Henchmen - specifically Player character henchmen... think of the possibilities

[asket.5674]

26 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

please go to an spvp custom match with a friend and have them sick a melee pet on you and all you do is run in circles and see how many times the pet land a hit on you.

Should have specified, that i was talking pve only

[Gehenna.3625]

13 hours ago, Crimthan.9308 said:

 

I find it very useful to open up this topic, despite naysayers.  Very seldom are innovative ideas brought up without first a crowd of cynics crapping on them.  That's just how it goes.  

I'm more interested in the curiosity it takes to create and develop than the cynicism and lashback it takes to keep things status quo.

Here's the thing. It's your personal opinion that it's useful. And that's fair enough. However, people here tend to have a different view and if you want to have your personal opinion then you should allow others their opinion as well.

Edit: so clearly this is not the place to explore your vision.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Gehenna.3625

[Garrison Storm.3046]

With pets and the various summoning abilities and trinkets already working in various fashion, I don't imagine that the mechanics to implement could be that much different... however in addition to some of the other points, another logistical problem I see is that it would essentially mean that everything has the potential to die 5x faster, does it not?  This is already a problem in much of the pve content, so with respect to 'not impacting those who don't want to use it'.. I don't see how this is not the case... events will be trivialized resulting in players missing out on events, tagging and/or frustration from chasing them... it will affect everyone who wants to participate.  

 

I do like the idea in some of the instanced play, providing the opportunity to solo dungeons, fractals and personal stories... In that case, the henchmen replace the players, up to the maximum number of allowable participants per instance.  Presumably the rewards would reflect the number of actual players and not henchmen, so no unfair disadvantage there, and in those cases I don't see how implementing in those limited areas would impact anyone else...

 

[Garrison Storm.3046]

On 1/22/2023 at 3:40 AM, Ausar.9542 said:

somebody gave me the confusion face. So you need clarification? 

...the 'confused' emoji is used as 'no/disagree/don't like', in the absence of any viable alternatives. 

[Rogue.8235]

As much as I love the idea of my characters running around and fighting together, this wouldn't really work in GW2.  The combat systems are too complex for scripted AI to work well.  If you notice, AI companions have, at most, 4 skills, and cannot move while attacking or using skills.  That, alone, reduces any henchmen to uselessness.  The skill synergies are also complex that the AI will not be able to optimally use skills in combination.  Also, movement skills would be ineffective.  Think about your Thief henchman withdrawing off the a cliff all the time, because AI do not have a way to detect changes in terrain to adjust for movement.  

Pathing is one of the most difficult problems with simulated intelligence, and GW2 has complex terrain.  As I said, GW2 is far too complex for AI to handle, so this suggestion is a non-starter.

 

[Solvar.7953]

For it to work, it would need the logic like GW1 had where you could basically micromanage your heroes, telling them where to go, what skills to use/not use, etc.  Which is just not something the game currently supports.

I wouldn't be against use of heroes for some instanced content that is otherwise pretty dead (dungeons), but some dungeons have fairly complex mechanics that would be hard for the heroes to do.

 

[disco.9302]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:31 PM, Crimthan.9308 said:

Hi all.

 

I'd like to preface this post by saying I've been an avid Guild Wars player, since 2004 beta of the original, all the way up through now with GW2.

I realize not all aspects of GW1 can be in GW2 (the mixed character classes were the BEST EVER!!!); however, there is a function that

would be just absolutely amazing and would really expand the game, especially if it were in an official expansion.

As the subject says - please incorporate henchmen into the game - specifically like was done during the later expansions in GW1.

Example:  If I have 5 different characters, I can choose when playing any of them (per usual) and also hire henchmen to go with on some journeys.

Better yet - be able to copy 4 of my characters over as henchmen to be used with my main character!

 

To be fully authentic here - the idea randomly hit me while playing another game - Conqueror's Blade.  I began to ask myself

"What is it that GW2 could have to pull players over to it from games with people who like to not only play an RPG character, but also

lead units or a small band?"  Instantly was reminded of GW1.  Not only would it be appealing to those among the CB fan base, it would

also pull people over who like to play classics like Baldur's Gate, etc.

 

This would also cover a seriously lacking element in GW2.  Yes there are roving bands of players in WVW, but they are unrealistically small.

Imagine if instead you have 20 players each leading a band of 5 characters (one main and the other player character henchmen).  You suddenly

have a Company of 100.  If 50 players are playing who are leading 5 each, you have a Battalion.  You start getting warfare on a more immersive 

scale.  The thrill would be exponentially greater than what is already there.  You could:

1.  Have RPG dungeon dive/forest adventure etc created on a larger scale yet be able to play solo if you want with henchmen.

2.  Have large scale PVE warfare elements that are group driven where each player is a leader.

3.  Have WVW on a real warfare scale.

 

Yes, balancing would need to be there, and may require a bit of work, but with even basic marketing - the idea could really sell itself.

 

Seeing what ideas this could ignite... Thank you.

GW2 is an action based MMO. Having NPCs fighting for you detracts from this type of gameplay. I'd be pretty disappointed if anet spent resources developing some henchman AI.

Regardless of the reactions in this thread, I don't see this as the right direction for GW2.

 

[Ausar.9542]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:43 AM, Garrison Storm.3046 said:

...the 'confused' emoji is used as 'no/disagree/don't like', in the absence of any viable alternatives. 

thats the thing. I would like to dicuss the disagreement. Henchmen mechanics in story instances could be a fun thing so solo play to be able to have some control and build control of the NPC units in the story,

[Garrison Storm.3046]

13 minutes ago, Ausar.9542 said:

thats the thing. I would like to dicuss the disagreement. Henchmen mechanics in story instances could be a fun thing so solo play to be able to have some control and build control of the NPC units in the story,

While I agree with most, that widespread inclusion would be problematic on many levels, I do think there could be room for a selective and controlled implementation, as I had mentioned previously.

However ultimately Anet channels their efforts into encouraging group play (it is after all, an MMO that uses "Guild" in their title), whereas this idea would seem to accommodate soloists.

Anyway, it wasn't me who used that emoji... I was just offering an explanation as to its; use, as I had understood that you had interpreted a literal meaning.  Maybe that user will volunteer additional perspective, other than those that have been expressed already...

[robertthebard.8150]

So, I'm just going to base my comment on reading the title and remembering some of the things that have happened to me in Fallout 4 and Skyrim, the latter rather recently:  Being pushed off of cliffs or tall buildings; being blocked into a room because the comp isn't smart enough to move out of the way to let me out.  Having them run in front of me and take friendly fire, or, worse, killing me with friendly fire...

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

On 1/21/2023 at 3:33 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Anything which leads GW2 down the same road as GW1, aka decline of grouping and death of group play due to automization gets a strict:"no thank you" from me.

 

I loved GW1 and the heroes (henchmen not as much) there. I also played it mostly like a single player game.

 

Most players I got to know over the years in this franchise who did enjoy the social aspects of GW1 would pin point 1 moment in time for when the social (and/or multiplayer) aspect of that game died: the additon of heroes and the eventual following abandoning of the game after.

 

Not something I would want for GW2 yet.

Here, here!  I remember that moment well. 

[Crimthan.9308]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:31 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

This is not [another game].

Players are substituted for npcs, they have to be or you're literally saying every players needs to play with their own group of legal bots to fill the available spaces. Unless those npcs spaces are the same spaces potential players can fill. At that point... npcs take up player space which means you are literally replacing players with npcs.

Want to play with a squad without replacing players with npcs? Play in player squads.

Nothing you said somehow explained anything I wasn't already expecting it to be, so.. no, wouldn't say it's innovating, it's just an attempt to replace players with party of legal bots. No, thanks.

So play pvp/wvw and be an active part of a group consisting of actual players.

 

I'm using other games as examples because I can see that people aren't getting or understanding the concept.  You basically just copped out of any meaningful input by saying that "this isn't another game."  That's a pretty myopic outlook.

 

I can see that your whole premise has one interest - and that's for you to consider yourself "right" about your initial opinion. 

 

If you were interested at all rather than cynical, you'd see that the goal isn't to replace players - it's to lead troops like you can in conquerors blade or Samurai warriors - only it's not in those games, it's in the world of Guild Wars.  A game that initially was all about warring factions.  This allows the player to both fight and lead a small unit and give orders to have the henchmen fight.  In this concept - the players become the officers, each leading a small band - of copies of characters they've created.

 

It would be more intense version of WVW.  Your preconceived notion based on the subject line is in the way of you actually envisioning what I'm saying.  I can see that is also occuring for a few others in their responses.  You keep saying item XYZ when I'm talking about item ABC.

[Crimthan.9308]

10 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Here, here!  I remember that moment well. 

GW1 lost momentum due to the limited movement in the game engine - it couldn't compete with other game designs using updated physics.  

 

Those concepts being blamed for the fall of GW1 are actually some of the items that kept the player base as a whole interested.  They just couldn't keep people dedicated when the engine had so many limitations in the physics.  Something GW2 doesn't have much of an issue with.

[Crimthan.9308]

20 hours ago, disco.9302 said:

GW2 is an action based MMO. Having NPCs fighting for you detracts from this type of gameplay. I'd be pretty disappointed if anet spent resources developing some henchman AI.

Regardless of the reactions in this thread, I don't see this as the right direction for GW2.

 

 

You fight and your npcs fight.  Neither detract from the other as evidenced in Conqueror's Blade or Samurai Warriors.  You're fighting, leading and shouting orders. 

Only this is GW2 where there are even more RPG, char creation/development elements.

It would make Guild Wars even more a warring faction game.

[Crimthan.9308]

On 1/22/2023 at 4:56 AM, Gehenna.3625 said:

Here's the thing. It's your personal opinion that it's useful. And that's fair enough. However, people here tend to have a different view and if you want to have your personal opinion then you should allow others their opinion as well.

Edit: so clearly this is not the place to explore your vision.

 

That's your opinion.

[Crimthan.9308]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:40 AM, Garrison Storm.3046 said:

With pets and the various summoning abilities and trinkets already working in various fashion, I don't imagine that the mechanics to implement could be that much different... however in addition to some of the other points, another logistical problem I see is that it would essentially mean that everything has the potential to die 5x faster, does it not?  This is already a problem in much of the pve content, so with respect to 'not impacting those who don't want to use it'.. I don't see how this is not the case... events will be trivialized resulting in players missing out on events, tagging and/or frustration from chasing them... it will affect everyone who wants to participate.  

 

I do like the idea in some of the instanced play, providing the opportunity to solo dungeons, fractals and personal stories... In that case, the henchmen replace the players, up to the maximum number of allowable participants per instance.  Presumably the rewards would reflect the number of actual players and not henchmen, so no unfair disadvantage there, and in those cases I don't see how implementing in those limited areas would impact anyone else...

 

 

Thank you for your objectivity.  Heck it doesn't even bother me that we don't see eye to eye on most of it.  That's OK, because I can see that you gave the ideas a lot of thought from different perspectives - extremely appreciate that, and your input.

[Crimthan.9308]

On 1/23/2023 at 3:04 PM, Rogue.8235 said:

As much as I love the idea of my characters running around and fighting together, this wouldn't really work in GW2.  The combat systems are too complex for scripted AI to work well.  If you notice, AI companions have, at most, 4 skills, and cannot move while attacking or using skills.  That, alone, reduces any henchmen to uselessness.  The skill synergies are also complex that the AI will not be able to optimally use skills in combination.  Also, movement skills would be ineffective.  Think about your Thief henchman withdrawing off the a cliff all the time, because AI do not have a way to detect changes in terrain to adjust for movement.  

Pathing is one of the most difficult problems with simulated intelligence, and GW2 has complex terrain.  As I said, GW2 is far too complex for AI to handle, so this suggestion is a non-starter.

 

 

I've seen it work in other engines, like the CHAOS engine (one that the designer even conjured up themselves).  I just can't believe for a moment that the GW2 development/design teams couldn't handle this - especially if zones were made with this specifically in mind.

[Crimthan.9308]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:31 PM, Solvar.7953 said:

For it to work, it would need the logic like GW1 had where you could basically micromanage your heroes, telling them where to go, what skills to use/not use, etc.  Which is just not something the game currently supports.

I wouldn't be against use of heroes for some instanced content that is otherwise pretty dead (dungeons), but some dungeons have fairly complex mechanics that would be hard for the heroes to do.

 

 

They've utilized the logic toward that end a bit more than they have before - take the Untamed Ranger.  Before we could make a pet go passive or attack or use one F2 ability.  However now we can actually use 2 more of pet's various abilities  plus the previously mentioned.

That's what - 5 buttons to use?  

They could implement an overarching 2 or 3 commands to your squad - attack, cover me (return) and defend.

And within each character we could have 3 or 4 skills we can select to go in those slots and can order them to use those skills in battle.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

24 minutes ago, Crimthan.9308 said:

GW1 lost momentum due to the limited movement in the game engine - it couldn't compete with other game designs using updated physics.  

 

Those concepts being blamed for the fall of GW1 are actually some of the items that kept the player base as a whole interested.  They just couldn't keep people dedicated when the engine had so many limitations in the physics.  Something GW2 doesn't have much of an issue with.

Absolutely nothing to do with how heroes caused real player  group play to decline.  We just stopped asking others to help/play with us when we could just use heroes.  It was a real shame. 

[mungozen.2379]

4 minutes ago, Crimthan.9308 said:

It would make Guild Wars even more a warring faction game.

The issue I see in this thread is you want to turn GW2 into a different game.  You mention having new content in parallel to the existing game but, the core concept of what you want is vastly different than what GW2 has been about for the past 10 years.  While we have had multiple different types of instanced content created since Launch (Fractals, Raids, Strikes, DRM, Squad Content like Marionete/Dragonstorm) they all are centered around group play.

One could argue that Story content is technically solo play, and as such suggest that Solo + some form of NPCs would be viable in a story context.  To some degree we have already had the most basic version of that with story characters sometimes being engaged in combat.  Yet adding the parts to create a Henchmen setup would require a lot of dedicated effort for a very singular environment.

As has been said multiple times, GW2 is based around Massively Multiplayer and providing different ways to enjoy playing with other people.  What would need to be added that doesn't already exist in game?

• Henchmen interface - You would need an interface/window (likely several) for Gear, Build, Skins and Dyes alongside a general management interface to select which Henchmen you are using.
• Henchmen AI - How intelligent do these henchmen need to be?  Are they automatons like Necro pets?  Are they commanded like Ranger pets?  Do they have smart decision making or are they totally controlled by the player?  You could 'borrow' from other pet classes but likely you would want to have new AI coded.
• Henchmen Hotkeys/Skillbar/UI elements - Creating the combat UI elements, the skill bars etc and integrating them into the existing screen and keyboard layouts.

Then you get into where is this stuff applied:

• New zones or instances built specifically for henchmen gameplay
• Retrofitting old zones or instances to work with henchmen gameplay

Now, consider this for a moment.  There are hundreds possibly thousands of hours of game development in what I listed above.  All that development time, cost and energy, for solo player content.

Yet this is a Massively Multiplayer game, so how much of the player base wants Solo content, and how many want Solo content with Henchmen?  Does it make sense to make dedicated maps and instances for Solo players (likely in the minority in an MMO) when the same development time and resources could be used for Multiplayer content?

I would wager that the majority of players would be confused and or disappointed if new dedicated content was produced for niche gameplay.  Why make a different WvW when the existing WvW has been crying for new maps and updates for years?  Why add new Solo Fractals when players have been waiting for new Fractals, for years?

So, while you might think you are suggesting a small addition to a great game, it really is asking the developers to change the focus of their attention away from group content.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

In addition, the Devs pulled back the abilities of the NPCs in Story content years ago, as they did not want NPCs to aid players very much.  I'm not sure the Devs would embrace this idea.

[Crimthan.9308]

8 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

The issue I see in this thread is you want to turn GW2 into a different game.  You mention having new content in parallel to the existing game but, the core concept of what you want is vastly different than what GW2 has been about for the past 10 years.  While we have had multiple different types of instanced content created since Launch (Fractals, Raids, Strikes, DRM, Squad Content like Marionete/Dragonstorm) they all are centered around group play.

One could argue that Story content is technically solo play, and as such suggest that Solo + some form of NPCs would be viable in a story context.  To some degree we have already had the most basic version of that with story characters sometimes being engaged in combat.  Yet adding the parts to create a Henchmen setup would require a lot of dedicated effort for a very singular environment.

As has been said multiple times, GW2 is based around Massively Multiplayer and providing different ways to enjoy playing with other people.  What would need to be added that doesn't already exist in game?

• Henchmen interface - You would need an interface/window (likely several) for Gear, Build, Skins and Dyes alongside a general management interface to select which Henchmen you are using.
• Henchmen AI - How intelligent do these henchmen need to be?  Are they automatons like Necro pets?  Are they commanded like Ranger pets?  Do they have smart decision making or are they totally controlled by the player?  You could 'borrow' from other pet classes but likely you would want to have new AI coded.
• Henchmen Hotkeys/Skillbar/UI elements - Creating the combat UI elements, the skill bars etc and integrating them into the existing screen and keyboard layouts.

Then you get into where is this stuff applied:

• New zones or instances built specifically for henchmen gameplay
• Retrofitting old zones or instances to work with henchmen gameplay

Now, consider this for a moment.  There are hundreds possibly thousands of hours of game development in what I listed above.  All that development time, cost and energy, for solo player content.

Yet this is a Massively Multiplayer game, so how much of the player base wants Solo content, and how many want Solo content with Henchmen?  Does it make sense to make dedicated maps and instances for Solo players (likely in the minority in an MMO) when the same development time and resources could be used for Multiplayer content?

I would wager that the majority of players would be confused and or disappointed if new dedicated content was produced for niche gameplay.  Why make a different WvW when the existing WvW has been crying for new maps and updates for years?  Why add new Solo Fractals when players have been waiting for new Fractals, for years?

So, while you might think you are suggesting a small addition to a great game, it really is asking the developers to change the focus of their attention away from group content.

 

It won't be a different game.  It would be what it is now, only expanded to include more warfare, warring factions.

The engine is partially already there - the Ranger Untamed interface when commanding your pet.  It would just need to be expanded upon.  Please see my previous post reply.

 

You're approaching mostly from PVE.  The main area I'm addressing is leading henchmen in squads into battle for larger unit warfare (I used conqueror blade or Samurai Warriors only as a reference to get this idea across.  Please check those out as they are a good bridge to see what I'm getting at).

Edited January 25, 2023 by Crimthan.9308

[Crimthan.9308]

11 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

In addition, the Devs pulled back the abilities of the NPCs in Story content years ago, as they did not want NPCs to aid players very much.  I'm not sure the Devs would embrace this idea.

 

This isn't about finding a way to cheat past current content, so those concerns end up being mute.

It's about having content where it would be utilized- more in warring factions and perhaps in some PVE areas - all in new zones (perhaps some old ones).

 

So this is just a theory, I could be incorrect:  could be that the Devs are posting some replies in the guise of player accounts to this already.  

Edited January 25, 2023 by Crimthan.9308

[Crimthan.9308]

15 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Absolutely nothing to do with how heroes caused real player  group play to decline.  We just stopped asking others to help/play with us when we could just use heroes.  It was a real shame. 

 

I like both options.  You get to choose. 

[Crimthan.9308]

On 1/21/2023 at 6:50 PM, Randulf.7614 said:

GW1 and GW2 are not similar. GW1 was designed to be a solo game as well. It’s a solo game, but the way heroes and henchies were built in allowed for multiplayer too.

GW2 was specifically designed not to go down that route. Even from concept, it’s designed to be players cooperating around an open world. Pathing in instances is often broken for NPCs, so relying on henchman would mean extremely large, resource intensive makeovers.

The overriding factor though is that there is no reason to have them. The game is not difficult enough in story mode and open world has actual players working together, which is vastly superior than henchmen. GW1 did not have players outside of outposts. It’s a massive difference.

Gliders and mounts (the latter was always intended to be added to the game) have a specific design function to enable wider maps, fast travel and unique vertical design alongside horizontal progression. All of which work with the core pillar of design that has players working together and not AI.

Henchman would need to justify extensive resources and UI rebuilding by:

- fill a gap the game needs. Currently no gap exists 

- bring something new and unique whilst respecting the core design philosophy of player-player interaction

- bring in revenue (prob easy to monetise)

- cause no performance issues in open world and block no players from entering a server. Certain AI like minis are already hidden for example in heavy population maps

- be available in a significant portion of the game world (not really possible in open world)

- be able to utilise in game mechanics 

- justify itself over other content which would need to be cut in favour of it. This is a massive undertaking. Huge. Let’s say we had a choice between say henchman, housing and ships. All popular features. All major, arguably non-essential features, which tick various points highlighted above. I’d be very unhappy to see henchman over those or anything else since they bring nothing whatsoever to game.

I’m not trolling your idea nor telling you to post in an old thread, but there is nothing new presented here. If you can genuinely be the first to suggest a reason which fits the game, then there is discussion to be had. But so far, none exists that fits the ideas and principles of GW2. And to be honest, I don’t want to see GW2 wander any further from those ideas and principles like it has over the past couple of years.

I want more players together in harmony in open world, in instances and then beating the holy skritt out of each other in pvp/wvw. Henchman discourage that.

 

You skipped over the entire mention of leading them as a squad in warring factions scenarios.  Guild Wars concepts were front line about warring factions.  This expands on that.  It does a fill a void I noticed was missing in just the first couple years of game release and hasn't been addressed.

 

I've mentioned it several times- to get some idea what I'm addressing (it wouldn't be those games just seeing them would make it more apparent what I'm saying) check out conquerors blade or Samurai Warriors.  

 

Implementation - expands on the direction devs were going with commands for the Untamed class.  I've mentioned this in last few posts just before my response here.

 

Henchmen will NOT discourage players beating on eachother. It expands on that.  Players are now officers leading squads (small units) in battle and the player fights as well.