Why are most players so ignorant of how bad they are?

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I only play Tempest. Just because I like it. I went from bronze to silver to gold over the years. Some of it may be skill but mostly balance changes which has made Tempest stronger now than 5 years ago. I play for (daily) rewards and fun. Could not care less about where I am on the ladder.

 

With 9 professions I could roughly keep track on what is being played and what the general strategies are of other players. But with 27 elite specs on top of the core professions I'm not going to even try to keep track of their strategies. You can call me bad, you can call anyone in gold and below bad. But just let us play the way we like. There are multiple divisions for a reason. Let newbies and casuals play in bronze and silver. Let average players play in gold and everyone is happy. Team composition takes player skill in account.

 

Yes, teams should be balanced better. If you're platinum and you only want to play with and against players of that skill rating, there should be an option. But be aware that this will lead to (very) long queue times. But don't blame a silver player that is thrown into a high tier match that he/she is silver.

Q: Just go play unranked
A: I would be happy to, but unranked rewards are laughable. I would be happy to play there but I play for pips, rewards and achievements. Many of these can only be earned in ranked. So as long as unranked rewards and titles are worse than ranked. I will just be playing at ranked.

Edited March 28, 2023 by TheQuickFox.3826

[Stalima.5490]

6 hours ago, Kstyle.5829 said:

I read every single patch note over the last 2 years and none of those things happened.  Another clueless silver lord here folks.

Let's wrap it up, thats a troll people.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:04 AM, Stalima.5490 said:

As this seems to be about the scrapper, the OP doesn't seem to understand the full extent of what has actually happened:

 

Gyro buffs

Hammer buffs

Tool kit buffs

Grenade kit buffs

Tools traitline buffs

Scrapper traitline buffs

Explosives buffs

 

This is not the case that just grenades were buffed and overnight it is overpowered, this particular build is the result of numerous, completely unconnected buffs across the board.

Literally all 3 traitlines, the base weapon and the class skills as well as 2 additional kits were buffed which makes this particular build by far more powerful than if you did this a year ago for example

8 hours ago, Kstyle.5829 said:

I read every single patch note over the last 2 years and none of those things happened.  Another clueless silver lord here folks.

 

2 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Let's wrap it up, thats a troll people.

Hm. Nah. You're both off by a bit. 

For the people curious, it looks like:

• Only Electro Whirl was buffed in the past two years in the hammer (scrapper) section
• Only Purge Gyro was buffed in the past two years in the gyro section
• Only Box of Nails was buffed in Tool Kit.
• Only Shrapnel and Freeze grenade got buffs in the past two years, and Shrapnel Grenade's buff was just a CD revert
• Tools traitline got buffed via specifically Takedown Round now giving a flat damage increase to strike damage instead of putting an explosive charge on someone.'
• Scrapper Traitline got buffs with the reworks to superspeed application for gyros, impact savant, and kinetic accelerators, the last was the focus of a recent nerf.
• Explosives got 3% strike damage increase on Glass Cannon.

There -were- some buffs, but the buffs were not significant in any groundbreaking way with one notable exception. Remember, before a few recent patches, scrapper was nowhere to be seen in PvP except for some specific players (like ALIEN and a couple others who constantly play scrapper). This development is new.

I think the recent jumpscare build we've seen is indeed a direct result of Kinetic Accelerators now giving fury and might, which allowed people to buff their might really high with superspeed then reducing people to atoms from stealth. In that case, the nerf was targeted and correct. Now scrappers attempting to do that cannot prestack their might as high, which should give people more time to react. 

Nades remained largely untouched. I don't get why people are still mad at scrapper. 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Khalisto.5780]

8 hours ago, Kstyle.5829 said:

I read every single patch note over the last 2 years and none of those things happened.  Another clueless silver lord here folks.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Electro-whirl it seems like dude running gw2wiki is also a clueless silver lord rofl

Edited March 28, 2023 by Khalisto.5780

[SleepyBat.9034]

9 hours ago, Kstyle.5829 said:

I read every single patch note over the last 2 years and none of those things happened.  Another clueless silver lord here folks.

That's not entirely true, there were quite a few buffs, reworks, and nerfs since 2020.

Edit: Never mind I see other people have already posted lists of all the recent changes.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by SleepyBat.9034

[Stalima.5490]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Hm. Nah. You're both off by a bit. 

For the people curious, it looks like:

• Only Electro Whirl was buffed in the past two years in the hammer (scrapper) section
• Only Purge Gyro was buffed in the past two years in the gyro section
• Only Box of Nails was buffed in Tool Kit.
• Only Shrapnel and Freeze grenade got buffs in the past two years, and Shrapnel Grenade's buff was just a CD revert
• Tools traitline got buffed via specifically Takedown Round now giving a flat damage increase to strike damage instead of putting an explosive charge on someone.'
• Scrapper Traitline got buffs with the reworks to superspeed application for gyros, impact savant, and kinetic accelerators, the last was the focus of a recent nerf.
• Explosives got 3% strike damage increase on Glass Cannon.

There -were- some buffs, but the buffs were not significant in any groundbreaking way with one notable exception. Remember, before a few recent patches, scrapper was nowhere to be seen in PvP except for some specific players (like ALIEN and a couple others who constantly play scrapper). This development is new.

I think the recent jumpscare build we've seen is indeed a direct result of Kinetic Accelerators now giving fury and might, which allowed people to buff their might really high with superspeed then reducing people to atoms from stealth. In that case, the nerf was targeted and correct. Now scrappers attempting to do that cannot prestack their might as high, which should give people more time to react. 

Nades remained largely untouched. I don't get why people are still mad at scrapper. 

 

I assume you don't play engineer so you may not have been keeping track of everything effectively or you would understand the signifficance of things like the blast gyro stunning now and not knocking back, the gyro trait increasing your short term burst because of larger might stacks among other things such as faster rocket charges.

 

Alot of the time it is not the damage buffs that make you stronger but the non-damaging ones on top of it, for example scrapper no longer loses vitality purely for playing scrapper, it now has a new sustain regeneration while tools automatically cleanses a condition every single time you toolbelt.

 

Scrapper is effectively a spec that has countless small, seemingly insignificant changes that have heavily built up over time, I would know since I basically only played scrapper until I got into support bunker mechanist

Edited March 28, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

I assume you don't play engineer so you may not have been keeping track of everything effectively or you would understand the signifficance of things like the blast gyro stunning now and not knocking back, the gyro trait increasing your short term burst because of larger might stacks among other things such as faster rocket charges.

 

Alot of the time it is not the damage buffs that make you stronger but the non-damaging ones on top of it, for example scrapper no longer loses vitality purely for playing scrapper, it now has a new sustain regeneration while tools automatically cleanses a condition every single time you toolbelt.

 

Scrapper is effectively a spec that has countless small, seemingly insignificant changes that have heavily build up over time, I would know since I basically only played scrapper until I got into support bunker mechanist

I play engineer, but not well, and it's definitely not my strong suit (and when I learn it fully I will probably lean holo anyway). I'm aware that there are quite a few changes that have overall improved the feel of scrapper, particularly Impact savant and toolbelt cleanses, but even so I don't think the class is markedly different from how it used to be, to the point that it justifies additional nerfing right now.

Even though they hit a bit harder and have a little more sustain, they still all largely panic elixir if you interrupt them. 

It -did- get buffs, but I'm still not sold on the fact that it's carried and that more than the change to Kinetic needs to be done. Blast Gyro stunning is useful for the stealthnuke build but outside of that environment... idk dodge it, otherwise they should be able to use hammer on you. 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[SleepyBat.9034]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Only Shrapnel and Freeze grenade got buffs in the past two years, and Shrapnel Grenade's buff was just a CD revert

There was a slight buff to Genade Barrage which is worth noting.

5 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Scrapper is effectively a spec that has countless small, seemingly insignificant changes that have heavily build up over time

Eh, I don't buy that.

[Axl.8924]

On 3/27/2023 at 3:46 PM, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Tbh you are the ignorant one for not acknowledging that the said class evolves in an ecosystem. Changing part of that ecosystem will indirectly affect the unchanged part of that same ecosystem. example:

• class A is a 10 
• class B is 7
• class C is 5

Class A will be considered OP because it has the higher score. Now after some changes:

• class A is 4
• class B is 3
• class C is 5

Class C is now considered OP even though it hasn' t be touched.

 

Only if you overnerf.

 

Plus i also hate this static thing as it doesn't take into account problems a class can possess, such as:People complain about mirage with 1 dodge being problematic to play or people complained about thief which is built for stealth and then they power crept multiple classes to have that level of mobility but also with the burst EG:some of the sustain Cata had plus burst and or Engi with holo.

 

If you nerf holo to go from 8-4 and now say necro is 5 and multiple things are way below and it was still 5 and wasn't great,it possibly means you overnerfed things as well.

 

Shouldn't there be some stuff that lightly counters something to keep stuff in control? 

I've heard thief keeps mesmer in control because of stealth and necro with boon corrupt is supposedly to help keep under wraps boonspam classes for example in WVW.

 

I felt like this game lost something when we got massive power creep since pof.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Only if you overnerf.

 

People complain about mirage with 1 dodge being problematic to play or people complained about thief which is built for stealth and then they power crept multiple classes to have that level of mobility but also with the burst

I'm not adding anything constructive I'm just pointing out this makes me very angry.

Hypocrites the lot of you.

Carry on c:   

Edited March 28, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Axl.8924]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm not adding anything constructive I'm just pointing out this makes me very angry.

Hypocrites the lot of you.

Carry on 😄  

Maybe i am a little bit considering i'm no pro i'm a dirty casual who plays for fun and messes around with classes so i can't really speak about pro circles, but i have been around and seen people complain about X and y classes nonstop and sometimes the lack of certain class presence can in fact let certain classes roam free and disturb the balance.

[SleepyBat.9034]

5 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

Shouldn't there be some stuff that lightly counters something to keep stuff in control? 

I've heard thief keeps mesmer in control because of stealth and necro with boon corrupt is supposedly to help keep under wraps boonspam classes for example in WVW.

 

I felt like this game lost something when we got massive power creep since pof.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind light counters but specs/builds like thief and harbinger simply hard counter 90% of the other builds and it makes the game very unfun. Powercreep could definitely use an adjustment for small-scale WvW.

[Stalima.5490]

18 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It -did- get buffs, but I'm still not sold on the fact that it's carried and that more than the change to Kinetic needs to be done. 

 

17 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Eh, I don't buy that.

It's a difficult thing to discuss because of the sheer scope of what it has actually gained, this kind of gameplay was not actually new as it has been around since the flamethrower doing full damage times, now however it has gone through tiny change after tiny change that have made it drastically more powerful than those earlier versions which had time to kill in the very low seconds, now you will be dealing with that in addition to additional blocks, additional cleanses, additional regeneration, a higher health pool, improved as well as streamline mechanics, higher single hit damage.

 

But realistically you are ignoring something important here, the new build would only use one gyro which is the buffed blast gyro from what ive seen, as such it stands to reason that they instead use applied force which again, was a revised mechanic so now every single might will give them even more power at the cost of condition damage that they don't even use.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[SleepyBat.9034]

6 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

It's a difficult thing to discuss because of the sheer scope of what it has actually gained, this kind of gameplay was not actually new as it has been around since the flamethrower doing full damage times, now however it has gone through tiny change after tiny change that ihave made it drastically more powerful than those earlier versions which had time to kill in the very low seconds, now you will be dealing with that in addition to additional blocks, additional cleanses, additional regeneration, a higher health pool, improved as well as streamline mechanics, higher single hit damage.

 

But realistically you are ignoring something important here, the new build would only use one gyro which is the buffed blast gyro from what ive seen, as such it stands to reason that they instead use applied force which again, was a revised mechanic so now every single might will give them even more power at the cost of condition damage that they don't even use.

If that build really is overperforming then the question is, what is the minimal amount of nerfs or reworks required to make it perform on an acceptable level without making any skills/traits worthless?

[Axl.8924]

6 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

If that build really is overperforming then the question is, what is the minimal amount of nerfs or reworks required to make it perform on an acceptable level without making any skills/traits worthless?

If the problem is only a elite, then we need to ask a questino i guess:

Is it too mobile or sustainable? What ability is it that is the problem?

Is it a issue stemming from the core? 

 

Is it DPS issue? is it a issue of CC/DPS combination? or just ability to do too much damage? does it stem from core? or the elite itself?

 

If its a problem that has to do with elite, then the ability from the elite can i guess be changed so its not so problematic, but if its a issue of core  effecting a elite, then thats problematic.

 

core related issues is hard to fix without making core useless and ahving to have a elite prop it up, whcih creates more issues in itself too, such as:

If you  have a big nerf from ele that effects tempest, then it could possibly hit it so hard that its viability goes into question due to line.

 

This kind of thing has happened to necromancer where core gets nerfed effecting the elites.

There has to be a way to make it so that a elite can be nerfed without causing too much issues with core line, creating terrible lines that give AWFUL 1 dimension pidgeon holed builds with no other options.

[JTGuevara.9018]

...Oh am I going to have fun with this...

So, first. Basically, what you're saying is: get good. Well...it's not like the same thing has been said countless times...for years and years...

Second. Imagine defending a profession and build that is hopped up on superspeed juice and is able to kite other classes for eternity with no way to reach them. On top of the utility skills for mobility and damage nullification. Never mind the grenades. Also, it has access to stealth, the most problem mechanic in this game. People don't need to be 'top players' to point out lousy mechanics. Also, people are entitled to have a good time. gw2 IS a live-service after all....

Third. SOME of us have gotten good. And we quit...! Because this game mode is more stale than guys' pickup lines.

Fourth. Imagine flashing elo and titles as if people are to be impressed. Nobody is impressed. Not even your fellow 'X of the Arena' holders are impressed.

Fifth. The top players never left. That is propaganda. The middle has left. The intermediate players have left. All that is left are new players and the 'top players'.

Sixth! I'm going to refer to this right here.

On 3/27/2023 at 8:29 AM, Kstyle.5829 said:

If a class can go 2 years with only having nerfs to suddenly be perceived as "meta" then it just proves the community is ignorant about game balance.

No. That just means it is BADLY MADE. If you have to constantly fix something just to get it to a workable state, then guess what...you messed up. And the wider community is pointing it out.

But I could just say that for any other class, not just engi.

[SleepyBat.9034]

10 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Imagine defending a profession and build that is hopped up on superspeed juice and is able to kite other classes for eternity with no way to reach them. On top of the utility skills for mobility and damage nullification.

Without superspeed, Scrapper has a single 18-second cooldown, 1000 range movement skill which is worthless with all the mobility creep. I never count utility mobility skills like rocket boots unless it's a stun break because being forced to use one feels terrible for build craft.

[Downstate.4697]

A big issue is the damage of barrage. A good thunderclap into a barrage can end a fight before you can really react. The stealth helps set it up. If they reduced the amount of grenades in barrage and the auto attack it might be fine. The superspeed is a bit problematic but the biggest pain point people have is probably with grenades.

[Bazsi.2734]

I can't relate to this. I never lose to anyone, ever. Next time you stand defeated above my glorious corpse, ask yourself this: was it really worth it?

[Axl.8924]

3 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

...Oh am I going to have fun with this...

So, first. Basically, what you're saying is: get good. Well...it's not like the same thing has been said countless times...for years and years...

Second. Imagine defending a profession and build that is hopped up on superspeed juice and is able to kite other classes for eternity with no way to reach them. On top of the utility skills for mobility and damage nullification. Never mind the grenades. Also, it has access to stealth, the most problem mechanic in this game. People don't need to be 'top players' to point out lousy mechanics. Also, people are entitled to have a good time. gw2 IS a live-service after all....

Third. SOME of us have gotten good. And we quit...! Because this game mode is more stale than guys' pickup lines.

Fourth. Imagine flashing elo and titles as if people are to be impressed. Nobody is impressed. Not even your fellow 'X of the Arena' holders are impressed.

Fifth. The top players never left. That is propaganda. The middle has left. The intermediate players have left. All that is left are new players and the 'top players'.

Sixth! I'm going to refer to this right here.

No. That just means it is BADLY MADE. If you have to constantly fix something just to get it to a workable state, then guess what...you messed up. And the wider community is pointing it out.

But I could just say that for any other class, not just engi.

Are you surprised? scourge was busted and they had to hotfix that bad boy and they took years to fix mesmer and finally.

 

Sometimes arenanet  is so set on their ways of releasing broken classes that are either weak or busted OP to the inth degree.

[Gibson.4036]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:29 AM, Kstyle.5829 said:

For everyone on the forums who whines about losing to classes, why is your first instinct that the class is overpowered?  I have asked many of these players which classes they play, and they always only give me 1 answer.  I've personally played every class in the game to at least platinum elo, and I still think I'm pretty ignorant about how to balance the game.  But you play only 1 class, and don't even know the abilities and skills other classes have, but you think that the reason you're losing is because of game balance?

 

Right now everybody is whining about some horrible scrapper full PVE build with 1 stunbreak an no stability.  I've personally never seen a single person running this build in the top 100.  I mean I play scrapper (I like reaper a lot more right now) but that's the last build I would use to push rating, as it's just good for stomping noobs who can't react in time.  That's about it.  A good player just predicts your obvious burst, and then CC's you 2 times and you're dead.  But since nobody plays scrapper, most noobs don't even understand the classes abilities.   They are just basing their opinions off the fact they are losing fights against it.  If you truly believe the class to be strong, why not play the class to test your theory instead of whining about it on the forums first?

 

If you actually go on the balance notes you can see that scrapper has only been nerffed for the last 2 years.  Something like 20 nerfs.  So these players think a class is suddenly overpowered, even though it has only gotten objectively weaker.  It's literally only strong because it's a PVE damage build and lower skilled players are trying to play the game reactively instead of predictably.  So ANET will probably ruin the whole class just because a PVE build became popular in the lower elo brackets.  There's nothing actually good about it from a competitive standpoint.  Just big numbers on grenades.  

 

So we have people who are just playing unranked games who think they know about class balance, even though they only play 1 class and are bad at that class.  It's really sad because ANET has to appease their "customer base" and that means just handing out nerfs where they really aren't warranted.  How often are classes nerffed not because a build is strong, but because it is popular and players struggle with it due to ignorance?  The vast majority of the time.  If a class can go 2 years with only having nerfs to suddenly be perceived as "meta" then it just proves the community is ignorant about game balance.

 

If you really wanted to see if a class was strong or weak, you can't just have an emotional reaction to losing.   It would be better to try the class yourself, but even that is subjective.  You would need to have everyone try all the classes, an look at the data regarding which classes perform best.  Otherwise we are just nerffing and buffing things based on what people "believe" to be strong or weak.  That's the cycle we have right now.  Noobs cry on forums an ANET tries to appease the masses.  Balancing around low elo players has driven all the top players to quit besides the last few raging addicts.  And the cycles of random nerfs and buffs will just continue endlessly until they finally shut this dead game down.    It just makes me sad that every time I come here and look at the forums I see people posting about what "needs" to be changed in PVP.  And the most vocal people talking about balance is always some silver ranked scrub that bases his entire post off the fact he rage quit after wasting an entire game dueling a bunker at far.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority

[Kstyle.5829]

5 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

 

No. That just means it is BADLY MADE. If you have to constantly fix something just to get it to a workable state, then guess

I literally have played grenade scrapper for years and everybody laughed at me and said it was trash.  So you're saying it was OP this whole time due to negligence?  It literally dies in 1 hit.   If you dodge barrage/electro whirl it literally has only auto attacks left.  And it can't even 1 shot you with those 2 attacks, people just panic and run away after that and die to the auto attacks instead of fighting the scrapper.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Kstyle.5829

[Crab Fear.8623]

Ironic thread

[Kstyle.5829]

PSA for all the terrible god awful players in this thread

 

1. Look at the opponents your facing before matches 

2. Instead of using your cookie cutter meta battle build change your utility slots for your opponents

3. Grenade scrapper has literally 0 ways to remove immobilize

4. Take an immobilize talent, maybe even a reveal one

4. Immobilize the scrapper

5. He can't move for 10 seconds

6. GG

Imagine knowing so little about this game that you never even thought of this easy solution.  Doing your pve dps rotation in PVP and reacting to damage and CC is not how you play.  Once you get to platinum elo literally any 2 classes in the entire game using discord can one shot you.  You literally die in 0.1 seconds if you aren't PREDICTING your opponents burst before it happens you're doing it wrong.  

Edited March 28, 2023 by Kstyle.5829

[JTGuevara.9018]

29 minutes ago, Kstyle.5829 said:

I literally have played grenade scrapper for years and everybody laughed at me and said it was trash.  So you're saying it was OP this whole time due to negligence?  It literally dies in 1 hit.   If you dodge barrage/electro whirl it literally has only auto attacks left.  And it can't even 1 shot you with those 2 attacks, people just panic and run away after that and die to the auto attacks instead of fighting the scrapper.

 

 

I've said NOTHING of the sort. Read again.