Scrapper is busted

[Kstyle.5829]

On 3/8/2023 at 3:02 PM, DanSH.6143 said:

I'm not sure what changed with scrapper exactly, but it is just dealing insane amounts of damage from stealth. they seem to have a lot of sustain and mobility aswell. 

I think the game works best when high damage is telegraphed, getting hit by 15k dmg from stealth by a superspeeding scrapper just doesn't feel fair.

Scrapper has literally only had nerfs for 2 years straight so nothing has changed for the better.  This just proves you don't know any classes traits and skills besides the one you play.  Instead of recognizing your lack of skill and ignorance you just decided to complain on the forums.   Well congrats ANET has nerffed it yet again.  I guess you'll have to find something else to complain about now rather than just studying the other class abilities and learning how to counter them.  

 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Kstyle.5829

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

21 hours ago, Kstyle.5829 said:

Scrapper has literally only had nerfs for 2 years straight so nothing has changed for the better.  This just proves you don't know any classes traits and skills besides the one you play.  Instead of recognizing your lack of skill and ignorance you just decided to complain on the forums.   Well congrats ANET has nerffed it yet again.  I guess you'll have to find something else to complain about now rather than just studying the other class abilities and learning how to counter them.  

 

 

But engi constant get buff.

People going around saying Nades barely have been buffed damage wise seem to forget that they take Tools *and* Explosives now! 
Thats alot of free damage it didnt have before, certainly crossing into the "unhealthy" level! 

[Kodama.6453]

10 hours ago, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

But engi constant get buff.

Literally the only changes to engineer in the last patch were nothing but nerfs. Please, read and think before typing on the forums.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

One thing that has been bugging me about this build now that players are beginning to better understand its use, is that it opens up with both unblockable CC/DPS and Reveal.

Not sure if I'd label it as OP just yet, but it's definitely obnoxious due to how much counterplay that removes vs. the bursting.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[shion.2084]

24 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

One thing that has been bugging me about this build now that players are beginning to better understand its use, is that it opens up with both unblockable CC/DPS and Reveal.

Not sure if I'd label it as OP just yet, but it's definitely obnoxious due to how much counterplay that removes vs. the bursting.

Are you talking about the engi build?   Its only unblockable is blast gyro that does this big red circle count down thing.   You don't want that to be the first hit from stealth because you won't have time to place your other stunning skills before your opponent invulns or ports or starts getting evasive.
The opening is actually to turn on blast while in stealth... but then start with something like thunderclap from stealth while blast is still counting down its timer.

The bomber engi build does not run reveal (lock on).  I take it to deal with the bomber engi build sometimes, but the build that does the stealth bomb runs the swift kits that lets them have swiftness so they don't have to blow their super speeds.

[shion.2084]

12 hours ago, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

But engi constant get buff.

People going around saying Nades barely have been buffed damage wise seem to forget that they take Tools *and* Explosives now! 
Thats alot of free damage it didnt have before, certainly crossing into the "unhealthy" level! 

This is factually untrue.

Engi lost quickness from kinetic accelerator, and last patch the lost might on multiple skills and stealth.  Please stop lying.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@shion.2084

People in NA who make it to the final rounds of ATs are definitely running Lock On lately over Streamlined kits.

These same people are also the ones I'm talking about that are evolving their understanding & usage of Blast Gyro to use it at certain different times vs. different types of builds, to create compounded pressure that will always ruin your block frames when you need them. It's proving to be problematic to balance now that players are beginning to get really good on this build.

The problem doesn't occur when you fight a Scrapper 1v1 or in ranked games where players are rather uncoordinated. The problem occurs when higher tiered players in ATs are pushing together out of a stealth burst vs. one single called target. There simply isn't counterplay to this outside of straight invulnerability or being positioned so that you can make good use of a long range teleport like Blink. Not all classes/builds have access to these things.

Here is why this is problematic to balance:

1. It is capable of too easily stealthing a full team while on the move. It doesn't have to stop and put down a smoke field and blast and leap and do any prep time like everything else in the game has to do. No, it just pops a single skill with a pulsing stealth field that moves with it, that is also a moving smoke field, and you can no longer see the gyro while the entire team is moving at you with a prepared stealth nuke. We aren't talking stealth ganking anymore. This has become stealth nuking.
2. It's also turning otherwise slower team fighters into fast roamers by being able to buff the entire stealthed team with super speed, while they are moving while stealthing, wasting no rotational time for a party stealth prebuff like this. Preparing a massive stealth play like this always has been and always should remain a dedicated coordinated action that pauses rotational time to prebuff, so we have a tradeoff here. You gonna keep moving or you gonna slow down to prepare a full team stealth play? It should NOT be something that happens instantly that actually increases your team's rotational time due to super speed buffs happening in the midst of the moving stealth field. Their ability to do this, and the raw power behind the DPS & CC that lands out of this stealth nuke, makes Thief look like outdated garbage, when Thief is supposed to be "the stealth guy".
3. What we are looking at is the birth of what I feel is an unhealthy new job role. Scrapper is so potent at priming full team stealth nukes too easily, that it has far transcended the team stealth capabilities of every other class combined. This warrants the label of a new job role.

I've already stated that I don't feel Scrapper is OP because it explodes when you hit it if you play around it correctly. However, players should be asking themselves, is this a healthy route/dynamic for the game to be going down? Players have joked around for years calling GW2 "Stealth Wars 2" due to the amount of stealthing going on this game, but we aint jokin around anymore with the current implementation of Scrapper. This build really is making the game feel like some kind of title designed around the idea & mandatory use of everyone attacking each other from complete invisibility at all times.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 3/14/2023 at 2:12 AM, shion.2084 said:

To be fair sometimes I die before my screen renders the character.  There’s some wierd prolonged invis behaviour.  Bust as a warrior… what are they going to do mele ing into your full counter?

thats not even stealth issue, game is old and kitten.
its not unusual for rev to teleport on top of you and just not appear on your screen for 1-2s or for s/d thief to do the same kitten half the time they teleport.

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@shion.2084

People in NA who make it to the final rounds of ATs are definitely running Lock On lately over Streamlined kits.

These same people are also the ones I'm talking about that are evolving their understanding & usage of Blast Gyro to use it at certain different times vs. different types of builds, to create compounded pressure that will always ruin your block frames when you need them. It's proving to be problematic to balance now that players are beginning to get really good on this build.

The problem doesn't occur when you fight a Scrapper 1v1 or in ranked games where players are rather uncoordinated. The problem occurs when higher tiered players in ATs are pushing together out of a stealth burst vs. one single called target. There simply isn't counterplay to this outside of straight invulnerability or being positioned so that you can make good use of a long range teleport like Blink. Not all classes/builds have access to these things.

Here is why this is problematic to balance:

1. It is capable of too easily stealthing a full team while on the move. It doesn't have to stop and put down a smoke field and blast and leap and do any prep time like everything else in the game has to do. No, it just pops a single skill with a pulsing stealth field that moves with it, that is also a moving smoke field, and you can no longer see the gyro while the entire team is moving at you with a prepared stealth nuke. We aren't talking stealth ganking anymore. This has become stealth nuking.
2. It's also turning otherwise slower team fighters into fast roamers by being able to buff the entire stealthed team with super speed, while they are moving while stealthing, wasting no rotational time for a party stealth prebuff like this. Preparing a massive stealth play like this always has been and always should remain a dedicated coordinated action that pauses rotational time to prebuff, so we have a tradeoff here. You gonna keep moving or you gonna slow down to prepare a full team stealth play? It should NOT be something that happens instantly that actually increases your team's rotational time due to super speed buffs happening in the midst of the moving stealth field. Their ability to do this, and the raw power behind the DPS & CC that lands out of this stealth nuke, makes Thief look like outdated garbage, when Thief is supposed to be "the stealth guy".
3. What we are looking at is the birth of what I feel is an unhealthy new job role. Scrapper is so potent at priming full team stealth nukes too easily, that it has far transcended the team stealth capabilities of every other class combined. This warrants the label of a new job role.

I've already stated that I don't feel Scrapper is OP because it explodes when you hit it if you play around it correctly. However, players should be asking themselves, is this a healthy route/dynamic for the game to be going down? Players have joked around for years calling GW2 "Stealth Wars 2" due to the amount of stealthing going on this game, but we aint jokin around anymore with the current implementation of Scrapper. This build really is making the game feel like some kind of title designed around the idea & mandatory use of everyone attacking each other from complete invisibility at all times.

This is why I keep saying that they should give Sneak Gyro it's WvW tuning. No more smoke field. Less stealth, obvious visual indicator when it goes off. 

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@shion.2084

People in NA who make it to the final rounds of ATs are definitely running Lock On lately over Streamlined kits.

These same people are also the ones I'm talking about that are evolving their understanding & usage of Blast Gyro to use it at certain different times vs. different types of builds, to create compounded pressure that will always ruin your block frames when you need them. It's proving to be problematic to balance now that players are beginning to get really good on this build.

The problem doesn't occur when you fight a Scrapper 1v1 or in ranked games where players are rather uncoordinated. The problem occurs when higher tiered players in ATs are pushing together out of a stealth burst vs. one single called target. There simply isn't counterplay to this outside of straight invulnerability or being positioned so that you can make good use of a long range teleport like Blink. Not all classes/builds have access to these things.

Here is why this is problematic to balance:

1. It is capable of too easily stealthing a full team while on the move. It doesn't have to stop and put down a smoke field and blast and leap and do any prep time like everything else in the game has to do. No, it just pops a single skill with a pulsing stealth field that moves with it, that is also a moving smoke field, and you can no longer see the gyro while the entire team is moving at you with a prepared stealth nuke. We aren't talking stealth ganking anymore. This has become stealth nuking.
2. It's also turning otherwise slower team fighters into fast roamers by being able to buff the entire stealthed team with super speed, while they are moving while stealthing, wasting no rotational time for a party stealth prebuff like this. Preparing a massive stealth play like this always has been and always should remain a dedicated coordinated action that pauses rotational time to prebuff, so we have a tradeoff here. You gonna keep moving or you gonna slow down to prepare a full team stealth play? It should NOT be something that happens instantly that actually increases your team's rotational time due to super speed buffs happening in the midst of the moving stealth field. Their ability to do this, and the raw power behind the DPS & CC that lands out of this stealth nuke, makes Thief look like outdated garbage, when Thief is supposed to be "the stealth guy".
3. What we are looking at is the birth of what I feel is an unhealthy new job role. Scrapper is so potent at priming full team stealth nukes too easily, that it has far transcended the team stealth capabilities of every other class combined. This warrants the label of a new job role.

I've already stated that I don't feel Scrapper is OP because it explodes when you hit it if you play around it correctly. However, players should be asking themselves, is this a healthy route/dynamic for the game to be going down? Players have joked around for years calling GW2 "Stealth Wars 2" due to the amount of stealthing going on this game, but we aint jokin around anymore with the current implementation of Scrapper. This build really is making the game feel like some kind of title designed around the idea & mandatory use of everyone attacking each other from complete invisibility at all times.

Yeah I fought youle and parks and some other good folks in an unranked and every one of them ran scrapper.   I took locked on and the the trait that applies weakness on CC to counter.  In that scenario you don’t need streamline if you all just cycle you gyros for group SS.  But we spread out and beat them because a pack like that can only be in one place.  It was very close though.  If they’d gone 5 cata they’d have won

[shion.2084]

4 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

thats not even stealth issue, game is old and kitten.
its not unusual for rev to teleport on top of you and just not appear on your screen for 1-2s or for s/d thief to do the same kitten half the time they teleport.

I got hit by PIE engi today, and it wasn’t even from stealth, but one minute I thought I was dodging and the next I was I. A different location and dead.  Talk about getting hit hard 🙂. It was instantaneous from my perspective but it had registered like I got hit by a whole barrage of skills.   I just didn’t get to actually have the fight or see any.  I spent the rest of the match pew pewing from a distance …. Barely won that one.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

I got hit by PIE engi today, and it wasn’t even from stealth, but one minute I thought I was dodging and the next I was I. A different location and dead.  Talk about getting hit hard 🙂. It was instantaneous from my perspective but it had registered like I got hit by a whole barrage of skills.   I just didn’t get to actually have the fight or see any.  I spent the rest of the match pew pewing from a distance …. Barely won that one.

That's what I'm talking about right there.

It was the other day I was fighting Zyn on Scrapper, someone else on Scrapper, and Stevie on DE, in the final round of an AT. Our team also felt the need to run two Scrappers. It was during this match that I had to ask myself: "Is this amount of stealth ok? Is it even fun?" Because essentially what was happening is the Scrappers force everyone on both teams to have to play like teams of DP Daredevils vs. DP Daredevils, where you must abuse stealth as often as possible because if you don't, you will be the one getting stealth nuked next.

That dynamic right there ^ is why people are starting to run Lock On.

But yeah, during that match it felt cringey as hell that every opponent target was perpetually going in and out of stealth the entire game, and also that I had to rely on my Scrappers to be able to do the same thing, in conjunction with my own stealths as a Soulbeast. It's just equates to a dynamic where even though there was only 1 actual Thief in the game, it felt like everyone on each team was a DP Daredevil constantly using stealth mechanics.

In my opinion it is too much stealth when the game feels like Milton Bradley Battleship instead of a GW2 Conquest Match.

Pointing out again, I'm not saying it's OP. I'm pointing out what it's doing to the flow of the game's dynamic.

[shion.2084]

15 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

That's what I'm talking about right there.

It was the other day I was fighting Zyn on Scrapper, someone else on Scrapper, and Stevie on DE, in the final round of an AT. Our team also felt the need to run two Scrappers. It was during this match that I had to ask myself: "Is this amount of stealth ok? Is it even fun?" Because essentially what was happening is the Scrappers force everyone on both teams to have to play like teams of DP Daredevils vs. DP Daredevils, where you must abuse stealth as often as possible because if you don't, you will be the one getting stealth nuked next.

That dynamic right there ^ is why people are starting to run Lock On.

But yeah, during that match it felt cringey as hell that every opponent target was perpetually going in and out of stealth the entire game, and also that I had to rely on my Scrappers to be able to do the same thing, in conjunction with my own stealths as a Soulbeast. It's just equates to a dynamic where even though there was only 1 actual Thief in the game, it felt like everyone on each team was a DP Daredevil constantly using stealth mechanics.

In my opinion it is too much stealth when the game feels like Milton Bradley Battleship instead of a GW2 Conquest Match.

Pointing out again, I'm not saying it's OP. I'm pointing out what it's doing to the flow of the game's dynamic.

We’ll you should be happy with the stealth gyro nerf then.