Meta Incredibly not fun - Scrapper,Tempest,Virt,SPB,Cata Annoying & OP

[DanSH.6143]

I just can't bring myself to play pvp in this meta, scrapper 1 shotting from stealth, running with superspeed throwing nades backwards.

SPB's taking x3 longer to die than anything else just because of full counter.

Tempest literally the single most annoying spec to ever exist in the game, brings way too much CC and sustain while being immune to crits 90% of the time.

Cata just busted with unavoidable damage and incredible sustain, why Fresh Air and Air are its main source of damage - unavoidable damage shouldn't be high.

Virt (and chrono too) has immunity to damage with about 80% uptime, I don't think complete invulnerability should be something so spammable.

 

Hopfuly these problems will be resolved shortly with a balance patch...

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, DanSH.6143 said:

I don't think complete invulnerability should be something so spammable.

^ This

[jdawgie.1835]

6 hours ago, DanSH.6143 said:

scrapper 1 shotting from stealth

Big Damage should be possible - not from stealth like scrapper does it (Should only be thief - More on that below)

Stealth is a rouge mechanic meant for that arch-type. I have never understood what a engineer (fighter) class profession is doing with access to stealth. Also same thing for mezmer. Ive never seen a class have access to stealth outside of the rouge arch type.

On Stealth:

A few things need to be adjusted.

• If you appear close to the target a noise and/or indicator should take place (Like the noise WoWs rouge gives off when your being stalked)
• If you appear in front of the face of your opponent a shadow image should appear to give the opponent time to counter (also like WoWs rouge)
• Big damage for thief and only thief should be a thing from stealth but if you miss you should be reavealed (Not the weird mechanic we have now) but you should be exposed and open to a counter attack. Forceing the thief to re-stealth and regroup if their opponent misses their opportunity for counter. This is engaging game play each side has a chance to capitalize on the others mistake.

6 hours ago, DanSH.6143 said:

SPB's taking x3 longer to die than anything else just because of full counter.

Warrior is in a very good spot right now - It should be a Warrior and not easy to fight off. However it can very easily be killed 1v1. Right now a good warrior will fight well and bad ones get clapped. Warrior is in the best place its been in ages.

6 hours ago, DanSH.6143 said:

immunity to damage with about 80% uptime, I don't think complete invulnerability should be something so spammable.

Mez needs its access to stealth removed to allow for counter play its not a thief. Clones and imagery are its mechanic and it needs to be inline with that. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by jdawgie.1835

[Vancho.8750]

30 minutes ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Big Damage should be possible - not from stealth like scrapper does it (Should only be thief - More on that below)

Stealth is a rouge mechanic meant for that arch-type. I have never understood what a engineer (fighter) class profession is doing with access to stealth. Also same thing for mezmer. Ive never seen a class have access to stealth outside of the rouge arch type.

On Stealth:

A few things need to be adjusted.

• If you appear close to the target a noise and/or indicator should take place (Like the noise WoWs rouge gives off when your being stalked)
• If you appear in front of the face of your opponent a shadow image should appear to give the opponent time to counter (also like WoWs rouge)
• Big damage for thief and only thief should be a thing from stealth but if you miss you should be reavealed (Not the weird mechanic we have now) but you should be exposed and open to a counter attack. Forceing the thief to re-stealth and regroup if their opponent misses their opportunity for counter. This is engaging game play each side has a chance to capitalize on the others mistake.

Warrior is in a very good spot right now - It should be a Warrior and not easy to fight off. However it can very easily be killed 1v1. Right now a good warrior will fight well and bad ones get clapped. Warrior is in the best place its been in ages.

Mez needs its access to stealth removed to allow for counter play its not a thief. Clones and imagery are its mechanic and it needs to be inline with that. 

Mesmer is quite fitting thematically having invisibility, it is supposed to be the rogue wizard, Arcane trickster dnd thing or whatever fantasy you find there is something like that. The issue it is that the invisibility on Mesmer is kinda tacked on over invulns , clones and other mechanics that it ends up like it is like a bonus instead of a main mechanic.
Ranger can work too with stealth, since hunting going around stealthily, and the access is not that great one is locked on a weapon the other on a pet with a combo. 
Engi can work too, whith stealth device and what not, but it should be prone to failure or somewhat imperfect and not be good for attack opening and more like a defense tool .Currently it doesn't work thematically, you are carrying large explosives, machine parts, large weapons, setting things on fire to go boom, it just doesn't fit being stealthy, people might not see you but sure as hell should hear you clanking around.
Since stealth is the thief thing the other professions should have different types of it fitting to the professions with some quirks to them 

[apharma.3741]

Clones/Illusions are not a defence and neither is detarget technically, use "Previous Enemy" keybind and you will always have target snap back to the mesmer. Enjoy.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Options

 

[jdawgie.1835]

24 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Mesmer is quite fitting thematically having invisibility, it is supposed to be the rogue wizard, Arcane trickster dnd thing or whatever fantasy you find there is something like that. The issue it is that the invisibility on Mesmer is kinda tacked on over invulns , clones and other mechanics that it ends up like it is like a bonus instead of a main mechanic.
Ranger can work too with stealth, since hunting going around stealthily, and the access is not that great one is locked on a weapon the other on a pet with a combo. 
Engi can work too, whith stealth device and what not, but it should be prone to failure or somewhat imperfect and not be good for attack opening and more like a defense tool .Currently it doesn't work thematically, you are carrying large explosives, machine parts, large weapons, setting things on fire to go boom, it just doesn't fit being stealthy, people might not see you but sure as hell should hear you clanking around.
Since stealth is the thief thing the other professions should have different types of it fitting to the professions with some quirks to them 

I appreciate this response alot. Agree whole heartedly. 

 

25 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Currently it doesn't work thematically, you are carrying large explosives, machine parts, large weapons, setting things on fire to go boom, it just doesn't fit being stealthy, people might not see you but sure as hell should hear you clanking around.

This made me lol. So true. 

25 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

stealth device and what not, but it should be prone to failure or somewhat imperfect

Yes. 

26 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The issue it is that the invisibility on Mesmer is kinda tacked on over invulns , clones and other mechanics that it ends up like it is like a bonus instead of a main mechanic.

Yes. It has all 3 mushed together. 

 

26 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Ranger can work too with stealth, since hunting going around stealthily, and the access is not that great one is locked on a weapon the other on a pet with a combo

Yeah.

26 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Since stealth is the thief thing the other professions should have different types of it fitting to the professions with some quirks to them 

Exactly. 

[Shao.7236]

I like the scrapper burst from stealth. Good on the reaction times while they're paper and can't survive if you anticipate it.

A lot of the team bursts from stealth can be avoided by just not pushing until it runs out, been in strong high rated match ups and rarely did it kill anyone unless they were unprepared.

 

Catalyst has been less of an issue since I switched to condi boon rip. Maybe that's a hint at the fact power has been preferred for too long and needs to be shifted in favor of condi a lil.

Not everything has boon rip but everything has conditions. Worth a shot for anyone, especially with confusion. Won't deny that Earth Shield is annoying unfun still.

 

Virt just like Mirage or Chrono needs their Distortion removed and their F4 tweaked accordingly towards the elite. It always had been stupid to keep it on top of giving more, overshadows normal Mesmer while also counting as obvious power creep that doesn't shift the playstyle whatsoever.

 

Spellbreaker is in a "fair" spot, if I would change anything on it, that would be the stability duration on FC, by the time FC is over there's still around 0.25 of a second where you can't punish them and that's hella forgiving for an ability that strong.

Counting as a better, third evade overall but the limitation to adrenaline changes the damage potential on mostly everything but GS which I appreciate no less.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Dont hold your breath for any fixes to these issues. The devs are incompetent and biased and the mods will silence anyone that calls them out.

[Bazsi.2734]

10 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

On Stealth:

A few things need to be adjusted.

• If you appear close to the target a noise and/or indicator should take place (Like the noise WoWs rouge gives off when your being stalked)
• If you appear in front of the face of your opponent a shadow image should appear to give the opponent time to counter (also like WoWs rouge)
• Big damage for thief and only thief should be a thing from stealth but if you miss you should be reavealed (Not the weird mechanic we have now) but you should be exposed and open to a counter attack. Forceing the thief to re-stealth and regroup if their opponent misses their opportunity for counter. This is engaging game play each side has a chance to capitalize on the others mistake.

Nah this ain't it. How do you even prevent big damage from stealth on other classes? What if I have a meme rifle berserker on my team, and I stealth him at the start. He can straight up open with Gunflame if he wants. Or will stealth prevent him from doing so?

Also copying how WoW stealth works without bringing in the WoW balance will just make everyting worse. I thought this debate was settled in 2017 but here we are again. NO. BAD. STOP!

[Hotride.2187]

9 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Spellbreaker is in a "fair" spot, if I would change anything on it, that would be the stability duration on FC, by the time FC is over there's still around 0.25 of a second where you can't punish them and that's hella forgiving for an ability that strong.

Dunno if that does much, it will make covering a heal with FC a bit more awkward since you will need a weapon swap to cancel FC after using it. But (what I assume is) your problem with the stab will remain.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

9 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I like the scrapper burst from stealth. Good on the reaction times while they're paper and can't survive if you anticipate it

As much as people currently want to complain about it, its gimmick is high risk high reward setup in the right way imo.

[apharma.3741]

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Virt just like Mirage or Chrono needs their Distortion removed and their F4 tweaked accordingly towards the elite. It always had been stupid to keep it on top of giving more, overshadows normal Mesmer while also counting as obvious power creep that doesn't shift the playstyle whatsoever.

 

You do realise mesmer was literally unplayable competitively by even the people that mained mesmer not long ago? You also realise these people usually don't play any mesmer build in games they take seriously?
You remove distortion from mirage and chrono you're basically beating a dead horse.

[Khalisto.5780]

Bottom line

 

Everything i dont faceroll should be nerfed

 

 

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

You do realise mesmer was literally unplayable competitively by even the people that mained mesmer not long ago? You also realise these people usually don't play any mesmer build in games they take seriously?
You remove distortion from mirage and chrono you're basically beating a dead horse.

People are conditioned to think they need Distortion. It should just be unique to core like proper game design would intend a side grade be.

Chronomancers can be extremely oppressive with the ability to reset their state and that can also be used as sustain, if there's a need for more sustain. You have shield.

Mirage without distortion means hello second evade and something more entertaining for F4, anything but more i-frames when you can dodge while stunned.

Virtuoso is constantly set back as horrible yet they have so many options and don't rely on RNG of clones anymore. Calling it bad feels criminal. Having the ability to be more consistently on the offensive is a perfect justification for having blocks rather than i-frames.

If people can play core in a legitimate way, it proves that Distortion is not needed on the other elites because otherwise you're just doing Core with cool new spells which is not good for anyone. Proof being the constant builds with too much stalling over blocks and invuls.

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Dunno if that does much, it will make covering a heal with FC a bit more awkward since you will need a weapon swap to cancel FC after using it. But (what I assume is) your problem with the stab will remain.

If I wait for the perfect frames to counter FC and actually hit it, being able to CC the failed FC should be doable. That's my point all around. Just a tiny Stab change to punish if FC isn't triggered, opponents are capable of hitting as soon as possible that way over the proper play.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Shao.7236

[apharma.3741]

28 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

People are conditioned to think they need Distortion. It should just be unique to core like proper game design would intend a side grade be.

Chronomancers can be extremely oppressive with the ability to reset their state and that can also be used as sustain, if there's a need for more sustain. You have shield.

Mirage without distortion means hello second evade and something more entertaining for F4, anything but more i-frames when you can dodge while stunned.

Virtuoso is constantly set back as horrible yet they have so many options and don't rely on RNG of clones anymore. Calling it bad feels criminal. Having the ability to be more consistently on the offensive is a perfect justification for having blocks rather than i-frames.

If people can play core in a legitimate way, it proves that Distortion is not needed on the other elites because otherwise you're just doing Core with cool new spells which is not good for anyone. Proof being the constant builds with too much stalling over blocks and invuls.

Except they removed distortion from chrono before and it was unplayable, you would need to replace it with something that is basically distortion anyway.
Mirage shouldn't even have 1 dodge anymore after giving it back to Vindicator and it still wouldn't be meta, it would go from "play this if you want fun and don't care" to "viable in ranked" with distortion.
Virtuoso should never have had distortion to begin with AND IT DIDN'T. Removing distortion is only undoing a stupid choice earlier.
People play core mesmer by loading up on signets, using signet of illusions to reset distortion and blurred inscriptions, the problem isn't distortion on mirage it's blurred inscription and signet of illusions. The problem isn't distortion on chrono it's the ability to reset all your skills, always has been.

[viquing.8254]

48 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Chronomancers can be extremely oppressive with the ability to reset their state and that can also be used as sustain, if there's a need for more sustain. You have shield.

They already did it chrono was dead.

48 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Mirage without distortion means hello second evade and something more entertaining for F4, anything but more i-frames when you can dodge while stunned.

No, because before remove the 2nd evade they already nerf all vigor source.

48 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Virtuoso is constantly set back as horrible yet they have so many options and don't rely on RNG of clones anymore. Calling it bad feels criminal. Having the ability to be more consistently on the offensive is a perfect justification for having blocks rather than i-frames.

It is a bad decision.

But did you just play virtuoso ? Tell me how can you survive figthing unblocable CC and classes under perma swiftness/superspeed while being super slow.

And the offensive part only hit noobs who can't see a 1/2 to 3/4 cast + projectile animation. The sustain part part is mainly given by core things. So yeah it's bad.

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by viquing.8254

[Shao.7236]

5 hours ago, viquing.8254 said:

They already did it chrono was dead.

Yeah if you don't reduce Continuum Split CD to something more reasonable that fits Distortion being replaced you're not gonna do anything. How many times can we just plain blame Anet for not experiencing anything properly anyway? The skill can literally act like Distortion in a different way yet is not allowed to be as commonly used like it would be. Removing Distortion was a good move, not buffing Continuum Split CD to fit that new decision wasn't.

5 hours ago, viquing.8254 said:

No, because before remove the 2nd evade they already nerf all vigor source.

Nothing says they can't adjust any of it. Two evades will no matter be a step in the right direction over just dealing with the extra i-frames for anyone.

5 hours ago, viquing.8254 said:

It is a bad decision.

But did you just play virtuoso ? Tell me how can you survive figthing unblocable CC and classes under perma swiftness/superspeed while being super slow.

And the offensive part only hit noobs who can't see a 1/2 to 3/4 cast + projectile animation. The sustain part part is mainly given by core things. So yeah it's bad.

Everyone says Hammer Rev is slow and badly predictable yet here I am here using it as it is despite it's buggy state neglected state which is the actual issue with it. That's for you to figure out, I sure as hell know that you're not lacking anything if Mesmer by default can.

I only play with damage reduction and blocks typically on Core Rev with 0 i-frames, if you can't accept counter play when it's properly inserted, why even play.

Unblockables are not an issue in the game and Superspeed is a different issue altogether. Besides, you have the ability to make your blades unblockable which many relies on anyway, to say that only noobs get hit by x because of this long of a cast is a poor excuse and I could say the same about anything.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Shao.7236

[apharma.3741]

8 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Yeah if you don't reduce Continuum Split CD to something more reasonable that fits Distortion being replaced you're not gonna do anything. How many times can we just plain blame Anet for not experiencing anything properly anyway? The skill can literally act like Distortion in a different way yet is not allowed to be as commonly used like it would be. Removing Distortion was a good move, not buffing Continuum Split CD to fit that new decision wasn't.

Nothing says they can't adjust any of it. Two evades will no matter be a step in the right direction over just dealing with the extra i-frames for anyone.

Everyone says Hammer Rev is slow and badly predictable yet here I am here using it as it is despite it's buggy state neglected state which is the actual issue with it. That's for you to figure out, I sure as hell know that you're not lacking anything if Mesmer by default can.

I only play with damage reduction and blocks typically on Core Rev with 0 i-frames, if you can't accept counter play when it's properly inserted, why even play.

Unblockables are not an issue in the game and Superspeed is a different issue altogether. Besides, you have the ability to make your blades unblockable which many relies on anyway, to say that only noobs get hit by x because of this long of a cast is a poor excuse and I could say the same about anything.

This is funny coming from the rev player who wanted the casting stability on inspiring reinforcements to be increased until the pulsing stab from the road begun, providing absolutely no counterplay to the skill whatsoever. Not that it has much to begin with.
You DO NOT want continuum split on a lower cool down, it will cause an unending number of problems for the game. It would basically double up on everything much quicker, so the moment a skill becomes useful on its own, chrono will abuse it. Remember what CMC was saying about difficulty balancing around having a trait that reduces a cool down by 20%? Yeah, well, continuum split is far worse than that.
ANet will not "compensate" or undo vigor nerfs, if they were, they'd have done it already because mirage has been destroyed in the competitive scene since getting 1 dodge. That was a very long time ago.
Getting hit by a skill that at minimum is 0.5s cast time AND has an animation cast time on it AND has travel time AND is telegraphed for the whole activation is a skill issue. Remember decapitate? Warrior has even more tools to set that up, and every competent person regards being hit by decapitate repeatedly as a marker of a low skill player.

[viquing.8254]

55 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Yeah if you don't reduce Continuum Split CD to something more reasonable that fits Distortion being replaced you're not gonna do anything. How many times can we just plain blame Anet for not experiencing anything properly anyway? The skill can literally act like Distortion in a different way yet is not allowed to be as commonly used like it would be. Removing Distortion was a good move, not buffing Continuum Split CD to fit that new decision wasn't.

CS can't have a reduced CD because of how it impacts every other skills mesmer has.

55 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Everyone says Hammer Rev is slow and badly predictable yet here I am here using it as it is despite it's buggy state neglected state which is the actual issue with it. That's for you to figure out, I sure as hell know that you're not lacking anything if Mesmer by default can

I don't rember seeing hammer rev in high ladder. Unblockable are an issue when your only sustain is block. And currently we live in a meta where Ele, SpB, DD are a thing.

Edited March 11, 2023 by viquing.8254

[Kodama.6453]

On 3/10/2023 at 10:01 PM, Vancho.8750 said:

Engi can work too, whith stealth device and what not, but it should be prone to failure or somewhat imperfect and not be good for attack opening and more like a defense tool .Currently it doesn't work thematically, you are carrying large explosives, machine parts, large weapons, setting things on fire to go boom, it just doesn't fit being stealthy, people might not see you but sure as hell should hear you clanking around.

That's if you purely think of stealth as invisibility thematically. Which is not all there is to it.

For example, why are smoke combo fields granting stealth? It's not supposed to represent that smoke can literally turn you invisible. The thematical explanation for it is that you are using the smoke to hide your movement. The smoke is blocking the vision and people can't see what is going on inside of the smoke.

Engineer can fit as a major user of stealth with that theme, imo. Engineer should be THE class to make use of smoke as cover (next to thief). And it doesn't clash with engineer using big explosions and what not, since these are also used to create the smoke cover in the first place.

[Dr Meta.3158]

@jdawgie.1835

From a d&d standpoint, invisibility the spell is used by wizards, warlocks, artificers, bards, sorcerer, and one specific kind of druid. Out if that list we essentially have:

Wizard = Elementalist

Bard = Mesmer

Artificer = Engineer

Druid = Ranger (barely)

Rouge -> Arcane Trickster = Thief

So funnily enough stealth as the mechanic is designed in guild wars 2 makes the least sense of thief since turning invisible is a spell and there is only one rogue subclass that can barely cast magic (arcane trickster) still can use that spell, barely, and only at a high level. Invisibility is also not nearly as powerful in d&d (or any other game) as it is in guild wars 2, is only useful as an opener in combat, and is a bit of a waste of a spell slot to do so too for the marginal gain. Its not even for the gain you think. People can tell you're around if you're invisible in d&d, you're just harder to hit so long as you don't attack. I think this Guild Wars 2 has the most broken implementation of invisibility in all of gaming most likely. I would said thats beating a dead horse, but that horse has long been decomposed and devoured and the organisms that devoured it are dead too.

Now sneaking around, moving fast, dodging hits, backstabbing, etc makes sense for a rogue.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

why are smoke combo fields granting stealth? It's not supposed to represent that smoke can literally turn you invisible.

I dunno man. Usually when I'm smoking a marlboro red, if I jump up and slam my feet on the ground, it turns me completely invisible for a couple of seconds.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Dr Meta.3158]

15 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I dunno man. Usually when I'm smoking a marlboro red, if I jump up and slam my feet on the ground, it turns me completely invisible for a couple of seconds.

Turns your entire friend group invisible.

[jdawgie.1835]

6 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

is also not nearly as powerful in d&d (or any other game) as it is in guild wars 2, is only useful as an opener in comba

 

6 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

is only useful as an opener in combat

 

6 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Now sneaking around, moving fast, dodging hits, backstabbing, etc makes sense for a rogue.

Appreciated your post. Agree here.