Meta Incredibly not fun - Scrapper,Tempest,Virt,SPB,Cata Annoying & OP

[Shao.7236]

16 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

This is funny coming from the rev player who wanted the casting stability on inspiring reinforcements to be increased until the pulsing stab from the road begun, providing absolutely no counterplay to the skill whatsoever. Not that it has much to begin with.
You DO NOT want continuum split on a lower cool down, it will cause an unending number of problems for the game. It would basically double up on everything much quicker, so the moment a skill becomes useful on its own, chrono will abuse it. Remember what CMC was saying about difficulty balancing around having a trait that reduces a cool down by 20%? Yeah, well, continuum split is far worse than that.
ANet will not "compensate" or undo vigor nerfs, if they were, they'd have done it already because mirage has been destroyed in the competitive scene since getting 1 dodge. That was a very long time ago.
Getting hit by a skill that at minimum is 0.5s cast time AND has an animation cast time on it AND has travel time AND is telegraphed for the whole activation is a skill issue. Remember decapitate? Warrior has even more tools to set that up, and every competent person regards being hit by decapitate repeatedly as a marker of a low skill player.

Bruh trying to argue what? That's like giving Stability to FC half a second after it's being casted. You don't understand it at all and if you think Stability on IR is equal to the other in game, you are so so so mistaken and should look up how buff and debuff priorities work. It's the weakest in the game and punishing players for using a skill properly is not how you make the game better.

It wouldn't be an issue for Chrono to have a lower Continuum Split because it's a sustain skill as much as it is for the oppressive pressure it can do if you take away Distortion. Everyone talks like that's what they did before while that's totally wrong, they merged in Distortion with the same long useless cooldown along Continuum which made it impossible to rotate any sustain for any builds, as it is the skill is only used to spam the same burst and never for sustain tactics which would be if the CD wasn't so bad.

All your premises are based on "they won't do it because y x" sets contradiction instantly because you're not compensating for the suggested changes to begin with. They don't have to change vigor because distortion still exists, just connect the dots already, Distortion is literally the second dodge on a 50 cd for Mirage right now.

The "only bad players get hit" excuse is not even close to ever be valid, this ain't dark souls and people can't always dodge that specific thing forever. The real skill issue is not managing to get to that point and that's very common nowadays with all the random begging for changes.

 

[Vancho.8750]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

That's if you purely think of stealth as invisibility thematically. Which is not all there is to it.

For example, why are smoke combo fields granting stealth? It's not supposed to represent that smoke can literally turn you invisible. The thematical explanation for it is that you are using the smoke to hide your movement. The smoke is blocking the vision and people can't see what is going on inside of the smoke.

Engineer can fit as a major user of stealth with that theme, imo. Engineer should be THE class to make use of smoke as cover (next to thief). And it doesn't clash with engineer using big explosions and what not, since these are also used to create the smoke cover in the first place.

That makes sense but only if the stealth is in the area of the smoke field, and then the smoke field should blind everyone including you and your people . I'm speaking about the RP side of the skills with the thematic.

I don't think they can make it on technical level since it gets overcomplex but it should have some kind of difference between the professions, since we end up with the game turned up on its head, currently the best stealth assassin is bomb scrapper, thief is not even close using stealth to kill people, for long time everything was better in melee than a warrior, at some point thief was the best necro shroud build and so on. 

[miriforst.1290]

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

That makes sense but only if the stealth is in the area of the smoke field, and then the smoke field should blind everyone including you and your people . I'm speaking about the RP side of the skills with the thematic.

I don't think they can make it on technical level since it gets overcomplex but it should have some kind of difference between the professions, since we end up with the game turned up on its head, currently the best stealth assassin is bomb scrapper, thief is not even close using stealth to kill people, for long time everything was better in melee than a warrior, at some point thief was the best necro shroud build and so on. 

This brings up an interesting question. 

What is the engineer supposed to do.

If you asked someone outside of gw2 what they expect from an engineer class they would probably answer Turrets, robots and explosions or something to that effect.

And i don't believe anyone here wants engineer turrets or mechanist to be a viable build up to tournament level. 

I have no answer to this question as the engineer has always had the feeling of picking bits and pieces from other classes, heck elixirs was founded on that idea and we still have an elite that grants us a random elite from other classes. This is the same skill type that has enabled 100nades builds since before heart of thorns by the way thanks to elixir S (that and the double(!) barrage we gained from kitswap).

If we keep focusing on what a class shouldn't do we also need to consider the opposite every once in a while.

This is also a problem with the elementalist to some extent but at least designwise it is clear that the consequence would be something close to "celestial stats incarnate" with its thematic elements.

Edited March 12, 2023 by miriforst.1290

[viquing.8254]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

It wouldn't be an issue for Chrono to have a lower Continuum Split because it's a sustain skill as much as it is for the oppressive pressure it can do if you take away Distortion.

CS split isn't a sustain skill, it's mainly a double skills. If you reduce the CD all skills who are balanced to be used on their original CD who were already nerfed when CS first came out will have to be overnerfed, which impact all mesmers specs. Mean take time wrap, you can't balance it. It will be useless on every spec apart chrono or it will be OP on chrono because it can double it.

 

Quote

The "only bad players get hit" excuse is not even close to ever be valid, this ain't dark souls and people can't always dodge that specific thing forever. The real skill issue is not managing to get to that point and that's very common nowadays with all the random begging for changes.

If you get it by virtuoso 1.25 sec total animation Fx you will be obliterate 3 times fatser by other classes. So yeah it's an excuse. What's the matter having damage if it never hit.

Edited March 12, 2023 by viquing.8254

[Vancho.8750]

1 hour ago, miriforst.1290 said:

This brings up an interesting question. 

What is the engineer supposed to do.

If you asked someone outside of gw2 what they expect from an engineer class they would probably answer Turrets, robots and explosions or something to that effect.

And i don't believe anyone here wants engineer turrets or mechanist to be a viable build up to tournament level. 

I have no answer to this question as the engineer has always had the feeling of picking bits and pieces from other classes, heck elixirs was founded on that idea and we still have an elite that grants us a random elite from other classes. This is the same skill type that has enabled 100nades builds since before heart of thorns by the way thanks to elixir S (that and the double(!) barrage we gained from kitswap).

If we keep focusing on what a class shouldn't do we also need to consider the opposite every once in a while.

This is also a problem with the elementalist to some extent but at least designwise it is clear that the consequence would be something close to "celestial stats incarnate" with its thematic elements.

I think I posted something like that in the engi thread.

  

On 3/10/2023 at 11:17 PM, Vancho.8750 said:

The issue on scrapper is that it does not have identity, it has skill effects and traits that get strong and drop of hard after some changes, but it is mostly core +, I think they should have switched the toolbelt with the gyros and work from there.
It is weird that arenanet can't even make something out of Holo since it does have clear cut identity, but it is always something HOLO. Tools, nades or whatever that is the main thing and not HOLO, it is always the traits and multipliers. 
Good example for clear cut Identity is Reaper, it is not some weapon that is the main thing, you can play it with whatever and what makes the Reaper is the shroud.

 

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 hours ago, miriforst.1290 said:

This brings up an interesting question. 

What is the engineer supposed to do.

If you asked someone outside of gw2 what they expect from an engineer class they would probably answer Turrets, robots and explosions or something to that effect.

And i don't believe anyone here wants engineer turrets or mechanist to be a viable build up to tournament level. 

I have no answer to this question as the engineer has always had the feeling of picking bits and pieces from other classes, heck elixirs was founded on that idea and we still have an elite that grants us a random elite from other classes. This is the same skill type that has enabled 100nades builds since before heart of thorns by the way thanks to elixir S (that and the double(!) barrage we gained from kitswap).

If we keep focusing on what a class shouldn't do we also need to consider the opposite every once in a while.

This is also a problem with the elementalist to some extent but at least designwise it is clear that the consequence would be something close to "celestial stats incarnate" with its thematic elements.

If we derive from D&D again, as this and many other games do (along with Mario and Zelda for guild wars 2 specifically), then we can look at the design of artificer.

Artificer has a few different subclasses that take it into different directions but its core is basically utility and support. It is armored but not good with weapons. It replicates some spells, mostly supportive and utility, from other spellcasters using tools that still mechanically uses spell slots. So even in that game its "engineer" copies stuff from other classes.

Then you have the subclasses:

Alchemist uses elixirs and is essentially a condition damage/healer hybrid.

Artillerist is essentially a turrets engineer..

Armorer is essentially a scrapper with the options of being a tanky bruiser or a fast glass... gun without the ability to do both at any one time but with the option to switch in between as necessary.

Battlesmith is essentially a holosmith/mechanist hybrid with being good with weapons and having the highest damage output of artificers with the support of a mechanical bodyguard that deals damage and protects the artificer from harm.

Overall engineer is pretty close to d&d's artificers.

The only thing that they do differently because d&d designers aren't crazy enough to do that is that while artificers can go invisible, they can't blow up enemies in out of their "free" attack especially since its hard for them to sneak up on enemies even while invisible because they still make noise, footprints, shimmer the atmosphere around them, etc that gives their position away but makes them difficult to aim at precisely. Because d&d would never make invisibility as powerful as guild wars 2 does. Additionally artificers don't have the capability of setting up massive damage bursts as regardless of their subclass, their core is utility and support. They create tools for the job necessary at hand. They won't do it nearly as well as the specialized spellcaster but they'll get that job done and every other job that specialized spellcaster can't.

[apharma.3741]

6 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Bruh trying to argue what? That's like giving Stability to FC half a second after it's being casted. You don't understand it at all and if you think Stability on IR is equal to the other in game, you are so so so mistaken and should look up how buff and debuff priorities work. It's the weakest in the game and punishing players for using a skill properly is not how you make the game better.

It wouldn't be an issue for Chrono to have a lower Continuum Split because it's a sustain skill as much as it is for the oppressive pressure it can do if you take away Distortion. Everyone talks like that's what they did before while that's totally wrong, they merged in Distortion with the same long useless cooldown along Continuum which made it impossible to rotate any sustain for any builds, as it is the skill is only used to spam the same burst and never for sustain tactics which would be if the CD wasn't so bad.

All your premises are based on "they won't do it because y x" sets contradiction instantly because you're not compensating for the suggested changes to begin with. They don't have to change vigor because distortion still exists, just connect the dots already, Distortion is literally the second dodge on a 50 cd for Mirage right now.

The "only bad players get hit" excuse is not even close to ever be valid, this ain't dark souls and people can't always dodge that specific thing forever. The real skill issue is not managing to get to that point and that's very common nowadays with all the random begging for changes.

 

My point was that you're contradictory, you say people can't accept counterplay when you advocate for removing any possibility of counterplay from your own class.

That you're even calling continuum split a sustain skill shows your complete lack of game knowledge. It's not sustain, it lets you recast everything, but more importantly it resets your health. If you got healed while in continuum split, tough luck my dude, you're getting reset. Continuum split has been the cause of so many nerfs to mesmer it's insane, and you're advocating to increase this? This is what happens when other class mains who never touch mesmer think they know anything about the class, and precisely the reason the class is a mess right not.
My premise isn't because x, y. My premise is they've literally done nothing to help mirage out competitively at all since removing its 1 dodge, and it's entirely fallen out of viability. If they were ever going to do something, shouldn't they have done it in the 2 years since they removed 1 dodge?
Only bad players get hit consistently by certain skills with high telegraphs, cast times and visual tells. Do you get hit by decapitate sometimes? Sure. Do you get hit by it every time? Not if you're a good player.

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:08 AM, Shao.7236 said:

People are conditioned to think they need Distortion. It should just be unique to core like proper game design would intend a side grade be.

Chronomancers can be extremely oppressive with the ability to reset their state and that can also be used as sustain, if there's a need for more sustain. You have shield.

Mirage without distortion means hello second evade and something more entertaining for F4, anything but more i-frames when you can dodge while stunned.

Virtuoso is constantly set back as horrible yet they have so many options and don't rely on RNG of clones anymore. Calling it bad feels criminal. Having the ability to be more consistently on the offensive is a perfect justification for having blocks rather than i-frames.

If people can play core in a legitimate way, it proves that Distortion is not needed on the other elites because otherwise you're just doing Core with cool new spells which is not good for anyone. Proof being the constant builds with too much stalling over blocks and invuls.

Virtuoso is consistently kitten at the offense.
as long as you can side-step F2, the class will never be viable.
I dont think anyone really cares about disort on mesmer, but if you want to remove it class would need to be compensated elsewhere, and god forbid mesmer could heal itself as much as other classes while still being usefull, people would lose their kitten.
But as always, its easy to see a problem, its much harder to offer a solution, typical remove X from kitten class because its annoying, what can go wrong.
Also for better or for worse, cont split shouldnt exist as a skill in pvp game, same thing as cata elite, those skills are fundamentally broken and cant be allowed to exist.

[Leonidrex.5649]

3 hours ago, viquing.8254 said:

CS split isn't a sustain skill, it's mainly a double skills. If you reduce the CD all skills who are balanced to be used on their original CD who were already nerfed when CS first came out will have to be overnerfed, which impact all mesmers specs. Mean take time wrap, you can't balance it. It will be useless on every spec apart chrono or it will be OP on chrono because it can double it.

 

If you get it by virtuoso 1.25 sec total animation Fx you will be obliterate 3 times fatser by other classes. So yeah it's an excuse. What's the matter having damage if it never hit.

Chrono in general makes kitten hard to balance for mesmer, even phantasm trait guarantees all phantasms must remain trash tier.
When was the last time phantasmal defender/disenchanter was actually used in pvp?
I think I havent seen a single one in the last 4 years.
doubling/quadrupling same skills other spec use will be a balance issue, always.
Chrono always stomps people or gets stomped, and I find it annoying as kitten.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

My point was that you're contradictory, you say people can't accept counterplay when you advocate for removing any possibility of counterplay from your own class.

That you're even calling continuum split a sustain skill shows your complete lack of game knowledge. It's not sustain, it lets you recast everything, but more importantly it resets your health. If you got healed while in continuum split, tough luck my dude, you're getting reset. Continuum split has been the cause of so many nerfs to mesmer it's insane, and you're advocating to increase this? This is what happens when other class mains who never touch mesmer think they know anything about the class, and precisely the reason the class is a mess right not.
My premise isn't because x, y. My premise is they've literally done nothing to help mirage out competitively at all since removing its 1 dodge, and it's entirely fallen out of viability. If they were ever going to do something, shouldn't they have done it in the 2 years since they removed 1 dodge?
Only bad players get hit consistently by certain skills with high telegraphs, cast times and visual tells. Do you get hit by decapitate sometimes? Sure. Do you get hit by it every time? Not if you're a good player.

dont forget csplit keeps your conditions, and chrono builds have 0 cleanse, always fun 😄
 or the fact csplit can be killed by 1-2 skills from most power builds

[Dr Meta.3158]

Continuum Split was one of those ideas that were really cool but should had stayed just an idea.

[Leonidrex.5649]

21 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Continuum Split was one of those ideas that were really cool but should had stayed just an idea.

its a really cool and fun idea, for pve.
its actually hella fun to do csplit combos, again in pve. where bosses dont get frustrated with it

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

My point was that you're contradictory, you say people can't accept counterplay when you advocate for removing any possibility of counterplay from your own class.

It's not counterplay to destroy a skill into an RNG uselessness. As a classic Anet move of overdoing it and unable to truly comprehend how it really works.

Taking away the ability to have 2 stacks of stability and increasing the CD already added more counterplayer and value to use the skill religiously, making it so that after using the skill to counter CC and still get CC in a 1 second window that is literally impossible to play around defeats the entire purpose of timing it because you punish the player for using it in a window that is a second too soon against some CC's that are super delayed or janky with lag such as bullscharge having people get right up against you just to delay and teleport back then hit you after the stutter from interpolation.

As pulsing Stability it's the very first thing to that gets removed and there's dozens way to blast through 1 stack of Stability for anyone, pulsing 1 stack at a time will only punish those that can't stop themselves from realizing they should just back off and wait if out because it's an AoE and even then some setups can just entirely ignore the skill with a simple weapon some to CC with sigils.

For real, people have the ability to CC through it in downstate because of sigils because of first in first out and with all that counter play that was already available to the deeper level, the surface level has been drastically increased by making pulses at one second, for you to say that it's ok to use a skill and it have no effects because the devs are too lazy to figure out their mistakes when they overdo it in certain areas is the part where you get it totally wrong and trying to frame me as an hypocrite when the facts are valid.

You can be thankful that I said out loud everywhere that Infuse Light should be 2 instead of 3 seconds because Heralds would easily be a tier above in sustain compared to now. Despite everyone calling me a hater for class when it was 100% the right move amongst other things and that's only one of them that adds to the credibility over the other changes that makes this class more balanced than the stupid crap out there.

Reminder that I want my single evade back on Vindicator but of course you're not going to mention that will you?

2 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

That you're even calling continuum split a sustain skill shows your complete lack of game knowledge. It's not sustain, it lets you recast everything, but more importantly it resets your health.

Soooooooo.. You're telling me that's not sustain? Clearly Chronomancer can burst from full health at no risk other than getting sent back for risking too much then reburst again while not having to suffer from the damage. Literally can be used like it's Distortion except it's high risk high reward with a considerable skill ceiling for how far complex the process can be stretched?

People are ok with having Continuum Split on a super high CD and get Distortion rather than a reasonable CD or if not exactly the same as default Distortion CD while giving up on it. To me that sounds like the profession is conditioning it's players to think they are just playing Mesmer with extra buttons and they absolutely need Distortion otherwise their idea of playing with Mesmer just falls apart somehow.

FR you have the possibility revert damage and you say that's not sustain. On top of that there's the possibility of big big brain moves as Mesmer because so many short if not instant casts, are you really that out of touch with any of the creative potential?

Continuum Split is legit able to do so many things as one skill, from being a mega tank to mega damage or even both. Why in the world would you want to give that up for just having Distortion and not have the actual cool elite mechanic just do more than occasional backseat gaming.

This is one thing that's super wrong with Mesmer in general and prevents me from ever wanting to touch it.

I don't think I have to get started on Mirage or Virtuoso on why keeping Distortion is a terrible idea while there's so much more potential to be had by just ditching that specific skill to improve in other areas.

I had the ability to do anything with the balance right now it would to either give Mesmer the right treatment with all of it's elite to be complex enough and unique or fix how neglected and useless Resistance is against conditions side effects.

[Dr Meta.3158]

15 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

its a really cool and fun idea, for pve.
its actually hella fun to do csplit combos, again in pve. where bosses dont get frustrated with it

Even in pve the cooldown is ridiculous to where its just a once in a while thing instead of an ongoing active part of your class like ambushes or changing up your core features like virtuoso.

Also Chronomancer was supposed to be a support spec but its main use is burst combos then win or die.

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

dont forget csplit keeps your conditions, and chrono builds have 0 cleanse, always fun 😄
 or the fact csplit can be killed by 1-2 skills from most power builds

Ah if only you could use CS more often with a low CD to mitigate those conditions prior to having them rather than have Distortion randomly shoved in because clearly there's nothing to be creative with.

You could easily turn Chronomancer into condi bomb by baiting conditions and transfering them back twice with Arcane Thievery but I must be the only one who thinks of ever having such kind of cleverly put fun am I?

Seriously it's like nobody wants out of their comfort zones and the game just dies with it.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Shao.7236

[viquing.8254]

@Shao.7236 As long as CS reset all CD you can't have it on a lower coldown. Either all no-chrono mesmer's skills will be useless when not in chrono, either chrono will be OP. There is no middle.

Tips : there is a reason, people don't use arcane thievery anymore.

It's not about going out of confort zone, it's about someone who want to destroy a class to easy rollface ingame. CS and chronophantasma should never exist in the first place looking at balance history.

The only way to have CS on a shorter CD while not detroying everything would be if it didn't reset skills anymore.

 

Quote

prevents me from ever wanting to touch it.

Maybe start playing it before doing papercraft based on what you want to easy rollface.

And just to be clear : the main purpose of CS is doubling skills. the health reset is a side effect with many flaws (you know when and where you can burst back the mes which every good player can used to instant burst the mes.).

Edited March 12, 2023 by viquing.8254

[Leonidrex.5649]

3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Ah if only you could use CS more often with a low CD to mitigate those conditions prior to having them rather than have Distortion randomly shoved in because clearly there's nothing to be creative with.

You could easily turn Chronomancer into condi bomb by baiting conditions and transfering them back twice with Arcane Thievery but I must be the only one who thinks of ever having such kind of cleverly put fun am I?

Seriously it's like nobody wants out of their comfort zones and the game just dies with it.

or maybe you are not the only one, and it simply does not work lol.
AT can be dodged, if its dodged conditions stay and you die.
or maybe it just bugs and you die anyways, god bless ANET.
There is a reason why nobody uses AT since the change, devs actively turn the class into kitten.

[Vancho.8750]

4 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

its a really cool and fun idea, for pve.
its actually hella fun to do csplit combos, again in pve. where bosses dont get frustrated with it

It was so fun they gave most of the skill of chrono to the EOD specs, kinda wish they didn't though, eles double D tooth double obsidian, harbinger  gravity well on kittening shroud, thief gravity well with teleport.
@viquing.8254I think the reset could work if it is kinda isolated the way they did it for Bladesworn, making the reset intentional part of chrono instead of press button spam abilities. @Dr Meta.3158 is right that Chrono should have been a support instead of whatever it is now. 
If we are allowed to dream up cool identity and mechanics, I would have made chrono something like a pet class but the pet is a hard clone of "past" you or something like that  and you can switch places health and what not with the clone, something like Meepo from Dota 2.
It is kinda strange that mesmer has kinda the same thing over and over across the specs, when RP themes that you can pull off are really broad.

[Dr Meta.3158]

46 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

It was so fun they gave most of the skill of chrono to the EOD specs, kinda wish they didn't though, eles double D tooth double obsidian, harbinger  gravity well on kittening shroud, thief gravity well with teleport.
@viquing.8254I think the reset could work if it is kinda isolated the way they did it for Bladesworn, making the reset intentional part of chrono instead of press button spam abilities. @Dr Meta.3158 is right that Chrono should have been a support instead of whatever it is now. 
If we are allowed to dream up cool identity and mechanics, I would have made chrono something like a pet class but the pet is a hard clone of "past" you or something like that  and you can switch places health and what not with the clone, something like Meepo from Dota 2.
It is kinda strange that mesmer has kinda the same thing over and over across the specs, when RP themes that you can pull off are really broad.

Mesmer is basically a d&d college of creation bard that hard focuses on illusion magic.

Bards are not by any means damage dealers. Even their damage dealing oriented subclasses are not good at it. Bards are first and foremost supportive crowd controllers and they crowd control by disorienting, obsfucating, and confusing. Which mesmer has all the tools for.

But like chronomancer, scourge, druid, scrapper, herald, specter, and tempest for a time, the tools and the intention for supportive play was all baked into the class, its just that being a damage dealer with gross, unfun mechanics backing it up was the better alternative and no corrections were made to remedy that with the exception of tempest. Tempest still being an absurd damage dealer thats difficult to counterpressure if built correctly.

For mesmer specifically and as a general design overall, I would never have instant case damage skills reach a high level. They need to do to shatters what they did to necromancer proc on shroud entry traits. They attempted this with virtuoso but the implementation is too clunky. Realistically I think mirage partially got it right in so far as the main objective should be to utilize clones as offensive and defensive means with shatters being emergency defenses. Clones should be the focal point to build around by means of dealing damage or supporting, while shatters are your "oh kitten" skills and the way to best mesmer is to pressure them through their shatters rather than mesmers setting up instant cast combos on you out of stealth, while moa'd (also a terribly designed skill), while invulnerable, or otherwise any other anticounterplay mechanics.

[Sovarica.4368]

Game gets too toxic when there's a handful of oppressive broken I've noticed the levels of anger and blaming go up quite a lot but yeah don't think anything will get fixed kinda sad each patch has something horribly broken

[Kodama.6453]

20 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

That makes sense but only if the stealth is in the area of the smoke field, and then the smoke field should blind everyone including you and your people . I'm speaking about the RP side of the skills with the thematic.

I don't think they can make it on technical level since it gets overcomplex but it should have some kind of difference between the professions, since we end up with the game turned up on its head, currently the best stealth assassin is bomb scrapper, thief is not even close using stealth to kill people, for long time everything was better in melee than a warrior, at some point thief was the best necro shroud build and so on. 

You are using realism as an argument here which does not apply.

If you swing your sword, you should realistically also hurt everyone on your team that the sword hits. If you lay down AoE fields, allies should get harmed by them as well.

The thematic of the smoke field is that the smoke covers vision and that's why you go invisible. Gameplaywise, it works differently because it doesn't make sense for the game mechanics to make you invisible for allies as well or that the stealth just applies inside the smoke field. Just like how many other aspects of the game ignore realism for the sake of gameplay. But the thematic is still present.

[Vancho.8750]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You are using realism as an argument here which does not apply.

If you swing your sword, you should realistically also hurt everyone on your team that the sword hits. If you lay down AoE fields, allies should get harmed by them as well.

The thematic of the smoke field is that the smoke covers vision and that's why you go invisible. Gameplaywise, it works differently because it doesn't make sense for the game mechanics to make you invisible for allies as well or that the stealth just applies inside the smoke field. Just like how many other aspects of the game ignore realism for the sake of gameplay. But the thematic is still present.

Well it is not about being realistic, but adding enough RP theme to it so it doesn't invalidate thief as the supposed stealth user, but also keep engi having stealth that fits. One way is to make engi stealth only in combat thing that they were applying to thief for quite some time, another is making the engi area group stealth something like Shadow Refuge.  Making it obvious that the enginier has went into stealth in some way changes the interaction enough that is seems more fair while keeping the themes in place and it turns engi from bomb assassin to bomber hidden by smoke. 

[Kodama.6453]

10 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Well it is not about being realistic, but adding enough RP theme to it so it doesn't invalidate thief as the supposed stealth user, but also keep engi having stealth that fits. One way is to make engi stealth only in combat thing that they were applying to thief for quite some time, another is making the engi area group stealth something like Shadow Refuge.  Making it obvious that the enginier has went into stealth in some way changes the interaction enough that is seems more fair while keeping the themes in place and it turns engi from bomb assassin to bomber hidden by smoke. 

Making sneak gyro like Shadow Refuge absolutely kills the skill, it becomes beyond useless if it's a walking field of "I am in stealth, but you still very clearly see where I am!"

Might as well just replace the skill entirely with something else at that point.

[Vancho.8750]

26 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Making sneak gyro like Shadow Refuge absolutely kills the skill, it becomes beyond useless if it's a walking field of "I am in stealth, but you still very clearly see where I am!"

Might as well just replace the skill entirely with something else at that point.

I remember they that one time they wanted to change it because of WvW, since it was/is kinda OP because it was the best strat to make the zerg invisible on the move. I think when Scrapper was released the gyro was visible since it was an object and you kinda knew that a group was there but they were still invisible, they potentially got the first attack but you knew where it would come from.  

[miriforst.1290]

I suppose they make a good point. We shall have to withdraw stealth from engineer to avoid a thematic cease and desist.

 

But you will be handing in ALL of your firearms wont you?

 

Its an entire traitline for engineer after all, as is explosives, As is any form of technology. And alchemy.

 

So things are looking especially bad for deadeye (has to use fingerguns from now on), bladesworn (do you have a license for that gun...blade?), harbringer (we got you on two charges, guns and elixirs). Also we will be taking that jade sphere thank you. And was that shortbow using explosives?

 

Once this is done the court will be open for rangers to get back their traps and longbow from dragonhunters.

 

On a serious note, i am not opposed to showing the function gyro while in effect as that was the gimmick it was created under.. However it also means it should have some power back, especially in wvw where it's a meme even compared to other stealth options on engineer. Mortar gets dull after a while.

Edited March 13, 2023 by miriforst.1290