing counters, I didn't specifically have just damage in mind. Corrupting boons and giving back chill damage to core necro and reaper would be interesting. 

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Since we are in a state where most things are doing everything, natural class counters are almost entirely diminished at this point

 

Yes, I get downed by things that arent supposed to and vice-versa 🙂 Remember the days when necro countered guard, engie and ele while ranger free casted the necro and thief decap far, warrior downed necro from spawn then mesmer 2 second combos the warrior, portals to mid and scavenges for ez kills. I miss those days. 

 

Most roles are ubiquitous now so anything that can kill fast and have super mobility will reign supreme. Your tier list reflects that. \

I don't have any beef against Spb because they have counters...except for ones in the top 10 in EU atm. Those guys play at another dimension. 

 

I pretty much agree with everything you wrote and appreciate the fact that you were mostly unbiased. 

 

While you did categorize Cata as higher tier than the other Ele elites, I still feel the FA Cata is the biggest culprit of this madness and should get looked at instead of nerfing the class. 

 

Great read Trevor. If I had alts, I'd log on and give you lotsa emojis 🥰😍🙃

[semak.7481]

TB, you are on my block list, accidentally seen it from a phone, not looking through 4500 post that makes no sense, the only reason I remember it, because of ridiculous claim that mesmer has too many reflects, lmao.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

8 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

not looking through 4500 post that makes no sense

Didn't think so, because it's not there.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Anyone else notice the extra stupid effect Dragon Tooth has where it like desynchs and you can't even read the telegraph correctly? Yeah that's getting old. Pretty sure some Eles have figured out how to do it on purpose so it's that much harder to dodge properly.

[semak.7481]

On 1/19/2023 at 6:19 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Didn't think so, because it's not there.

Fine, here you go, complaining about reflects on mesmer and ele at the same post.

I guess, some inspi mesmer ended your whole condi ranger career /shrug

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

Fine, here you go, complaining about reflects on mesmer and ele at the same post.

I guess, some inspi mesmer ended your whole condi ranger career /shrug

That's not complaining about projectile reflect, that's mentioning reflect while complaining about overall damage immunity amongst invulns/evades/cleanses/blocks/everything Mesmer has in its defensive repertoire.

Nice shot though. Thanks for the bump.

[semak.7481]

1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

That's not complaining about projectile reflect, that's mentioning reflect while complaining about overall damage immunity amongst invulns/evades/cleanses/blocks/everything Mesmer has in its defensive repertoire.

Nice shot though. Thanks for the bump.

Complains about reflects on mesmer/ele? Check.

Denies complaining despite the evidence? Check.

Back to block list. Check.

[Sahne.6950]

Flooding a thread with unnecessary salt? Check.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Flooding a thread with unnecessary salt? Check.

But it's the PvP forum. The salt is indeed necessary.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

But it's the PvP forum. The salt is indeed necessary.

Tastes bland without salt.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Tastes bland without salt.

Hey, you could always make it spicier.

[apharma.3741]

On 1/17/2023 at 5:15 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I know, it must be very difficult for you and other players to deal with bs that Ele had to deal with since 2012. Welcome in reality, it's not roses and rainbows as you though behind SM walls. 🤧

I think criticisms about scepter being obnoxious especially blinds after the rework are grounded in reality, few reworks have ever been spot on.
The main problem with catalyst in my opinion is that it can spam auras and stab on aura is overtuned. Magnetic and shocking aura are incredibly strong for what they counter.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

One thing missing from OP is the biggest problem caused by something reaching T4 OP, which is that the devs no longer have access to valid metrics in regards to other classes, making data for any future balance decisions unreliable. This is because upon reaching the status of "Broken" the entire meta will revolve around the broken spec. A T4 OP spec will be played every game, other classes must tweak their builds to have a way to deal with it. This means the Broken spec is indirectly affecting the balance of how other specs interact with each other independently of the Broken spec. Certain specs that would be viable are not viable simply because they instantly lose to the T4, so they see less play, and thus other specs that those specs might counter see more play even in situations where the T4 spec is not present. So class play stats, win stats, skill usage, average trait choice, and every other possible base metric the balance team may use to try and understand wtf is going on ends up becoming distorted around the T4. Cata is absolutely causing this problem. TL;DR of current Meta: You either play Cata, play something that doesn't instantly die to Cata, or you lose games.

This is why it's critical to Emergency nerf a T4 rather than wait for the next large balance patch. Even though I main rev, I was glad when they emergency nerfed Vindicators endurance regen post 2 dodge buff, because I knew if they didn't the entire meta would start to shift around how busted it was. Unfortunately, this standard, for some inexplicable reason, is not applied to all classes. And so metas get ruined time and time again only to be followed up by balance patches that may correctly nerf the T4 spec but then incorrectly nerf/buff other classes.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

In regard to the T4 OP spec, perhaps giving a means to rip an Aura from a target is a mechanic that should be added to the game, and give it to Mesmer, Thief, and Warrior (one of each weight class) either via a core skill/utility or via an elite spec.

Aura Slicer on Spellbreaker and Dispelling Force being obvious choices for warrior, but I can see it on Bountiful Theft on Thief as well. Could also work on Mind Spike on Mesmer.

[apharma.3741]

16 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

In regard to the T4 OP spec, perhaps giving a means to rip an Aura from a target is a mechanic that should be added to the game, and give it to Mesmer, Thief, and Warrior (one of each weight class) either via a core skill/utility or via an elite spec.

Aura Slicer on Spellbreaker and Dispelling Force being obvious choices for warrior, but I can see it on Bountiful Theft on Thief as well. Could also work on Mind Spike on Mesmer.

A better suggestion: Vicious Expression
However I don't think there needs to be a counter to auras, they just need to not be spammed out like catalyst can. Technically tempest can spit out a lot of auras but the majority of it's spam is fire aura, though if you play carefully you can maintain ~12s of shocking aura on your team.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

A better suggestion: Vicious Expression
However I don't think there needs to be a counter to auras, they just need to not be spammed out like catalyst can. Technically tempest can spit out a lot of auras but the majority of it's spam is fire aura, though if you play carefully you can maintain ~12s of shocking aura on your team.

That is a better suggestion.

Personally, there should be a counter to everything for balanced gameplay. To me Auras should have a counter, and things like evades do as well. Its when something can over leverage gameplay elements with no counter that they become OP, so building counters into the game helps create a better build ecosystem.

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

One thing missing from OP is the biggest problem caused by something reaching T4 OP, which is that the devs no longer have access to valid metrics in regards to other classes, making data for any future balance decisions unreliable. This is because upon reaching the status of "Broken" the entire meta will revolve around the broken spec. A T4 OP spec will be played every game, other classes must tweak their builds to have a way to deal with it. This means the Broken spec is indirectly affecting the balance of how other specs interact with each other independently of the Broken spec. Certain specs that would be viable are not viable simply because they instantly lose to the T4, so they see less play, and thus other specs that those specs might counter see more play even in situations where the T4 spec is not present. So class play stats, win stats, skill usage, average trait choice, and every other possible base metric the balance team may use to try and understand wtf is going on ends up becoming distorted around the T4. Cata is absolutely causing this problem. TL;DR of current Meta: You either play Cata, play something that doesn't instantly die to Cata, or you lose games.

This is why it's critical to Emergency nerf a T4 rather than wait for the next large balance patch. Even though I main rev, I was glad when they emergency nerfed Vindicators endurance regen post 2 dodge buff, because I knew if they didn't the entire meta would start to shift around how busted it was. Unfortunately, this standard, for some inexplicable reason, is not applied to all classes. And so metas get ruined time and time again only to be followed up by balance patches that may correctly nerf the T4 spec but then incorrectly nerf/buff other classes.

 

 

No, this standard is applied to classes but only if they are pink. You are spot on though about how a spec that is dominant across all games (like necro and rev in the past) will distort figures while needing prompt addressing and data however this will also happen regardless.

 

What you often find with most metas is it gravitates to the highest reward for the lowest risk, this has always been the case. So you end up with many builds that are simply unviable because a combination of skills and traits on your class or another is too good to either not take or to overcome. Even in good metas where every class had a serviceable build for certain roles there are many losers.

We shouldn't really be looking at balance as a static concept and instead view it as a cyclical progression with randomness applied where classes and builds rise and fall over time. Nothing gets to the point where there's 2-4 in every game and if so it's shot down quickly. However as you say, it's not always applied or as I pointed out, it is only applied with prejudice.

[apharma.3741]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That is a better suggestion.

Personally, there should be a counter to everything for balanced gameplay. To me Auras should have a counter, and things like evades do as well. Its when something can over leverage gameplay elements with no counter that they become OP, so building counters into the game helps create a better build ecosystem.

Evades don't generally have counters, yes I know about guardian lines and tethers but those are so rare or usage is locked to far too few circumstances that I'd say it almost has no counter. That is fine though as everyone has access to evades in the same number....right?

Most auras are not that big a deal, the benefits they give are more through traits in gaining the aura, transmuting or physically having the buff than triggered from the aura effect with a few exceptions but some of them do have counters:
Shocking aura: stability and range >600
Magnetic aura: melee/non projectile
Frost aura: resistance but resistance is quite rare even now.
Chaos aura: Forum posting to nerf the class it's on, also very rare aura.
 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Evades don't generally have counters, yes I know about guardian lines and tethers but those are so rare or usage is locked to far too few circumstances that I'd say it almost has no counter. That is fine though as everyone has access to evades in the same number....right?

 

Evades themselves? No, there is a wide disparity on evade access.

Not counting UW weapons

Guardian: 2
Rev: 6
War: 5
Engi: 1 (not counting the mech's self evade)
Ranger: 10 (not counting pet only evades)
Thief: 9
Ele: 12
Mesmer: 4
Necro: 1

Keeping in mind that those tallies span elite specs and multiple weapons, so while warrior can bring at most 4 evades a ranger can bring 9 in one build. Neither would run those particular builds though.

 

 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

4 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I think criticisms about scepter being obnoxious especially blinds after the rework are grounded in reality, few reworks have ever been spot on.
The main problem with catalyst in my opinion is that it can spam auras and stab on aura is overtuned. Magnetic and shocking aura are incredibly strong for what they counter.

I don't deny Scepter being broken right now, but I find it really amusing overall. Currently scepter is simply on the same level as other powercreeped bs that Elementalist had to deal with since 2015, some of that bs is broken since 2012, yet somehow it is now problematic after Elementalist got the same toys like everyone else, hypocrisy at its finest.
The whole design&concept of Catalyst is a problem in itself. If you take few steps back and look at it objectively, you'll see that this spec is just Core 2.0, it is overtuned in a lot of areas just to make up for very poor design. Auras need some fixes here and there, they're problematic if they can be spammable, but they're weak if you can use them once per 30s+. 
Increase cooldown of Elemental Epitome to 20s and see how that class suddenly dies on left and right.
That spec is artificially broken(numbers), not because it's design is broken(mirage, firebrand, teef).
 

[Equinox.1463]

An elementalist should not be able to block projectiles for 20 seconds while not actively investing resources into that damage negation. This sentence prefaces the rest of my observations.

Be it good or bad they still have ridiculous damage negation for the output they get from being able to swap elements, grant auras (on dodge, on profession skill, on weapon skill, combo fields and combo dashes) while still doing damage that rivals a left-alone Deadeye in DPS - while being tanky enough to survive having 2 or more people on them. I've seen entire matches carried by an elementalist staying on a node and simply kiting. No matter how you put it, if while you're kiting 2 people are hitting you in the current meta, EVERY. SINGLE. PROFESSION. drops. but the Catalyst.

If I had to accuse one traitline to be overperforming right now, it would be the fire traitline for its passive condition damage increase, its passive generation of might or blind, it's nearly passive condition cleansing and its insane synergies with burning that's applied on each fire scepter autoattack and can stack up to five in intensity (berserker amulet - 1000 dmg per tick ; condition amulet - anywhere from 3k to 5k per dmg tick). Mind you scepter's autoattack in fire attunement are extremely short in animation and can stack 5 stacks in the first 3 seconds of entering combat. 

Air's scepter needs some retouching as currently it holds 3 instant casts that the elementalist can use while cc'd (may be 2 - someone fact check me here), 2 of them being instantaneous blinds and 1 of them being able to be a major dmg increase.

The whole idea behind catalyst needs to be reworked in my opinion, as giving them access to 4 more combo fields while not removing anything from their gameplay is absolutely disgusting. 
 

I'm going to finish this ranty paragraph by adding that currently, elementalist is the only class that all 4 specs are played in PvP at rather high levels in every match. In all actuality I haven't seen a  match in the past 100 I played that didn't have an elementalist. Apart from Spellbreaker, warrior's kind of a meme right now. Bladesworn? Lol. Specter? Wow if u have one you could win the lottery. A mesmer? Nearly a guaranteed loss unless that mesmer is actually a really good player. Most guardians are core or dragonhunters nowadays, with the very rare Willbender carrying their team. Firebrand? `Lol x 2. Let's not even address necromancer's state right now in PvP as even though your team can use one most of the time, Catalyst is just better in their situation. Ranger's making a comeback that I would also like addressed - I believe TB has been fair in their reviews of classes though so I'm gonna let that one be. Engis are kinda rare? So yes. Catalysts and Elemetanlist in general is at least Tier 2 in your system. Make core Ele tier 1 as it's more viable than any other core spec but thief.

[Sahne.6950]

14 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I don't deny Scepter being broken right now, but I find it really amusing overall. Currently scepter is simply on the same level as other powercreeped bs

I will just shortly mention a observation i have made.... under a YT video i saw someone saying, that ele is cursed.

Keep in mind, this refers to WvW and WvW only.

 

He was roaming with elementalist... i dont remember the exact number anymore, but it was something like 7 out of 10 people that he killed, whispered him, that ele is a noobtrashclass and needs a hefty nerf.

He was discouraged to play ele by this and then jumped on a celeharbinger and quickly managed to get some 1v3s while facerolling over the keyboard. It was overall alot stronger and he would score better results and more 1vX.  

But... He didnt receive a single whisper on Harbinger. 

So i jumped into WvW and i tried the same... i played some ele.... the chat was cooking.....  jumped on Harbinger which IS EVEN STRONGER FOR ROAMING......    silence...... nothing... no whispers.....  back to ele -> chat is cooking "noob" "noob" "nerf this kitten".....    

People are simply used to ele being garbage, and the second its not, people loose their minds.

 

Ele is uberstronk, no denying that,... but the hate in the community is disproportionally. It needs a nerf... but its at a point, where people ignore everything else and just go "nurf ele till it dead"... you can roflstomp them with celeharbinger and its fine for them... but ohh god forbid you kill them with a FreshairWeaver....a build that is more fragile and harder to play..... then your a noob, that is carried by ele.

You will notice it, by the confuseds that will be right ⬇️ here, altho i said nothing about "dont nerf ele" 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I will just shortly mention a observation i have made.... under a YT video i saw someone saying, that ele is cursed.

Keep in mind, this refers to WvW and WvW only.

 

He was roaming with elementalist... i dont remember the exact number anymore, but it was something like 7 out of 10 people that he killed, whispered him, that ele is a noobtrashclass and needs a hefty nerf.

He was discouraged to play ele by this and then jumped on a celeharbinger and quickly managed to get some 1v3s while facerolling over the keyboard. It was overall alot stronger and he would score better results and more 1vX.  

But... He didnt receive a single whisper on Harbinger. 

So i jumped into WvW and i tried the same... i played some ele.... the chat was cooking.....  jumped on Harbinger which IS EVEN STRONGER FOR ROAMING......    silence...... nothing... no whispers.....  back to ele -> chat is cooking "noob" "noob" "nerf this kitten".....    

People are simply used to ele being garbage, and the second its not, people loose their minds.

 

Ele is uberstronk, no denying that,... but the hate in the community is disproportionally. It needs a nerf... but its at a point, where people ignore everything else and just go "nurf ele till it dead"... you can roflstomp them with celeharbinger and its fine for them... but ohh god forbid you kill them with a FreshairWeaver....a build that is more fragile and harder to play..... then your a noob, that is carried by ele.

You will notice it, by the confuseds that will be right ⬇️ here, altho i said nothing about "dont nerf ele" 

 

I wouldn't say cele harbinger is better, I'd say both suck to fight for any remotely "fair" build but where cele harbinger is strong is against the other ridiculous roaming class, catalyst and catalyst can shut down a lot of other roamers completely that cele harbinger can't. So equally dumb for me.
For me as stated I think scepter is a little overtuned in blind spam and being able to simply auto  someone to death in fire with the amount of burns it stacks (you could do this pre rework btw) should be looked at. Dragon's tooth also probably needs to be reduced in damage but also have it hovering for less time too. Strip the 2 ammo from blinding flash then see how it goes for scepter.

Aura spam with stab on aura is a little over tuned where catalyst has stab all the time, I would look into changing that. I'd still want them to have stab when needed but not 1 stack almost constantly. Then see if aura spam is too much of an issue, reason I'd hold off on aura spam is it's deeply engrained in the trait design so would necessitate a full rework almost.

[Wyrdern.4092]

Some quick thoughts on sceptre changes ... not going to touch Catalyst here since I barely play it (not a fan of the design)

- Dragon's Tooth should probably just be returned to ground target and then find other ways to improve the skill if needed.

- Revert Blinding flash to 1 charge in competitive modes, making it AoE was enough of a buff alone

- Reduce the bonus damage to chilled foes on water trident to 20% and then increase the base damage in PvE only

- Make Stone Shards not feel terrible to use (idk if this is ever happening though)

[Shagie.7612]

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i dont remember the exact number anymore, but it was something like 7 out of 10 people that he killed, whispered him, that ele is a noobtrashclass and needs a hefty nerf.

that's just wvw lol, it's really not specific to any spec. i get it as berserker all the time when i go flip camps for tickets.

do you know how many times i've been accused of hacking because i jumped on a no-port spot and the (thief, it's always a thief) player couldn't figure it out?

big siege modes like that have always been full of bad players looking to dunk on even worse ones. it's true in every single game that has a mode like that. nobody wants an actual fight, they wanna run over some pve player.
hilarious game mode tbh