Next Expansion, no Elite specs but?

[Lily.1935]

41 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

     I have the opposite feeling. It would actually get me to play the game more because I now have access to weapons I have wanted to use for a long time, but I couldn't use them because their damage was bad. It would make me more interested in playing the game. Again with my example from the necro forum, if they changed P/P Thief with new skills with their new direction under Deadeye for example to be meta instance level. It would make me spend more money and time on the game because the true gunslinger theme finally came to be. I don't think I am the only one either with caring more about weapon theme overall.

     Now, I am not saying don't add new weapons because that would be great, but I really do think they need to focus and fix the old stuff first before they even attempt at adding new weapons. Some of these have been in need for a rework for a long time now.

Reworking weapons isn't an expansion feature though. That's a basic part of a life service game like an MMO. That stuff just needs to be done.

Also, Necromancer Pistol is perfectly fine as it is. The damage output is pretty comparable to Scepter. Scepter is a little bit stronger while traited. But its not like weapon swapping is locked. So there's no reason not to take both. Pistol you can get 2 skill twos in before swapping so its just a matter of optimization. You honestly could just run pistol if you really wanted to and it'd likely be fine. you damage will take a hit but it shouldn't be major enough to get you kicked from a group. If you want to run just pistol and parasitic contagion, do it. Run different sigils in your off pistol and warhorn, you can still get quite a bit of value from swapping.

I'm saying this as a raider. You'll be fine to just run pistol if you don't want to run scepter. as long as you know the basics of the rotation you're golden.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Lily.1935

[Doctor Hide.6345]

36 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

Reworking weapons isn't an expansion feature though. That's a basic part of a life service game like an MMO. That stuff just needs to be done.

Also, Necromancer Pistol is perfectly fine as it is. The damage output is pretty comparable to Scepter. Scepter is a little bit stronger while traited. But its not like weapon swapping is locked. So there's no reason not to take both. Pistol you can get 2 skill twos in before swapping so its just a matter of optimization. You honestly could just run pistol if you really wanted to and it'd likely be fine. you damage will take a hit but it shouldn't be major enough to get you kicked from a group. If you want to run just pistol and parasitic contagion, do it. Run different sigils in your off pistol and warhorn, you can still get quite a bit of value from swapping.

I'm saying this as a raider. You'll be fine to just run pistol if you don't want to run scepter. as long as you know the basics of the rotation you're golden.

     Well, I was mainly talking Thief P/P there for that example. And for me at least, reworking old weapons to be good is an expansion feature because it has been neglected over the years to the point some are just laughing stocks. I don't think it will be done though normally with their track record without it being an expansion feature. It would have been done now  if that was their focus.

     I will use another game as an example for a new combat rebuild. FF14 reworked many jobs that were underperforming or messed up(MCH and SMN) , and they always did the major reworks under expansions for the benefit of showing stuff getting fixed and to save money. Getting the weapons that are lackluster now totally reworked would be an expansion level thing, and it would excite many people who have been asking for it for years. You don't always need new weapons to excite people especially if you are rebuilding weapons which is basically like a new class in other MMOs.

     I have accepted the scepter for necro even if I would prefer the other. It doesn't bug me that much that I can't use it. So, I am ok with where it is at because it is not getting nerfed. My wish to change it is based more on wish feeling. I don't expect them to ever do it because of its meta status. I don't expect them to change that for an expansion. My issue is primarily with P/P Thief because of it's meme status which I want removed which is something the rework could fix basically making it a new playstyle.

     They have failed in their balance job with a lot of traits and weapons. I want them to fix that mistake first before they even attempt new stuff. You need a solid foundation before you can move on, and in my eyes, the current foundation is cracked and broken. They have not done the patches justice over the years, so I would rather they focus expansion energy and use that to fix it if it means it will actually get fixed. I wouldn't see it as a waste at all.

[Lily.1935]

20 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     Well, I was mainly talking Thief P/P there for that example. And for me at least, reworking old weapons to be good is an expansion feature because it has been neglected over the years to the point some are just laughing stocks. I don't think it will be done though normally with their track record without it being an expansion feature. It would have been done now  if that was their focus.

     I will use another game as an example for a new combat rebuild. FF14 reworked many jobs that were underperforming or messed up(MCH and SMN) , and they always did the major reworks under expansions for the benefit of showing stuff getting fixed and to save money. Getting the weapons that are lackluster now totally reworked would be an expansion level thing, and it would excite many people who have been asking for it for years. You don't always need new weapons to excite people especially if you are rebuilding weapons which is basically like a new class in other MMOs.

     I have accepted the scepter for necro even if I would prefer the other. It doesn't bug me that much that I can't use it. So, I am ok with where it is at because it is not getting nerfed. My wish to change it is based more on wish feeling. I don't expect them to ever do it because of its meta status. I don't expect them to change that for an expansion. My issue is primarily with P/P Thief because of it's meme status which I want removed which is something the rework could fix basically making it a new playstyle.

     They have failed in their balance job with a lot of traits and weapons. I want them to fix that mistake first before they even attempt new stuff. You need a solid foundation before you can move on, and in my eyes, the current foundation is cracked and broken. They have not done the patches justice over the years, so I would rather they focus expansion energy and use that to fix it if it means it will actually get fixed. I wouldn't see it as a waste at all.

Final Fantasy 14 Also introduces new combat features in their expansions. Simply updating the available classes wasn't enough. Guild Wars 2 has expanded the classes traditionally through Elite specs. And with the expansion we're taking a step back from elite specs and likely going to add new skills, weapons and or traits. And this is something that Final Fantasy 14 does similar. FF14 wants you to play multiple classes though, its not like GW2 where one class has dozens of different builds, every class is a single build. So When FF14 has an expansion they always add new classes because that's their chosen combat feature. Iteration on existing classes isn't enough even in their model.

1. Heavensward introduced Dark Knight, Astrologian, and Machinist
2. Stormblood introduced Red Mage, Samurai, and Blue Mage
3. Shadowbringers introduced Gunbreaker and Dancer
4. Endwalker introduced Sage and Reaper

Not even for FF14 is just reworks enough for their expansions. And we can't expect it to be enough for Guild Wars 2 either. Reworks are great, but that's not a feature onto itself. That's just maintenance of the game that is required.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 Well, I was mainly talking Thief P/P there for that example. And for me at least, reworking old weapons to be good is an expansion feature because it has been neglected over the years to the point some are just laughing stocks

Reworking core weapons literally can't be an expansion feature.

Expansion feature means that it is something you just and only get access to if you buy the expansion. Elite specs are an example of expansion features, because if you didn't buy their corresponding expansion, you simply can't use them.

A weapon rework for core weapons can't be that. To make a core weapon rework an expansion feature, you would have to lock this rework behind the paywall, which would be dumb. Are all the people who didn't buy the expansion then still playing with the not-reworked version of the weapons and everyone who bought it gets the new set? That's obviously not going to happen.

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

Why use old weapons than? Why not just give them access to weapons they don't have access to? Seems like that'd be a better solution. It would help to increase play time in the game. Like if I got a sword on my necromancer or a Longbow on my engineer that would incentivize me to play more to get either the right skin, ascended version or legendary version. Which translates to more play time. If they just give us the same weapons but not unlocked for core with new abilities it doesn't get me to play to craft these new weapons. i'll play to test them out for sure, but that's few hours in game overall.

At least that's my perspective on that.

Sure ... I mean, as far as I'm concerned, the information we got basically says "anything can happen" so build diversity could go either way but I'm skeptical as well. 

Reworking weapons isn't an expansion feature? I don't know about that ... if it brings something new to the specs that changes how I think about playing them or adds options for players, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think it would be a hard sell from a marketing POV because sure ... it's a rework and most MMO players don't regard that as 'new' content. For me, it wouldn't be any different than what happened to Lion's Arch in the storyline. 

I mean, if Anet took very underused weapons, changed their skills to make them appropriate for a spec, that's a big door that opens up for what you can do on a spec. As always, it will come down to how much people value that and what they are willing to pay. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Burnfall.9573]

Right now, everything, Weapons, runes, sigils, Profession designs, Profession Elite Specializations....are connected to Profession roles with their identities. 

It is a complete mess; every Professions can mix-match other Professions by equipping weapons, runes, sigils to itself. 

Why non condition role Professions are using condition runes and sigils like Necromancer Profession

Why non-healing role Professions are using healing runes and sigils instead of healer role Professions like Guardian Profession?

Not even to mention how certain Professions Elite like Guardian Profession: Willbender and Elementalism Profession, are designed specifically, to play and fill in many other Profession roles....with excellence.

----here are some of my proposal---

-Conditions will be reworked and be assigned to their appropriate Profession.

-Range will  be reworked and limited to all Professions except Ranger Profession; with having1200+ range

-Power damage will be reworked and assigned to their appropriate Profession 

- All Pull mechanics, skills and designs are completely removed

--All critic stats are completely removed Profession traits

--No weapons will no longer grant teleporting like Thief Profession-Shadow step

-Mesmer Profession and Elementalist Profession to be completely reworked

-Thief Profession trait line will have 2 second cool-down.

-One shot builds will completely be completely destroyed

-Power Creep will be scaled back

-Every Profession roles with their Identities will be strictly enforced

-No longer will be any casting  skills, mechanics behind the Profession

-No longer traps will remain on the ground for more than 2 seconds

-No longer there will be any stacking of skills, mechanics, conditions etc...

-Necromancer Profession minion, will be immune from any damages

-All stats will be reworked and assigned to their appropriate Profession 

-All skills mechanics, stats, will be on internal cool-down

-Risk factor will be enforced in to all weapons stats, skills, mechanics and to Profession design; in other word...Spamming will be eliminated.

Etc...continual improvement

-----------------------------------------------------

Moving forward...

if by withholding any new Profession Elite to "clean up the house" before  releasing......there is hope.

It is going to take a lot of change with a lot of losses. Runes, Sigils, weapons will need to be completely reworked to be used with their appropriate Profession.

Guardian Profession; Willbender role, will be completely reworked to strictly assigned only to... healing and support. Nothing else, Nothing more. 

Access to Stealth mechanic, will be completely removed from all runes, form other Professions and to be strictly assigned only to Thief Profession. 

PERIOD!!

With similar assignments to their appropriate Professions with their roles and to their idenitty.

---If this is what Anet has in mind, than it is worth the hold on new Profession Elite Specializations.

If not; there is no saving for the game thus the game is Forever Dead!!

Edited May 5, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Sobx.1758]

14 hours ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

And for me at least, reworking old weapons to be good is an expansion feature because it has been neglected over the years to the point some are just laughing stocks

That doesn't make much sense. Something isn't "an expansion feature" because you want it a lot -which is basically what you're saying here. If you wanted weapon reworks to be expansion features, it would mean different versions for core and expansion versions of the game, which doesn't seem to be a valid solution for what is being described here. Weapon rework is just a weapon rework.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

14 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Reworking core weapons literally can't be an expansion feature.

Expansion feature means that it is something you just and only get access to if you buy the expansion. Elite specs are an example of expansion features, because if you didn't buy their corresponding expansion, you simply can't use them.

A weapon rework for core weapons can't be that. To make a core weapon rework an expansion feature, you would have to lock this rework behind the paywall, which would be dumb. Are all the people who didn't buy the expansion then still playing with the not-reworked version of the weapons and everyone who bought it gets the new set? That's obviously not going to happen.

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That doesn't make much sense. Something isn't "an expansion feature" because you want it a lot -which is basically what you're saying here. If you wanted weapon reworks to be expansion features, it would mean different versions for core and expansion versions of the game, which doesn't seem to be a valid solution for what is being described here. Weapon rework is just a weapon rework.

I think there is a disconnect here. When players are asking for broad reworks or balance passes for existing weapons with the next expansion, I don't think they are asking for exclusive expansion features available only for those who purchase the expansion. They are actually asking for core features and polish to be released with the expansion in the place of elite specs.

This is not unwarranted. Overarching balance features and world polish that affect both core and expansion content have been released with every expansion so far. A broad pass at core weapons may be a bit more ambitious than the updates to core content with previous expansions, but still much less content than entire elite specs and not unprecedented.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

 

I think there is a disconnect here. When players are asking for broad reworks or balance passes for existing weapons with the next expansion, I don't think they are asking for exclusive expansion features available only for those who purchase the expansion. They are actually asking for core features and polish to be released with the expansion in the place of elite specs.

This is not unwarranted. Overarching balance features and world polish that affect both core and expansion content have been released with every expansion so far. A broad pass at core weapons may be a bit more ambitious than the updates to core content with previous expansions, but still much less content than entire elite specs and not unprecedented.

     Thank you. This is what I was trying to get at with my posts. 

Edit: I would be 100% ok if they fixed core weapons and stuff and added no new weapons. It would still give the variety of building they promised by making old stuff actually be useable which makes it in a newer state especially if it was total reworks. And yes. everyone who didn't buy it would also get the update for the weapons which I am also ok with. It would bring in a breath of fresh air to the game and builds. 

     The other stuff of the expansion can be the selling points for all I care. I am just tired of unused weapons being left in the dust after all these years. So if they are focusing on combat with new energy, I would prefer they use that energy at least for the first expansion on fixing their past mistakes with full gusto instead of adding new weapons which might not even be used.

Edit 2: 

In the current design and implementation of elite specializations, we feel that with every new expansion there’s been increasingly limited “design space” left to add new and differentiated roles for each profession. In other words, most of the playstyles that we’d like to see supported for each profession already exist or should exist within their existing elite specialization options.

With our next expansion, our goal is to further augment the combat options for each profession by adding new tools to their arsenal and by lifting constraints that will unlock an unprecedented number of playstyle customization options—while keeping the feel of Guild Wars 2 combat true to its origins. Theorycrafters are going to be very busy.

     So, no where does it say in that post it is going to be  expansion only content with the combat features making what I am asking a possibility. Yes, Elite specs have been expansion only for the past 3, but that doesn't mean the newer ones are going to be that way. They could very well mean fixing the old core stuff. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Doctor Hide.6345

[draxynnic.3719]

On 5/5/2023 at 7:27 AM, Lily.1935 said:

I think some weapons are actually quite well balanced against each other. I use necromancer as the example because its what I know best. But going to the Scepter and Pistol example, they're pretty close to each other which is why you'd use both on any condi build. And they're really well suited for both scourge and harbinger especially.

For engineer, there's fewer options but a power mechanist, power holosmith would be happy to run hammer over their respective weapons or rifle. Rifle would still be used, but hammer is really great for those melee fights. Other classes I'm not as confident with. Revenant probably wouldn't change much from where it is now.

I Don't really think these are the design constraints they're talking about though. Would it be fun to play with it? sure. Would it keep theory crafters very busy? No. And I think Arena net know that, they're better at the math than I am and I've basically solved how the weapons would be used if they became core for necromancer and its not even a thing at the moment.

Revenant would probably abandon hammer altogether except in WvW unless it gets a significant rework.

Condition guardians would switch to axe (probably especially willbender, since it has a fair amount of mobility without needing the mainhand sword).

Warrior probably wouldn't change much, although pistol might become prevalent for power builds - I haven't seen numbers on how well that works as an offhand without bladeworn stuff.

Ranger probably wouldn't change much. Some non-soulbeast condi builds might use dagger.

Thief wouldn't obviously change too much. People would experiment, but I don't think the elite spec weapons are likely to become dominant off-spec.

Condition mesmers would probably use axe unless they're virtuosos. Shield on virtuoso would be sickening, and shield on mirage would probably destroy any hope of getting the second dodge back.

For elementalist, tempest might consider using sword. Warhorn would be another offhand option for non-tempest builds, but I don't think it's likely to become dominant. Hammer might get some niche use where being mostly melee but having better 600 range capability than dagger is worthwhile, although weaver would need new dual-attunement skills.

 

Generally speaking, though, I think it is a bad idea.

 

On 5/4/2023 at 3:19 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Of course it's absurd. Anyone making even a cursory look on elite specs we received so far would know that the idea of them expanding roles is not heavily supported by design. Sure, some do that, but so far most of them were just doing something the base profession (and/or earlier especs) could already do... just better. Or differently.

You've already brought up ele and warrior, but their especs are hardly alone in that. Druid may be offering a new role for Rangers, but Soulbeast and Untamed are just flat out upgrades to core, nothing else. Same with Thief and Daredevil/Deadeye. Similarily, Dragonhunter and Firebrand just build up on ideas of core Guardian (with one going the dps route, and other concentrating more on support). And so on, and so on.

It's not like Anet says there's no point in further especs. In reality, it's just them saying they do not want to make more especs. And it's not like i can't understand them - it's a lot of work, and each time they add a new espec batch, they complicate the work of balance team by a lot. Honestly, it would probably have been better for them to make new professions, but by now it's not very likely (as they'd have to design not only a new profession, but 3 especs to it a the same time). Although, it would probably still be easier (and less impacting on balance) than doing new espec set.

They only very rarely straight out close the door on something. Most of the time stuff will be officially left "on the table", even if they personally know it will never be touched again.

I generally do consider doubling down on something that the profession already does to be a sufficient distinction. Firebrand, for instance, turned guardian from being awkwardly loaded with support options but not really truly viable as support by Heart of Thorns standards into a support powerhouse, while tome play is a very different style to core guardian even when playing pure DPS. ArenaNet did talk about playstyles, so 'same role, different playstyle' is something that they do appear to consider reasonable.

That said, when I brought up ele and war, that wasn't intended to be an exhaustive list. They're just the most egregious cases of "how could anyone look at this and claim they have everything covered?" (Which, for the record, ArenaNet isn't claiming.)

My interpretation remains that they simply don't want to have their expansion release schedule held hostage to how quickly they can produce new elite specialisations. They seem to be aiming towards under two years between expansions (reading between the lines of what they've said implies an expansion before the end of the year), and if that is the goal, then a full set of elite specialisations with each expansion probably was genuinely untenable.

[Obtena.7952]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:37 AM, Lily.1935 said:

Why use old weapons than? Why not just give them access to weapons they don't have access to? Seems like that'd be a better solution. It would help to increase play time in the game. Like if I got a sword on my necromancer or a Longbow on my engineer that would incentivize me to play more to get either the right skin, ascended version or legendary version. Which translates to more play time. If they just give us the same weapons but not unlocked for core with new abilities it doesn't get me to play to craft these new weapons. i'll play to test them out for sure, but that's few hours in game overall.

At least that's my perspective on that.

Sure they could. Not arguing what Anet could or could not do. They could do anything. I'm just saying that there are opportunities for Anet to expand diversity over a class by making weapon skills spec-dependent within it. 

Also, it's worth considering that theme is still a valid reason for Anet to restrict how they choose to manipulate existing features in the game. I just think that HOWEVER Anet changes something, it's new content if it changes how I play a class/spec. That could easily include adding new weapons  to a class or weapons skills being spec-dependent. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[ventress.4879]

We will probably get one more core weapon for each class and we will get the missing core utilities. 

I would also like to see all elite specialisation weapons available for other elite/core with there mechanic removed. Vice versa they should add mechanics to all weapons that get modified by the elite specialisation you pick. 

I mean we already have ambushes all weapons for the classes that have that mechanic why can't Heat (Holo smith) be on every weapon. Even something like the Chronomancer Grandmaster applying to Sword or Focus 5 skills. Chronophantasma technically does so why not the support Grandmasters. 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

On 5/5/2023 at 2:38 AM, Lily.1935 said:

Final Fantasy 14 Also introduces new combat features in their expansions. Simply updating the available classes wasn't enough. Guild Wars 2 has expanded the classes traditionally through Elite specs. And with the expansion we're taking a step back from elite specs and likely going to add new skills, weapons and or traits. And this is something that Final Fantasy 14 does similar. FF14 wants you to play multiple classes though, its not like GW2 where one class has dozens of different builds, every class is a single build. So When FF14 has an expansion they always add new classes because that's their chosen combat feature. Iteration on existing classes isn't enough even in their model.

1. Heavensward introduced Dark Knight, Astrologian, and Machinist
2. Stormblood introduced Red Mage, Samurai, and Blue Mage
3. Shadowbringers introduced Gunbreaker and Dancer
4. Endwalker introduced Sage and Reaper

Not even for FF14 is just reworks enough for their expansions. And we can't expect it to be enough for Guild Wars 2 either. Reworks are great, but that's not a feature onto itself. That's just maintenance of the game that is required.

     What you are saying is true with them adding other stuff plus the reworks, but I think GW2 should be different in this regard mainly because of how big their team is and how slow they put out content. Don't get me wrong, if they were capable of adding new weapons and reworking on the scale needed to fix to the core stuff I would be all for it. I just don't see it though from past experiences and content output. Reworking core weapons and some trait is basically the same as working new elites resource wise, so I would rather they focus on doing just that for the first expansion to set the ground work for the next ones. Because I don't see them putting that much resources into core reworks and new weapons and traits etc... 

     In my eyes, this is pick which one you would prefer they do, and I prefer the rework side. Yes, it's not a direct expansion feature in that it is exclusive to the expansion you buying since it would affect all of the game at the same time, but I truly do think it is needed to come with the expansion because that is when resources are strongest for it. The normal balance patches is usually just numbers and not much reworks. The only thing I can think of is the engi rifle in the past few years, and people have been asking for them to make it better even longer. I don't know how many active team members there are on the combat side, but I think normal patches won't work with the resources they normally have which only really leaves expansion resources to fix all that is needed animation wise and everything else. Numbers is fine though with the smaller patches.

[The Boz.2038]

8 hours ago, ventress.4879 said:

We will probably get one more core weapon for each class and we will get the missing core utilities. 

Engineer and Revenant throw a massive wrench into the innards of that plan, because as much as I'd want them to, I do not see ANet releasing an entire new Legend and whatever the hell many skills Engineer is missing, without it being a "big release". And at that point, weapon + Legend is70% of an e-spec already...

Not saying impossible, but... feels awkward, man.

[SRMorgan.6124]

I've been wondering if they won't just open both the elite spec weapons and underwater weapons for general, core profession use, with certain skill reworks to balance them out. Technically speaking, this will cover all of their hints at the blog post, since theorycrafters will be busy deciding if staff/trident mirage is better than staff/staff mirage 😂 Perhaps they can amend some skills to have overland versions, much like some of the current ones have underwater ones. And if, for Warriors/Thiefs especially, they change spear to a one hand weapon, that will open possibilities for builds... It also means they can add legendary variants to the underwater weapons, which will then cover their legendary requirements for the ex pac. It's a bit of a lazy solution, but also one where they can easily point out that every class now has access to tons of new skills and builds. If they also give us a new traitline and/or Elite with the weapons, that can relatively easily be sold as expansion level content, even though it technically is just rehashed old content. 
P.S. At least the 10 people who have legendary underwater weapons can then laugh at the rest of us and salute their foresight!

Edited May 8, 2023 by SRMorgan.6124

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Engineer and Revenant throw a massive wrench into the innards of that plan, because as much as I'd want them to, I do not see ANet releasing an entire new Legend and whatever the hell many skills Engineer is missing, without it being a "big release". And at that point, weapon + Legend is70% of an e-spec already...

Not saying impossible, but... feels awkward, man.

A new core weapon for revenant would not need to come with a new legend. It could just be like spear and trident in that it reflects the revenant's general abilities with manipulating the Mists in an offensive manner without being specifically linked to a legend.

Could even change its effects slightly depending on the legend being channelled, like trident does.

I don't even know how you could see another weapon for engineer being more complex than creating 3-5 skills for the weapon.

And the truly ironic thing here is that they're the two professions that probably need another core weapon the most.

[Moradorin.6217]

On 5/2/2023 at 12:28 PM, Moradorin.6217 said:

I mean if they cannot actually balance and fix the especs from PoF why make more specs??

 

For those who would say the pof specs are fine I would just say:

 

Mirage

Since is, somehow, getting confused from people still let me elaborate.

 

Mirage was made as a class with a special dodge as the main benefit/point of playing Mirage over Mesmer, Chrono and now Virt. When a Mirage hits dodge it doesnt move or dodge role. Instead it gets Mirage Cloak (MC) effect. It was said to be hard to balance aspects of the MC effect like keeping players from hitting dodge while stunned, for instance. This was because it replaces normal dodge combined with how the game code is set up. This was a point of complaint for PvP/WvW but not really PvE. To fix the problem a simple solution was used that removes one dodge from Mirage leaving it a single dodge, BUT only in pvp/wvw. So if you are playing pve and que up for pvp or you like to pop into wvw and run around between events/raids your number of dodges flat out changes. Nothing else about the class JUST your number of dodges. Furthermore, special dodge IS the point of Mirage. It has horrible continuity and goes unplayed for the most part in wvw due to this.

 

It was a lazy fix that is inconsistent with the rest of the game. It was a lazy quick fix. It has never been properly balanced or even addressed.

Therefore, I would argue the idea of adding yet more specs to the game when they STILL cannot manage to balance and deal with the ones from 2 expansions ago would be a bad idea.

In other words, I think Anet needs to learn to deal with and manage the specs we already have before adding more complexity sounds like a good idea.

[The Boz.2038]

39 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

A new core weapon for revenant would not need to come with a new legend.

If people clamor for new missing skills, surely Engie and Rev would get something, too. Right?
And Rev can only get *an entire new legend*. No piece-meal, one-skill-per-release trickle.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

If people clamor for new missing skills, surely Engie and Rev would get something, too. Right?
And Rev can only get *an entire new legend*. No piece-meal, one-skill-per-release trickle.

Well, they could let rev use racial skills (and that core collection edition elite) 😛

[The Boz.2038]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, they could let rev use racial skills (and that core collection edition elite) 😛

...and how would that work? What would the rest of your bar be?

Any answer is, I think, elite-spec-level redesign.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

...and how would that work? What would the rest of your bar be?

Any answer is, I think, elite-spec-level redesign.

There are two options here. Either the non-legend skills would not switch changing legends, or they'd be selected "into" the bar for a specific legend. In both cases they'd replace a normal legend utility/elite (in one case for both legends, in second individually, on per-legend basis).

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

If people clamor for new missing skills, surely Engie and Rev would get something, too. Right?
And Rev can only get *an entire new legend*. No piece-meal, one-skill-per-release trickle.

If it's new skills specifically, then a legend would be roughly on par with doing a set of skills for another profession as long as the legend is something that would work with Invocation. I nominate Odran as Legendary Mistwalker.

I still don't see how engineer is somehow more difficult to add more skills to. Is it the toolbelt skills? No different to an elementalist weapon requiring quadrupal the number of new skills.

[Kodama.6453]

10 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If it's new skills specifically, then a legend would be roughly on par with doing a set of skills for another profession as long as the legend is something that would work with Invocation. I nominate Odran as Legendary Mistwalker.

I still don't see how engineer is somehow more difficult to add more skills to. Is it the toolbelt skills? No different to an elementalist weapon requiring quadrupal the number of new skills.

Their comment is related to the request of many players to "fill the holes" in classes.

Other classes are missing 2 elite skills from their pool of core utility skill types and 1 healing skill.
Guardian: needs healing spirit weapon (shelter can get reworked into a consecration), elite spirit weapon and elite consecration
Warrior: needs healing banner, elite stance and elite shout
Ranger: needs healing signet, elite signet and elite trap
Thief: needs healing preparation, elite preparation and elite signet
Elementalist: needs healing conjure, elite arcane and elite signet
Mesmer: needs healing glamour (ether feast can get reworked into a clone), elite clone and elite mantra
Necromancer: needs healing spectral, elite well and elite signet

The difference for engineer is that there really is just one of these holes in the core class, because their number of skill types is different than for others. The only "open spot" for engineer is that of an elite gadget.

All the other classes have 5 different skill types with 4 utility skills each (+ healing and elite skills of that type, if available).
Engineer on the other hand just has 4 different skill types but with 5 utility skills each (+ healing and elite skills).

That's one problem I repeatedly point out whenever it's suggested that anet "fills the holes" in the core classes. Best solution would be, in my opinion, to rework one skill of each category for engineer to become a skill of another category. I personally would enjoy to get access to traps or preparations, but that is just personal taste (tho throw mine could easily get reworked into a trap or preparation).

Edited May 9, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[ventress.4879]

On 5/8/2023 at 9:39 PM, The Boz.2038 said:

Engineer and Revenant throw a massive wrench into the innards of that plan, because as much as I'd want them to, I do not see ANet releasing an entire new Legend and whatever the hell many skills Engineer is missing, without it being a "big release". And at that point, weapon + Legend is70% of an e-spec already...

Not saying impossible, but... feels awkward, man.

I don't think it would be that hard to add an extra skill or two to each Legend. That would really help diversify all the different Revenants. 

Engineer has almost nothing missing from the core skills, just Gadget ultimate (a high damage one would be amazing). Another weapon on the other hand especially a good power offhand would really help. 

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Their comment is related to the request of many players to "fill the holes" in classes.

Other classes are missing 2 elite skills from their pool of core utility skill types and 1 healing skill.
Guardian: needs healing spirit weapon (shelter can get reworked into a consecration), elite spirit weapon and elite consecration
Warrior: needs healing banner, elite stance and elite shout
Ranger: needs healing signet, elite signet and elite trap
Thief: needs healing preparation, elite preparation and elite signet
Elementalist: needs healing conjure, elite arcane and elite signet
Mesmer: needs healing glamour (ether feast can get reworked into a clone), elite clone and elite mantra
Necromancer: needs healing spectral, elite well and elite signet

The difference for engineer is that there really is just one of these holes in the core class, because their number of skill types is different than for others. The only "open spot" for engineer is that of an elite gadget.

All the other classes have 5 different skill types with 4 utility skills each (+ healing and elite skills of that type, if available).
Engineer on the other hand just has 4 different skill types but with 5 utility skills each (+ healing and elite skills).

That's one problem I repeatedly point out whenever it's suggested that anet "fills the holes" in the core classes. Best solution would be, in my opinion, to rework one skill of each category for engineer to become a skill of another category. I personally would enjoy to get access to traps or preparations, but that is just personal taste (tho throw mine could easily get reworked into a trap or preparation).

Thanks, now I at least know where the argument is coming from and can respond. 

The obvious response is pretty much what you're saying - engineer's "hole" is that it has one less utility skill type than everyone else. Introducing another skill type would solve this.

Alternatively, embrace the idea of engineer having fewer categories but more skills per category and introduce more skills of the existing categories.