Unofficial 2/3/2023 Balance Patch Preview For Thief Discussion!

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

1 hour ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

regarding the specter wells change...yeah a step in the right direction however it still will not be used as UTILITY due to the alacrity requiring wells to be spammed off cooldown in order to access it. Alactriy should be buffed BASE by 2s or the recharge rate lowered for the wells by 4s or even both. The power damage well is laughable and scales like crap with power based builds. no one takes it. still nothing adjusted to the other crap traits in specter which are very rarely take and the fact that the HP cut % effecting shroud does hell all in wvw/spvp. it needs to be buffed back.

Scepter Skill 2 is a attack. It will now grant might aoe around the specter. Also the ally skill.

The healing well, is passive heals for a specific amount of seconds. This is great if you cast it at specific times, even if you are doing it off cooldown. The condi cleanse well, will go great with specter alac builds if you swap it out for well of sorrows. It will be a DPS loss, however if you have passive (cleanse over time) condi cleanse then it might be equivalent to other classes where you swap out a skill for a DPS loss as well.

I 100% agree with the power well, but I think this patch was zeroing in on other issues. I hope it will be addressed in a future patch. Power specter is kind of a joke right now even if someone made a PvE rotation for it.

1 hour ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Signet of the Hunt: The active component of this skill now grants superspeed in addition to unblockable stacks. Reduced cooldown from 40 seconds to 20 seconds.

This is also going to make rapidfire rangers screw everyone over in competative mode that use stealth

This is one reason I said this.

3 hours ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

In all fairness I feel like if the only counter play for 'revealed'  is being removed from the game, then 'revealed' should be balanced as a 'whole'.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

what id love to see is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Punishing_Strikes to stay up for about 3 or so seconds if we miss a melee attack to allow some defence on projectiles, but if it hits with itself as a melee attack (not blocks) then it goes back to a normal chain auto attack chain. This aids on those using counted blocks like elementalists that block the next 3 attacks. This or allow us to use the autoattack chain without hitting something where it sort of acts like mesmer sceptor that doesnt need to have hit anything in their autoattack to go through their AA chain.

I would like to see improvements here too, but it's kind of off topic.

PS. on a unrelated note: I added italics to different paragraphs to emphasize things in my last post.

Edited February 5, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Kiza.1823]

On 2/4/2023 at 7:28 AM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Keep it civil! NERFS will be UNDERLINED

Thief

Rifle saw some improvements in the last balance update, but it's still outshined by dagger in most power deadeye builds. We do want rifle to be a viable pick, and we're bumping up the damage a bit more. We've also made a usability improvement to Deadeye's Mark, which will no longer be lost when entering the downed state.

Specter is another support build in PvE that struggles with might generation compared to some other options. We've shifted the self-only might from Shadow Sap into area-of-effect might and bumped up the might on Well of Bounty with the goal of making alacrity-focused specter builds more competitive.

Core

• Signets of Power: This trait has been reworked. It now causes signet skills to grant initiative when activated.
• Signet of Malice: Reduced cooldown from 15 seconds to 12 seconds.
• Signet of Shadows: Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.
• Infiltrator's Signet: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvE, and from 35 seconds to 28 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Trickster: This trait no longer reduces the cooldown of trick skills. Increased the number of conditions removed from 1 to 2.
• Caltrops: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds.
• Haste: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvE, and from 45 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Roll for Initiative: Reduced cooldown from 35 seconds to 28 seconds in PvE, and from 50 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced initiative gain from 6 to 4 in PvP and WvW.
• Skelk Venom: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds.
• Keen Observer: Reduced health threshold requirement from 90% to 75% in PvE only.

Daredevil

• Steal is no longer replaced by Swipe when the daredevil specialization is equipped.
• Impairing Daggers: Reduced cooldown from 25 seconds to 18 seconds.
• Impact Strike: Reduced cooldown from 40 seconds to 30 seconds.

Deadeye

• Deadeye's Mark is no longer removed when the deadeye goes into the downed state.
• Brutal Aim: Increased power coefficient from 0.6 to 0.75 in PvE only.
• Deadly Aim: Increased power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.1 in PvE only.
• Skirmisher's Shot: Increased power coefficient from 0.8 to 1.0 in PvE only.
• Spotter's Shot: Increased power coefficient from 1.15 to 1.3 in PvE only.
• Double Tap: Increased power coefficient per hit from 0.65 to 0.8 in PvE only.
• Three Round Burst: Increased power coefficient per hit from 0.75 to 0.85 in PvE only.
• Shadow Meld: This skill no longer removes revealed in PvP and WvW.
  .................................................HUGE.......................................................................................................

Specter

• Shadow Sap: The enemy-targeted version of this skill now grants might in an area around the specter. The ally-targeted version of this skill now grants protection.
• Well of Silence: This skill has been reworked. It now dazes enemies on the initial strike, then removes conditions from allies in the area on each pulse. Gain shadow force for each condition removed. Reduced cooldown from 50 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Well of Bounty: Increased might stacks from 6 to 8 in PvE only.

 

[EcK] has asked me to comment my opinion from a PvP and WvW exclusive perspective. So hello all o/

I'll format this per Specialization branch/class within Thief so it isn't as "wordy".

 

Before we get the ball rolling, I've seen numerous changes to Thief over the years (I'm from the Beta days) and now just accept that Anet really do struggle with putting Thief in a balanced spot. However, they get there eventually every now and then so I feel we should view these changes in a way to figure out the direction they are going rather than "they hate this so nerf it" mentality some of us may have. 

 

Quote

Core

• Signets of Power: This trait has been reworked. It now causes signet skills to grant initiative when activated.
• Signet of Malice: Reduced cooldown from 15 seconds to 12 seconds.
• Signet of Shadows: Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.
• Infiltrator's Signet: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvE, and from 35 seconds to 28 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Trickster: This trait no longer reduces the cooldown of trick skills. Increased the number of conditions removed from 1 to 2.
• Caltrops: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds.
• Haste: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvE, and from 45 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Roll for Initiative: Reduced cooldown from 35 seconds to 28 seconds in PvE, and from 50 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced initiative gain from 6 to 4 in PvP and WvW.
• Skelk Venom: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds.
• Keen Observer: Reduced health threshold requirement from 90% to 75% in PvE only.

 

Signet of Power changes are a welcome change, It'll mix it up considering nobody in PvP considers getting anything apart from a spicy Infiltrators Signet or Signet of Agility (the G.O.A.T signet). 

 

While Trickster no longer reduces cooldowns of trick skills, it would only ever benefit people who took Roll for Initiative and Dagger Storm because they run Shadowstep, Blinding Powder or Signet of Agility, SR in the other slots on DD or similar builds so I actually consider this a buff and worth considering over Hide in Shadows at this point in time. TL:DR because it won't really affect majority of us in PvP due to the CD buffs to the abilities mentioned above. 

Edit: Also Dagger storm used to be a crummy 90s CD Dagger storm without all these extra movement speed stuff it has now so this is where I am coming from regarding Trickster nerfs being not that bad for OG Dagger Storm users.

 

Caltrops is nice, maybe we would pick it over other traits for condition damage builds (probably not but we will see).

 

 I view Roll for Initiative as a slight buff actually, because Roll for Initiative breaks stun and Stuns are annoying in the current state of PvP for Thief. If you do the math it's 12 points of Initiative gain in 100 seconds, but now it's 12 points of Initiative every 105 seconds but 3 stun breaks in return (not bad in my opinion actually).

 

Skelk Venom and Keen Observer nobody really picks for PvP and Observer is not relevant here. However a buff is a buff for Venom so cool.

 

Quote

Daredevil

• Steal is no longer replaced by Swipe when the daredevil specialization is equipped.
• Impairing Daggers: Reduced cooldown from 25 seconds to 18 seconds.
• Impact Strike: Reduced cooldown from 40 seconds to 30 seconds.

 

I remember a few years back everyone being super emotional with Steal being switched out, Swipe took a while to be in a good spot with future patches after they nerfed the range. I feel Steal is a welcome change because the extra mobility is nice and for us in maps like Forest, Shadowstepping to insane places from insane distances makes us far quicker considering Shortbow 5 is still garbage from what it used to be (I don't like how it uses like 2 points more initiative).

 

Impairing Daggers with a lower cooldown is awesome, but nobody picks it because there are better things out there. This might change now for DD builds (doubt, but buffs are good).

 

Impact Strike is pretty huge, lower CD means you can stomp every 30 seconds instead of 40 seconds. When HoT first came out this was the new Meta Elite because you'd run around the map with Finishing Blow and it just had insane kill potential. So me likey this direction.

 

Quote

Deadeye

• Deadeye's Mark is no longer removed when the deadeye goes into the downed state.
• Brutal Aim: Increased power coefficient from 0.6 to 0.75 in PvE only.
• Deadly Aim: Increased power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.1 in PvE only.
• Skirmisher's Shot: Increased power coefficient from 0.8 to 1.0 in PvE only.
• Spotter's Shot: Increased power coefficient from 1.15 to 1.3 in PvE only.
• Double Tap: Increased power coefficient per hit from 0.65 to 0.8 in PvE only.
• Three Round Burst: Increased power coefficient per hit from 0.75 to 0.85 in PvE only.
• Shadow Meld: This skill no longer removes revealed in PvP and WvW.
  .................................................HUGE.......................................................................................................

 

Nothing here really matters for me except Shadow Meld. This SUCKS, BUT similar to Silence in League of Legends it really doesn't give any counterplay at ALL. If I look at all these planned changes it looks like Anet wants us to be more mobile and proficient in our abilities instead of sitting in Stealth 24/7 on DE. So, while this change isn't welcome by all I feel we should wait out their direction because they will most likely buff other areas to make up for Shadow Meld being a useless elite now for a majority of Thieves. Instead of pushing about how we just don't like this, we should be pushing for Anet to give us something back of equal value.

 

Quote

Specter

• Shadow Sap: The enemy-targeted version of this skill now grants might in an area around the specter. The ally-targeted version of this skill now grants protection.
• Well of Silence: This skill has been reworked. It now dazes enemies on the initial strike, then removes conditions from allies in the area on each pulse. Gain shadow force for each condition removed. Reduced cooldown from 50 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Well of Bounty: Increased might stacks from 6 to 8 in PvE only.

 

Big chungus nice, no problems from me.

Edit: These are first impressions at a glance. So I'm probably missing something or failing to comment that withdraw is unaffected by trickster changes etc. 🤷

Edited February 5, 2023 by Kiza.1823

[SamuelW.2685]

Good-ish patch, it's not super substantial but the nerfs aren't overbearing

My biggest gripe is Swipe going away, it being unblockable was a nice little bonus, it didn't matter if was 900 range cause DD is a close range class, I doubt it will effect PvE much but it might be a bit of a issue in PvP, Deadeye is the spec that gets all the complaints in PvP too so not sure why DD got Swipe removed. Other then that DD got good changes, the lower CD's are nice.

Deadeye changes are good, more damage is always a nice thing, kinda sucks rifle didn't get piercing though, would rather get piercing over more damage tbh. Can't comment on Shadow Meld in PvP but I suspect Deadeye will still be viable, rifle 4 is nuts for mobility and that's on top of always having Shadowstep.

Specter is just ok, Septer 2 is still never gonna be used 90% for might of all things, you can ge and share a good amount of might thanks to Siphons low CD mixed with Thrill of The Crime, well changes are meh too. 

Shame Specter still has reduced initiative and rifle didn't get piercing, would also be nice if Anet addressed Thief's lack of a good WvW zerg build, maybe by adding back Ricochet or giving rifle piercing, could even be something else 1200 range.

Edited February 5, 2023 by SamuelW.2685

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

6 hours ago, Kiza.1823 said:

 

[EcK] has asked me to comment my opinion from a PvP and WvW exclusive perspective. So hello all o/

I'll format this per Specialization branch/class within Thief so it isn't as "wordy".

 

Before we get the ball rolling, I've seen numerous changes to Thief over the years (I'm from the Beta days) and now just accept that Anet really do struggle with putting Thief in a balanced spot. However, they get there eventually every now and then so I feel we should view these changes in a way to figure out the direction they are going rather than "they hate this so nerf it" mentality some of us may have. 

 

 

Signet of Power changes are a welcome change, It'll mix it up considering nobody in PvP considers getting anything apart from a spicy Infiltrators Signet or Signet of Agility (the G.O.A.T signet). 

 

While Trickster no longer reduces cooldowns of trick skills, it would only ever benefit people who took Roll for Initiative and Dagger Storm because they run Shadowstep, Blinding Powder or Signet of Agility, SR in the other slots on DD or similar builds so I actually consider this a buff and worth considering over Hide in Shadows at this point in time. TL:DR because it won't really affect majority of us in PvP due to the CD buffs to the abilities mentioned above. 

Edit: Also Dagger storm used to be a crummy 90s CD Dagger storm without all these extra movement speed stuff it has now so this is where I am coming from regarding Trickster nerfs being not that bad for OG Dagger Storm users.

 

Caltrops is nice, maybe we would pick it over other traits for condition damage builds (probably not but we will see).

 

 I view Roll for Initiative as a slight buff actually, because Roll for Initiative breaks stun and Stuns are annoying in the current state of PvP for Thief. If you do the math it's 12 points of Initiative gain in 100 seconds, but now it's 12 points of Initiative every 105 seconds but 3 stun breaks in return (not bad in my opinion actually).

 

Skelk Venom and Keen Observer nobody really picks for PvP and Observer is not relevant here. However a buff is a buff for Venom so cool.

 

 

I remember a few years back everyone being super emotional with Steal being switched out, Swipe took a while to be in a good spot with future patches after they nerfed the range. I feel Steal is a welcome change because the extra mobility is nice and for us in maps like Forest, Shadowstepping to insane places from insane distances makes us far quicker considering Shortbow 5 is still garbage from what it used to be (I don't like how it uses like 2 points more initiative).

 

Impairing Daggers with a lower cooldown is awesome, but nobody picks it because there are better things out there. This might change now for DD builds (doubt, but buffs are good).

 

Impact Strike is pretty huge, lower CD means you can stomp every 30 seconds instead of 40 seconds. When HoT first came out this was the new Meta Elite because you'd run around the map with Finishing Blow and it just had insane kill potential. So me likey this direction.

 

 

Nothing here really matters for me except Shadow Meld. This SUCKS, BUT similar to Silence in League of Legends it really doesn't give any counterplay at ALL. If I look at all these planned changes it looks like Anet wants us to be more mobile and proficient in our abilities instead of sitting in Stealth 24/7 on DE. So, while this change isn't welcome by all I feel we should wait out their direction because they will most likely buff other areas to make up for Shadow Meld being a useless elite now for a majority of Thieves. Instead of pushing about how we just don't like this, we should be pushing for Anet to give us something back of equal value.

 

 

Big chungus nice, no problems from me.

Edit: These are first impressions at a glance. So I'm probably missing something or failing to comment that withdraw is unaffected by trickster changes etc. 🤷

Wow it's your first post lol. I know we talk outside via EcK. Anyhow it's nice to see your perspective as a long time player who is competitive play focused. I played for a year at the start of the game, then came back in 2019 and focused mainly on PvE. I originally played PvP / WvW to get reward tracks done (for mystic clovers). I came to enjoy it quite a bit.

6 hours ago, Kiza.1823 said:

Nothing here really matters for me except Shadow Meld. This SUCKS, BUT similar to Silence in League of Legends it really doesn't give any counterplay at ALL. If I look at all these planned changes it looks like Anet wants us to be more mobile and proficient in our abilities instead of sitting in Stealth 24/7 on DE. So, while this change isn't welcome by all I feel we should wait out their direction because they will most likely buff other areas to make up for Shadow Meld being a useless elite now for a majority of Thieves. Instead of pushing about how we just don't like this, we should be pushing for Anet to give us something back of equal value.

I 100% agree with your statement about giving back something of equal value. It's also why I said this.
 

10 hours ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

In all fairness I feel like if the only counter play for 'revealed'  is being removed from the game, then 'revealed' should be balanced as a 'whole'.

Personally, I normally don't stealth for long and mainly use it as a DE very aggressive damage output vs going stealth for longer periods of time unless going against another stealth user (I count attacks and cast my stolen attack right away since DE loads things in order if my attacks aren't blocked). My playstyle is very in your face type of thing. I do use stealth to get away or escape if I get in a sticky situation still though. There is one reason I mentioned sic em builds with some ranger builds. When I was fighting Maguma for two weeks there were some pretty skilled rangers (with stealth trap builds). The only reason I could go toe to toe was clearing revealed.

PS. This is a different topic, but honestly I really hate the pub stomping pew pew longbow ranger meme builds. It annoyed me when I was a beginner, but after gaining experience I have made it my goal to hunt down and demolish those who use it because it's plain annoying. Now it's getting buffed? That makes the Shadow Meld change even worse.

EDIT: If I could maybe my statement I made should be reworded to this. I really, really want to zero in on this as my feedback.

In all fairness if the only counter for 'revealed'  is being removed from the competitive game modes, then 'revealed' should be balanced as a 'whole'.

Edited February 5, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Skullsox.9162]

Great changes  but shadow meld cant be considered  an elite skill if it doesn't remove reveal now, it's just blinding powder with none of the benefits of blinding power.  Add protection , aegis ,block , projectile reflect ....something  to make it "elite " me personally  I'd love a reflection or block kinda like arcane shield.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Skullsox.9162

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

This was a patch previously made in september 9th 2014 was made EXCLUSIVELY during a time when we (thieves) had higher stealth duration for DEALING with high stealth uptime builds...THIS needs a revert to 4s and not 6s now considering we no longer have increased stealth traits and that there are unblockable Signet of The Hunt rangers combining Sic Em with rapid fire PUB.

 

September 09, 2014

Increased the duration of revealed from 4 seconds to 6 seconds.

[MorningGlow.5376]

On 2/4/2023 at 4:50 PM, Acemos.2856 said:

Keep in mind that using death's judgment reveals you at the start even before the bullet leaves your rifle and hits your opponent. Shadow meld helped with death's judgement cancelling if your opponent dodged or got aegis or distort or became invincible or the myriad of ways one can block. Without the ability to remove reveal off yourself from your own death's judgment, you cannot perform another stealth attack for 3 seconds, regardless of whether it hit or not. Rather than just removing reveal from opponents, Shadow Meld had self synergy because you would use it to reset your stealth attack on rifle so you wouldn't be caught in your own self reveal that reveals you even if you didn't land your stealth attack; A "stealth attack" that has an extremely telegraphed audio and visual cue. I'd be okay with the huge telegraph if the stealth attack didn't reveal you, kept you in "stealth" and instead showed the general location of you.

Now would you believe, i actually didn't keep that in mind^^'. And you're making a very good point. While i still believe that having the ability to counter skills that were devised to counter stealth is not very healthy (not least because it complicates balancing stealth as a whole), i do agree that a follow-up change to death judgment is needed, or it will ultimately result in a nerf for rifle.

Therefore i think your proposal in the last sentence is quite sensible. Have you considered putting this in the main feedback thread? I think i will, and you know how it is: the more, the merrier :)

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Look, I know im gonna get HaHa / confused reactions from this, but face it. We are probably the most underplayed and misunderstood class in the game. Hated by all loved by few but dangerous in the right hands. If we dont band together as thief lovers I don't believe arenanet will ever understand how the class works or what wed like to play it as. Some love stealth, some hate it but in the end we all love thief here right?

Consider joining the EcK discord to discuss these changes, post ideas and massively voice our concerns together...if we do this right we can even sway the way they look at thieves. When DoubleTap comes back, we never know....he may be able to get us all in touch with those reponsible for the balance team on thief.

It's sad to see people only know thief for pvp / wvw roaming and basic pve...weve come to a point where most thieves have become complacent with the roles that the gw2 community has placed on them...but i swear EcK has many things in store and in preparation for endgame PvE as well as WvW....Yes im trying to amass an army of thieves exclusively but it has a purpose outside of just gameplay but also balance. Lets form a picket line!

hit me up! most of EcK posts here on the forums very often.

[cyberzombie.7348]

45 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Look, I know im gonna get HaHa / confused reactions from this, but face it. We are probably the most underplayed and misunderstood class in the game. Hated by all loved by few but dangerous in the right hands. If we dont band together as thief lovers I don't believe arenanet will ever understand how the class works or what wed like to play it as. Some love stealth, some hate it but in the end we all love thief here right?

Its  an issue that people don't bother to bring any reveals or hard counters against one. Literally the only class that doesn't is elementalist, which is long overdue for one.

Edited February 6, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

11 hours ago, TezPoca.7203 said:

Now would you believe, i actually didn't keep that in mind^^'. And you're making a very good point. While i still believe that having the ability to counter skills that were devised to counter stealth is not very healthy (not least because it complicates balancing stealth as a whole), i do agree that a follow-up change to death judgment is needed, or it will ultimately result in a nerf for rifle.

Therefore i think your proposal in the last sentence is quite sensible. Have you considered putting this in the main feedback thread? I think i will, and you know how it is: the more, the merrier 🙂

Yes, you get revealed with death's judgement, however if someone counters the damage going off then that's just good counter play. I think that this is less of a issue. I think it's more of a issue if other revealed skills might have been balanced around there being a counter for revealed in the first place.

The reason in the stream for it's removal was just 'shadow meld does too much.' While that may be true, it might have been fair to replace reveal removal with something else or a slight adjustment in cooldown since it is a elite skill. Also it would have made more sense to revisit all revealed skills as a whole at the same time. If a counter is removed then it may cause a imbalance that was overlooked as a oversight.

Edited February 6, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Bern.9613]

Here's what's really, REALLY annoying about all the nerfs to thief. Everybody, EVERYBODY knew, when they started GW2, that thief was in the game. Everybody, EVERYBODY knew thief is a stealth class. Everybody, EVERYBODY knew thief had mobility. Unlike other classes, thief is mostly single target. So why are we seeing ANet, of all people, whining and crying that stealth "is a source of frustrating game play in wvw and pvp"? Why are we seeing ANet saying, shadow meld does too much, when the average reveal from players is 5 - 6 secs? And shadow meld is an elite for one, ONE specialization, deadeye. Hell, thief using any skill from stealth gives revealed, even some utilities and weapon skills give revealed. Does a mesmer get revealed when a clone attacks while mesmer is in stealth? Or a ranger? Or an engi? Why are we seeing ANet, of all people, advocating the destruction of the thief? Why is ANet leading the charge to get rid of thief? Even ANet's attempt at reviving wvw is feeble and half-hearted. They have continually failed to meet their own timetables/deadlines. ANet has been threatening the wvw community with alliances for at least 7 years, has miserable failed 3 "beta testing." The steam release was "delayed" for a year. Steam release was also a failed attempt to grasp the brass ring. ANet didn't have the pride to make any steam achievements and wording their on steam products is so misleading that a lot of people feel they've been shanked. I have noticed the absence of a few thief mains from this subject which makes me wonder, have they tossed the towel in, dropping the the player base numbers or are they just  tired of the lunacy that is the "balance team"? Personally I'm not seeing an advantage of a call to arms for the thief. You never see any ANet playing thief, hell any class for that matter, in wvw nor pvp like they use to. So why should anyone expect ANet to come up with intelligent, meaningful balances?

[Doggie.3184]

57 minutes ago, Bern.9613 said:

 You never see any ANet playing thief, hell any class for that matter, in wvw nor pvp like they use to. So why should anyone expect ANet to come up with intelligent, meaningful balances?

I mean from the Discord rumors it seemed Anet balance devs, or at least the previous ones, personally disliked playing as or against their own creation so I assume they're actively trying to make less people play it and leave it to only the most dedicated ones so the population of stealth users is intentionally low. But stealth being a 'frustrating' thing is kinda their fault since they ruined every single stealthless build and forced more to rely on stealth. Also Mesmers are just as annoying at spamming stealth nonstop.

They even gave superspeed to Stealth instead of to our speedyboi builds who don't want to rely on stealth which woulda made more sense and ofc no group support options for that or Quickness. We were supposed to be the speedsterz which is why I chose this class to main from beginning.

CMC is also apparently primarily an Elementalist and probably very busy trying to clean up the worse spec idea in the game, Catalyst, so I can't imagine him running around on Thief much. From the way they always do balance I always feel like everything they do to determine changes as far as actually playing Thief themselves is done in Spvp lobby on a singular stationary golem and not tested elsewhere. Thus they are unaware on what we go through to actually survive, unaware of how much no AoE hurts in content beyond Spvp, unaware that we actually want group support builds and play with the squads in WvW, unaware that water exists cuz none in Spvp lobby, unaware of how annoying some of our skills are to use for DPS cuz of lack of proper control over how they move us around, etc etc.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 2/3/2023 at 3:47 PM, SehferViega.8725 said:

I can only see nerf for thieves in PvP / WvW:

1) Trickster won't reduce Tricks skills cooldown anymore , but Withdraw doesn't get a base cooldown reduction and Dagger Storm neither. The +1 condition removed is quite useless on a class that has no problems on condi cleaning.

 

2) Roll for Initiative will regenarete 4 initiative instead of 6.

 

3) Swipe/Steal: Daredevil will lost unblockable steal, that's a huge nerf, and one of its core mechanics: it will be a thief with just different dodges.

 

4) Shadow Meld: it won't remove Revealed anymore, becoming basically a Blinding Powder that doesn't blind. Deadeyes will play Dagger Storm or Basilisk Venom. Another core mechanics killed.
 

In the meanwhile without Shadow Arts and Trickery thieves really struggle with initiative costs and Pulmonary Impact is still a joke (and it will be even worse without unblockable Swipe).

 

@Cal Cohen.2358  and Roy (I don't know the handle)

Please consider this and how you want thieves to play in PvP.  

 

The included trick cd changes do not offset the change to trickster, and the signet changes are not effective enough to bridge that gap either. If this change is just for parity, reconsider, provide an additional mitigative benefit for trickster like barrier or alacrity, or adjust the cooldown of -all- tricks. It's a nerf as it stands currently, and Thief is not currently performing in a way that warrants this. 

 

Nobody will use Signet of Malice, because the combat situation required to get value from it will require more healing than signet of malice puts out. This skill requires more than a CD decrease if you want people to use it outside of PvE.  If you're balancing based on skill usage, please consider -why- thieves are overusing certain skills and not using other ones before making changes to the skills that thieves opt for. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Chips.7968]

Just have to wait and see what the impact is as these changes in conjunction with other class changes is what's going to make "really bad".

I'll miss the unblockable on swipe more than the gain of range of it, especially as in conjunction with sigil of absorption, interrupting a channeled block *AND* removing a hatful of boons from the target was *very* useful. Just have to re-evaluate when to steal and given my age, the muscle memory during a fight is going to take a while to address that >.<

As I never ran trickster, meh. 

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

9 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

Just have to wait and see what the impact is as these changes in conjunction with other class changes is what's going to make "really bad".

I'll miss the unblockable on swipe more than the gain of range of it, especially as in conjunction with sigil of absorption, interrupting a channeled block *AND* removing a hatful of boons from the target was *very* useful. Just have to re-evaluate when to steal and given my age, the muscle memory during a fight is going to take a while to address that >.<

As I never ran trickster, meh. 

Yeah I feel the same. The only change I really am not looking forward to is the shadow meld change.

[Chips.7968]

TBH the cooldown reduction for roll for init is very welcome, as it's a stun break. The init trade off is a balance for that, its fine, see how it goes. 

*REALLY* surprised around trickster complaints; did anyone really run it? I've never used it despite having up to 4 tricks in utilities on some builds (roll for init, scorp wire, daggerstorm and possibly withdraw depending on core or daredevil on s/d. Only took sigil of agility if fighting other thieves), as the trade off is to *not* have bountiful theft. That means steal wouldn't remove aegis and stab... which means my prime reason to steal (boon removal and interrupt) would possibly, circumstances depending, fail. 

That's too huge a trade off to ever run trickster. So I don't see trickster as nerf. However, I don't do competitive pvp, and I don't run builds with shadow arts (don't know if rendering shade would remove aegis on stealth attack in order to therefore remove boons). 

Do most thieves really run trickster, or are people just "demanding" changes to withdraw/daggerstorm cooldowns that they never benefitted from in the first place... in order to get a buff. I'm so cynical. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Chips.7968

[SehferViega.8725]

29 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

 

*REALLY* surprised around trickster complaints; did anyone really run it? I've never used it despite having up to 4 tricks in utilities on some builds. 

 

Best core S/D build nowaday runs Trickster.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAwiVlNUw6ScXdttwGZnOMTqrVA-zVZYBR3hUpYo7wmDSocaKKaLB6rAyMEiIQrIgU7SMiigU7RCo12rhCnRAA-w
 

It's a really good and balanced build, not to strong nor too weak, with good damage, decent condi clean and really good mobility.

Trickster was a must have because it gives you 1 condi clean and reduce the base cooldown of Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and Dagger Storm.

What will happen after the new "balance patch" will be that people will run Daredevil instead of Acrobatics, because of the new 1200 range and 25sec cooldown Steal on DD and Bountiful Theft over Trickster. Core S/D will be out of meta definitely.
Here is not a problem of class nerf, they are just changes that make Daredevil a better version of every core thief builds and will make Daredevil playstle more similar to core thief, losing its brawler flavour. 

Can we adapt? Sure.
But gameplay will lose a viable option and some fights will be less fun.

[Chips.7968]

1 hour ago, SehferViega.8725 said:

 

Best core S/D build nowaday runs Trickster.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAwiVlNUw6ScXdttwGZnOMTqrVA-zVZYBR3hUpYo7wmDSocaKKaLB6rAyMEiIQrIgU7SMiigU7RCo12rhCnRAA-w
 

It's a really good and balanced build, not to strong nor too weak, with good damage, decent condi clean and really good mobility.

Trickster was a must have because it gives you 1 condi clean and reduce the base cooldown of Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and Dagger Storm.

What will happen after the new "balance patch" will be that people will run Daredevil instead of Acrobatics, because of the new 1200 range and 25sec cooldown Steal on DD and Bountiful Theft over Trickster. Core S/D will be out of meta definitely.
Here is not a problem of class nerf, they are just changes that make Daredevil a better version of every core thief builds and will make Daredevil playstle more similar to core thief, losing its brawler flavour. 

Can we adapt? Sure.
But gameplay will lose a viable option and some fights will be less fun.

Best build for what, roaming? dueling other s/d thieves? fighting outnumbered fights, pvp, pve, raids, fractals?

That build is only changing based on the non reduction of withdraw and daggerstorm. Are you really going to need to adapt much (fundamentally your gameplay isn't changing whatsoever). It's being buffed as well as "nerfed", as tricksters is now removing 2 condis per trick as offset (never checked if withdraw would remove movement and then the 2 condis, or those 2 condi's could be movement prior to movement condition removal 😄 ).

So basically withdraw has longer cooldown than it did, as does daggerstorm. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Chips.7968

[SehferViega.8725]

7 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

Best build for what, roaming? dueling other s/d thieves? fighting outnumbered fights, pvp, pve, raids, fractals?

 It's being buffed as well as "nerfed", as tricksters is now removing 2 condis per trick as offset.

So basically withdraw has longer cooldown than it did, as does daggerstorm. 

 

If you open it you can see it's a WvW build, so it's for roaming, duelling and fighting outnumbered (not many opponents 1vs2 or 1vs3, but 1vs3 it's really hard, you can do it against some classes or noob players XD).

You can play it in PvP too, but it's out of meta because the damage there is really low compared to WvW.
PvE, Fractal and Raids are not my business, and nobody go there with Sword Daggers builds.

20 seconds Withdraw it would mean 26'215 healing, 5 dodges, 50 seconds of Vigor and 5 condi clean every 100 seconds.
Now you'll get 20'972 healing, 4 dodges, 40 seconds of Vigor and 8 condi clean every 100 seconds. How can you call it if not  a nerf?
Considering that you can easily clean conditions with Infiltrator's Strike (1), Shadow Step (3) and Signet of Agility (3), the +1 condi clean "buff" is just a joke and you really do not need it. So it's a fake buff and a strong nerf.

I hope it would be clearer now.

Edited February 7, 2023 by SehferViega.8725

[MorningGlow.5376]

On 2/6/2023 at 9:37 AM, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

I think it's more of a issue if other revealed skills might have been balanced around there being a counter for revealed in the first place.

[...]

Also it would have made more sense to revisit all revealed skills as a whole at the same time. If a counter is removed then it may cause a imbalance that was overlooked as a oversight.

Since you're mentioning this twice (even thrice, if we count your signature aswell), i think your mixing up two questions here. The first question being: Is "revealed" too strong/ prevalent in the game, to a point where it cripples thief gameplay too much? Possibly. But the question behind this change is: Should DE be allowed to have a counter to "revealed"? I mean, don't you see that your implication ("revealed" being balanced around DE having a counter to it) is the very argument why shadow meld should be nerfed? How to properly balance reveal, if there is a spec, that can just ignore it? It is basically the same reasoning behind the removal of CDR-traits.

So should DE be allowed to have a counter to "revealed"? It's true that "revealed" hits DE harder than other thiefs, due to it's reliance on perodically hitting stealth attacks. But does the nerf completely break DE? I don't think so. Look, do you believe i like seeing my favourite spec get nerfed? of course not. Do i enjoy getting oneshot by unblockable sic 'em rangers, with ever fewer means to defend myself? Holy smokes, no! But this game is bigger than just DE and in the greater picture eventually balancing stealth i think this change is indeed healthy for the overall game. Therefore i apporve it.

Having said that, what i am concerend about (thanks to the Acemos' friendly reminder) is the side-effect on rifle:

Quote

Yes, you get revealed with death's judgement, however if someone counters the damage going off then that's just good counter play. I think that this is less of a issue.

It's less about the averted damge and more about the disrupt in malice flow. Since this skill has one of the strongest cues in game, it is not that hard to avoid. Hence it felt fair to at least have a second shot at it. Rifle is not in a very balanced spot in PvP and i'm afraid this might further tip it into the direction of breaking it.

And lastly...

On 2/6/2023 at 9:37 AM, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

The reason in the stream for it's removal was just 'shadow meld does too much.' While that may be true, it might have been fair to replace reveal removal with something else or a slight adjustment in cooldown since it is a elite skill.

...we agree on that point.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 hour ago, TezPoca.7203 said:

Since you're mentioning this twice (even thrice, if we count your signature aswell), i think your mixing up two questions here. The first question being: Is "revealed" too strong/ prevalent in the game, to a point where it cripples thief gameplay too much? Possibly. But the question behind this change is: Should DE be allowed to have a counter to "revealed"? I mean, don't you see that your implication ("revealed" being balanced around DE having a counter to it) is the very argument why shadow meld should be nerfed? How to properly balance reveal, if there is a spec, that can just ignore it? It is basically the same reasoning behind the removal of CDR-traits.

So should DE be allowed to have a counter to "revealed"? It's true that "revealed" hits DE harder than other thiefs, due to it's reliance on perodically hitting stealth attacks. But does the nerf completely break DE? I don't think so. Look, do you believe i like seeing my favourite spec get nerfed? of course not. Do i enjoy getting oneshot by unblockable sic 'em rangers, with ever fewer means to defend myself? Holy smokes, no! But this game is bigger than just DE and in the greater picture eventually balancing stealth i think this change is indeed healthy for the overall game. Therefore i apporve it.

Having said that, what i am concerend about (thanks to the Acemos' friendly reminder) is the side-effect on rifle:

It's less about the averted damge and more about the disrupt in malice flow. Since this skill has one of the strongest cues in game, it is not that hard to avoid. Hence it felt fair to at least have a second shot at it. Rifle is not in a very balanced spot in PvP and i'm afraid this might further tip it into the direction of breaking it.

And lastly...

...we agree on that point.

while i agree with Zero and others on that its a bit overpowered, it is only on one e-spec...but if anything at least keep the remove revealed IF its on you, if not you go stealth...it only does one or the other...so in order to go stealth with revealed, you need to use BOTH charges of Shadow Meld. 

"If you are revealed, remove the effect, if not revealed apply stealth"

Edited February 7, 2023 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

9 hours ago, TezPoca.7203 said:

Since you're mentioning this twice (even thrice, if we count your signature aswell), i think your mixing up two questions here. The first question being: Is "revealed" too strong/ prevalent in the game, to a point where it cripples thief gameplay too much? Possibly. But the question behind this change is: Should DE be allowed to have a counter to "revealed"? I mean, don't you see that your implication ("revealed" being balanced around DE having a counter to it) is the very argument why shadow meld should be nerfed? How to properly balance reveal, if there is a spec, that can just ignore it? It is basically the same reasoning behind the removal of CDR-traits

No, I am not mixing anything up. The question that I have underlined above is precisely why I first brought up the point in the first place on page 2. Please do not insert words into my mouth or make bland assumptions. The repetition is on purpose as well.

I restated my feedback in the feedback thread as well. Maybe that will clarify your opinion of what was stated.

It makes a whole lot more sense to approach systems thematically and systematically. Take this patch for instance. One of it's main goals was to remove cooldown based traits in order to make build diversity higher. It changed other things, however from what I have observed the main 'scope' or 'focus' of these changes were exactly that. The change to shadow meld feels tacked on based off of the reason that was given in the stream. It is possible it's something that is a let's try and see what happens type of thing too. One of the thieves in my all thief guild thinks a patch that will balance revealed might be coming up next actually.

9 hours ago, TezPoca.7203 said:

So should DE be allowed to have a counter to "revealed"? It's true that "revealed" hits DE harder than other thiefs, due to it's reliance on perodically hitting stealth attacks. But does the nerf completely break DE? I don't think so. Look, do you believe i like seeing my favourite spec get nerfed? of course not. Do i enjoy getting oneshot by unblockable sic 'em rangers, with ever fewer means to defend myself? Holy smokes, no! But this game is bigger than just DE and in the greater picture eventually balancing stealth i think this change is indeed healthy for the overall game. Therefore i apporve it.

Did I state that it would break DE? No to the contrary. I also have stated that shadow meld is strong which you have reiterated. I am talking about high level ideas. Revealed should be balanced as a 'whole', the whole being  'the complete game in its entirety'.

9 hours ago, TezPoca.7203 said:

It's less about the averted damge and more about the disrupt in malice flow. Since this skill has one of the strongest cues in game, it is not that hard to avoid. Hence it felt fair to at least have a second shot at it. Rifle is not in a very balanced spot in PvP and i'm afraid this might further tip it into the direction of breaking it.

And lastly...

This is another reason changing shadow meld might be bad without more thought.

Note: I only really run DE in WvW and PvE. For PvP I stick to daredevil non shadow art builds. WvW has much more space to maneuver. Moreover in WvW I mostly use shadow meld as a reactive skill to counter revealed from an opponent since opponent's reveals usually last much longer (6s) than coming out of deaths judgement (3s). Three seconds is peanuts when compared to the length that opponents dole out.

Edited February 8, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Tbh, Daredevil loss of unblockable is good for me. I hate daredevil DP maniacs.

And besides, core thief is just more skillful in WvW with SD. If you play SD daredevil you suck lmao

[SehferViega.8725]

39 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Tbh, Daredevil loss of unblockable is good for me. I hate daredevil DP maniacs.

And besides, core thief is just more skillful in WvW with SD. If you play SD daredevil you suck lmao

 

With new updates, SD core would be replaced by SD Daredevil, if you want to play with Sword.
With 1200 range and 25 seconds Steal, Daredevil is a better option (in everything) than Acrobatics.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

4 minutes ago, SehferViega.8725 said:

 

With new updates, SD core would be replaced by SD Daredevil, if you want to play with Sword.
With 1200 range and 25 seconds Steal, Daredevil is a better option (in everything) than Acrobatics.

Typical anet retardation