If you want to end the toxicity between try-hards and casuals, incorporate a tier system like fractals in strikes and raids.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

10 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

I've got nothing against more tiers in instanced PvE group content.  However... the issue of "toxicity" arises frequently, despite that we have tiers in such content already (emboldened, easier and harder strikes, CM's).

 

The real issue is entitlement.  No tier system is going to eliminate the tendency towards people feeling entitled to get their way.  That applies whether that "way" involves being allowed into a group which will succeed regardless of one's contribution or lack of such, OR expecting that any group one happens to get into will be composed solely of GW2 experts.

I would like to say that "emboldened" should not be considered a real difficulty level. Its one wing, so you can't actually use emboldened mode to do a full weekly clear, and  doing just one wing a week is completely useless (it would take you years to get any kind of item from that).

 

I don't think its really even useful as a tutorial, since groups tend to learn the mechanics and clear the raid even without the emboldened stacks helping them.

 

A true difficulty tier is always available and always gives less rewards.

Edited May 15, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

8 hours ago, Dibit.6259 said:

 

When raids were released they probably focused on the hard-core players who has already great experience with harder fractals where they learnt to optimize their builds and had time learn how to deal with the mechanics of the game. The definition of Casual and hardcore was probably more defined back then. Now the game has developed that casuals have more "accessibility" to the harder end game content, especially with the power creep, but may not understand the game enough to get to the point of how optimization works (how many people actually read all their weapon skills, traits and stats etc?) or understand the full scope on what they're trying to get into.

 

The game is constantly changing and players are having to adapt, e.g. the introduction to 5 man boons and getting rid of class unique buffs changed the raid squad formation. People need to constantly research, understand things and keep up to date in order make things easier and better for themselves.

 

The idea of preparing for raids etc is not unique to gw2. The preparation is there to try and make the "win" easier or in some cases obtainable, some of these bosses are literally a dps and/or mechanic check. A lot of experienced players put in the effort to provide the player base with the information it seems daft not to use it. I don't think doing some research is really gonna destroy the raid experience for a newbie, constantly failing or not getting a win may though.

One thing to note here, however, is that when raids came out, Fractals were alot easier. There wasn't as much powercreep, but you could cheese pretty much every encounter, many boss mechanics simply didn't exist, and all the newer Fractals weren't added yet (especially Sunqua, which came after all raids I think?).

 

What this means is later Fractals, are actually on the same difficulty level as the Heart of Thorns raid encounters just tuned down to work for half the party size. It just doesn't seem like it to veterans because we run them daily, with alot of experience, proper comps, full potions, players can be revived and so on.

Even many of the strike missions are easier than say, Sunqua 100, without even the challenge mode, to the point where players occasionally solo them over 30-40mins.

 

Difficulty in this game is a weird subject because content we do frequently and master quickly seems easier than other content even though in reality it isn't, and is an absolute nightmare for inexperienced players. For example, many groups that play Fractals would still wipe in Arah without skips, because its not the content being "easier" that creates the flow but the experience, which ultimately trivialises everything no matter how hard it is. I mean, even Harvest Temple CM is trivial for some groups now.

 

That also makes discussions like this very complicated due to there being so many sides. Some things are undeniably easy (open-world), but other things are distorted by our vision, our viewpoint of the game and our own experiences with it.

Edited May 15, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[mandala.8507]

I've started reading discourse on this topic with a "Poor Unfortunate Souls" instrumental track playing in the background while doing my best Ursula impression.

10/10, will not disappoint.

Keep 'em coming, y'all.

[pfuetzi.5421]

I also think the difference between hardcore and casuals is somewhat made up because proficiency is fluent and not an either or.

Player might considers themself experienced while other would say they are noobs. It is not clear what people expect: Is is sufficient to not wipe the group on an encounter, probably not. How much of a damage descepancy needs there to be to be a "leech" tough? How well do you need to understand a certain encounter? All of that is often not very clear and I think most toxicity araises when those expectations clash.

[Dayra.7405]

I don’t think tiers as in fraktals are the solution,

but a solo and a 5-party mode would be great (for normal as for cm) such that people can learn the mechanics solo, and can play it even if they don’t find 10 ppl

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Dayra.7405

[Zohane.7208]

As long as there's tiers (in any form) to a particular piece of content, there will naturally have to be tiers in the rewards as well, and then people will, quite naturally, try to find ways to get in to the highest tier as fast as possible, regardless of personal skill level and/or experience in said content.

For me, the only solution I can see would be if Anet introduce a system where it's actually not possible to proceed to tier x+1 until you've successfully completed tier x a certain number of times, and possibly more requirements such as not dieing or other similar stuff. I'm sure people would find a way to bypass that as well, but at least it would be harder.

 

Or, we could accept that fact that there will always be different groups with different requirements.

Not holding my breath for any of them to happen, though...

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

10 hours ago, Zohane.7208 said:

As long as there's tiers (in any form) to a particular piece of content, there will naturally have to be tiers in the rewards as well, and then people will, quite naturally, try to find ways to get in to the highest tier as fast as possible, regardless of personal skill level and/or experience in said content.

For me, the only solution I can see would be if Anet introduce a system where it's actually not possible to proceed to tier x+1 until you've successfully completed tier x a certain number of times, and possibly more requirements such as not dieing or other similar stuff. I'm sure people would find a way to bypass that as well, but at least it would be harder.

 

Or, we could accept that fact that there will always be different groups with different requirements.

Not holding my breath for any of them to happen, though...

They already try this with PvP, as you need to complete a certain number of unranked games to join ranked. Then players somehow go into rank as bronze players, so it basically doesn't work.

 

I think it also goes against the spirit of the game somewhat.

Edited May 16, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Sobx.1758]

On 5/16/2023 at 12:40 PM, pfuetzi.5421 said:

I also think the difference between hardcore and casuals is somewhat made up because proficiency is fluent and not an either or.

Player might considers themself experienced while other would say they are noobs. It is not clear what people expect: Is is sufficient to not wipe the group on an encounter, probably not. How much of a damage descepancy needs there to be to be a "leech" tough? How well do you need to understand a certain encounter? All of that is often not very clear and I think most toxicity araises when those expectations clash.

Yup, it's similar to the question about "what's considered to be a good or average dps by any random player I meet ingame", people apparently don't understand that vague subjective terms are... vague and subjective.

[voltaicbore.8012]

None of this would be solved by tier or LFG segregation. It's all about people trying to join groups they have no business joining.

This is not behavior restricted to raids - people don't even read LFG descriptions for dungeons (skip/not skipping scenes, etc). 99.9% of the time, it's entitlement from the casual/low-end player. Just shows up and expects everyone else to play along.

[The Boz.2038]

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by The Boz.2038

[The Boz.2038]

12 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

None of this would be solved by tier or LFG segregation. It's all about people trying to join groups they have no business joining.

This is not behavior restricted to raids - people don't even read LFG descriptions for dungeons (skip/not skipping scenes, etc). 99.9% of the time, it's entitlement from the casual/low-end player. Just shows up and expects everyone else to play along.

"Surely you can make an exception in my case! It's me!"

[mandala.8507]

On 5/18/2023 at 3:08 PM, voltaicbore.8012 said:

99.9% of the time, it's entitlement from the casual/low-end player. Just shows up and expects everyone else to play along.

A made up percentage for a rare occurrence blown way out of proportion, focused on a group of players that don't even understand enough about group content in this game to be intentionally problematic or entitled.

I practically never see low-end players acting entitled in instanced group content.

I regularly see people who believe themselves to be higher-end players having ego trips in instanced group content: typing at other players about their gameplay, starting demeaning interrogations of players they are suspicious of, getting irrationally upset about the arbitrary rules they have in their head that others aren't following, and often times entirely misreading situations and spewing falsehoods about builds and boss mechanics because they're looking for something to blame for pulls failing.

Pretty much all toxicity I've encountered in group content in Gw2 is rooted in a sense of superiority from players who sometimes are, but most times aren't, better than other players, but simply lack the social skills to recognize how hostile they come off as to players who don't know any better...and mind you, players that have no power in their groups or over culture of the scene as a whole. Experienced players have all the power, so I fail to see how we can be the victims of the dynamic we are in full control of at all times.

There's nothing a casual or low-skill player can do to me. And I'm perhaps the most vulnerable class of veteran player in this discussion, since I exclusively play in pickup groups on the lfg. If anyone would be suffering from this supposed pandemic of casual entitlement on the lfg, it would be me.

And I'm not seeing it.

And what's great about the forums is, you can check to see who's actually playing the content regularly outside of static groups, and not to my surprise whatsoever, it's not the people complaining about this alleged "casual entitlement".

Why are people who either play almost exclusively with statics or seem not to play instanced group content at all (because there'd be a record of their exploits if they were playing with all these random players through the lfg, I assure you) championing this position?

It doesn't make sense to me. And it's a terrible look for the game that whenever a new player comes into the community they are barraged by some of the most prominent players clutching their pearls about this "issue", all while playing exclusively with their guildmates and external communities.

It reminds me of the people who get bumped into on the street, and instead of reciprocating a mutual apology and continuing on their way, start making a huge scene about the other person running into them, when everyone knows it was an accident and not a big deal at all.

And they're a 6 foot, 200 pound adult man while the other person was a 4th-grader who just tripped into them.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

A made up percentage for a rare occurrence blown way out of proportion, focused on a group of players that don't even understand enough about group content in this game to be intentionally problematic or entitled.

Except it's closer to reality than the "tryhard elitist throwing new people out for no reason" claim.
I can count the number of times some guy joined a training run and complained about people being new on one hand. However I lost count of the number of people joining into groups expecting people to know what they know, then complain of "toxicity" last year.

[Zok.4956]

On 5/14/2023 at 3:52 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

There's no toxicity.  Those who claim there is  need a Boogeyman to blame rather than themselves for whatever is keeping them from doing the content. I've raided for years and I've never ever seen anything remotely toxic. I've never seen an example either. 

I do have encountered a lot of toxic behaviour when I started raiding many many years ago with my guildmates. A group from another guild helped us. They were the "pros" and we were the "noobs". There were insults and other behaviour that I would classify as "toxic". The result was that my guildmates and I stopped raiding because it was not fun for us. 6 months later we started another try (without external help), it took some time but it was a fun experience and our own first VG kill was one of my best guild experiences I had in the game for a long time.

Toxicity exists in all areas of the game but it usually comes (this is my observation) from players that think they are "pros" (but are not) and who blame others (more inexperienced players) for their own failures. I've never experienced toxicity in raids from really experienced and good players (and I met a lot of players that are way better at playing than myself).

Sure, there are players who think that raids and raiders are inherently toxic and elitist. Of course they are wrong. However, that does not mean that there is no toxicity.

Personal experiences can be very different.

[stormemperor.3745]

It already exists.

LFG Experienced

LFG Training

People don't wanna use LFG training despite not knowing mechs.

[voltaicbore.8012]

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

And they're a 6 foot, 200 pound adult man while the other person was a 4th-grader who just tripped into them.

Dunno, this sounds a lot like

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

A made up percentage for a rare occurrence blown way out of proportion

But way to go, assuming that your experience is The Truth and mine has absolutely no validity. Bravo.

I run dungeon frequenter a lot, both solo (when I have the time or need to do so) and more often in a group (when I just want to get them done faster). Because dungeons are so... below meta in terms of farmable content, that's where I meet a disproportionately high amount of new and less skilled players. For most new folks, the first instanced group content they touch is some of the lower level dungeons.

The vast majority of my "hey we're going to be moving fast, skipping mobs/cutscenes" run gets filled by 1-2 brand new or far less experienced player. Most of the time they don't even know how to enter the dungeon, so I give them an efficient path, or offer to step outside so they can TP to friend if they happen to have some. And almost without fail, such people fall behind inside the dungeon itself, because they're not skipping what I clearly said we were going to skip in LFG.

Most of the time the new person, when gently informed that that's why they're getting left behind, will respond "oh I'll actually read the LFG description next time, sorry." But maybe slightly less than half the time, this new person goes full Karen, blaming the downfall of cooperative gaming entirely on behaviors like ours, demanding that it's Right and Fair that the rest of the group abandon what was clearly stated and agreed upon in LFG to suit their selfishness.

On the flip side, out of the 10,000+ dungeons I've run (at minimum, 10,656 based on 1,332 frequenter clears), I guarantee I've seen less than 10 experienced players try to impose their speedrunning demands on what was clearly a first-time/learning/taking-it-slow run. A lot of this is due to the dungeon veteran community being somewhat small and self-selecting, and clearly we enjoy aspects of the game that aren't full-speed-ahead-meta-activities-only-moarGPHraaaa.

But either way, I believe is it objectively defensible in my experience, based on a pretty sizable data pool, that it's the new people who don't care for anyone else's experience, and instead demands everyone else cater to them. No thanks.

 

[mandala.8507]

56 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

7 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

And they're a 6 foot, 200 pound adult man while the other person was a 4th-grader who just tripped into them.

Dunno, this sounds a lot like

7 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

A made up percentage for a rare occurrence blown way out of proportion

I made an analogy; a situational comparison. You generated a false statistic. These are not the same.

58 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I run dungeon frequenter a lot, both solo (when I have the time or need to do so) and more often in a group (when I just want to get them done faster). Because dungeons are so... below meta in terms of farmable content, that's where I meet a disproportionately high amount of new and less skilled players. For most new folks, the first instanced group content they touch is some of the lower level dungeons.

The vast majority of my "hey we're going to be moving fast, skipping mobs/cutscenes" run gets filled by 1-2 brand new or far less experienced player. Most of the time they don't even know how to enter the dungeon, so I give them an efficient path, or offer to step outside so they can TP to friend if they happen to have some. And almost without fail, such people fall behind inside the dungeon itself, because they're not skipping what I clearly said we were going to skip in LFG.

Most of the time the new person, when gently informed that that's why they're getting left behind, will respond "oh I'll actually read the LFG description next time, sorry." But maybe slightly less than half the time, this new person goes full Karen, blaming the downfall of cooperative gaming entirely on behaviors like ours, demanding that it's Right and Fair that the rest of the group abandon what was clearly stated and agreed upon in LFG to suit their selfishness.

On the flip side, out of the 10,000+ dungeons I've run (at minimum, 10,656 based on 1,332 frequenter clears), I guarantee I've seen less than 10 experienced players try to impose their speedrunning demands on what was clearly a first-time/learning/taking-it-slow run. A lot of this is due to the dungeon veteran community being somewhat small and self-selecting, and clearly we enjoy aspects of the game that aren't full-speed-ahead-meta-activities-only-moarGPHraaaa.

But either way, I believe is it objectively defensible in my experience, based on a pretty sizable data pool, that it's the new people who don't care for anyone else's experience, and instead demands everyone else cater to them. No thanks.

All I'm reading from this is that you are taking dungeons (instanced group encounters not supported as endgame content and engaged with typically by players on their leveling journeys) and ruining them for those players looking to do them for the first time.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you are not being victimized by entitled players. If you are purposely interacting with abandoned content intended for new players, and getting mad that those new players who probably don't even have 1000 AP yet are watching cutscenes because they didn't realize you were only allowing people to come help you with your gold grind, you've deliberately manufactured your own victimhood.

Another analogy:

You've decided to go read in the park every day, but choose to sit in the middle of the jungle gym furious that young children keep playing around you and not listening to your commands, shouting "these entitled children are ruining the park!"

[mandala.8507]

And not to be that guy, @voltaicbore.8012, but did you not read the title of this thread?!?!?! We're talking about STRIKES and RAIDS. Read the LF...I mean...read the thread title! 😤

/s (mostly)

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

And not to be that guy, @voltaicbore.8012, but did you not read the title of this thread?!?!?! We're talking about STRIKES and RAIDS. Read the LF...I mean...read the thread title! 😤

Your use of analogies suggests you should understand how examples from other context A can apply to context B, but I guess I'll have to spell it out for you: I see a lot of new-to-this-content people not reading LFG and feeling entitled to have a group cater to their needs in context A (dungeons), and I think that would play out similarly in context B (strikes/raids).

Honestly at this point imma just block you though (you should probably do the same for me, but far be it from me to impose anything on you). Short of complete agreement with every last aspect of what you state, you have a penchant for spiraling things into needless confrontation.

Edited May 20, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Your use of analogies suggests you should understand how examples from other context A can apply to context B, but I guess I'll have to spell it out for you: I see a lot of new-to-this-content people not reading LFG and feeling entitled to have a group cater to their needs in context A (dungeons), and I think that would play out similarly in context B (strikes/raids).

And I explained to you why that extrapolation is erroneous. You're assuming your experience shepherding new players through dungeons translates to supported endgame instanced group content culture, and I, as someone who actually does strikes and raids via the lfg regularly, am telling you that they aren't even remotely the same and that the experience you're having is a unique case because you've decided to insert endgame expectations into a space intended for new players.

Analogy again:

You're assuming how the primary school children are behaving on the jungle gym is the same as how the high schoolers are behaving in the library. And I'm telling you the vast majority of the high schoolers are being totally respectful and just trying to get their assignments done without bothering anyone.

Unfortunately, some old people are following them around the library as they do so, commenting on the appropriateness of their  attire, asking if they actually know what they're looking for in the library, and getting upset that the high schoolers would come to the library without knowing exactly what they were looking for and where to find it every time, clogging up the aisles and computers — slightly inconveniencing said old people who are trying to spend their time in the library optimally and in complete and utter silence...all because some teens in hoodies and sweatpants were causing a ruckus one time 15 years ago, so now they feel like they have to become citizen police or else total anarchy will ensue.

And so high schoolers have gradually stopped coming to the library, and one day it will close for good because no one uses it anymore.

[sigmundf.7523]

On 5/14/2023 at 12:34 PM, Phoenix.4593 said:

For the experienced players, casuals waste peoples time. For the casuals, try-hards are toxic gate keepers. Tiered difficulty would benefit everyone. The way the system is set up now, having success in raids and strikes requires asking favors of more experienced players. That is not in any way healthy for a game mode, and is one of the biggest weaknesses of GW2. 

No, tiered difficulty will not benefit anyone, not the player nor ANET. If there is LFR WoW equivalent difficulty in GW2, these players that join it will not understand on how important is your optimal gear / build setup for your chosen role, party composition, and how to play your profession properly based on your chosen role. On top of that, the in-game reward from these "tiered" strikes / raids will have to be cut significantly. So not only it won't have substantial in-game reward, players will most likely to not learn anything from joining one. You will be joining a squad with no perm boon uptime, poor CC, and 5k dps. 

If you want to join end-game instanced content, you have to be at least know how to play your profession / role and be informed of the current effective playstyle such as party composition and builds. Not knowing first-hand on how the encounter goes is normal and acceptable, and there is guide / explanation in either youtube or wiki that will give you general idea on what the boss do, or how the encounter goes. 

Don't equate casuals = deadweight. A casual player can be a player that is know how to play and well-informed but just play casually. And try-hards are not always toxic gate keepers, they are mostly deadweight gate keepers. I bet your bottom that you are glad that GW2 gearing progression system is "horizontal", just imagine if raids, strikes, T4 Fractal have scaling gear rewards.

[Einsof.1457]

On 5/20/2023 at 8:01 AM, Zok.4956 said:

I do have encountered a lot of toxic behaviour when I started raiding many many years ago with my guildmates. A group from another guild helped us. They were the "pros" and we were the "noobs". There were insults and other behaviour that I would classify as "toxic". The result was that my guildmates and I stopped raiding because it was not fun for us. 6 months later we started another try (without external help), it took some time but it was a fun experience and our own first VG kill was one of my best guild experiences I had in the game for a long time.

Toxicity exists in all areas of the game but it usually comes (this is my observation) from players that think they are "pros" (but are not) and who blame others (more inexperienced players) for their own failures. I've never experienced toxicity in raids from really experienced and good players (and I met a lot of players that are way better at playing than myself).

Sure, there are players who think that raids and raiders are inherently toxic and elitist. Of course they are wrong. However, that does not mean that there is no toxicity.

Personal experiences can be very different.

I've only seen toxicity from those who can't or are unwilling to put in effort to do the content. They call people "try hards" etc. as a coping mechanism. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 5/14/2023 at 9:56 AM, Dibit.6259 said:

Main problem is people going in completely blind to the fight and are unprepared.

Which they should be able to for they easiest version of a fight. This is why Ice brood saga Strikes are so popular. Whisper of Jormag is explained in a couple of sentences. A noob can fight that thing with common sense and a explanation you can type out and read while you wait for the last person to go into the instance. Even if the strike fails if said noob gives it a second honest try they should succeed. Because the fight is short and the mechanics are limited in scope.

On 5/14/2023 at 9:56 AM, Dibit.6259 said:

There are many guides to fight mechanics, build set up and rotations etc out there but casuals either seem unaware or don't understand the importance to this preparation.

Veterans are unaware or don't understand the importance of free time and that this is a Game. Obviously come prepared for a hard fight. Your bad performance does steal the other 9 Person their time and fun. The real problem is Anet refuses to make easy fights. The easy Versions of all Cantha Strikes are to hard. The 300+, 600+, and 1000+ hour game time veteran may laugh at such a statement. But I'm convinced the success of Strikes comes from the shorter time investment and lower skill floor. A lesson many veteran play and Dev's seem blind too. And I don't understand why. It can be that time intensive to develop different difficult levels. 

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Which they should be able to for they easiest version of a fight. This is why Ice brood saga Strikes are so popular. Whisper of Jormag is explained in a couple of sentences. A noob can fight that thing with common sense and a explanation you can type out and read while you wait for the last person to go into the instance. Even if the strike fails if said noob gives it a second honest try they should succeed. Because the fight is short and the mechanics are limited in scope.

Veterans are unaware or don't understand the importance of free time and that this is a Game. Obviously come prepared for a hard fight. Your bad performance does steal the other 9 Person their time and fun. The real problem is Anet refuses to make easy fights. The easy Versions of all Cantha Strikes are to hard. The 300+, 600+, and 1000+ hour game time veteran may laugh at such a statement.

The real problem is rather that some people try to join experienced groups without having any idea what to do. People can -and do- go blind into each fo the ecounter, but they should do it in groups that are made with that in mind.
Yes, I think strikes are a good change when compared to raid format, if only because you can access the encounter you want without the need to play through the whole wing or finding an "opener". It makes replaying and learning encounters easier.

Anyways, simply join or make groups according to your expectations and abilities.

1 hour ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

But I'm convinced the success of Strikes comes from the shorter time investment and lower skill floor. A lesson many veteran play and Dev's seem blind too. And I don't understand why. It can be that time intensive to develop different difficult levels. 

The devs literally introduced ibs strikes (and later, tiered eod strikes) to provide a bridge between ow and harder 10 player pve content in the form of raids. So no, they're not somehow "blind to it", strikes do what they were designed to do.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[SlayerXX.7138]

32 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The devs literally introduced ibs strikes (and later, tiered eod strikes) to provide a bridge between ow and harder 10 player pve content in the form of raids. So no, they're not somehow "blind to it", strikes do what they were designed to do.

I'm aware of the initial dev intend on Strikes. But fact is: Strike are in themselves a success. We got 4 Strikes and no Raids in EoD. I say the are blind to importance of a low skill floor for 10 man content, because they made the cantha strikes harder then they need to be on normal mode(the easy mode). They lifted the skill floor to much on cantha Strike which I think did hurt that Strikes a lot.