Reaper Shroud in All Game Modes.

[Malus.2184]

To improve the other skill reliably without making the spec an overpowered mess the Shroud needs to be decreased in efficiency across all game modes. Instead of, absorbing 100% of all damage taken it should only absorb 50%. This would still be a powerful protective buff when used, Shroud would last longer since it only takes half the damage, and every skill could be brought up to where it should be due to the ridiculous force multiplier of Shroud no longer being present.

Yes, this makes it different from what it used to be and it no longer becomes the insane god mode that it is. People who play Reaper ask yourself this, How would you rather the class be? One where the skills are at best whelming since you have a full god mode you can use every so often, or, one where they're potent and you only have a half-god mode every so often?

You're unable to have both. ANet will never be able to hit a sweet spot where the class feels just right due to Reaper Shroud being what it is. Being able to attain1 what's practically total invulnerability for a short while is massively broken in all game modes. There's no situation where you push the limit where using Shroud is the wrong option. Close to going down in PvE and Shroud is available? Using Shroud even at the price of a rotation is the correct choice since downstate is undesirable for everyone. Having a hard time in PvP or WvW and Shroud is available? It's never the wrong choice to use Shroud since using it correctly forces the opponent to essentially waste their Skills or hold off on using them. Both options give the Reaper a respite.

Reaper will always be unbalanced as long as Shroud remains as is. Either it'll be too good or it'll be too bad. There's no middle ground. Will there be a period where the Reaper feels weak? Yes, as ANet figures out how far it can move in the new space they have, which is better than the cramped space that it has now due to Shroud taking up so much of it.

[Astralporing.1957]

Just a little heads up: basing your thesis on bad assumptions ends up with incorrect final results. Reaper shroud is not "god mode" the way you envision it - and it never was. It's just a misconception propagated by those that do not understand this class at all.

So, i suggest you get back to the drawing board.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Funky.4861]

Not sure the OP has ever played as a reaper in competitive modes. Reaper shroud goes down so quickly (pvp/wvw) and is your main damage source (pve) that you really have to build for it, sacrificing at the very least damage if not also utility in terms of gear and skills. The skills in reaper shoud itself are also melee-focussed, having one stability and one gap-closer. This generally isn't an issue in pve, but keeping opponents close enough to damage in reaper shroud  says more about them than the reaper.

[Ashen.2907]

Ive not found Reaper Shroud to be god mode. It is my least used of the elite specs for necro. 

[Zex Anthon.8673]

10 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

To improve the other skill reliably without making the spec an overpowered mess the Shroud needs to be decreased in efficiency across all game modes. Instead of, absorbing 100% of all damage taken it should only absorb 50%. This would still be a powerful protective buff when used, Shroud would last longer since it only takes half the damage, and every skill could be brought up to where it should be due to the ridiculous force multiplier of Shroud no longer being present.

Yes, this makes it different from what it used to be and it no longer becomes the insane god mode that it is. People who play Reaper ask yourself this, How would you rather the class be? One where the skills are at best whelming since you have a full god mode you can use every so often, or, one where they're potent and you only have a half-god mode every so often?

You're unable to have both. ANet will never be able to hit a sweet spot where the class feels just right due to Reaper Shroud being what it is. Being able to attain1 what's practically total invulnerability for a short while is massively broken in all game modes. There's no situation where you push the limit where using Shroud is the wrong option. Close to going down in PvE and Shroud is available? Using Shroud even at the price of a rotation is the correct choice since downstate is undesirable for everyone. Having a hard time in PvP or WvW and Shroud is available? It's never the wrong choice to use Shroud since using it correctly forces the opponent to essentially waste their Skills or hold off on using them. Both options give the Reaper a respite.

Reaper will always be unbalanced as long as Shroud remains as is. Either it'll be too good or it'll be too bad. There's no middle ground. Will there be a period where the Reaper feels weak? Yes, as ANet figures out how far it can move in the new space they have, which is better than the cramped space that it has now due to Shroud taking up so much of it.

To improve the other skill reliably without making the spec an overpowered mess the Blocks needs to be decreased in efficiency across all game modes. Instead of, absorbing 100% of all damage taken it should only absorb 50%. This would still be a powerful protective buff when used, Barrier would last longer since it only takes half the damage, and every skill could be brought up to where it should be due to the ridiculous force multiplier of Evades no longer being present.

Yes, this makes it different from what it used to be and it no longer becomes the insane god mode that it is. People who play Mesmer ask yourself this, How would you rather the class be? One where the skills are at best whelming since you have a full god mode you can use every so often, or, one where they're potent and you only have a half-god mode every so often?

You're unable to have both. ANet will never be able to hit a sweet spot where the class feels just right due to Endure Pain being what it is. Being able to attain1 what's practically total invulnerability for a short while is massively broken in all game modes. There's no situation where you push the limit where using Distortion is the wrong option. Close to going down in PvE and Elixir S is available? Using Obsidian Flesh even at the price of a rotation is the correct choice since downstate is undesirable for everyone. Having a hard time in PvP or WvW and Infuse Light is available? It's never the wrong choice to use Signet of Stone since using it correctly forces the opponent to essentially waste their Skills or hold off on using them. Both options give the Ranger a respite.

Thief will always be unbalanced as long as Dagger Storm remains as is. Either it'll be too good or it'll be too bad. There's no middle ground. Will there be a period where the Guardian feels weak? Yes, as ANet figures out how far it can move in the new space they have, which is better than the cramped space that it has now due to Renewed Focus taking up so much of it.

[Malus.2184]

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Just a little heads up: basing your thesis on bad assumptions ends up with incorrect final results. Reaper shroud is not "god mode" the way you envision it - and it never was. It's just a misconception propagated by those that do not understand this class at all.

So, i suggest you get back to the drawing board.

I agree that I used the wrong word. That does nothing to change the reality. Back when everything did the damage it was supposed to do Shroud itself moved the needle as it's an additional life bar with no cost. When the abilities were reduced the spec dropped in popularity.

The solution is to bring people up to where it was while reducing the efficiency of the Shroud.

22 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

Not sure the OP has ever played as a reaper in competitive modes. Reaper shroud goes down so quickly (pvp/wvw) and is your main damage source (pve) that you really have to build for it, sacrificing at the very least damage if not also utility in terms of gear and skills. The skills in reaper shoud itself are also melee-focussed, having one stability and one gap-closer. This generally isn't an issue in pve, but keeping opponents close enough to damage in reaper shroud  says more about them than the reaper.

Shroud goes down easily if focused, which is bad as this heavily reduces the utility of the Reaper since that's their thing. The only way to make Shroud last longer without making it disgustingly OP is to reduce the amount of damage the Shroud absorbs per hit. If it only absorbed 50% then it would last 50% longer.

17 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Ive not found Reaper Shroud to be god mode. It is my least used of the elite specs for necro. 

The least used has no impact on stuff being broken. It just means that it under- or overperforms.

[Malus.2184]

16 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

To improve the other skill reliably without making the spec an overpowered mess the Blocks needs to be decreased in efficiency across all game modes. Instead of, absorbing 100% of all damage taken it should only absorb 50%. This would still be a powerful protective buff when used, Barrier would last longer since it only takes half the damage, and every skill could be brought up to where it should be due to the ridiculous force multiplier of Evades no longer being present.

Yes, this makes it different from what it used to be and it no longer becomes the insane god mode that it is. People who play Mesmer ask yourself this, How would you rather the class be? One where the skills are at best whelming since you have a full god mode you can use every so often, or, one where they're potent and you only have a half-god mode every so often?

You're unable to have both. ANet will never be able to hit a sweet spot where the class feels just right due to Endure Pain being what it is. Being able to attain1 what's practically total invulnerability for a short while is massively broken in all game modes. There's no situation where you push the limit where using Distortion is the wrong option. Close to going down in PvE and Elixir S is available? Using Obsidian Flesh even at the price of a rotation is the correct choice since downstate is undesirable for everyone. Having a hard time in PvP or WvW and Infuse Light is available? It's never the wrong choice to use Signet of Stone since using it correctly forces the opponent to essentially waste their Skills or hold off on using them. Both options give the Ranger a respite.

Thief will always be unbalanced as long as Dagger Storm remains as is. Either it'll be too good or it'll be too bad. There's no middle ground. Will there be a period where the Guardian feels weak? Yes, as ANet figures out how far it can move in the new space they have, which is better than the cramped space that it has now due to Renewed Focus taking up so much of it.

You know, you could just write "what about" it would be more honest instead of going through all that work. Just because there are issues with Mesmers has no impact on there being issues with other classes. And if only the worst thing can be fixed first then it's a Playing on Emotions fallacy.

[Funky.4861]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

Shroud goes down easily if focused, which is bad as this heavily reduces the utility of the Reaper since that's their thing. The only way to make Shroud last longer without making it disgustingly OP is to reduce the amount of damage the Shroud absorbs per hit. If it only absorbed 50% then it would last 50% longer.

 

If shroud only absorbs half the damage the reaper would be dead; the reaper might have died anyway, but the total absence of blocks, evades and invulns on necro is intentional. Shroud is supposed to replace those things and if it doesn't then what's the point? You can't just look at shroud in a vacuum; every class has damage mitigation and it just so happens that reaper shroud is the worst of all.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

I agree that I used the wrong word. That does nothing to change the reality. Back when everything did the damage it was supposed to do Shroud itself moved the needle as it's an additional life bar with no cost.

That's (again) where you are completely wrong. There's a massive cost associated with using Shroud, you just lack the experience with the class to realize it.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Zex Anthon.8673]

5 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

You know, you could just write "what about" it would be more honest instead of going through all that work. Just because there are issues with Mesmers has no impact on there being issues with other classes. And if only the worst thing can be fixed first then it's a Playing on Emotions fallacy.

Literally every class has a superior form of defense than necro shroud. The point of my post was to highlight how ridiculous your comment was. Trust me swapping a few words around took significantly less effort than the essay you wrote whining about an underpowered spec.

[KrHome.1920]

Is the OP new to the game?

Reaper, core necro and warrior + its elite specs are the only remaining specs with clearly defined counters. All other specs (yes even scourge) are so bloated that you basically can just beat them by outbuilding but not outplaying them. Is this what this game should be about? 100% rock paper scissors? I don't think so. All these mechanics and elite specs and playstyles would be pointless - at least in the competitive modes.

Counters to reaper (referring to shroud as a "full god mode"):

Reaper is not in shroud: melee burst to not get wrecked by axe/focus

Reaper is in shroud with spectral armor popped: kite its 5% shroud degeneration

Reaper is in shroud without spectral armor popped: stunlock+melee burst or ranged burst or kite its 5% shroud degeneration

That's it. That's all you need to know. That's how I beat 10 out of 10 reaper players.

Edited April 24, 2023 by KrHome.1920

[The Boz.2038]

22 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

an additional life bar with no cost

Lol.

Rofl, even.

Bad analysis based on bad data leads to bad ideas.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Malus.2184

Let me go into more detail about my previous response to you. Specifically, let me go into the costs of using shroud.

As defensive mechanics go, additional HPs are the weakest option compared to blocks, invulns and evades. So, in a way, the very existence of shroud is already its greatest (but, by no mean the only) cost. But let's not stop at that, and look more in detail on how this mechanic works:

1. Apart from Shroud (and dodges, which are available to everyone), out of all classes Reaper has the least amount of defensive options available. So, if you want to weaken defence capabilities of shroud, you need to give Necromancers more of other defensive utilities (blocks/invulns/evades, stunbreaks, etc) in exchange.

2. Shroud disables utility skill use, so, when in use, prevents reaper from using the very few of other defensive mechanics it might have. If you want to weaken shroud, you need to enable utility use in it first.

3. Shroud prevents Reaper from healing (and being healed). So, if you want to weaken it, you need to enable in-shroud healing first.

4. Shroud, apart from being a defensive mechanic, is also significantly tied to Reaper's dps output and dps rotation. That alone is the greatest balancing factor to it - if you want to use its defensive options, you have to sacrifice dps for it. Your method of extending the dps window might have been balanced if we were considering that one factor alone. It's massively flawed however because it does nothing to address the issues from points 1-3.

TL/DR;

Shroud is already balanced as far as gains and costs are considered (and, in fact, the costs might currently be higher than the gains). Attempts to "fix" Shroud that do not consider those balance issues can only result in hurting an already weak class. And, unfortunately, Shroud reworks that would address those issues would, by necessity, end up being an absolutely massive class redesign.

Necro class design is, unfortunately, a massive Jenga-like costruct where everything is propped up precariously on the Shroud mechanic. Yes, it is an absolute mess, but any attempt at carelessly adjusting the core of that mess (Shroud), instead of helping will just make the whole construct fall apart. I'm sorry to say, that your suggestion would be exactly one such careless attempt that would break way more things than it would fix.

[Dadnir.5038]

I won't say that the OP is right and I do beieve that there isn't really any hope for anything to be done to the shroud after7-8 years. That said:

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

1. Apart from Shroud (and dodges, which are available to everyone), out of all classes Reaper has the least amount of defensive options available. So, if you want to weaken defence capabilities of shroud, you need to give Necromancers more of other defensive utilities (blocks/invulns/evades, stunbreaks, etc) in exchange.

This point is arguable. At the very least you're already forgeting about blind and, furthermore, reaper have access to a lot of damage reduction mods (be it protection, weakness, "Rise!", shroud's natural damage reduction, infusing terror or the occasional frost aura.). If a player really want it, it's easy to keep up 50% damage reduction out of shroud, 65% damage reduction in shroud (75% in competitive modes) and have some occasional peak of damage reduction going as high as 75% damage reduction already in PvE and 20% in competitive (next pacth seemingly pushing these peak to somewhere close to 90% damage reduction in PvE). Add weakness to this to get some lucky extra damage reduction.

NB.: I'm not even taking into account food or the possibility to add toughness.

 

You're right on your other points thought.

I'd add 1 point which is specific to PvE boss fight. Some mechanics deal damage that remove a % of the health pool instead of dealing regular damage and these mechanics aren't affected by damage reduction mods. As such it impact reaper negatively.

[captrowdy.9561]

How much have you played reaper? We have very little forms of avoiding dmg. Hell even cc. 

[Obtena.7952]

Oh, so many wrongs here ... and even if they were right, the suggestion doesn't make much sense either. 

[Dadnir.5038]

13 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

How much have you played reaper? We have very little forms of avoiding dmg. Hell even cc. 

Do you realize that reaper is the necromancer's specialization that have the most way to deal with CC? Infusing terror alone give you 3 stacks of stab on a 20ish second CD with 0 investment. If you want more stab, there is "chilled to the bone!". "You are all weakling!" is a 20s CD breakstun that apply weakness around you on top of giving you up to 18 might stacks. Very few specs offer that much counter to CC.

Fact is that players are so obsessed by the reaper's PvE dps build that they have no clue of what the reaper truly have as defensive tools. Similarly, Elementalist's players have been sleeping on Stone heart for 7 years before realizing how strong it is, for 7 years they used the argument "How much have you played elementalist" to point out that it was ridiculous to even think of using Stone heart.

[Malus.2184]

On 4/23/2023 at 7:41 PM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Literally every class has a superior form of defense than necro shroud. The point of my post was to highlight how ridiculous your comment was. Trust me swapping a few words around took significantly less effort than the essay you wrote whining about an underpowered spec.

You just literally did a "what about." This subject is about Reaper alone and nothing else. The purpose of this is about Reaper. Do others have issues? Yes. Are they the subject of this, or should they serve as a derailment of the topic? No.

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, Malus.2184 said:

You just literally did a "what about." This subject is about Reaper alone and nothing else. The purpose of this is about Reaper. Do others have issues? Yes. Are they the subject of this, or should they serve as a derailment of the topic? No.

Lol. Rofl, even.
You can't talk balance in a vacuum, you utter redditor.

[Malus.2184]

On 4/23/2023 at 3:12 PM, Funky.4861 said:

If shroud only absorbs half the damage the reaper would be dead; the reaper might have died anyway, but the total absence of blocks, evades and invulns on necro is intentional. Shroud is supposed to replace those things and if it doesn't then what's the point? You can't just look at shroud in a vacuum; every class has damage mitigation and it just so happens that reaper shroud is the worst of all.

And you're completely unable to imagine that Reaper should have those things to compensate. Look at it holistically. If something is lost other things have to be gained. Right now the Reaper Shroud is so potentially strong that it can get none of those things since they would make the Shroud massively OP.

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, Malus.2184 said:

And you're completely unable to imagine that Reaper should have those things to compensate. Look at it holistically. If something is lost other things have to be gained. Right now the Reaper Shroud is so potentially strong that it can get none of those things since they would make the Shroud massively OP.

What Reaper needs is a holistic redesign of many of its features. What it does not need is a slap-dash "fix" that breaks things without actually fixing anything.

[Malus.2184]

19 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

As defensive mechanics go, additional HPs are the weakest option compared to blocks, invulns and evades.

How did you reach this conclusion? While Shrouyd is an additional life bar it's effectively a barrier of the same amount as the Life Force used when it's invoked. And Barriers are by far considered stronger than blocks and evades, with invuls being on the same level except in the case of Shroud they can potentially last longer or shorter.

 

19 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

1. Apart from Shroud (and dodges, which are available to everyone), out of all classes Reaper has the least amount of defensive options available. So, if you want to weaken defence capabilities of shroud, you need to give Necromancers more of other defensive utilities (blocks/invulns/evades, stunbreaks, etc) in exchange.

Yes, imagine if it had any. They would make the Shroud unimaginably strong. Because Shroud is so unimaginably and potentially powerful by the sheer game balance they're unable to get those things since else they would be way too OP. If Shroud was weaker then all those things could potentially be given to Reaper which would overall make them stronger.

I see this argument often that nothing should be done about Shroud because it's already so weak. This shows an inability to look at it holistically and failing to understand the reason Reaper has poor mitigation tools aside from Shroud.

19 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

2. Shroud disables utility skill use, so, when in use, prevents reaper from using the very few of other defensive mechanics it might have. If you want to weaken shroud, you need to enable utility use in it first.

It has to be because the Shroud in itself is a defensive/offensive utility. Harbinger Shroud brings amazing offensive utility and has Utility Skills that are meant to be used proactively before entering the Shroud. Scourge can still use Utility Skill while it has its version of Shroud up since it's inherently weaker than Reaper Shroud. 

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

ow did you reach this conclusion? While Shrouyd is an additional life bar it's effectively a barrier of the same amount as the Life Force used when it's invoked. And Barriers are by far considered stronger than blocks and evades, with invuls being on the same level except in the case of Shroud they can potentially last longer or shorter.

Barriers are considered superior because they protect your health while lessening incoming damage and allowing you to regen and heal while they are up. Additionally, they can be put up by another player, and do not interfere with your utility bar, or our weapon. Shroud does not allow you to regen and heal while it is up, aside from one super-weak trait, blocks use of utility skills, and swaps you into melee.

[The Boz.2038]

5 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

It has to be because the Shroud in itself is a defensive/offensive utility. Harbinger Shroud brings amazing offensive utility and has Utility Skills that are meant to be used proactively before entering the Shroud. Scourge can still use Utility Skill while it has its version of Shroud up since it's inherently weaker than Reaper Shroud. 

Something something "what about".

[Nimon.7840]

52 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Do you realize that reaper is the necromancer's specialization that have the most way to deal with CC? Infusing terror alone give you 3 stacks of stab on a 20ish second CD with 0 investment. If you want more stab, there is "chilled to the bone!". "You are all weakling!" is a 20s CD breakstun that apply weakness around you on top of giving you up to 18 might stacks. Very few specs offer that much counter to CC.

Fact is that players are so obsessed by the reaper's PvE dps build that they have no clue of what the reaper truly have as defensive tools. Similarly, Elementalist's players have been sleeping on Stone heart for 7 years before realizing how strong it is, for 7 years they used the argument "How much have you played elementalist" to point out that it was ridiculous to even think of using Stone heart.

In PvE: yes I totally agree.

Problem: Necro in general basically always picks spectral walk and wurm for mobility in competitive modes be it spvp or roaming in wvw.

It kinda doesn't matter if yaaw is good, most of the times you just don't have space on your bar for it.

 

Its funny, I was messing with a shout reaper in roaming wvw (solo) this weekend. I took as many shouts as possible:

Heal: is fine

Elite: is fine, very good to bait dodges.

Everything else: meh.

I started with all shouts, except "rise"

And quickly switched out ncsy because I played promancer anyways. (Spite curses reaper)

-> spectral walk made it in

Suffer was fine since I often got ganked by multiple enemies, applying various conditions. If there was only one enemy, it felt like suffer did nothing.

And yaaw was weak. I just kept it because I played celestial promancer with reaper rune, to apply chill-> bleed and vulnerability.

Else I would have immediately swapped it for spectral armor or wurm.