ANet wants celestial gear to do what it currently does because they directly profit from it being strong.

[Polar.8634]

2 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Now you're saying it isn't "more power = more damage"?

Why would I need all stats?  I don't need all stats even in WvW.

while on cele you get power AND condi damage AND precision AND ferosity AND condi duration. AND because you also have concentration, you generate might much better then power build so even celestial dps is higher. not burst(mostly) but dps.

 

and if that was not enough, you are also tanky. only blind does not see what is wrong here

[Burnfall.9573]

I would like to make a new proposal for runes. a

A proposal for all runes that are not specifically assigned to their specific Profession roles to be removed.

 

All runes which grants stealth, are exclusive to Thief Profession (with Stealth Mechanic redesign)

 

All runes which grants conditions are exclusive to Thief Profession, Elementalist Profession, Necromancer Profession etc..

 

All runes which grants healing are exclusive to Guardians Profession, Ranger Profession, Engineer Profession etc..

 

All runes which grants support are granted to Guardians Profession, Engineer Profession etc...

 

Etc...

 

All runes would be redesigned for each Profession roles without impacting their identity.

 

Remove all remaining runes which does not align with their Profession and violates Profession roles.

 

I believe this would be a great alternative for addressing runes.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Chaba.5410]

31 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

while on cele you get power AND condi damage AND precision AND ferosity AND condi duration. AND because you also have concentration, you generate might much better then power build so even celestial dps is higher. not burst(mostly) but dps.

 

and if that was not enough, you are also tanky. only blind does not see what is wrong here

It just looks to me like gear choice is situational.

I get higher power and precision and ferocity numbers with Berserker's though.  I don't need condition duration.  Concentration isn't might generation, it only extends it's duration.  I don't need that if I'm getting might from another player in my group (again, situational).  Why would I need to be tanky if I can mitigate damage with movement and other skills?

Burst, as you say, is higher with Berserker than with Celestial.  I think you may mean total overall damage, but that only affects longer fight.  Have you looked at how long a fight must go on for before Celestial overtakes Berserker in total damage?

Edited April 17, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[StarPT.7431]

People out here acting like Celestial is OP and unbeatable....it's not even every class that can reap the benefits of Celestial, lol.

[Polar.8634]

14 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Burst, as you say, is higher with Berserker than with Celestial.  I think you may mean total overall damage, but that only affects longer fight.  Have you looked at how long a fight must go on for before Celestial overtakes Berserker in total damage?

depends on build. some celestial builds are so broken, that they can kill fast and be tanky (actually reason i think cele is broken). 

some need more time to finish fight. example - virtuoso. while nearly immortal on cele, it`s might generation is low, so it has proplem finishing fight.

opposite example - willbender, rene. they have no problem generating 25 might, which puts their damage through the roof.

 

you also would be surprised, but might changes power and condi damage in different way. You can check in-game. to summarize: might boon increases damage for condi disproportionally big in comparison to power.

 

That explains why celestial was ok before buff, but now it is problem. Even before buff it had more total stats then any other set. But buff gave it concentration without any tradeoff.

 

Result - builds with infinite boon and condi duratuion, having most damage because of might generation.

[Chaba.5410]

7 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

depends on build. some celestial builds are so broken, that they can kill fast and be tanky (actually reason i think cele is broken). 

some need more time to finish fight. example - virtuoso. while nearly immortal on cele, it`s might generation is low, so it has proplem finishing fight.

opposite example - willbender, rene. they have no problem generating 25 might, which puts their damage through the roof.

 

you also would be surprised, but might changes power and condi damage in different way. You can check in-game. to summarize: might boon increases damage for condi disproportionally big in comparison to power.

 

That explains why celestial was ok before buff, but now it is problem. Even before buff it had more total stats then any other set. But buff gave it concentration without any tradeoff.

 

Result - builds with infinite boon and condi duratuion, having most damage because of might generation.

Yea, I agree with you on a lot of that.  You tried to answer a question I put to someone else about how the problem is because cele has more total stats.  That person didn't bother trying to answer.  Yes, it has more total stats and even more after adding in concentration and expertise.  I was looking for why it was ok before but only now a problem.

I think a lot of people would agree that the willbender build is over the top.  I don't want to say it's just builds or just gear though.  To me it's an intersection of the two.

[Polar.8634]

3 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Yea, I agree with you on a lot of that.  You tried to answer a question I put to someone else about how the problem is because cele has more total stats.  That person didn't bother trying to answer.  Yes, it has more total stats and even more after adding in concentration and expertise.  I was looking for why it was ok before but only now a problem.

I think a lot of people would agree that the willbender build is over the top.  I don't want to say it's just builds or just gear though.  To me it's an intersection of the two.

yeah, it is. Harb is op too, but at least you can run from harb if things go south. and Druid has mobility and immob, but lo cleave. Willy is like harb/druid hybrid. i tried wb and it feels like god mode in comparison to anything i play usually. there is no weak spot.

[Hotride.2187]

16 hours ago, StarPT.7431 said:

People out here acting like Celestial is OP and unbeatable....it's not even every class that can reap the benefits of Celestial, lol.

Really? Which profession has no good cele build then?

[Chaba.5410]

5 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Really? Which profession has no good cele build then?

Define "good". Warrior feels bad with cele.

[Hotride.2187]

14 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Define "good". Warrior feels bad with cele.

lol cele spb is of the most broken cele builds with cleansing ire

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

depends on build.

Someone unintenionally said the right answer.

9 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

lol cele spb is of the most broken cele builds with cleansing ire

Cele on warrior is low key strong, but that is because of stat gains from the traitlines creating an even higher stat check. Warrior overall does better when you lean into it's innate armor and HP advantage, which cele does, but other stats do better.

[Chaba.5410]

20 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

lol cele spb is of the most broken cele builds with cleansing ire

I asked you to define "good", not what exists.  Oh, you have to take cleansing ire, huh?  So you're purposely nerfing your damage potential because of a stat combo?  I see, I see.

My guild has used celestial spellbreaker for zerging.  Let's just say they aren't there for their damage...

The rare spellbreaker roaming amongst the horde of berserkers....

Edited April 18, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Hotride.2187]

14 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I asked you to define "good", not what exists.  Oh, you have to take cleansing ire, huh?  So you're purposely nerfing your damage potential because of a stat combo?  I see, I see.

My guild has used celestial spellbreaker for zerging.  Let's just say they aren't there for their damage...

The rare spellbreaker roaming amongst the horde of berserkers....

Good is anything that will stomp your average power build and will stalemate other cele builds.

So like, you say war doesnt work with cele, I give you a build where it does but you dont like a trait choice? And are you seriously bringing up zerging in a thread that is about roaming? Just lol.

[Chaba.5410]

8 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Good is anything that will stomp your average power build and will stalemate other cele builds.

So like, you say war doesnt work with cele, I give you a build where it does but you dont like a trait choice? And are you seriously bringing up zerging in a thread that is about roaming? Just lol.

Yes, I originally discussed roaming in this thread because I said the gear choice is situational despite the fact that this thread didn't specifically talk about roaming.  There's a few times you find the gear used in zerging too though.  If the warrior class specialists in my guild who also roam on warrior because that's their main class were not fans of the celestial build, I will trust them.

You haven't really shown that cele spellbreaker is "most broken" either.  I certainly haven't seen any hordes of spellbreakers out roaming compared with the hordes of berserkers otherwise I'd have agreed with your statement.  I'd expect if it were a "most broken" spec, it would get abused and one wouldn't see any other warrior builds but cele spellbreaker.  Another warrior main I know outside of my guild also doesn't use it.  Is Hadi using Celestial?  Hrm...

[Hotride.2187]

29 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You haven't really shown that cele spellbreaker is "most broken" either.

I asked the one war in my guild about it, just like you did, duh?

Go fight one,  no idea what proof you expect. You need literally 0 knowledge of the build and can use skills off CD and it will work really well (not that this is unique to this particular cele build). It didnt even get the nerfs its spvp version got.

There is no profession that cant use cele. War was the only one pre eod, its not anymore. I've barely been at duel spot and I've seen it multiple times, no idea what rock your guildies live under.

[Chaba.5410]

20 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

 no idea what proof you expect.

I told you my reasoning twice now.  Hordes of berserkers vs. hordes of spellbreakers.  When something is "most broken" it gets abused.

20 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

There is no profession that cant use cele

I thought we were talking about "most broken" and not what exists.  Let's stick with the same goalposts you first established.
 

20 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

It didnt even get the nerfs its spvp version got.

There is no celestial stat in spvp.  So are you now talking about some feature of the skills or the gear?

Edited April 18, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Zyreva.1078]

51 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I told you my reasoning twice now.  Hordes of berserkers vs. hordes of spellbreakers.  When something is "most broken" it gets abused.

 

I remember only one berserker i have met in the past months, who was a threat on his own - guess what he was playing ... oh right, it was likely cele (or maybe condi, but pretty sure it was cele, certainly not pure power). All those "hordes" of berserkers i see now are just hiding in zergs. If they get caught without pocket healer they die when getting sneezed at (or they deal no dmg like that one i met who was probably running full minstrel or something like that).

99% of players in WvW are getting carried by outnumbering their enemy, so there is no need for them to run good builds. So representation of builds is not neccessarily an indicator of how strong it is.

It's the same with ranger. Like 90% are power slb with lb, yet they get absoluetly farmed by any decent cele build (including cele slb!). Which is why all those rangers aren't doing much but ganking outnumbered players and tower hugging.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I told you my reasoning twice now.  Hordes of berserkers vs. hordes of spellbreakers.  When something is "most broken" it gets abused.

I thought we were talking about "most broken" and not what exists.  Let's stick with the same goalposts you first established.

There is no celestial stat in spvp.  So are you now talking about some feature of the skills or the gear?

Its broken because it cleanses like crazy, which is how you stalemate another cele build. On top it has FC, decent condi pressure, endure pain, adrenal health and boonrip from dagger. It literally sits in dmg, which is why it was used in spvp 2v2, 3v3 and conquest as a sidenode. And yes, spvp has no cele. As you can (hoepfully) guess, cele makes the build even more broken due to more of everything. I did say, one of the most broken cele builds. This means (with cata and scrapper exceptions) condi vomit, insane sustain and enough cleanses to fight other cele builds. Its maybe not as broken as power lb/gs sb or cele cata, though I'm not 100% sure. Neither of those can kill it 1v1 (though I doubt the spb can kill the other build either).

No idea why you keep going on about a one shot build that needs every skill slot to setup a 1 shot you can dodge, then you look at the berserker and it dies in 2 seconds. I've not seen this build even once at duel spot, you can probably (hopefully) guess why. There are no hordes of this build, I've only seen it in the hilarious video from the forum. Literally a bump in the terrain will shut it down. But if you are going to moan about it, you can do so in the other thread. I do agree it looks kinda dumb but dont care too much about it (any +1 will melt it and res the 1 shotted downie).

[Chaba.5410]

27 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

No idea why you keep going on about a one shot build that needs every skill slot to setup a 1 shot you can dodge

Huh?  I believe you have me mistaken for someone else?

[TheGrimm.5624]

21 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

I would like to make a new proposal for runes. a

A proposal for all runes that are not specifically assigned to their specific Profession roles to be removed.

 

All runes which grants stealth, are exclusive to Thief Profession (with Stealth Mechanic redesign)

 

All runes which grants conditions are exclusive to Thief Profession, Elementalist Profession, Necromancer Profession etc..

 

All runes which grants healing are exclusive to Guardians Profession, Ranger Profession, Engineer Profession etc..

 

All runes which grants support are granted to Guardians Profession, Engineer Profession etc...

 

Etc...

 

All runes would be redesigned for each Profession roles without impacting their identity.

 

Remove all remaining runes which does not align with their Profession and violates Profession roles.

 

I believe this would be a great alternative for addressing runes.

Did you mean to post this here or is this a miss-post and meant for a different thread?

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Really? Which profession has no good cele build then?

All professions have been getting more options for Cele use, the same as they did with Condi, Sustain, Support along all the expansions. People said Thief would never get a support Elite and yet we have one. And yes tie a support thief with a power or condi heavy build and it can get the job down pretty fast. They even kind of said that when they release the expansions and do balancing changes that they are looking for all Cores/Elites to have options outside of just Power builds. But they said it themselves, they release the level 80 boost tokens with Cele gear so that anyway the player may go be that Power/Condi/Support/Hybrid and such they would have 'serviceable' gear. That doesn't seem to indicate that when they ran the numbers they found it BiS.

Edited April 18, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624
incomplete sentence

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Good is anything that will stomp your average power build and will stalemate other cele builds.

So like, you say war doesnt work with cele, I give you a build where it does but you dont like a trait choice? And are you seriously bringing up zerging in a thread that is about roaming? Just lol.

So a power build that stomps an average Condi build needs to go? Same with a Condi build stomping an average power build needs to go? How do we rate the opposite when a build can't stomp a Tank, Sustain or Heal build? On top of that how are you rating what you are facing without an inspect feature in this game? It took a while to fight so it must be Cele versus a Sustain or Tank build out? We don't want the sPvP amulet system, without build diversity we would have lost even more players over time than we have.

[Hotride.2187]

52 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So a power build that stomps an average Condi build needs to go? Same with a Condi build stomping an average power build needs to go? How do we rate the opposite when a build can't stomp a Tank, Sustain or Heal build? On top of that how are you rating what you are facing without an inspect feature in this game? It took a while to fight so it must be Cele versus a Sustain or Tank build out? We don't want the sPvP amulet system, without build diversity we would have lost even more players over time than we have.

Cele build that wins against anything non-cele 1v1 and draws against cele, do you prefer this wording? Though this leaves the impression that there are condi builds that dont run cele. I guess there are a few, but they are bad.

I honestly dont care if a build is power or condi, but it should die eventually. Cele does not die. You can watch 2 good players on cele builds fight indefinitely, more or less. This is not a question about tanks, supports and dps, this is about a build that does good dps and just doesnt die. A tank doesnt do this sort of dmg, neither does a support. If you want to not die you sacrifice dmg and that is all there is to it.  But not in this game, not with cele and that is why its broken.

Have to roll my eyes on how to know what you are fighting. What else is it when you see it has toughness, high hp pool, boon vomit, high sustain, condi vomit and moderate strike dmg? Condi weapons, boon vomit utils, typical cele spec, gee, what could the used stats be? A mystery and a half. Maybe marauder?

And I have to repeat myself, cele builds are not diversity. They all play out essentially the same. There is no "dodge/space/anticipate this high impact skill", there is only, run out of cleanses/defensives after 5 min of hitting a brick wall and die. The whole combat goes in the dumpster.

You even got the ganker guilds coming from spvp mocking cele players at this point. No idea what more you need to know about the stat.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

53 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

i see someone likes to take few words out of context and make assumptions. thats why arguing with fools, women and gw2 forum people is mostly useless

Relax. It was meant to be tongue in cheek.

[Atticus.7194]

2 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Cele build that wins against anything non-cele 1v1 and draws against cele, do you prefer this wording? Though this leaves the impression that there are condi builds that dont run cele. I guess there are a few, but they are bad.

I honestly dont care if a build is power or condi, but it should die eventually. Cele does not die. You can watch 2 good players on cele builds fight indefinitely, more or less. This is not a question about tanks, supports and dps, this is about a build that does good dps and just doesnt die. A tank doesnt do this sort of dmg, neither does a support. If you want to not die you sacrifice dmg and that is all there is to it.  But not in this game, not with cele and that is why its broken.

Have to roll my eyes on how to know what you are fighting. What else is it when you see it has toughness, high hp pool, boon vomit, high sustain, condi vomit and moderate strike dmg? Condi weapons, boon vomit utils, typical cele spec, gee, what could the used stats be? A mystery and a half. Maybe marauder?

And I have to repeat myself, cele builds are not diversity. They all play out essentially the same. There is no "dodge/space/anticipate this high impact skill", there is only, run out of cleanses/defensives after 5 min of hitting a brick wall and die. The whole combat goes in the dumpster.

You even got the ganker guilds coming from spvp mocking cele players at this point. No idea what more you need to know about the stat.

I just want to say the hyperbole on this post is WILD. You are trying so hard to exaggerate for effect it's kind of astonishing. Half of the things you're saying are so problematic are in fact the benefits of runes and sigils giving wild synergy more than they are the effect of celestial gear but you haven't said a peep about those at all. You've just hyperfixated on this one thing that you have decided is the problem because its convenient and fairly accepted. 

 

Is celestial gear a bit too forgiving in providing too much buffer in conjunction with the reworked runes and sigils and talents? Perhaps but nerfing celestial without carefully considering that it is the only thing that makes several specs viable at all will cause more harm than what it supposedly fixes. As to what fixes all of this I do not know aside from another pass over some of the more problematic runes and sigils that provide a bit too much synergy and some of the skills that provide a bit too many boons.

 

Edit: Also no offense or anything but citing "ganker guilds" as a source to prove a point isn't really the something ArenaNet should be balancing around. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Atticus.7194