Perma stealth on thiefs is wrong in WvW. Offers no counterplay.

[kash.9213]

10 hours ago, asterix.9614 said:

I think people should be directing this discussion towards dead eye, the other thief builds have a high skill ceiling. Dead eye on the other hand is like a glass cannon soul beast with instant access to stealth, a 1500 range daze, a tonne of blinds, don't forget poison, high dps and so many ports it can blink half a map away if anyone sneezes on it. Revealed debuff (classes that have access to it have it on a very short duration) is almost useless against a deadeye that has played the class for a day or so, the access to so many ports means the dead eye can kite till the debuff goes.

Some of those ports you're seeing might be leaps. With max pan camera speed and action cam, Death's Retreat can arch, pivot and orient, and land pretty instinctively. 

I kind of wish they leaned more into a post-up with some radius cover then shoot heavy and move Deadeye. It gets a quality and consistent boon lineup but I always wish Silent Scope and Shadow Meld gave some kind of gimmicky boost to Kneel to set up an area and made it a the signature presence. Shadow Meld's a little more legit now and the new Kneel is a lot of fun but it's still not pulling me away from Specter enough.

Edited March 18, 2023 by kash.9213

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

stealth is just wrong in wvw and needs to be removed. 

[Seneca.6319]

On 3/17/2023 at 5:00 AM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Except, there is actually plenty of counterplay to stealth.  It just takes some game knowledge and experience.  Other than the most meme builds--typically nade-Engis, power Mesmers, or Soulbeasts, capable of stealthing out of sight, getting into range, and then unloading a death sentence in seconds from thin air, there are several ways of countering stealth users, especially melee-thieves.  People aren't really interested in learning to play if they believe stealth lacks counterplay.

Even without access to Reveal, every class can: jump, change direction, and abuse no-port spots to neutralize Backstabs.  They can use blocks, invulns, evades, auras, skills like Infuse Light, Defiant Stance, Full Counter, and drop and stand in AOEs, etc. if they think a big stealth attack is incoming.  And yes, knowing when to use these does involve being able to read one's opponent, something applicable to all matchups.  A lot of these are why Dragonhunter hard-counters melee thieves.  And Willbender is every bit as bursty and mobile, all while wearing heavy armor.  Meanwhile, thieves are so squishy, even though hard to hit, they can't survive more than a couple good hits.

If stealth were everything, no one on a non-stealth class would be able to beat someone on a stealth build at the same skill level.  But we know that's not the case.  Far from it.  A number of builds give thieves a hard time, stealth and all.

It's tired wisdom but nonetheless true: The best advice to anyone struggling against thieves or stealth is to play those builds.  They are guaranteed to: (1) realize it's not as easy or broken as it looks, and (2) get much better, comfortable even, at engaging thieves on other classes. That's what I did.

So your advice is to:

1. dodge, evade, block something you can't see or target.

2. stop playing the class you like because Thief is broken.

 

Have you read your advices to yourself? If not, you should...

[Seneca.6319]

On 3/17/2023 at 12:32 PM, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Do it on a mesmer Build Editor

Absolutely fabulous! You sir, take the prize with your comment. Especially since I play mesmer most of the times. Nowadays I mix it up with Elementalist but both suffer from lack of counter to thieves and mesmers are even worse since it' such a reactive class, it needs a target to get up clones, no target, no clones so it's a sitting duck against Thief.

[andrewlcl.8176]

Complain about thief enough, and they might delete it from the game. 

 

Spoiler

But in case that fails, just play Willbender. 

 

[Aragoc.2596]

All thief should be rework, what on earth the class that has no counterplay, high risk high return??, invis every 2 sec then blink and 2-3 dodge with blink and bunch of breakstun and then invis again, and who said 'Oh why did you not bring reveal skill?', umm shortest cd is 15 sec and reveal is just 3 sec, pfff only thief player call its balanced. 

 

[Burnfall.9573]

5 hours ago, Aragoc.2596 said:

All thief should be rework, what on earth the class that has no counterplay, high risk high return??, invis every 2 sec then blink and 2-3 dodge with blink and bunch of breakstun and then invis again, and who said 'Oh why did you not bring reveal skill?', umm shortest cd is 15 sec and reveal is just 3 sec, pfff only thief player call its balanced. 

 

 

[MasterDeere.3417]

Stealth is fine,

teleport is fine,

stealth + teleport IS a problem.

Edited March 19, 2023 by MasterDeere.3417

[senftube.6081]

11 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

 

So a 11 months old video how perish kills a full bersi dh with a clown build?  😅

[Burnfall.9573]

2 hours ago, Yunari.9065 said:

 

So a 11 months old video how perish kills a full bersi dh with a clown build?  😅

(recent)

Thief Profession either need to be reworked from the ground up or to be completely removed from the game, for the health of the game and for the well being of the community.

 

Name one game company would allow a Profession to represent Toxicity for their gaming culture for 10 years+?

 

NONE!!

 

(Side note)

 

For 10 Years+ including this day, Thief Profession and  Stealth, are intentionally continually allowed to create and spread Toxicity to Guild Wars 2 Gaming Culture. 

 

Forcing the Guild Wars 2 community to leave and to quit the game and moving on and trying on, other gaming company culture who creates a open honest communication with their player base/community, whose reputation is built on trust, who builds a bridge in all game modes to enjoy and to feel comfortable with each other, who deeply understand their player base/ community  experiences and their behaviors firsthand.....resulting into action, whose mission in making them matter.

 

Lastly, moving on and trying on, other game company whose vision stand by their words

Edited March 20, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Dr Meta.3158]

28 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

(recent)

Thief Profession either need to be reworked from the ground up or to be completely removed from the game, for the health of the game and for the well being of the community.

 

Name one game company would allow a Profession to represent Toxicity for their gaming culture for 10 years+?

 

NONE!!

 

(Side note)

 

For 10 Years+ including this day, Thief Profession and  Stealth, are intentionally continually allowed to create and spread Toxicity to Guild Wars 2 Gaming Culture. 

 

Forcing the Guild Wars 2 community to leave and to quit the game and moving on and trying on, other gaming company culture who creates a open honest communication with their player base/community, whose reputation is built on trust, who builds a bridge in all game modes to enjoy and to feel comfortable with each other, who deeply understand their player base/ community  experiences and their behaviors firsthand.....resulting into action, whose mission in making them matter.

 

Lastly, moving on and trying on, other game company whose vision stand by their words

Glad more people are catching on now. 

[senftube.6081]

6 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Glad more people are catching on now. 

 

36 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

(recent)

Thief Profession either need to be reworked from the ground up or to be completely removed from the game, for the health of the game and for the well being of the community.

 

Name one game company would allow a Profession to represent Toxicity for their gaming culture for 10 years+?

 

NONE!!

 

(Side note)

 

For 10 Years+ including this day, Thief Profession and  Stealth, are intentionally continually allowed to create and spread Toxicity to Guild Wars 2 Gaming Culture. 

 

Forcing the Guild Wars 2 community to leave and to quit the game and moving on and trying on, other gaming company culture who creates a open honest communication with their player base/community, whose reputation is built on trust, who builds a bridge in all game modes to enjoy and to feel comfortable with each other, who deeply understand their player base/ community  experiences and their behaviors firsthand.....resulting into action, whose mission in making them matter.

 

Lastly, moving on and trying on, other game company whose vision stand by their words

 

Ahhh the next one wo comes up with a entire removal of one of the least played class in the game. The Confirmation Bias is also pretty strong here because such builds exist on several classes.

 

Ehh what? So it is toxic for getting killed in WvW? I mean alot of peoples also thinks that Pew Pew Rangers are insane annoying. Same with One Shot nade Scrappers or Weavers? So what is that for a stupid argument?

[smiiirf.3201]

43 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

(recent)

Thief Profession either need to be reworked from the ground up or to be completely removed from the game, for the health of the game and for the well being of the community.

 

Name one game company would allow a Profession to represent Toxicity for their gaming culture for 10 years+?

 

NONE!!

 

(Side note)

 

For 10 Years+ including this day, Thief Profession and  Stealth, are intentionally continually allowed to create and spread Toxicity to Guild Wars 2 Gaming Culture. 

 

Forcing the Guild Wars 2 community to leave and to quit the game and moving on and trying on, other gaming company culture who creates a open honest communication with their player base/community, whose reputation is built on trust, who builds a bridge in all game modes to enjoy and to feel comfortable with each other, who deeply understand their player base/ community  experiences and their behaviors firsthand.....resulting into action, whose mission in making them matter.

 

Lastly, moving on and trying on, other game company whose vision stand by their words

 

What a cringe post.

[TheGrimm.5624]

14 hours ago, MasterDeere.3417 said:

Stealth is fine,

teleport is fine,

stealth + teleport IS a problem.

stealth + teleport + macros are annoying

Its then up to the players to bring out toons with more reveals to hunt them. I don't mind the good at the class thieves. The ones that perform the perfect every time .25ms invis since they have it keybound on a device, not so much. But I am not a fan on calling out all the others that are doing it and are sticking with the one key one action rule set. Might be a better requests to ask for more ammo counts on reveal skills as counters.

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

(recent)

Thief Profession either need to be reworked from the ground up or to be completely removed from the game, for the health of the game and for the well being of the community.

 

Name one game company would allow a Profession to represent Toxicity for their gaming culture for 10 years+?

 

NONE!!

 

(Side note)

 

For 10 Years+ including this day, Thief Profession and  Stealth, are intentionally continually allowed to create and spread Toxicity to Guild Wars 2 Gaming Culture. 

 

Forcing the Guild Wars 2 community to leave and to quit the game and moving on and trying on, other gaming company culture who creates a open honest communication with their player base/community, whose reputation is built on trust, who builds a bridge in all game modes to enjoy and to feel comfortable with each other, who deeply understand their player base/ community  experiences and their behaviors firsthand.....resulting into action, whose mission in making them matter.

 

Lastly, moving on and trying on, other game company whose vision stand by their words

Are you asking them to code for glass on glass kills on any class? Again, this is why we get so many nerfs in WvW. That's even why ACs got nerfed because people in paper couldn't stand for minutes in them. ANet, DO NOT CODE FOR GLASS ON GLASS BUILDS PLEASE. This is also why we have people using armor or sustain builds because glass is countered by, wearing some armor. But the glass community will still find a way to say, Nerf Rock! Paper is fine, thanks Scissors.

Mind you I am not saying balance is great, but don't use a glass on glass example. 

[Burnfall.9573]

39 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Are you asking them to code for glass on glass kills on any class? Again, this is why we get so many nerfs in WvW. That's even why ACs got nerfed because people in paper couldn't stand for minutes in them. ANet, DO NOT CODE FOR GLASS ON GLASS BUILDS PLEASE. This is also why we have people using armor or sustain builds because glass is countered by, wearing some armor. But the glass community will still find a way to say, Nerf Rock! Paper is fine, thanks Scissors.

Mind you I am not saying balance is great, but don't use a glass on glass example. 

 

Let's begin with Anet marketing of Guild Wars 2

 

"Competitive Play"

 

"Competitive play in Guild Wars 2 is easy to learn but offers challenges for new players and hardcore PvPers alike. Whether you decide to jump into quick, furious matches between small groups of players in organized PvP or join hundreds of other players in the grand battles of World vs. World, PvP is where you’ll find the ultimate challenge!"

 

"World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!"

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/competitive-play/

 

0. Where is the "competitive play"?

1. Where is the "ultimate challenge"?

3. Where is the "offer to challenges" to new players and hardcore players alike?

4. Where is the "furious" matches?

5. Where is the "grand battle"?

6. Where is the "epic experience full of cunning experience"?

7. Where is the "Epic Combat On An Scale" from the video!!!!!?

Spoiler

There Are Absolutely.... None!!!!

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 minute ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

Let's begin with Anet marketing of Guild Wars 2

 

"Competitive Play"

 

"Competitive play in Guild Wars 2 is easy to learn but offers challenges for new players and hardcore PvPers alike. Whether you decide to jump into quick, furious matches between small groups of players in organized PvP or join hundreds of other players in the grand battles of World vs. World, PvP is where you’ll find the ultimate challenge!"

 

"World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!"

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/competitive-play/

 

0. Where is the "competitive play"?

1. Where is the "ultimate challenge"?

3. Where is the "offer to challenges" to new players and hardcore players alike?

4. Where is the "furious" matches?

5. Where is the "grand battle"?

6. Where is the "epic experience"?

7. Where is the "epic combat on an scale" from the video?

That's sPvP. WvW, you shouldn't code glass on glass. That's why we got the prior Feb wet noodle patch and now people complaining that players are too tanky or now the bits that there is too much sustain. Wear the appropriate armor and gear for your skill, playstyle, role, what your hunting, group size and connection. Aka its not a one size fits all 5v5 arena. The amount of thieves that hit a tankier player and then run away is still a thing most days. Its fine to ask for skills to be adjusted for outliers but asking for a full on nerf because a glass cannon died to another glass cannon is not good in practice.

[cyberzombie.7348]

22 hours ago, Aragoc.2596 said:

Oh why did you not bring reveal skill?', umm shortest cd is 15 sec and reveal is just 3 sec

You do know that most reveal skills applies 5 seconds at the minimum? With DHs, core warriors, and engis revealing up to 12. Spellpreakers can even go well beyond if spec'd for it. 

[Burnfall.9573]

38 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

That's sPvP. WvW, you shouldn't code glass on glass. That's why we got the prior Feb wet noodle patch and now people complaining that players are too tanky or now the bits that there is too much sustain. Wear the appropriate armor and gear for your skill, playstyle, role, what your hunting, group size and connection. Aka its not a one size fits all 5v5 arena. The amount of thieves that hit a tankier player and then run away is still a thing most days. Its fine to ask for skills to be adjusted for outliers but asking for a full on nerf because a glass cannon died to another glass cannon is not good in practice.

You already have read this article in the past and i will repost it

"As an individual who plays both a Mesmer and a Thief, I’m well aware of each classes limitations. I’m also well aware of the sheer frustration at being hounded for an entire match by a class that has near permanent evasion, unparalleled mobility and almost free access to stealth. At times, it’s physically impossible to avoid the burst of a Thief because they’re relentless in their ability to pursue and deal damage to you. I’ve always believed that it’s inherently unfair that any class can stealth when there are no or few skills to physically break those using it, out of it. To then provide a class with stealth the ability to deal massive burst damage is a recipe for frustration and unsurprisingly, players sought to find a solution. I appreciate that the Mesmer is capable of stealthing and dealing enormous damage from it, but the key difference is that for the majority of the time, the Mesmer is fully visible. Its highest burst doesn’t come from stealth and its current stealths have lengthy cooldowns and short durations. In contrast, a Thief revolves around remaining immune to damage through evasions and bursting directly from the shadows."

"Irrespective of whether we’re finger pointing towards Thief or Mesmer as the cause of people pursuing more defensive builds, it’s fair to say that burst damage against anything other than a Celestial or Cleric is too high especially when both classes are playing together. Here’s a recent combat log of me fighting a friend who plays Mesmer, on my Thief."

"Having almost 8 seconds of stealth on a Thief, or a comfortable 6 seconds on a Mesmer without using an Elite is a long time. It provides a perfect opportunity to reposition for a spike when the opponent you’re facing simply has to stand there and predict when you’ll attack. There’s no reliable defence against stealth besides cleaving blindly. If there’s ever going to be build variety outside of the extremes of pure damage or pure defence, there has to be some sort of balance pass across Critical Hit Chance, Critical Hit Damage, Evasion and Stealth. Without this, I suspect Guild Wars 2’s PvP will always be one of extremes."

https://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

 

Here is Anet marketing of playing the game the way you want:

"Play Your Way"

"Chose from eight unique Professions, equip your favorite weapons, and tailor your skills to your play style"

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

(Do you see anything wrong with this picture? I am sure you and I including many others who have left, quit and who are trying other game company games, see the Truth to it all!!)

 

"There’s the truth that hurts us and the truth that hurts others” 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[solemn.9670]

20 minutes ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

You do know that most reveal skills applies 5 seconds at the minimum? With DHs, core warriors, and engis revealing up to 12. Spellpreakers can even go well beyond if spec'd for it. 

Introduce me to these 12s reveal build spellbreakers so I can absolutely whoop them with my non-stealth build.

Do you see the issue here?

[cyberzombie.7348]

5 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

Introduce me to these 12s reveal build spellbreakers so I can absolutely whoop them with my non-stealth build.

Well just slotting 'on my mark' and megababe tether can get the job done. 

[solemn.9670]

Just now, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Well just slotting 'on my mark' and megababe tether can get the job done. 

Slotting on my mark will be more than enough wasted utility to allow me to win any longer than 30 seconds fight. Sure yes, your point stands when it comes to the average pug maybe but vs an actual roamer if you don't have every possible advantage you've already lost lol

We already have to account for slotting excessive condi cleanse bc of aids condi builds, can't expect ppl to want to kitten themselves that much by accounting for power, excess condi spam, and stealth counters all in one build. Simply, thats gonna result in a lot of deaths if you solo roam lol

[kash.9213]

3 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

Slotting on my mark will be more than enough wasted utility to allow me to win any longer than 30 seconds fight. Sure yes, your point stands when it comes to the average pug maybe but vs an actual roamer if you don't have every possible advantage you've already lost lol

We already have to account for slotting excessive condi cleanse bc of aids condi builds, can't expect ppl to want to kitten themselves that much by accounting for power, excess condi spam, and stealth counters all in one build. Simply, thats gonna result in a lot of deaths if you solo roam lol

They have as many slots to decide how to fill as you do. 

[cyberzombie.7348]

@solemn.9670 Fair enough, especially since resistance got nerfed.

Though at the same time theives rarely give me much trouble since the defense rework. I usually bait their burst with dodge + omm then pressure. Or just as they're trying to stealth, I use rush/kill shot to track their movement. 

[Aragoc.2596]

1 hour ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Well just slotting 'on my mark' and megababe tether can get the job done. 

yes, you right in perfect case that thief fighting without kiting or blink away from you reveal 6s might be enough to kill, but i didn't see any thief that stand still and 'oh i got reveal then i'll use my sword to fight with you'. 

the problem is yeah there are many skill that can reveal but its just nothing, thief also has many many defense layer like dodge (2 for core+de, 3 for dd and even combine with endu food), blink (sb, sword, utility), blind (gun and many skill and trait), invul (elite dagger storm) and even remove reveal (de) and most of them is 0 cd and this is not trade off for 'oh i bring defensive skill so i might not do high damage' because its still doing high damage.

for example, today i deal with DE that can be blink almost unlimit by sword+util and blink up and down and stealth repeatly by just gun 5 and dagger 2 and even run away and out of combat and change build to another build and back to fight and run away and do this thing repeatly,  so tell me what are you suggest in this case, because i think even i bring all utility reveal skill it still noting to deal with him.