Tue Patch 11-28-2017

[Obtena.7952]

@trueanimus.4085 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ilmau.9781 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:If there is a 'reversion', it won't be a rollback. It will likely be an adjustment of some numbers. The concept of Reaper is an improvement; what is left is minor adjustments.

i really wanted to write something like this:

"OK GUYS LISTEN, obtena here said it is an improvement soooo we are all scrubs who do not know how to use our main class, we look foward to see some of vids of you that teach us how to play the reaper, that would be great. Thank you to giving us such amazing feedback i am about to take a screen and make it as my desktop to remember your words as best as often as possible.... "

well, but i am quite a polite guy so i will just say what i really think, do you realize you are one in one million considering it an improvement?

almost the totality of the main necro players consider it a total destruction of the class to the point it is unplayable...

No, I'm not one in a million .. you have no idea how many people like or dislike this change. Again, you're inventing things and have a level of sensationalism that fools no one. Anet had a goal to change reaper and they did what they said they wanted to do. You need to bring yourself around the way Anet thinks if you want to make a difference here.

I think the main problem with the way the nerf was put into place is that they wanted and designed the reaper spec to be the tank/melee class but now with the 67% shroud drain, even with the improved damage on shroud skills (while you can maintain it) it is just simply unplayable. You go into reaper shroud, jump in and in one or two hits, your out of shroud and either dead or running for your live with no stab, no condi clear etc.

Why make a class spec melee if there is no point to it? Shroud was fine.. it was working as intended.. it was how the class spec was SUPPOSED to be played.. now its is not even viable in PVE, let alone any competitive mode like pvp or wvw

What you describe doesn't not make it unplayable ... describing this an unplayable does not provide Anet with a reasonable description of the change. Yes, it's short compared to the old Reaper shroud and you can't get off your full suite of shroud attacks; describing this as unplayable is disingenuous. It's also not acknowledging that shortening the duration was actually intended, so it's not a very compelling statement to say something is wrong because it's shorter.

[trueanimus.4085]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ilmau.9781 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:If there is a 'reversion', it won't be a rollback. It will likely be an adjustment of some numbers. The concept of Reaper is an improvement; what is left is minor adjustments.

i really wanted to write something like this:

"OK GUYS LISTEN, obtena here said it is an improvement soooo we are all scrubs who do not know how to use our main class, we look foward to see some of vids of you that teach us how to play the reaper, that would be great. Thank you to giving us such amazing feedback i am about to take a screen and make it as my desktop to remember your words as best as often as possible.... "

well, but i am quite a polite guy so i will just say what i really think, do you realize you are one in one million considering it an improvement?

almost the totality of the main necro players consider it a total destruction of the class to the point it is unplayable...

No, I'm not one in a million .. you have no idea how many people like or dislike this change. Again, you're inventing things and have a level of sensationalism that fools no one. Anet had a goal to change reaper and they did what they said they wanted to do.

You need to bring yourself around the way Anet thinks

if you want to make a difference here.

i need a way to look into someones head ... because someone that never communicates with me - well its hard to tell what those people intend to do really.

Your statement is actually disingenuous here ... Anet DID communicate why they made this change to us in the patch notes. The barriers to understand this change do not EXIST, so don't try to make it sound like we are in some fog where Anet makes changes that no one understands. Even if they didn't, these aren't big leaps of logic to understand why such things are done, including the fact there is history in the game; it's not like Anet is wildly unpredictable. Many of their changes are more aligned to the conceptual side and less so what most of us consider balancing.

Please enlighten me on Anets communication. There was absolutely no reason to nerf shroud degeneration. We have poor defensive mechanisms all around and still do meh damage in comparison to almost every other class on the game and you think Anet wanted to make us even easier to kill? Can't do the extra damage when you are slaughtered in team fights since Necros are typically the first and easiest targets to kill.

Anet doesn't sit around and 'reason' themselves into believing their changes are the right thing to do; it's not a question of morality; their justification is simply to adhere to the ideas of what they want the class to be; the idea they have to justify their changes to players is completely nonsensical. They simply say they want something to work a certain way and they change it to do that. Reaper was a supposed to be an elite spec, but it didn't feel like it; it played too much like Core Necro and Death Shroud. Anet fixed that and gave us an updated spec that not only plays different (the whole point of the elite spec), it also gives us more damage in PVE ... something players have wanted for a long time.

You might not think so, but being conceptually correct is a REALLY important thing, not just in GW2 either.

No, they made an elite spec into an even more garbage tier spec than it already was. Poor mobility, poor defense, very little stability, average damage, now has even worse defense, and arguably mobility since your shroud will instantly disappear in pvp. I don't get how you can defend Anets decision, because they have weakened an already sub par class.

Your arguments don't even make sense.

You make this sound like it's my argument ... but it's not. It's Anet's process and what I'm telling you is inline with their POV. The problem is that you are looking at this as a performance problem. Look again at what Anet said they aimed to do ... it has nothing to do with performance. They addressed what they saw as a conceptual issue. No one should associate performance with the concept. Ignoring this focus on the change and you won't have any chance to make a dent in making a compelling argument to fix it. I've had this argument so many times, yet it's so obvious ... Anet cares greatly about the class concepts they develop in the game; I would even go as far to say at the EXPENSE of performance.

Now, the guy that just posted the little bit of history about the feel of Reaper supposing to be an unrelenting pursuer ... HE'S GOT THE RIGHT IDEA! His argument is from a CONCEPTUAL angle, not a performance one.

The reaper is a melee class spec for light armor that is no longer able to melee.. why even have it? No one plays classic necro anymore with the nerf to shroud skills and plaguelands... they are both worthless in any compeditive mode of gameplay now.

Reaper was supposed to be the melee aspect of the class offering shroud as a way to get in and actually do melee on a cloth class.. now for one.. i never ran sword as your sustain on sword made no sense with cloth armor.. but reaper shroud on the other hand was perfect before the nerf. Now everyone is being forced to play scourge, which we ALL KNOW will be nerfed soon because of the massive damage, boon rip and conversion and barriers that are killing wvw right now... so where does that leave necro?

Soon necro will be just like rangers and thief in all game modes... unwanted and underappreciated and people will either roll heavy classes or elementimentalists (or even mesmers maybe) because they will be more viable.. OR... the last alternative... leaving the game all together. Several of the people that i have spoken to that have put in hundreds of hours on thier necro/reaper say they will be leaving unless it is fixed and viable again without anet forcing them into specs they do not like. I cant say i blame them and if it keeps up on this tangent, i may be following them as well.

[trueanimus.4085]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ilmau.9781 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:If there is a 'reversion', it won't be a rollback. It will likely be an adjustment of some numbers. The concept of Reaper is an improvement; what is left is minor adjustments.

i really wanted to write something like this:

"OK GUYS LISTEN, obtena here said it is an improvement soooo we are all scrubs who do not know how to use our main class, we look foward to see some of vids of you that teach us how to play the reaper, that would be great. Thank you to giving us such amazing feedback i am about to take a screen and make it as my desktop to remember your words as best as often as possible.... "

well, but i am quite a polite guy so i will just say what i really think, do you realize you are one in one million considering it an improvement?

almost the totality of the main necro players consider it a total destruction of the class to the point it is unplayable...

No, I'm not one in a million .. you have no idea how many people like or dislike this change. Again, you're inventing things and have a level of sensationalism that fools no one. Anet had a goal to change reaper and they did what they said they wanted to do.

You need to bring yourself around the way Anet thinks

if you want to make a difference here.

i need a way to look into someones head ... because someone that never communicates with me - well its hard to tell what those people intend to do really.

Your statement is actually disingenuous here ... Anet DID communicate why they made this change to us in the patch notes. The barriers to understand this change do not EXIST, so don't try to make it sound like we are in some fog where Anet makes changes that no one understands. Even if they didn't, these aren't big leaps of logic to understand why such things are done, including the fact there is history in the game; it's not like Anet is wildly unpredictable. Many of their changes are more aligned to the conceptual side and less so what most of us consider balancing.

Please enlighten me on Anets communication. There was absolutely no reason to nerf shroud degeneration. We have poor defensive mechanisms all around and still do meh damage in comparison to almost every other class on the game and you think Anet wanted to make us even easier to kill? Can't do the extra damage when you are slaughtered in team fights since Necros are typically the first and easiest targets to kill.

Anet doesn't sit around and 'reason' themselves into believing their changes are the right thing to do; it's not a question of morality; their justification is simply to adhere to the ideas of what they want the class to be; the idea they have to justify their changes to players is completely nonsensical. They simply say they want something to work a certain way and they change it to do that. Reaper was a supposed to be an elite spec, but it didn't feel like it; it played too much like Core Necro and Death Shroud. Anet fixed that and gave us an updated spec that not only plays different (the whole point of the elite spec), it also gives us more damage in PVE ... something players have wanted for a long time.

You might not think so, but being conceptually correct is a REALLY important thing, not just in GW2 either.

No, they made an elite spec into an even more garbage tier spec than it already was. Poor mobility, poor defense, very little stability, average damage, now has even worse defense, and arguably mobility since your shroud will instantly disappear in pvp. I don't get how you can defend Anets decision, because they have weakened an already sub par class.

Your arguments don't even make sense.

You make this sound like it's my argument ... but it's not. It's Anet's process and what I'm telling you is inline with their POV. The problem is that you are looking at this as a performance problem. Look again at what Anet said they aimed to do ... it has nothing to do with performance. They addressed what they saw as a conceptual issue. No one should associate performance with the concept. Ignoring this focus on the change and you won't have any chance to make a dent in making a compelling argument to fix it. I've had this argument so many times, yet it's so obvious ... Anet cares greatly about the class concepts they develop in the game; I would even go as far to say at the EXPENSE of performance.

Now, the guy that just posted the little bit of history about the feel of Reaper supposing to be an unrelenting pursuer ... HE'S GOT THE RIGHT IDEA! His argument is from a CONCEPTUAL angle, not a performance one.

you are kidding right... reapers cant chase down any class... come on.. the leap is all they had... meanwhile every other class has a speed burst skill that takes them half way across the map instantly... thieves, mesmers, warriors, elementalists etc.. the ONLY class you might be able to catch on reaper would be a slow guardian but even then.. they run all burn and have total immunity skills and tons of condi cleanse... at least with reaper before you could maybe survive long enough to get away or put some distance between you and an opponent... but that goes against everything necro was designed to do from day 1... They were designed to stand in the heat of battle, be almost unkillable and heal with the death of anything around them. They were MEANT to be super heavy condi dps in a cloth tank .. hence the 2 health bars and tons of life drain skills... now all they are is another squishy caster with a cream center for everyone else to feast on.

[trueanimus.4085]

@ilmau.9781 said:

No, they made an elite spec into an even more garbage tier spec than it already was. Poor mobility, poor defense, very little stability, average damage, now has even worse defense, and arguably mobility since your shroud will instantly disappear in pvp. I don't get how you can defend Anets decision, because they have weakened an already sub par class.

Your arguments don't even make sense.

i was really upset the past days, i am trying to be more polite possible and i thank you and all the others to share my same feeling about the Reaper and Anet and to spread them on forum

You're welcome my friend... just trying to save the poor souls with whom i have already talked to and are already planning on leaving if a fix isnt introduced fast. I cant say i blame people for threatning to leave really.. Reaper was my main and favorite class and it is totally unplayable now. The new Scourge spec seems slow, clunky and squishy and the additions of the F2-F5 buttons just means now i have to press more buttons while doing less dps than before and with less chance of survival and being forced to play scourge after i worked so hard on my necro and still feeling broken and now super sguishy, just leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Although i doubt very seriously they will do anything for at LEAST 3 - 4 months in the terms of fixing the problem... i do smell scourge nerfs coming soon.

What is my basis for this statement you may ask?

Play WvW (or any game mode) for 1 day... 99.99999% of all necros play scourge now because they have no alternative. Basic necro spec has been long dead, and reaper is just not playable now in any game mode with the current shroud drain. The scourge is good.. but only in large groups where you never get focused because a 7000 barrier is not going to save you in any game mode currently. If you get targeted by anything.. its over.. Yes the scourge does good dps.. but the button combinations are a pita.. Why didnt they just give us a simple F1 and then shroud skills? No.. they wanted to make it to where you had to keep hitting buttons to barrier against 1 attack that totally drains your current barrier.

HEY ANET... a 7-8000 barrier isnt going to do anything against classes that can do 20,000 to 30,000 in one shot now!

Anyway.. every large group you run into now in wvw is 10 frontline heavy burn guard tanks, 2 elementalists and about 60 scourge and maybe 10-20 condi revs.

Dont expect any love for reaper anytime soon... although we can always hope.

[Obtena.7952]

@trueanimus.4085 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ilmau.9781 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:If there is a 'reversion', it won't be a rollback. It will likely be an adjustment of some numbers. The concept of Reaper is an improvement; what is left is minor adjustments.

i really wanted to write something like this:

"OK GUYS LISTEN, obtena here said it is an improvement soooo we are all scrubs who do not know how to use our main class, we look foward to see some of vids of you that teach us how to play the reaper, that would be great. Thank you to giving us such amazing feedback i am about to take a screen and make it as my desktop to remember your words as best as often as possible.... "

well, but i am quite a polite guy so i will just say what i really think, do you realize you are one in one million considering it an improvement?

almost the totality of the main necro players consider it a total destruction of the class to the point it is unplayable...

No, I'm not one in a million .. you have no idea how many people like or dislike this change. Again, you're inventing things and have a level of sensationalism that fools no one. Anet had a goal to change reaper and they did what they said they wanted to do.

You need to bring yourself around the way Anet thinks

if you want to make a difference here.

i need a way to look into someones head ... because someone that never communicates with me - well its hard to tell what those people intend to do really.

Your statement is actually disingenuous here ... Anet DID communicate why they made this change to us in the patch notes. The barriers to understand this change do not EXIST, so don't try to make it sound like we are in some fog where Anet makes changes that no one understands. Even if they didn't, these aren't big leaps of logic to understand why such things are done, including the fact there is history in the game; it's not like Anet is wildly unpredictable. Many of their changes are more aligned to the conceptual side and less so what most of us consider balancing.

Please enlighten me on Anets communication. There was absolutely no reason to nerf shroud degeneration. We have poor defensive mechanisms all around and still do meh damage in comparison to almost every other class on the game and you think Anet wanted to make us even easier to kill? Can't do the extra damage when you are slaughtered in team fights since Necros are typically the first and easiest targets to kill.

Anet doesn't sit around and 'reason' themselves into believing their changes are the right thing to do; it's not a question of morality; their justification is simply to adhere to the ideas of what they want the class to be; the idea they have to justify their changes to players is completely nonsensical. They simply say they want something to work a certain way and they change it to do that. Reaper was a supposed to be an elite spec, but it didn't feel like it; it played too much like Core Necro and Death Shroud. Anet fixed that and gave us an updated spec that not only plays different (the whole point of the elite spec), it also gives us more damage in PVE ... something players have wanted for a long time.

You might not think so, but being conceptually correct is a REALLY important thing, not just in GW2 either.

No, they made an elite spec into an even more garbage tier spec than it already was. Poor mobility, poor defense, very little stability, average damage, now has even worse defense, and arguably mobility since your shroud will instantly disappear in pvp. I don't get how you can defend Anets decision, because they have weakened an already sub par class.

Your arguments don't even make sense.

You make this sound like it's my argument ... but it's not. It's Anet's process and what I'm telling you is inline with their POV. The problem is that you are looking at this as a performance problem. Look again at what Anet said they aimed to do ... it has nothing to do with performance. They addressed what they saw as a conceptual issue. No one should associate performance with the concept. Ignoring this focus on the change and you won't have any chance to make a dent in making a compelling argument to fix it. I've had this argument so many times, yet it's so obvious ... Anet cares greatly about the class concepts they develop in the game; I would even go as far to say at the EXPENSE of performance.

Now, the guy that just posted the little bit of history about the feel of Reaper supposing to be an unrelenting pursuer ... HE'S GOT THE RIGHT IDEA! His argument is from a CONCEPTUAL angle, not a performance one.

you are kidding right...

Kidding about what? I know Anet isn't kidding ... and they changed it and what I said above is why they changed it. Is that really so hard for you to understand? Again, if you think about it from a conceptual and not a performance issue, it makes lots of sense what they did. That's why I'm saying there is SOMETHING that's included in Anet's decisions for balancing other than performance. If you can't understand that, I have no simpler way to explain it to you.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@trueanimus.4085 said:

you are kidding right... reapers cant chase down any class... come on.. the leap is all they had... meanwhile every other class has a speed burst skill that takes them half way across the map instantly... thieves, mesmers, warriors, elementalists etc.. the ONLY class you might be able to catch on reaper would be a slow guardian but even then.. they run all burn and have total immunity skills and tons of condi cleanse... at least with reaper before you could maybe survive long enough to get away or put some distance between you and an opponent... but that goes against everything necro was designed to do from day 1... They were designed to stand in the heat of battle, be almost unkillable and heal with the death of anything around them. They were MEANT to be super heavy condi dps in a cloth tank .. hence the 2 health bars and tons of life drain skills... now all they are is another squishy caster with a cream center for everyone else to feast on.

Well, Reaper wasnt designed to be fast. Considering their design was MEANT to follow that of like Jason and Pyramid Head like monsters. Slow. Very slow but at the same time unstoppable (this aspect of course would never be allowed if they were unstoppable) they werent designed to be fast fly acorss the map kinda spec. The problem with this is that they lack the defense needed for such a mechanic to actually work. There are plenty of changing they could make that would go in this sort of direction.

[Ara.4569]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:Communicating after the fact is not worth a bloody thing, and frankly that's just announcing the changes describing their rational. Communication is a two way street for everyone it seems except Anet. Doing so beforehand to allow for rebuttal is far more effective long term and a much better use of resources, they just don't get that at all.Since Colin Johanson left, ANet is a headless chicken. Not that I regret him, but now there's no management, no direction and even less communication.

[hurrado.2346]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@trueanimus.4085 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ilmau.9781 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:If there is a 'reversion', it won't be a rollback. It will likely be an adjustment of some numbers. The concept of Reaper is an improvement; what is left is minor adjustments.

i really wanted to write something like this:

"OK GUYS LISTEN, obtena here said it is an improvement soooo we are all scrubs who do not know how to use our main class, we look foward to see some of vids of you that teach us how to play the reaper, that would be great. Thank you to giving us such amazing feedback i am about to take a screen and make it as my desktop to remember your words as best as often as possible.... "

well, but i am quite a polite guy so i will just say what i really think, do you realize you are one in one million considering it an improvement?

almost the totality of the main necro players consider it a total destruction of the class to the point it is unplayable...

No, I'm not one in a million .. you have no idea how many people like or dislike this change. Again, you're inventing things and have a level of sensationalism that fools no one. Anet had a goal to change reaper and they did what they said they wanted to do.

You need to bring yourself around the way Anet thinks

if you want to make a difference here.

i need a way to look into someones head ... because someone that never communicates with me - well its hard to tell what those people intend to do really.

Your statement is actually disingenuous here ... Anet DID communicate why they made this change to us in the patch notes. The barriers to understand this change do not EXIST, so don't try to make it sound like we are in some fog where Anet makes changes that no one understands. Even if they didn't, these aren't big leaps of logic to understand why such things are done, including the fact there is history in the game; it's not like Anet is wildly unpredictable. Many of their changes are more aligned to the conceptual side and less so what most of us consider balancing.

Please enlighten me on Anets communication. There was absolutely no reason to nerf shroud degeneration. We have poor defensive mechanisms all around and still do meh damage in comparison to almost every other class on the game and you think Anet wanted to make us even easier to kill? Can't do the extra damage when you are slaughtered in team fights since Necros are typically the first and easiest targets to kill.

Anet doesn't sit around and 'reason' themselves into believing their changes are the right thing to do; it's not a question of morality; their justification is simply to adhere to the ideas of what they want the class to be; the idea they have to justify their changes to players is completely nonsensical. They simply say they want something to work a certain way and they change it to do that. Reaper was a supposed to be an elite spec, but it didn't feel like it; it played too much like Core Necro and Death Shroud. Anet fixed that and gave us an updated spec that not only plays different (the whole point of the elite spec), it also gives us more damage in PVE ... something players have wanted for a long time.

You might not think so, but being conceptually correct is a REALLY important thing, not just in GW2 either.

No, they made an elite spec into an even more garbage tier spec than it already was. Poor mobility, poor defense, very little stability, average damage, now has even worse defense, and arguably mobility since your shroud will instantly disappear in pvp. I don't get how you can defend Anets decision, because they have weakened an already sub par class.

Your arguments don't even make sense.

You make this sound like it's my argument ... but it's not. It's Anet's process and what I'm telling you is inline with their POV. The problem is that you are looking at this as a performance problem. Look again at what Anet said they aimed to do ... it has nothing to do with performance. They addressed what they saw as a conceptual issue. No one should associate performance with the concept. Ignoring this focus on the change and you won't have any chance to make a dent in making a compelling argument to fix it. I've had this argument so many times, yet it's so obvious ... Anet cares greatly about the class concepts they develop in the game; I would even go as far to say at the EXPENSE of performance.

Now, the guy that just posted the little bit of history about the feel of Reaper supposing to be an unrelenting pursuer ... HE'S GOT THE RIGHT IDEA! His argument is from a CONCEPTUAL angle, not a performance one.

you are kidding right...

Kidding about what? I know Anet isn't kidding ... and they changed it and what I said above is why they changed it. Is that really so hard for you to understand? Again, if you think about it from a conceptual and not a performance issue, it makes lots of sense what they did. That's why I'm saying there is SOMETHING that's included in Anet's decisions for balancing other than performance. If you can't understand that, I have no simpler way to explain it to you.

Obtena, there was no balance. Everything you say trying to defend Anet is just plain delusional. Conceptually why would they design a class that is slow and weak in almost every regard, only to continually nerf it into oblivion. The argument of "gotta nerf some defense for damage buffs" would only make sense if the class was even relatively competitive in the first place, and defensively and offensively it is not. You have to play reaper at a much higher skill level than your opponent to do well, and someone can still pick up a class like scourge and provide way more benefit. What is the point in playing core necro/reaper competitively when they are constantly shit on for the benefit of scourge?

[kKagari.6804]

I thought ilmau got banned lol

anyways, i doubt they'll revert the changes, nor should they.

[Razor.6392]

No developer I know actually reverts changes, no matter how controversial. They'll buff things in a different way but revert them? That would be admitting they're wrong. Something that is not going to happen.

There are a few exceptions though, but those can only happen years down the line.

[ilmau.9781]

@Razor.6392 said:No developer I know actually reverts changes, no matter how controversial. They'll buff things in a different way but revert them? That would be admitting they're wrong. Something that is not going to happen.

There are a few exceptions though, but those can only happen years down the line.

fact prove they are wrong and you do not need to be a genius to understand that you just need to actually play the game, REAPER DO NOT WORK IN ANY GAME MODE, i will keep repeating this forever, it was working but they turned an already B tier class in a pile of junk and this is 100% dev fault failing hard at their job.

In top of that, if tomorrow things do not change nor get fixed i will move this discussion out from this forum to Reddit and other major Gw2 forums around the web and keep it alive till we get a fix. I am 100% right i am not asking anything special i just want what i payed for, TO HAVE FUN.

[Nimon.7840]

They should just nerv the dmg of all other classes. Especially in wvw.

I got 28k hp3,2k armor

And still a mesmer and a thief is able to oneshot me as a necro

Seems pretty balanced

[Dadnir.5038]

@trueanimus.4085 said:Soon necro will be just like rangers and thief in all game modes... unwanted and underappreciated and people will either roll heavy classes or elementimentalists (or even mesmers maybe) because they will be more viable.. OR... the last alternative... leaving the game all together. Several of the people that i have spoken to that have put in hundreds of hours on thier necro/reaper say they will be leaving unless it is fixed and viable again without anet forcing them into specs they do not like. I cant say i blame them and if it keeps up on this tangent, i may be following them as well.

That made me laugh...

• Ranger is neither unwanted nor underappreciated. In fact ranger is in a very good place in PvE and ok in PvP and WvW. It's 2 e-specs give him a lot of freedom of gameplay while it's core profession still perform pretty well even if the pet system badly need a fix since release.
• Thieves when correctly played also have quite a lot of leeway. Their solo ability in player versus player gamemode make them one of the most enjoyed roaming profession, while, in PvE, the thief have very good option to play that don't push them into a "bad" spot.
• Mesmer is loved, way more than elementalist. The only issue of the mesmer is that team tend to rely way to much on them and it quickly become a burden to the player that use the mesmer.
• Heavy profession... lol... Seriously, each time I see someone praising the "heavy" armor I can't help laughing. In guild wars 2 heavy armor is mainly cosmetic. Gear in zerk and you won't be more durable than a "light" armor. Active defense is way more efficient than all the passive defense that you can stack in this game, it's been like this since day 1 and after 5 years it's a bit disappointing that there is still players that still think passive defense is a thing.

The necromancer will most likely keep it's place in the game. Simply put the necromancer fill a niche which is very minor in PvE but have a huge impact in WvW/PvP: Boonstripping. It was the case in the core game where well necro quickly became meta in WvW, Hot added a lot more boonstripping allowing necromancers to find a niche in PvP and a new gameplay in WvW and PoF still enforced this idea with the scourge and it's massive boonstripping abilities. This is how it worked:

• In PvE the necromancer have always been unwanted.
• In WvW the necromancer have always been loved and will still be loved.
• In PvP, the necromancer slowly found it's niche with HoT and it's been strengthen to the point that it's almost broken now.

If there is an issue in how anet balance the necromancer it's more that as time pass they tend to always narrow it's role to a single gimmick while making this single gimmick more and more powerful with each new e-spec. The necromancer need diversity, as it is anet continue to put all necromancers e-spec into the same grave and digging this grave deeper is not what the necromancer "need" to be a satisfying profession.

The poor attempt to make reaper into a melee dps spec, tend to prove that anet start to see this issue. That's why, even if it gutt the reaper, what they did was a step in the right direction. However it feel like anet's devs are still afraid to part with the shackle that the basic necromancer's mechanisms are and they still avoid to look at a different path of developpement. This also might be because they are themself unsatisfied to see that the niche they intend for the necromancer still struggle to shine as much as they think it would shine. In my opinion they desperatly try to fit a square into a round shape and fail again and again.

[nekretaal.6485]

Next balance patch in January. Pvp season ends in January, but we'll probably have to wait a little while after that if Anet employees are taking a winter break. Previous patches have come in late January.

I expect to see further Scourge nerfs. Pvp players in this game hate hate hate playing against turret style opponents on capture points, so I expect the nerfs to happen for that reason, and not because of any legitimate overpowered behavior.

The next raid wing is tomorrow. Several raid mechanics work against the necromancer. If, for example, there were no raid timers / enrage timers, and the encounters were not such DPS races, then necromancers might have a easier time to get into groups. Ditto for enemies needing boon ripping (although Mesmer and thief and spell breaker can do this better than necromancer).

[Jski.6180]

If they intend to keep reaper as is for its drain they need to give it some means of moving faster or a better short lasting def. I would love to see a new shout "i am behind you" that lets you shadow step behind a player. That what reaper is missing is stronger mobility outside of its reaper form.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Jski.6180 said:If they intend to keep reaper as is for its drain they need to give it some means of moving faster or a better short lasting def. I would love to see a new shout "i am behind you" that lets you shadow step behind a player. That what reaper is missing is stronger mobility outside of its reaper form.

The problem is, Mobility ISNT only a Reaper problem and this change would simply put be the WORST idea. Why? Because it means Necro and Scourge will be ignored and they will say that "oh you want mobility, go Reaper" Reaper was DESIGNED to mimic monsters like Pyramid Head and such who were all slow. The issue wasnt mobility as such (though it needs improving) the problem for Reaper (and base Necro and scourge) is the HUGE lack of defense.

In my opinion what would be better:Necromancer: Increase Mobility and defense a little bit, so its balanced. Not the best but not the worstReaper: Increase the defense a LOT. No increase the Mobility. You take a battering. You get BIG damage reductions but you arent the fastestScourge: Increase mobility a lot. You are fast, fast fast but you lack in defense

This would give all 3 specs their own feel and benefits.

[Genesis.5169]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Jski.6180 said:If they intend to keep reaper as is for its drain they need to give it some means of moving faster or a better short lasting def. I would love to see a new shout "i am behind you" that lets you shadow step behind a player. That what reaper is missing is stronger mobility outside of its reaper form.

The problem is, Mobility ISNT only a Reaper problem and this change would simply put be the WORST idea. Why? Because it means Necro and Scourge will be ignored and they will say that "oh you want mobility, go Reaper" Reaper was DESIGNED to mimic monsters like Pyramid Head and such who were all slow. The issue wasnt mobility as such (though it needs improving) the problem for Reaper (and base Necro and scourge) is the HUGE lack of defense.

In my opinion what would be better:Necromancer: Increase Mobility and defense a little bit, so its balanced. Not the best but not the worstReaper: Increase the defense a LOT. No increase the Mobility. You take a battering. You get BIG damage reductions but you arent the fastestScourge: Increase mobility a lot. You are fast, fast fast but you lack in defense

This would give all 3 specs their own feel and benefits.

Scourge has mobility bro what you smoking, u got a tp and a sprint that gives you stability and burns ppl behind you....

[Galmac.4680]

Haha, a good one. 7 secs of speed with ONE piece of stability. And our portal has some cast time and is only 900 far on a straight line of sight. Whoohoo.

[Anchoku.8142]

Reaper was released with longer chill duration, which gave stronger mobility counterplay and forced opponents to engage from longer range. Retuning some of the nerfed chill duration could improve Reaper performance for all but bosses immune to it.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Genesis.5169 said:Scourge has mobility bro what you smoking, u got a tp and a sprint that gives you stability and burns ppl behind you....

You consider THAT mobility!? Have you played any of the other classes? That is laughable mobility when you look at PROPER mobility. Sorry to break it to you, Scourge has just as pathetic mobility as Necro and Reaper. The ONLY people these specs will be able to out run are those that are AFK and those that for some silly reason decide to build specifically without mobility. That includes Warriors not running Greatsword and such as well.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Razor.6392 said:No developer I know actually reverts changes, no matter how controversial. They'll buff things in a different way but revert them? That would be admitting they're wrong. Something that is not going to happen.

There are a few exceptions though, but those can only happen years down the line.

Riot Games does rather frequently, at least. It's roughly every third patch you see "reverted the change from patch X" show up somewhere in the notes.

[Obtena.7952]

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@trueanimus.4085 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ilmau.9781 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:If there is a 'reversion', it won't be a rollback. It will likely be an adjustment of some numbers. The concept of Reaper is an improvement; what is left is minor adjustments.

i really wanted to write something like this:

"OK GUYS LISTEN, obtena here said it is an improvement soooo we are all scrubs who do not know how to use our main class, we look foward to see some of vids of you that teach us how to play the reaper, that would be great. Thank you to giving us such amazing feedback i am about to take a screen and make it as my desktop to remember your words as best as often as possible.... "

well, but i am quite a polite guy so i will just say what i really think, do you realize you are one in one million considering it an improvement?

almost the totality of the main necro players consider it a total destruction of the class to the point it is unplayable...

No, I'm not one in a million .. you have no idea how many people like or dislike this change. Again, you're inventing things and have a level of sensationalism that fools no one. Anet had a goal to change reaper and they did what they said they wanted to do.

You need to bring yourself around the way Anet thinks

if you want to make a difference here.

i need a way to look into someones head ... because someone that never communicates with me - well its hard to tell what those people intend to do really.

Your statement is actually disingenuous here ... Anet DID communicate why they made this change to us in the patch notes. The barriers to understand this change do not EXIST, so don't try to make it sound like we are in some fog where Anet makes changes that no one understands. Even if they didn't, these aren't big leaps of logic to understand why such things are done, including the fact there is history in the game; it's not like Anet is wildly unpredictable. Many of their changes are more aligned to the conceptual side and less so what most of us consider balancing.

Please enlighten me on Anets communication. There was absolutely no reason to nerf shroud degeneration. We have poor defensive mechanisms all around and still do meh damage in comparison to almost every other class on the game and you think Anet wanted to make us even easier to kill? Can't do the extra damage when you are slaughtered in team fights since Necros are typically the first and easiest targets to kill.

Anet doesn't sit around and 'reason' themselves into believing their changes are the right thing to do; it's not a question of morality; their justification is simply to adhere to the ideas of what they want the class to be; the idea they have to justify their changes to players is completely nonsensical. They simply say they want something to work a certain way and they change it to do that. Reaper was a supposed to be an elite spec, but it didn't feel like it; it played too much like Core Necro and Death Shroud. Anet fixed that and gave us an updated spec that not only plays different (the whole point of the elite spec), it also gives us more damage in PVE ... something players have wanted for a long time.

You might not think so, but being conceptually correct is a REALLY important thing, not just in GW2 either.

No, they made an elite spec into an even more garbage tier spec than it already was. Poor mobility, poor defense, very little stability, average damage, now has even worse defense, and arguably mobility since your shroud will instantly disappear in pvp. I don't get how you can defend Anets decision, because they have weakened an already sub par class.

Your arguments don't even make sense.

You make this sound like it's my argument ... but it's not. It's Anet's process and what I'm telling you is inline with their POV. The problem is that you are looking at this as a performance problem. Look again at what Anet said they aimed to do ... it has nothing to do with performance. They addressed what they saw as a conceptual issue. No one should associate performance with the concept. Ignoring this focus on the change and you won't have any chance to make a dent in making a compelling argument to fix it. I've had this argument so many times, yet it's so obvious ... Anet cares greatly about the class concepts they develop in the game; I would even go as far to say at the EXPENSE of performance.

Now, the guy that just posted the little bit of history about the feel of Reaper supposing to be an unrelenting pursuer ... HE'S GOT THE RIGHT IDEA! His argument is from a CONCEPTUAL angle, not a performance one.

you are kidding right...

Kidding about what? I know Anet isn't kidding ... and they changed it and what I said above is why they changed it. Is that really so hard for you to understand? Again, if you think about it from a conceptual and not a performance issue, it makes lots of sense what they did. That's why I'm saying there is SOMETHING that's included in Anet's decisions for balancing other than performance. If you can't understand that, I have no simpler way to explain it to you.

Obtena, there was no balance. Everything you say trying to defend Anet is just plain delusional. Conceptually why would they design a class that is slow and weak in almost every regard, only to continually nerf it into oblivion. The argument of "gotta nerf some defense for damage buffs" would only make sense if the class was even relatively competitive in the first place, and defensively and offensively it is not. You have to play reaper at a much higher skill level than your opponent to do well, and someone can still pick up a class like scourge and provide way more benefit. What is the point in playing core necro/reaper competitively when they are constantly kitten on for the benefit of scourge?

So I'm delusional because i recognize that Anet is not balancing only by performance? Right ... and you think that way because everything is game is so well balanced according to performance ... or you just want to disagree and argue?

OK, I guess I will just sit here delusional while you believe a contradiction; that Anet balances according to performance only, yet we don't have balance according to performance only.

[ilmau.9781]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@trueanimus.4085 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@hurrado.2346 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ilmau.9781 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:If there is a 'reversion', it won't be a rollback. It will likely be an adjustment of some numbers. The concept of Reaper is an improvement; what is left is minor adjustments.

i really wanted to write something like this:

"OK GUYS LISTEN, obtena here said it is an improvement soooo we are all scrubs who do not know how to use our main class, we look foward to see some of vids of you that teach us how to play the reaper, that would be great. Thank you to giving us such amazing feedback i am about to take a screen and make it as my desktop to remember your words as best as often as possible.... "

well, but i am quite a polite guy so i will just say what i really think, do you realize you are one in one million considering it an improvement?

almost the totality of the main necro players consider it a total destruction of the class to the point it is unplayable...

No, I'm not one in a million .. you have no idea how many people like or dislike this change. Again, you're inventing things and have a level of sensationalism that fools no one. Anet had a goal to change reaper and they did what they said they wanted to do.

You need to bring yourself around the way Anet thinks

if you want to make a difference here.

i need a way to look into someones head ... because someone that never communicates with me - well its hard to tell what those people intend to do really.

Your statement is actually disingenuous here ... Anet DID communicate why they made this change to us in the patch notes. The barriers to understand this change do not EXIST, so don't try to make it sound like we are in some fog where Anet makes changes that no one understands. Even if they didn't, these aren't big leaps of logic to understand why such things are done, including the fact there is history in the game; it's not like Anet is wildly unpredictable. Many of their changes are more aligned to the conceptual side and less so what most of us consider balancing.

Please enlighten me on Anets communication. There was absolutely no reason to nerf shroud degeneration. We have poor defensive mechanisms all around and still do meh damage in comparison to almost every other class on the game and you think Anet wanted to make us even easier to kill? Can't do the extra damage when you are slaughtered in team fights since Necros are typically the first and easiest targets to kill.

Anet doesn't sit around and 'reason' themselves into believing their changes are the right thing to do; it's not a question of morality; their justification is simply to adhere to the ideas of what they want the class to be; the idea they have to justify their changes to players is completely nonsensical. They simply say they want something to work a certain way and they change it to do that. Reaper was a supposed to be an elite spec, but it didn't feel like it; it played too much like Core Necro and Death Shroud. Anet fixed that and gave us an updated spec that not only plays different (the whole point of the elite spec), it also gives us more damage in PVE ... something players have wanted for a long time.

You might not think so, but being conceptually correct is a REALLY important thing, not just in GW2 either.

No, they made an elite spec into an even more garbage tier spec than it already was. Poor mobility, poor defense, very little stability, average damage, now has even worse defense, and arguably mobility since your shroud will instantly disappear in pvp. I don't get how you can defend Anets decision, because they have weakened an already sub par class.

Your arguments don't even make sense.

You make this sound like it's my argument ... but it's not. It's Anet's process and what I'm telling you is inline with their POV. The problem is that you are looking at this as a performance problem. Look again at what Anet said they aimed to do ... it has nothing to do with performance. They addressed what they saw as a conceptual issue. No one should associate performance with the concept. Ignoring this focus on the change and you won't have any chance to make a dent in making a compelling argument to fix it. I've had this argument so many times, yet it's so obvious ... Anet cares greatly about the class concepts they develop in the game; I would even go as far to say at the EXPENSE of performance.

Now, the guy that just posted the little bit of history about the feel of Reaper supposing to be an unrelenting pursuer ... HE'S GOT THE RIGHT IDEA! His argument is from a CONCEPTUAL angle, not a performance one.

you are kidding right...

Kidding about what? I know Anet isn't kidding ... and they changed it and what I said above is why they changed it. Is that really so hard for you to understand? Again, if you think about it from a conceptual and not a performance issue, it makes lots of sense what they did. That's why I'm saying there is SOMETHING that's included in Anet's decisions for balancing other than performance. If you can't understand that, I have no simpler way to explain it to you.

Obtena, there was no balance. Everything you say trying to defend Anet is just plain delusional. Conceptually why would they design a class that is slow and weak in almost every regard, only to continually nerf it into oblivion. The argument of "gotta nerf some defense for damage buffs" would only make sense if the class was even relatively competitive in the first place, and defensively and offensively it is not. You have to play reaper at a much higher skill level than your opponent to do well, and someone can still pick up a class like scourge and provide way more benefit. What is the point in playing core necro/reaper competitively when they are constantly kitten on for the benefit of scourge?

So I'm delusional because i recognize that Anet is not balancing only by performance? Right ... and you think that way because everything is game is so well balanced according to performance ... or you just want to disagree and argue?

OK, I guess I will just sit here delusional while you believe a contradiction; that Anet balances according to performance only, yet we don't have balance according to performance only.

you are not delusional, you are a savior!! you costantly bump our threads keeping them on top and you are actually helping a lot! if the patch of today do not fix the reaper i m going to move the discussion out of this forum on reddit, on facebook, and on major gw2 forums and i would be happy that you follow us there too.

I will create a guild for unhappy reapers only so we can coordinate our work and keep our threads always on top and ofc, you will be welcome there too!

[Freyr.6980]

Obtena, I agree with you on some things, but I also don't understand other things that you have said in defense of Anet.

I don't know why having the balance team communicate with players is a bad thing. It shouldn't be seen as "having players consult them" ... merely creating a dialogue with their users. I've seen open lines of communication between devs/users work extremely well for the longevity and morale of a game. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of communication between Anet and their customers, so doing anything to increase the communication would be really beneficial for the community.

I understand Anet designed the game, and it's their vision, but the game would be nothing without players to populate it - they partially designed the game for us. So while I agree that they have license over the direction they want the game to go in, I don't think that their voice is the only one that matters in this situation. The players who are intimate with one class over others may have insights with their practical experience. I think it's pretty naive to think that the developers know exactly how to tweak their game because they developed it. There is merit to being a developer for sure, but there is also some merit to the practical experience of the people who actually play the game and may have a more nuanced understanding of their class that hasn't exactly been thought of by any of the developers since their perspective is, in some ways, different. I know that they also play the game so they also have this experience, but I just think that there are people out there who have an entirely consumer based perspective where they are investing a lot of their time and energy into this game and so they understand certain things about it.

That being said, I don't think the community will know EVERYTHING. I do think Anet has the right to take the game in the direction they want to take it. But I also think it's worth it to invest in some public relations with their userbase in regards to the plans that they use. And I'm not saying that the community should be "leading" the way, just that it would help the overall picture to include the community on a lot more of these decisions, because we are the ones playing the game and spending our money on it.

I know that you said a lot of people have lame ideas, so it would take forever to get to the good ones ... but there are ways around it. Data analysis is huge, and people are aware that you can't simply look at something like telemetry and use it as a sole means of analysis. It makes sense for Anet to invest in communicating with their users. It helps shape their view of the game. It's their vision, but they want to appeal to us as well. I honestly don't think Anet is actively trying to piss people off; they want us to like their implementation of these ideas, concepts, mechanics, etc. because their financial success depends on how much we want to continue to play the game. If people don't want to play the game, then they aren't making money.

[KrHome.1920]

@Genesis.5169 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Jski.6180 said:If they intend to keep reaper as is for its drain they need to give it some means of moving faster or a better short lasting def. I would love to see a new shout "i am behind you" that lets you shadow step behind a player. That what reaper is missing is stronger mobility outside of its reaper form.

The problem is, Mobility ISNT only a Reaper problem and this change would simply put be the WORST idea. Why? Because it means Necro and Scourge will be ignored and they will say that "oh you want mobility, go Reaper" Reaper was DESIGNED to mimic monsters like Pyramid Head and such who were all slow. The issue wasnt mobility as such (though it needs improving) the problem for Reaper (and base Necro and scourge) is the HUGE lack of defense.

In my opinion what would be better:Necromancer: Increase Mobility and defense a little bit, so its balanced. Not the best but not the worstReaper: Increase the defense a LOT. No increase the Mobility. You take a battering. You get BIG damage reductions but you arent the fastestScourge: Increase mobility a lot. You are fast, fast fast but you lack in defense

This would give all 3 specs their own feel and benefits.

Scourge has mobility bro what you smoking, u got a tp and a sprint that gives you stability and burns ppl behind you....I did outrun staff condi scourges multiple times on reaper - no problem at all (you should not try this when already at melee range and condi bombed of course, but definitely can avoid combat, he can not catch up). The only spec which is even slower than reaper is scourge (there are builds of other classes that are equally slow like reaper, but not slower).

He is right with his ideas. Before scourge was introduced in detail and we all just knew it would lose shroud I was thinking "great this will leave more room for mobility". And then this disappointment of a roaming class...

Reaper was meant to keep his opponent at short distance with chills, but then ANet decided to change movement impairing conditions to not affect travel distance of mobility skills anymore right when the spec was intruduced (and its design was already complete). Imagine a druid that can only leap 400 instead of 1200 when you chill him. It's a game changer. They never fixed the issues that occured for reaper with this update.