Scrapper is busted

[gmmg.9210]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:02 PM, DanSH.6143 said:

I'm not sure what changed with scrapper exactly, but it is just dealing insane amounts of damage from stealth. they seem to have a lot of sustain and mobility aswell. 

I think the game works best when high damage is telegraphed, getting hit by 15k dmg from stealth by a superspeeding scrapper just doesn't feel fair.

I don't think it's necessarily too strong but it's wrecking newer/more inexperienced players. Might need in a slight nerf in the same fashion that flame thrower had back in the day, but tbh I'd rather just a better telegraph. It is pretty much a one shot meme still, they could really just shave the damage and make the spec more bruiser style.

[StefanB.4928]

5 hours ago, DanSH.6143 said:

Nobody likes playing against it,

 Youre wrong, i love playing against it. Its a predictable 1 trick pony that is an easy focus target. 

Anything with ranged will farm any guy playing that build.  Most range builds have more ways to reset the fight or reopen from stealth.  And thats all you have to do / be able to do. 

The only thing this build is good at is snowballing and +1 ing fights where its not the main focus.  If it is the main focus its mayor liablility in the team since it has terrible sustain.  

Edited March 10, 2023 by StefanB.4928

[Vancho.8750]

9 hours ago, DanSH.6143 said:

why are you trying to pretend scrapper isn't insanely op right guy, it deals way too much damage from range with nades by just spamming. or running away and throwing nades backwards with superspeed, it's degenerate gameplay, it deals way too much damage for the range, aoe size, versatility it has. Not to mention that is partly ignores los and pretty much ignores single blocks like aegis.

haing 16k with tons of superspeed, blocks, and long stealth is having high sustain for a spec that can be played almsot completely from 900 range. 

Nobody likes playing against it, other specs were nerfed while being much weaker. Nades have always been a problem, almost every other patch there's an engi spec abusing it.

I don't tink Anet would change anything about the mechanics of grenade kit, like the shooting backwards thing. Hopefuly its damage will be adjusted by -20% at least. I don't think anything else should be changed about scrapper/engi as a whole. 

The grenades seem to be aimed skill shot skill, which on paper should hit hard but also has really big chance to miss, the problem is that they never miss by using snap to target menu option also the over the shoulder thing. The funny thing is that Anet has the tech to make it not be thrown over the shoulder and instead turn the character around, you have this on Warrior Axe 3 Throw Axe.
So you have a supposedly Skill based skill that can have its actual effort circumvented by a tick box and it becomes another spammy lock on ranged attack, the thing is that those lock on skills need you to be facing your opponent to be even cast and usually do not do that much on their own. 

[miriforst.1290]

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The grenades seem to be aimed skill shot skill, which on paper should hit hard but also has really big chance to miss, the problem is that they never miss by using snap to target menu option also the over the shoulder thing. The funny thing is that Anet has the tech to make it not be thrown over the shoulder and instead turn the character around, you have this on Warrior Axe 3 Throw Axe.
So you have a supposedly Skill based skill that can have its actual effort circumvented by a tick box and it becomes another spammy lock on ranged attack, the thing is that those lock on skills need you to be facing your opponent to be even cast and usually do not do that much on their own. 

 

This works on short ranges, but as far as i know, if your enemy kits you leading your grenades is required to make good use out of them, which drastically increases the skill ceiling. That said, i am not much of a grenadier trait user either which might be the problem here then? Also mind the spread.

[apharma.3741]

3 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The grenades seem to be aimed skill shot skill, which on paper should hit hard but also has really big chance to miss, the problem is that they never miss by using snap to target menu option also the over the shoulder thing. The funny thing is that Anet has the tech to make it not be thrown over the shoulder and instead turn the character around, you have this on Warrior Axe 3 Throw Axe.
So you have a supposedly Skill based skill that can have its actual effort circumvented by a tick box and it becomes another spammy lock on ranged attack, the thing is that those lock on skills need you to be facing your opponent to be even cast and usually do not do that much on their own. 

Hot (like an ice cube) take but snap to target should never be a thing in competitive game modes. You see this all the time with necro wells, marks and any other AoE thata dodge doesn't take you out of, you will always get hit with it and the other person is barely playing the game.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

10 hours ago, roederich.2716 said:

thats why 7/10 of top 10 players are currently on scrapper…

its the new catalyst

It's nothing as effective as Catalyst. Remember that the MAT winning teams were running triple Ele, not triple Engi. In fact, there were no Engis at all in those comps.

What we have going on here with Scrapper isn't that it's the new Catalyst, it's that it is the new Rifle Mech. It is another ridiculously easy to play build structure that like Rifle Mech, is another noob stomper build that exploits l2p issues. It is very strong in environments like Ranked when it can target & farm low tiered players who have l2p issues but it sucks vs. higher tiered players who understand to simply bait out the front loaded burst and then turn on it and kill it when it has no defenses and all offensive pressure on CDs. it is exactly like Rifle Mech in higher tiered play, where it becomes a complete liability in a team because it can't survive focus. Even when it has a Support on it, it still pops and dies like a Deadeye when caught by focus. <- This is a problem that Engi in general seems to have right now. It is this fact, that keeps Tool Holo out of the meta, being too prone to focus.

You guys need to better describe these issues when discussing in the forum. For example: I would say that Scrapper is not OP at all when we are talking higher tiered organized play like the final rounds of ATs. However, it is currently the #1 noob farmer build in the game, which makes it very strong in mixed Ranked queues. Current Scrapper simply farms noob much faster than any other build structure can do. So in a certain regard, "Scrapper is OP" but only in the situation of mixed queues when it has noob to target.

[shion.2084]

I will point out that if you remove the ranged option of nades from engi, the original post to this thread was the scrapper stealth bomber.  That can be accomplished just as well with toolkit.  You won't have done a thing to address the original QQ

[bethekey.8314]

On 3/8/2023 at 6:22 PM, Pati.2438 said:

the problem ist the spamable path of granades than Just them selfes. Yes you can of course dodge the burst once or twice but a engi with superspeed chasing around with granades dealing actually pretty hard dmg for Just spam Buttons and on range is a Bit silly. Specialy If you are a class that is Just full melee. Its Like they running away from ya and you can't do kitten. This should Not be a thing! Also the fact they could also 100% to 0% a whole group in seconds does Not make it any better

Ok, prevent grenades from being used from behind, but buff their damage. Sounds good to me.

Surely people won't complain anymore.

[bethekey.8314]

7 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The grenades seem to be aimed skill shot skill, which on paper should hit hard but also has really big chance to miss, the problem is that they never miss by using snap to target menu option also the over the shoulder thing. The funny thing is that Anet has the tech to make it not be thrown over the shoulder and instead turn the character around, you have this on Warrior Axe 3 Throw Axe.
So you have a supposedly Skill based skill that can have its actual effort circumvented by a tick box and it becomes another spammy lock on ranged attack, the thing is that those lock on skills need you to be facing your opponent to be even cast and usually do not do that much on their own. 

Have you ever tried the snap to target feature with grenades? It takes all of 5 minutes on a moving target to see that it's not some perfecting auto targeting system. I miss more grenades with snap to target than without.

The best option is instant cast on mouse, which still requires you to aim, but can be retargeted mid-flight. This also allows you to use elixirs and keep targets without having to bind "turn off snap to target".

[bethekey.8314]

14 hours ago, roederich.2716 said:

„Scrapper is not busted“. Yayaya thats why 7/10 of top 10 players are currently on scrapper…

its the new catalyst and the game is not getting better if constantly utter like this occurs.

everyone defending it is probably currently abusing it themselves.

good job!

The new catalyst is still catalyst... @Trevor Boyer.6524 is right that the scrapper spec is a noob stomper. And most of the players you encounter in queue are noobs.

[Vancho.8750]

31 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Have you ever tried the snap to target feature with grenades? It takes all of 5 minutes on a moving target to see that it's not some perfecting auto targeting system. I miss more grenades with snap to target than without.

The best option is instant cast on mouse, which still requires you to aim, but can be retargeted mid-flight. This also allows you to use elixirs and keep targets without having to bind "turn off snap to target".

Pretty sure its quite worth it to bind it just for over the shoulder nades while running away, also it engi is probably one the few professions that can make perfect use of the snap to target feature, most of the other professions don't have short cast time skill that can land close to the target that you can spam. The issue is mostly that its free damage in a game where most of the professions have to jump throw hoops to do some damage, if the TTK on the builds wasn't that slow while dishing glass cannon damage I don't think people would talk about it. 
To your point about catalyst, the builds kinda work the same suppers speed, blocks, invulns, blinds free damage over the shoulder kitten, its just that catalyst has more. Mostly it is not engi thing or nades or mortar kit or whatever it is just game design overall, and what the devs consider fair, I personally think that allot of tack ons over the years are kitten and they kinda ruin the game, and we are back to play like 3 things again. 
Allot of the "balance" is based on tournaments and what the "pros" play, so they returned tools and nades from the past instead of actually trying to set some identity to the specs, we get recycled cheese builds even though it was agreed it was kinda dumb way before. So we have one shot build but it is kinda one, cause we nerfed the other ones, we have bruiser that deals high amount of damage on supper speed with multiple damage mitigation skills ou and it also drops AOE nukes cause why not, but the other professions have to be balanced to the old way.  

[Kuma.1503]

Been gone for a while. 

Aparently Scrappers are playing meme one shot builds now...

I said it pre Feb 2020 when Prime Light beam one shot from stealth

I said it when Core Mes could one shot from stealth

I said it when Backstab could still one shot from stealth. 

 

Stealth should reveal on cast. Period. No more stacking might/fury in steath. No more casting heal skills in stealth. No more whiffing stealth attacks into dodges and not getting punished for it. No more hiding Telegraphs in stealth. 

This comes up time and time again. Just rip off the band-aid, and toss some love to thief because this indirectly nerfs them the hardest. 

 

... In any case, Scrapper never sticks around in the meta for long. I'll be genuinely surprised if it's not slapped back into the gutter by the time I return to the game in a month. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Myror.7521]

@Kuma.1503 would be interesting to see them hard Nerf nades and actually gain those class Overall some Love. Buuut i think they will Go the easy way. Let granades as they are and Nerf superspeed instead. This would punish every Single engi spec ..... Yay?

[Vancho.8750]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Been gone for a while. 

Aparently Scrappers are playing meme one shot builds now...

I said it pre Feb 2020 when Prime Light beam one shot from stealth

I said it when Core Mes could one shot from stealth

I said it when Backstab could still one shot from stealth. 

 

Stealth should reveal on cast. Period. No more stacking might/fury in steath. No more casting heal skills in stealth. No more whiffing stealth attacks into dodges and not getting punished for it. No more hiding Telegraphs in stealth. 

This comes up time and time again. Just rip off the band-aid, and toss some love to thief because this indirectly nerfs them the hardest. 

 

... In any case, Scrapper never sticks around in the meta for long. I'll be genuinely surprised if it's not slapped back into the gutter by the time I return to the game in a month. 

The issue on scrapper is that it does not have identity, it has skill effects and traits that get strong and drop of hard after some changes, but it is mostly core +, I think they should have switched the toolbelt with the gyros and work from there.
It is weird that arenanet can't even make something out of Holo since it does have clear cut identity, but it is always something HOLO. Tools, nades or whatever that is the main thing and not HOLO, it is always the traits and multipliers. 
Good example for clear cut Identity is Reaper, it is not some weapon that is the main thing, you can play it with whatever and what makes the Reaper is the shroud.

[apharma.3741]

2 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

The new catalyst is still catalyst... @Trevor Boyer.6524 is right that the scrapper spec is a noob stomper. And most of the players you encounter in queue are noobs.

He's right if by right you mean wrong, it's a good spec that can stack lots of might and has perma superspeed. Good players aren't using stealth one shot (because it doesn't work on good players 😮 ) they're using it's high mobility, damage and general kit to good effect. It's no more of a noob stomper than a noob running into spellbreaker.
Are you likely to see it in the mAT? Probably not because catalyst is stronger but then you're not likely to see many other classes for this reason too.

[bethekey.8314]

21 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

It's no more of a noob stomper than a noob running into spellbreaker.

This seems to be the only point we disagree on. A typical burst scrapper's "time it takes to kill an enemy" is significantly shorter than spellbreaker's. That makes it more of a noob stomper because games are about who farms kills fastest.

Oh, also, Spellbreaker was actually used to good effect in tournaments recently.

Edited March 10, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Pretty sure its quite worth it to bind it just for over the shoulder nades while running away, also it engi is probably one the few professions that can make perfect use of the snap to target feature

Yes, most classes don't have to actually aim their abilities, which is why snap to target is talked about primarily with Engis.

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

most of the other professions don't have short cast time skill that can land close to the target that you can spam. The issue is mostly that its free damage in a game where most of the professions have to jump throw hoops to do some damage,

Do not understand what you're saying here. Every class has roughly similar CDs, spammable auto attacks, skills that must land near the target to hit. Free damage and jumping through hoops? I'll repost what I said earlier:

Also, regardless of the damage numbers, wouldn't you agree that a projectile (fully countered by reflects), slow (has flight time), ground targeted, traited (trait essentially required to make nades functional), pure damage (poor utility) skill should have high damage? Not many skills have such high requirements to hit. Grenades are also bugged so blind works extra well vs them.

Grenades have more hoops to jump through than most skills in the game.

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Allot of the "balance" is based on tournaments and what the "pros" play, so they returned tools and nades from the past instead of actually trying to set some identity to the specs, we get recycled cheese builds even though it was agreed it was kinda dumb way before. So we have one shot build but it is kinda one, cause we nerfed the other ones, we have bruiser that deals high amount of damage on supper speed with multiple damage mitigation skills ou and it also drops AOE nukes cause why not, but the other professions have to be balanced to the old way.  

This is incoherent. Returned tools and nades from the past? Who agreed? So we have one shot build but it is kinda one? Balanced to the old way?

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Pretty sure its quite worth it to bind it just for over the shoulder nades while running away

I would love to test it out with you, and record. I want to see you use snap to target, at range (because then there's no advantage to melee cleave), and see how many grenades you hit on me strafing.

[bethekey.8314]

11 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

the problem is that they never miss by using snap to target menu option

 

28 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I would love to test it out with you, and record. I want to see you use snap to target, at range (because then there's no advantage to melee cleave), and see how many grenades you hit on me strafing.

Just went ahead and did it myself. Point proven, hopefully. Too many people have misconceptions about grenade targeting and the ability to avoid them.

Edited March 10, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[apharma.3741]

36 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

This seems to be the only point we disagree on. A typical burst scrapper's "time it takes to kill an enemy" is significantly shorter than spellbreaker's. That makes it more of a noob stomper because games are about who farms kills fastest.

Oh, also, Spellbreaker was actually used to good effect in tournaments recently.

Yes the scrapper will kill the noobs fast and rotate, the spellbreaker just fights 3 of them at far all game and never dies. They farm noobs in different ways due to their roles. Scrapper is no better or worse than spellbreaker and I'm not thinking of the one shot build either.

[Khalisto.5780]

Tempest 

 

Fire 123

Earth 213

Tempest 323

Rabid orr

 

Camp earth, the fullbrust willtake like 40% your help spam 1 2 and earth overload, fire signet is a good addition.

 

Now scrapper isnt a threat to you anymore, you can face tank it but it cant face tank you

 

Gg

Edited March 10, 2023 by Khalisto.5780

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Yes the scrapper will kill the noobs fast and rotate, the spellbreaker just fights 3 of them at far all game and never dies. They farm noobs in different ways due to their roles. Scrapper is no better or worse than spellbreaker and I'm not thinking of the one shot build either.

It's like you biasedly tunnel vision arguments based on the sole principle of: "Trev said it so I have to argue against it."

Scrapper is very clearly generating downstates a lot faster than Spellbreaker due to the "come out of stealth with nuclear AoE CC damage pit gimmick". I've seen mediocre players on Scrapper sneak into the middle of a node and pop kill 3 players at once with this gimmick. New players just don't react fast enough to properly counter play, if they react at all. Since winning ranked games lately is all about who can farm the other team's bads faster, this strangely puts Scrapper in the position if being #1 noob farming mixed queue king right now.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Kuma.1503]

10 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Hot (like an ice cube) take but snap to target should never be a thing in competitive game modes. You see this all the time with necro wells, marks and any other AoE thata dodge doesn't take you out of, you will always get hit with it and the other person is barely playing the game.

Snap target is a trap on engi. 

You end up missing 2/3 or more of your damage against moving targets. Snap target + Grenadier sounds good in theory, but it's better to learn how to lead targets and control your camera. The extra effort rewards you with over double the damage. 

Don't even think of relying on it with mortars. 

[Crab Fear.8623]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's like you biasedly tunnel vision arguments based on the sole principle of: "Trev said it so I have to argue against it."

Scrapper is very clearly generating downstates a lot faster than Spellbreaker due to the "come out of stealth with nuclear AoE CC damage pit gimmick". I've seen mediocre players on Scrapper sneak into the middle of a node and pop kill 3 players at once with this gimmick. New players just don't react fast enough to properly counter play, if they react at all. Since winning ranked games lately is all about who can farm the other team's bads faster, this strangely puts Scrapper in the position if being #1 noob farming mixed queue king right now.

And, since noobs are mixed into higher tier games, playing a noob farming build is a great strat.

 

[Kuma.1503]

Since they're unlikely to change stealth. I've come up with an easy Solution that should put an end to this Scrapper problem. 

Roll the WvW sneak gyro nerf into PvP. 

Much less stealth duration, and it displays a visual effect on activation. No more surprise one shotting the newbies. If they don't see the visual, that's their fault. 

The Scrappers should go back to using Mortar kit and contributing less than a Tools Holo with a similar build. Problem solved. 

 

[Bunbury.8472]

4 hours ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

And, since noobs are mixed into higher tier games, playing a noob farming build is a great strat.

 

new accounts start with 1200 rating kekw. too true