Im mad about the siege placement in this game,specifically catas

[ilMasa.2546]

There is no way that attackers should be free to place 4 to 6 catas  on a single pixel behind your own wall and dont even have to measure the power of the shot, when defenders have to start doing quantum physics and architectural calculations to land a perfect shot exactly one millimeter ( a tip of a finger nails,for US measurament so devs can understand) beyond their own wall,without hitting any other structural object in the way.

Just like Anet changed where you can build sieges at spawn (several times in 10 years), they should introduce a distance limits from walls for building catas. Catapults should be a medium range siege and should be placed at a medium distance from the walls.
When Im defending I have to turn my slow-kitten sieges I have to charge the slow-kitten power gauge, i have to make 2 or 3 practice shots to calculate the distance  and while doing all this half of the wall is already gone.  
Once I've measured the correct distance for the power gauge, I now have to do space-time calculations to land a shot between the cd of 4 to 6 shield bubbles.
What attackers have to do instead? Nothing: they just have to click the button to shoot without having to charge a slow-kitten power gauge or take aim (cos they are at point blank of the kitten wall)

WTF lol? Come on.

The game has several types of siege:

• Trebs for long distance
• Catas for medium distance (should be)
• Rams for close distance aka gates
• Shield gens for defending your sieges
• Golems for whatever they are supposed to be used

Why catas need to have shield bubbles when we already have a dedicated siege expressly designed to do that

Back in the days  siege wars were fun: they built a trebuchet far away ? you respond with your  trebs as you organize a group to go and attack the enemy position and in doing so you moved the fight to open field. Who use trebs now? People afk in towers shooting down paper walls while watching netflix. Catapults defacto have replaced all the other options: catas cost less, are built for less, and have their own shields. Also u can shoot extremely close or far depending on the situation. You cannot land a close shot with a treb or a mortal because they have a minimum distance and therefore you often have to go and use a mortar positioned in a completely different place or perhaps in another tower (and you lose more time) to balance the differences in range.

Siege disablers!!!!! before someone brings up the siege disablers argument, it's not a matter of being able to disable a siege, it's a matter of inequality of mechanics (siege placement,distance range) and abuse of a stupid system ( building siege behind indestructible walls cos the splash dmg will take care of it anyways,for istance) that should be made sense instead

So what I would like to see is the introduction of a fair build distance limit for catapults from towers and keeps and the removal of bubbles from catas.
I don't think it's that hard to do and I don't think it's going to ruin the game mode, instead I'm convinced it's going to promote  battles on the open field rather than aoe spam on the walls or in stupid choke points.

I mean when Anet wanted to promote the sales of gliders to wvwers they moved walls and towers they remodeled the topography of maps...so why not make a good change?!

Also since Anet changed the daily rewards, I've been seeing an increase in people asking not to defend in order to do the weekly or because "some people have yet to do it".
Do we really want to get to this? WvW isn't already in a good position and has a lot of problems, but do we really want to reduce it to daily and weekly grind,where people only participate for those and see ya?

I expect a lot of confused faces. So go for it i dont care. Peace

Edited April 25, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[Chaba.5410]

19 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

Back in the days  siege wars were fun

Elementalists would disagree.

[cyberzombie.7348]

As asinine siege logic can be in this game, setting up catas point-blank do have their drawbacks. Namely camera limitations and with that, I usually manage to counter siege them from a blind spot off the objective.

[Dawdler.8521]

15 hours ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

• Golems for whatever they are supposed to be used

Camp defense, duh.

[SFShinigami.1572]

19 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Elementalists would disagree.

 

Mesmers,  too. I remember using the sword to block trebs from gari @ bay.

[Riba.3271]

22 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

23 hours ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

Back in the days  siege wars were fun

Elementalists would disagree.

Actually eles were one of the biggest beneficiars of non-superspeed arrow cart meta. They were only ones that could clear the arrow carts and could destroy enemies on chokepoints with arrow carts supporting them.

Now that siege is a joke and everyone moves mach 10 through every field, it is actually quite miserable time to play elementalist. Not that Jade Sphere staff catalyst isn't top DPS, CC source and boon applicator in squads, but just the fact that ele isn't unreplacable god class anymore.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Chaba.5410]

Just now, Riba.3271 said:

Actually eles were one of the biggest beneficiars of non-superspeed arrow cart meta. They were only ones that could clear the arrow carts and could destroy enemies on chokepoints with arrow carts supporting them.

That is IF their presence at the trebs wasn't demanded by everyone.

[Riba.3271]

5 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

That is IF their presence at the trebs wasn't demanded by everyone.

Well, as Elementalist you were at least doing something whereas everyone else just logged in to wait you to do your thing. Ele was the most fun class to siege on.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Edu.6984]

I would like to see trebs and mortars getting the same treatment as the treb in Batle of Kyhlo (spvp), where you have a better vision an can aim like an AC.

 

OP is right about mortars been way harder to use than offensive siege. 

[Riba.3271]

23 hours ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

Back in the days  siege wars were fun: they built a trebuchet far away ? you respond with your  trebs as you organize a group to go and attack the enemy position and in doing so you moved the fight to open field. Who use trebs now?

Actually your reasoning is faulty, trebs are not used anymore because:

• Objectives upgrade much faster so taking long to reset them doesn't bring equal benefits
• Shield generators exist, 1 person can use 2 different shield generators and block like 90% of treb shots
• Supply is more abudant, if you attacked a keep in the past, it had 0 supply, now they have ~800 supply to repair with
• Trebbing is obvious way of attacking. You open it and then you have to fight. But fighting inside objectives is super unfair these days with tactivators, EWPs, tankier lords and defender having ~20% extra damage worth of stats. By trebbing you're saying I can fight you, but defenders will have to be much worse with current balance to lose. (Which is obvious from the fact that servers can hold SM all day which never happened in the past)
• Playing extra time means less players next relinking
• Golems are affected by boons now.. And shield generators exist.. And Gates/Walls have less hitpoints. So trebbing is unnecessary since there is already unstoppable way of getting in. Getting in is not the problem, it is all the defender bonuses.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Gehenna.3625]

I'm going to say something really shocking, so prepare OP, but Shield Generators are also used to defend objectives, like walls. I know, it's almost heresy but there it is.

The point of Golems is that you can get close range but since they're moving sieges they can be used to breach outer and inner keep gates. And yeah, they are used to defend camps or at least contest them for others to come to your aid.

Rams are not just close ranged but for gates specifically.

What I truly hate and what I would like to see changed is that catas are being used for close range. Aside from it being ridiculous that they can just stand in their own aoe, I feel the difference between short and long ranged damage is not big enough. When decked out a superior or guild catapult does 4% damage against walls (t0). That is just ridiculously high. It should be nerfed to 1% afaic. And there should be a minimum distance to walls (so they essentially don't stand in their own aoe). Also people place catas in places so close to the walls or even inside the walls that you really have to expose yourself fully to be able to even hit them.

 

All in all, I see you speaking from an attacker's pov and from a zerg pov. When you defend against a group of 30+ people and you are 10-20 defenders you may as well give up and not defend at all. 

Defenders do need advantages because the fights are rarely equal and if you want to fight zerg v zerg you don't need an objective to do that. Also there are 3-way fights where defenders have to defend against two sides, so double the attackers than you can possibly muster. Again, defenders do need some advantages.

[babana.7521]

First of all if it isn't broken don't fix it. In this case there is nothing wrong with the catapult and their placement. 

[ilMasa.2546]

Im not saying it's broken.
But you also can't tell me that catapults and placing catapults right behind walls are balanced. Compared to defensive sieges and the plethora of actions a person must take to use those sieges.

• How long does it take to turn a mortar or a treb? Alot
• How long does it take to turn a cata? Nothing cos catas are built point blank at walls. On SMC you can actually build catas ON the cornerwalls and good luck hitting that bs with mortars.
• How long does it take to shoot with a defensive siege? Alot compared to catas,cos you have to calculate the distsance with several shots and then you have the power gauge.
• How long does it take to shoot with a cata at point blank on walls? 4.5 seconds which is the cd .

Atleast be honest. Tell me something like "i dont want this change cos i want my karma train to be fast"  😉

Im saying it's too much convenient compared to all the other siege options. And everyone knows it cos karma train. And most people want to flip keeps and towers back to back for rewards, in the shortest possible time. lol

[Gotejjeken.1267]

They'd have to fix earth keep double wall 'feature' and hills cata spot 'feature' to even begin to hit cata effectiveness.. 

Trebbing would still be useless on RBL because some genius decided to make the towers worthless--but you could still treb bay and alpine garri (from the towers, like intended) if they'd cut down on 'build 15 sup/guild catapults and shred a t3 in 35 seconds' meta.  

[Dawdler.8521]

8 hours ago, babana.7521 said:

First of all if it isn't broken don't fix it. In this case there is nothing wrong with the catapult and their placement. 

Whats actually broken is the trebuchets which still hasnt been updated to align with the new ranged siege system. (which was changed years ago)

If trebs where cheaper and had a massive damage boost at max range, you can bet your kitten far more sieges would be done with trebs.

And it'd look cooler too.

[Riba.3271]

8 hours ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

Im not saying it's broken.
But you also can't tell me that catapults and placing catapults right behind walls are balanced. Compared to defensive sieges and the plethora of actions a person must take to use those sieges.

• How long does it take to turn a mortar or a treb? Alot
• How long does it take to turn a cata? Nothing cos catas are built point blank at walls. On SMC you can actually build catas ON the cornerwalls and good luck hitting that bs with mortars.
• How long does it take to shoot with a defensive siege? Alot compared to catas,cos you have to calculate the distsance with several shots and then you have the power gauge.
• How long does it take to shoot with a cata at point blank on walls? 4.5 seconds which is the cd .

Ok, this comment is so stupid because you're not listing any of the defender advantages. Let me list some

• The defending siege can most times be built higher thus it can reach further
• The defending siege can be built and turned before and after attackers arrive
• The defending siege is safe from most abilities whereas attackers siege can always be attempted to be destroyed
• Defenders start with extra siege. Your mortar argument? Build your own countersiege if the free siege doesn't work.
• Defenders literally have supply depot next to them
• Defending AC will beat attacking AC without taking almost any damage

 

Now I do agree with your statement that defending with siege is too hard with current balance state of nerfed wall/gate HP, reduced supply costs, availability of shield generators and increased amount of carried supply. But building catas next to walls has  nothing to do with it and defending itself is overpowered with objectives being able to be held for several days thanks to defenders having tactivators and very noticeable amount of bonus stats.

Edit: Forgot to mention that siege damage to siege was accidentally (yes, accidentally) halved in the past. So that is main reason why it feels like arrow carts do not counter catas against wall anymore.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Gehenna.3625]

14 hours ago, babana.7521 said:

First of all if it isn't broken don't fix it. In this case there is nothing wrong with the catapult and their placement. 

I feel there is. Catapults should not be able to be put up directly against the walls. That's my opinion and you're free of course to have your own.

[Riba.3271]

12 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I feel there is. Catapults should not be able to be put up directly against the walls. That's my opinion and you're free of course to have your own.

Ok. Lets do this:

1. Rams can be placed against walls and they do damage to walls (Logical right?)
2. Catapults cannot be placed against walls

Is this the solution you guys wanted? Not much would change but I guess it would make it so that using same siege to destroy outer and inner would be limited to trebs and golems.

(I am not serious btw, it would be pointless)

Edited April 24, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Bristingr.5034]

On 4/21/2023 at 6:09 PM, ilMasa.2546 said:

People afk in towers shooting down paper walls while watching netflix.

Hey! I take offense to this remark. We watch Hulu and AppleTV now.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 4/21/2023 at 9:09 PM, ilMasa.2546 said:

Catapults should be a medium range siege and should be placed at a medium distance from the walls.

Nothing: they just have to click the button to shoot without having to charge a slow-kitten power gauge or take aim (cos they are at point blank of the kitten wall)

Lets assume for a second that there is no logic in place already for this min distance check to work against for placement. There is a already logic in place for amount of damage to shot pull, now in that calculation is there already room for a shot distance variable that could be tweaked so that distance travelled instead of just pull time were run together to adjust damage done? That way you could still place close but would get less percentage per shot? That might be workable without an environment change. I would add the same logic to the Treb to make them more efficient at range.

 

On 4/21/2023 at 9:09 PM, ilMasa.2546 said:

So what I would like to see is the introduction of a fair build distance limit for catapults from towers and keeps and the removal of bubbles from catas.

I would leave the bubbles on the cats but repurpose the shield generators for another role and remove the double bubbles that way.  

 

On 4/21/2023 at 9:09 PM, ilMasa.2546 said:

I don't think it's that hard to do and I don't think it's going to ruin the game mode, instead I'm convinced it's going to promote  battles on the open field rather than aoe spam on the walls or in stupid choke points.

Choke points are good things when you are talking about holding a wall breach. Choke points like designed in Hills not so much since they seem to favor a larger attacker that has already made it across the choke and now holds the bridge or inside the lord's room. Wouldn't mind seeing that room reworked completely. The concept was good on paper but doesn't play very well.

I admit in general I wouldn't mind seeing more options for siege both offensive and defensive and wouldn't mind seeing some alternate ideas that have popped up here overtime. 

[ilMasa.2546]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

The defending siege can most times be built higher thus it can reach further

It doesnt matter cos we are not talking about maximum range.We are talking about minimum range for certain sieges and offensive sieges being shielded by your own walls. So even tho i could build a catapult on the dome in any ebg keeps i still have my wall between their siege and mine.

 

 

Quote

The defending siege can be built and turned before and after attackers arrive

Yes theoretically speaking but in practice it doesn't work like that.
Because you have to see where they attack first. Since each structure has several destructible access points, you must go with what the enemy zerg does first. And based on which wall the enemy decides to destroy, then you select the best option available to you.
That's when you start turning that siege. But again turning sieges is way to slow. For istance it takes 30 seconds to turn a mortar to the opposite direction. So in that time frame a cata built right next to a wall can shoot 7 times. And with 3 or more catas the shoots pile up really fast. And still you have to charge your shoots and you have your own walls in your way.
 

Quote

The defending siege is safe from most abilities whereas attackers siege can always be attempted to be destroyed

Yes if we think of real sieges or how sieges historically worked. BUT it doesn't work like that on gw2.
If im manning a catapult on a wall,i dont have a zerg around me giving me heals,stability,cleans and covering my position from outside attacks. Attackers are stacked on those catas,giving buff,sustain and being so close to walls makes them out of sight if you are not  leaning over the catwalk. So in my humble opion being on outer walls 80% of the time is a death trap not an advantage point.The only way you can phyisically attemp to destroy those catas happens when a commander organizes a full charge. And if u go back to my first post i say exactly that "it's going to promote  battles on the open field rather than aoe spam on the walls or in stupid choke points." The only difference will be the catapult placemente: in the open field,not under your walls

Quote

Defenders start with extra siege. Your mortar argument? Build your own countersiege if the free siege doesn't work.

You can spend litterally 1 hour building defensive sieges on walls to see them destroyed in seconds by 1 aoe bomb,so outer walls defenses are automtically out of the equation (aoe bomb fiesta,pulls,condi spam).
You can use siege on inner walls to be extra safe but those siege will do little.And again we still have the "my walls are actually shielding them" situation.Also bubbles.
 

Quote

Defenders literally have supply depot next to them

This waa a good argument 10 years ago when u actually had to do supply runs to build a treb. Nowdays everyone is running with a 25 supply if an attacking zerg cant build enuf it's mostly cos people didnt care to grab supply
 

Quote

Defending AC will beat attacking AC without taking almost any damage

Cant say that much about this,never actually looked into ac vs ac

Edited April 24, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[ilMasa.2546]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

Ok. Lets do this:

1. Rams can be placed against walls and they do damage to walls (Logical right?)
2. Catapults cannot be placed against walls

Is this the solution you guys wanted? Not much would change but I guess it would make it so that using same siege to destroy outer and inner would be limited to trebs and golems.

(I am not serious btw, it would be pointless)

No the solution i persoanlly want is to have a minum distance from walls where you can buil catas.
Cos when i see catas being built in positions like this one is when i see gw2 sieges mechanics as a joke
https://postimg.cc/VSGdNKf5
or
https://postimg.cc/T59PZ04R

Edited April 24, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[Chaba.5410]

41 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

No the solution i persoanlly want is to have a minum distance from walls where you can buil catas.
Cos when i see catas being built in positions like this one is when i see gw2 sieges mechanics as a joke
https://postimg.cc/VSGdNKf5
or
https://postimg.cc/T59PZ04R

Looks like those aren't built right against the objective's walls though.  What you're really upset about is splash damage, not minimum distance?

[ilMasa.2546]

13 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Looks like those aren't built right against the objective's walls though.  What you're really upset about is splash damage, not minimum distance?

Those are  examples of why catapults should get a minimum build distance from walls.Then ofc splash damage should get a bit of tuning as well

This is the pinnacle of BS about catas:
https://postimg.cc/S2CzRWJ9

Come on guys,it's not right 😅
 

Edited April 24, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[babana.7521]

 

On 4/23/2023 at 8:34 AM, Edu.6984 said:

OP is right about mortars been way harder to use than offensive siege. 

Mortar is the easiest to aim, I am not telling anyone how,  hehehehe 

Nothing is wrong with siege, they are all fine, stop wasting ArenaNet's time making them unable to add things like favourite armour/colour sets and direct discord link from chat.

Edited April 28, 2023 by babana.7521