Tempest: dodge is Alac loss

[Reig.8173]

As title said: Tempest can't dodge if want to bring Alacrity.

Comparison:
Mechanist can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Specter can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Ranger can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Chronomancer can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Mirage can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Renegade can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Willbender can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source, or maybe yes cause it need to hit to bring alacrity.

What happened when Tempest dodge?
Tempest loses his Alacrity source and put into a minimal 7 seconds of cooldown (cause Tempest need to change to another attunement and have to wait for Singularity and then Overload) or ~18 seconds if Tempest dont change attunement.

Pulsing alacrity while channeling Overload is not the solve, its still punish the Tempest if it have an emergency that can KILL IT and have to dodge... losing the remaining pulses.

Problem is: while channeling.

The solution must be: (as name said, SINGULARITY)

Lucid Singularity: When you attain the SINGULARITY, at the start of your next Overload apply Alacrity to nearby allies. 
1 pulse of 7 seconds, or more pulses, the quantity of pulses doesnt matter too much,
the thing is Tempest can't dodge cause dodge cancel the channelings, and cancel the channelings is a alac lose.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Reig.8173

[Infusion.7149]

Old news. If it is a single CC and not lethal damage you can just tank the damage with the single stab stack.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Most quick/alac builds have some punishing mechanics.  Cata has energy, Qharbi requires life force, Amirage forces to dodge, Qchrono has all sorts of troublesome mechanics, ranger Spectre warrior and firebrand all require a considerable amount of utility skills to upkeep. Alac Bender requires to hit within certain time frames. I dont know to much about engi/Rev,but i can imagine they also have some struggles to deal with. 

[Infusion.7149]

Mech has to just autoattack on mace with barrier engine 😀

Alac ren has to manage energy but you can just press F4.

[HowlKamui.5120]

IMO if you're put into a situation like that, just tank the hit. Tempests' protection has buffed damage reduction with their minor grandmaster trait.

[zeyeti.8347]

1 hour ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

IMO if you're put into a situation like that, just tank the hit. Tempests' protection has buffed damage reduction with their minor grandmaster trait.

This buff make them just as tanky as heavy armors wearers , not a big deal ... , just play something else than Hat , it has obvious way more weak points than all others healers , free to all of you to think it's not true , but numbers show tempest is one of the least played spec off all the game (on podium with thief) and i don't think it's because ppl think it's too hard to pull off , i personnaly think it's beacsue it is weak , the whole traitline is weak , only Gm traits are super powerfull , and sadly there is where your alac provider is , so no choice to take bastion or tempest damage increased , making it a much worse dps/alac and heal/alac than the others , couple with that a cluncky way to give alac , worse than all others .

Yes druid has to take like 2 spirits to cover alacrity , what else you wanna take ?

Yes Firebrand has to take 1... utilty to cover quick 

Yes mech belch out alac , why literally being afk

Yes rev has a one button alac provider 

Yes specter is a bit cluncky too with pits animation.

But none of those spec has to go trough a 2.8 / 4 secs cast time to provide their alacrity , and all of them have way more windows to fail a dodge without punishement , ...

Yes tempest can give himself stab ... are you gonna burn a 30 secs skill cd , who is supposed to be used as a group breakstun , or use a 30 secs aegis for your own weaknesses ? 

Yes there is a "stab on OL" trait , and no i don't want to strip up my vigor and regen uptime for that ...

You can play Hat to put another challenge on your challenge or play another class but only with your nose , seems fair enough.

Edited February 17, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[soulknight.9620]

15 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Yes druid has to take like 2 spirits to cover alacrity , what else you wanna take ?

If i recall correctly it was 3 spirits for perma alac. 

15 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Yes Firebrand has to take 1... utilty to cover quick 

Minimum of 2 (heal mantra with trait +quick mantra). A single quick mantra is not enough. 

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

3 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

If i recall correctly it was 3 spirits for perma alac. 

Minimum of 2 (heal mantra with trait +quick mantra). A single quick mantra is not enough. 

 

When most players say two spirits, they mean two utility skills, due to having the heal skill available for spirits. This is in contrast to builds like Quickness Warrior which can't take the boon in their heal slot (or for others, in their elite slot), and as a result such classes are much more limited in how they provide Alacrity or Quickness while still being able to provide sufficient utility both to themselves and others.

 

This greatly changes how balanced each class is at giving their unique boon, since naturally if you have more utility slots available, you and your allies can survive alot easier.

 

Machinist and Renegade are the most overpowered for this, Firebrand and Druid are just okay, Harbinger still needs a utility and elite elixer to cover Quickness while shroud is down, and so on. The absolute worst offender is probably Tempest, who can only access Alacrity once per attunement swap.

Edited February 17, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[soulknight.9620]

56 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

When most players say two spirits, they mean two utility skills, due to having the heal skill available for spirits.

Ah, i see, but i do think people underestimate healing slot, since it can also be customised just like utility slots. And choosing a spirit/mantra for boon uptime is by itself a tradeoff of a sort. 

58 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

The absolute worst offender is probably Tempest, who can only access Alacrity once per attunement swap.

I disagree here. Basically to provide alac HAT needs to pick one trait and thats it. All of the utility slots are free, healing slot too (although i do know that there are some better options to fill these like stab/aegis shouts). Ofc the need to use OL is not ideal atm. But thats due to having a strict timer on alac uptime. If anet would add 1-2 sec of base alac (withough boon dura) to that trait or any underused shout like feel the burn most of the HAT problems would be solved. HAT needs a bit more slack when it comest to staying in one attunement (for example water for more sustaint heals). 

Nevertheless ive managed to make staff HAT work pretty good after the patch. 

[zeyeti.8347]

4 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

If i recall correctly it was 3 spirits for perma alac. 

with 100% boon duration , spirits give 8 secs of alac , have all (not the elite) 20 sec cd (15 with alac) on the tp skill and a cats time of 1/2 sec , with math that does that does 8x2=16secs , so yes with two spirits you can upkeep alacrity.

 

4 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Minimum of 2 (heal mantra with trait +quick mantra). A single quick mantra is not enough. 

With recent rework of mantra the quick giving mantra give 5 sec of quickness and the last charge 10 sec  . With fully unloading the mantra you give 20 sec of quickness , the mantra if fully unloaded have a 25 sec cd (20 with alac) , with a cast time of 2.25 sec , you have 90% quick uptime if you spam the skill 

 

On both of those two , you take more alacrity and quickness source for confort , on Hat you take more boon duration to compensate the failure of an OL.

Alacrity should be shared with no punishement as Hat has , cause no other support has that kind of shenanigans to go trough , not a surprise Hat is the least played "meta" healer ...

Also others healers can adapt to their party . 

druid can take more might with Gm traits , Firebrand can choose stability or more aegis .

on the other hand its' the party who have to adapt to someone playing Hat , need to stack tight if the Hat plays with staff , need to see if fury is covered (yeah i am not gonna play air as a healer , for the sole purpose to give fury...) , ...

just what is the strong point of Hat ?

Druid is long range healing

Firebrand amazing access to aegis and stab

Mech , best kiter , able to maintain fury , might , alacrity from a 1200 range ( not even talking about "crisis zone")

And Hat ? 3 secs + boon uptime ? ( a "Wish" version of the herald) , what are the strong points ? more healing ? i would like to see that in front of a druid unloading his avatar skills . More defensive skills ? 1aegis and 1 stab every 30/25 secs ... yeah you can pretty much maintain stab with staff now , but no more boon extension and gl maintaining might if your quickness booner is a qfb or a scrapper... , boon from a long range ? ha ofc with a fire Ol 180 area against Mech "Arms: High-Impact Drivers" giving might in a 600 are (almost 4 time to size of Hat area ...)

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[soulknight.9620]

28 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

with 100% boon duration , spirits give 8 secs of alac , have all (not the elite) 20 sec cd (15 with alac) on the tp skill and a cats time of 1/2 sec , with math that does that does 8x2=16secs , so yes with two spirits you can upkeep alacrity.

Nope, check ingame. You basically lack 2-3 secs of alac for 100% uptime. 
Doublechecked with quick. Still lacking 2-3 secs. 

33 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

With recent rework of mantra the quick giving mantra give 5 sec of quickness and the last charge 10 sec  . With fully unloading the mantra you give 20 sec of quickness , the mantra if fully unloaded have a 25 sec cd (20 with alac) , with a cast time of 2.25 sec , you have 90% quick uptime if you spam the skill 

Wrong. Check ingame. Your downtime is somewhat 4-5 secs. You provide 20 secs of quick. There is a icd on mantra use 0.75+0.5 (thats 1.25 secs, first tick without quick ofc). +2.25 reload. That 3.5 secs at best with ideal ping. In rl situation that end up with 5-6 secs of quick downtime (ive just checked it ingame got that result). So if we look at 20+2.25 that 22.5 secs rotation. You lack 4-5 sec of lacking quick is around  77-82% uptime. Checked the arcdps buff tool, with alac on golem i get 82-83% uptime. 

And although i do agree that thats a lot of quick uptime for one skill, BUT it isnt 100%, which was the point of ur original comment. So the bare minimum is like i said heal mantra +trait +the quick mantra. Thats two skills, not one. 

 

48 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

On both of those two , you take more alacrity and quickness source for confort , on Hat you take more boon duration to compensate the failure of an OL.

Nope, not comfort, but necessity. You cant provide 100% with ur setup. And you simply cant join a group and say "ima doing 80-90% uptime" and not get kicked out before you even finish the sentence (ofc i hyperbolize a bit). People expect you to perform constant 100% uptime. Thats where second mantra and 3rd spirit comes into play.

51 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Also others healers can adapt to their party . 

druid can take more might with Gm traits , Firebrand can choose stability or more aegis .

HAT can bring more stab for the group (staff is like easy 5 stacks of might during one rota). More might if the group failes to stack might of fire OL. And many other things ive already discussed with u in different topic. 

53 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

just what is the strong point of Hat ?

Stab uptime if pretty high, prot,vigor (+endurance bonus regen from jumping into water), superspeed, aegis, rebound, nice blind uptime, good cc, one of the strongest aoe burst heals, one of the best condi cleanses, range option. If thats not enough i dont know what do you expect from a support. The only thing HAT lacks atm is a few more secs of alac to get that slack when you overstay in attunement for utility purposes. 

53 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Druid is long range healing

Checks out with staff. 

54 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Firebrand amazing access to aegis and stab

Checks out with staff hat. 

[zeyeti.8347]

You know you gonna swap attunement with your staff so your AA healing is like 1/4 of your rotation available , druid is 66% of the time in his avatars if he wishes (15 sec duration vs 7.5 cd) not to forget that staying in water is prohibited casue you need the boonshare and either i agree (i tested too ingame) you lack 1-2 sec alac with two spirits on druid , what else you need to take  ? a glyph for stunbreak ? you can just play with water spirit and get ridoff one spirit, but you want the trap for condi cleanse ? your avatar have 0,75 sec 1 condi cleanse skill , as a druid when i kite and don't need spirits , i simply still play with them , 75% of the glyph are useless and all other skill are really pvp or open world oriented even druid has a better aegis than ele (on a 25 sec cd vs 30 .. while the shout give more boons , ok), i agree on the staff who can give 100% stab uptime , but where is the aegis ? and i discussed staff with you on the other topic , it is a good healing weapon , but for boons it is trash , no power share (only from combos and the tiny 180 Ol fire) no fury , no prot. and all of that in the 4 attunements . There is a fact https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity this shows that even the tempest was the 1st e-spec from ele it is one of the lowest played , why ? you now see this little curve that just came out the patch cause ppl curious , thats why tempest got a 0,7% increase playrate ... ppl curiosity , i may be wrong , but it's my personal feeling , while i agree i was wrong on druid spirits , you need at least 3 for 100% uptime 

[Zaret.1450]

Im not sure wich game mode youre playing, if its pve i think as long as you know the boss enought you can overload savely and maintain alac well, moreso with the new stab you get with earth, in wvw i see tons of tempest cleansers and i play that myself and its pretty good, and yes im playing it with the alac trait, and it works good.

I mean yes sometimes in wvw i have to dodge or they cancell my overload, but thats also others doing well or me failing timing sometimes, etc etc.

[zeyeti.8347]

12 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

Im not sure wich game mode youre playing, if its pve i think as long as you know the boss enought you can overload savely and maintain alac well, moreso with the new stab you get with earth, in wvw i see tons of tempest cleansers and i play that myself and its pretty good, and yes im playing it with the alac trait, and it works good.

I mean yes sometimes in wvw i have to dodge or they cancell my overload, but thats also others doing well or me failing timing sometimes, etc etc.

Overload safely and maintain alac as well , why do we have to bother a 2.8 cast time while the others give x2 more alac in less than 2.8 sec , thats my point , in wvw , i don't play , si i don't know , and i will not talk about something i don't know , yes now we can play with staff and give ourself a good chunk of stab , but what about deadly blow from bosses who require a dodge ? if you know the boss you don't care thats it ? but why do i have to carefull choose the time i need to overload , in front of a druid and a mech who are literally farting alacrity ?

Even you take staff , healings is great , i agree , but what about boons ? if you play dagger warhorn , the boons are incredible , the healing horrible ... if you play staff the healing is great the boons are horrible... , others supports have both great boon uptime and great healing at same time .

I mean such little change could it make pair in term of efficiency in front of the others alacrity providers , alacrity bend to aura (allowing bastion of elements to be picked up) , increase boon apllication from overlaod fire an earth (prot. and might) from 180 to a 360 , 360 is the base range for all key boons apllication the others have .

As show in my previous message , tempest isn't played at all in endgame pve , while you have druid at 5% and a mech staying at 17%.

I know , mech is also played alac/dps/condi , so do tempest no ?

Edited February 18, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Reig.8173]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

but why do i have to carefull choose the time i need to overload

people will say: git gud

and its sad because they think the game is fine like this, for them is logical that can't dodge is the perfect punishing mechanic because everyone have punishing mechanic...

but no at dodge.

 

with the alacrity at start of the overload still have dodge problems like: might loss, protection loss, damage loss if dps, its still a Tempest, it just change the alacrity to make normal like the others 7 specializations alac bringer, all the others can dodge and keep their source of 80-100% alac uptime, but you have to choose when overload cause you cant dodge and your uptime will be bad (and there are bug pulse in water and earth, 1 less pulse when you have quickness)

Enough that Tempest is bad healer cause lose Bastion or bad dps to not even can't dodge for Alacrity, a boon that anet decides to include in 2022 out of the Healer trait, and out of the DPS trait.

I dont know what people say "git gud" is playing. Maybe they're mechanist mains and never had that problem.

Go to ask for Alacrity underwater in the Engineer forum guys.

We are playing the same game... I'm just asking for Quality of Life in Tempest...
 

20 persons plays Tempest and is fine for you how it is cause git gud
and compares to quickness bringers... ok.

On 2/16/2023 at 9:06 PM, Reig.8173 said:

Comparison:
Mechanist can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Specter can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Ranger can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Chronomancer can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Mirage can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Renegade can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source.
Willbender can dodge and dont lose his Alacrity source, or maybe yes cause it need to hit to bring alacrity.

Lets start by the most controversial: Boon Thief/Daredevil: can bring quickness in some raid bosses when steal.
Herald spam his Facets (can dodge in every moment).
Firebrand at every 7 seconds spam his heal and mantra quickness (can dodge in every moment).
Scrapper spam his gyros (can dodge in every moment).
Harbinger in shroud at every 3 seconds, 2 elixirs out of shroud (can dodge in every moment).
Chronomancer at every 3 shatters (can dodge in every moment, it will lose DPS if dodge)
Warrior throw 2-3 banners... that's all and yes, it can dodge.
Catalyst F3 in Air... can dodge. But if a Catalyst dodge it fall down his dps.

Dodge in those cases is DPS loss.

But if you dodge as Tempest not only you loss Alacrity, you're make to every of your subgroup loses DPS.
 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Reig.8173

[Sarius.9285]

On 2/17/2023 at 2:10 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

Mech has to just autoattack on mace with barrier engine 😀

not even, the golem alone is enough to upkeep 100% alac 

[zeyeti.8347]

3 hours ago, Sarius.9285 said:

not even, the golem alone is enough to upkeep 100% alac 

Golem can maintain 66% of alac completely afk , and if you choose to "auto" all his skills it's easy 100% alac , fury , might , with some prot. , aegis , and stab . .... vs a tempest who has to go trough overloads , but all that trouble make tempest a far more efficient healer no ? not at all ! Think people don't want an easy healer as mech is , but at least not such punishing mechanics .

[Markus.6415]

I don't know... I'm quite happy with the recent changes to HAT and now that Staff is nice i don't have to consider the dagger in mainhand anymore (still continued to use scepter though). The only thing that is hurting my elementalist heart is the Elemental Bastion trait that we all had to abandon. (no idea about WvW or PvP, I mainly play PvE)

I miss my long gone times with those healing auras on 9 allies 😢

Edited February 20, 2023 by Markus.6415

[Sahne.6950]

On 2/17/2023 at 1:06 AM, Reig.8173 said:

Tempest loses his Alacrity source and put into a minimal 7 seconds of cooldown

i always thought its 4 seconds till you can overload........  today i learned    /sarcasm

Edited February 21, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[zeyeti.8347]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:00 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

i always thought its 4 seconds till you can overload........  today i learned    /sarcasm

no it's 5 , you are your own source of alacrity , if you blow up your alac it's 5 secondes to have the overload , not counting water and earth overlaod are bugged ... loose 1 pulse of alac whenever under the effect of quickness ... tested !

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity i know i show this thing a lot but let's appreciate the 0% playrate on fractals and the average 1% in  strikes for tempest ... i know the API is bugged , but i am sure it's no way far from 0% .

Anet there is a problem with tempest , yes it is bad , useless and bugged ...

Edited March 11, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Avatara.1042]

Quickness causes alacrity pulse loss?

[Ragnarox.9601]

Tempest gets punished cause hes locked in animation for 5 sec.

 

They should give ability to push overloaded element again when casted for 50% dmg output but no aoe field. That would solve issues being locked into casting while taking lethal dmg.

[zeyeti.8347]

1 hour ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Quickness causes alacrity pulse loss?

Yes , for an unknown reason overloading from earth or water get you one less pulse of alac , ending up at 11 secs in fire and air and 9 secs in earth and water . This bug occurs only if you have quickness while overloading .

[Markus.6415]

On 3/12/2023 at 1:46 PM, zeyeti.8347 said:

Yes , for an unknown reason overloading from earth or water get you one less pulse of alac , ending up at 11 secs in fire and air and 9 secs in earth and water . This bug occurs only if you have quickness while overloading .

Thanks for testing and clarifying! I noticed something's really off, but never knew where. Having issues keeping alac up with nearly 100% boon duration on HAT is really odd.