U Cele Bro?

[apharma.3741]

7 hours ago, Kryptic.4978 said:

I get what you are trying to say but it does not justify that celes total stats are almost 2500 more than a 3 stat gear set.  I can see Cele needing a bit more bonus stats maybe a total of 4-4.2k but anymore than that is a advantage.  I have had cele players say what would u prefer me using trailblazers gear and my answer to them is always yes.  TB is way easier to deal with than Cele.  Even tho TB has more toughness than  Cele,  TB still feels way more tanky because it still has the same amount of HP with Healing power and concentration. IMO Cele is pretty much Minstrel gear that can do lots of damage

The point is that the stats are only worth however much you take advantage of them. One of the main culprits (not the only culprit) of the current situation is the amount of sustain and multiple damage types layered onto elite specs and their weapons combined with the boon spam.
This comes back to what I've been saying for a while, a major problem is perfect stats. Minstrels and trailblazer are every bit as broken on their appropriate builds because they give every stat the build needs with nothing they don't need. People just single out cele for while ignoring the boonballs running around healing and vomiting boons or the trailblazer classes that have good damage mitigation and healing. Also the one shot builds that can 100-0 people if they don't have protection even with 3K toughness.
Game is a balance mess.

[apharma.3741]

21 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Defensive stats are never irrelevant unless you are just tower hugging and ganking outnumbered noobs. Because whether a fight ends instantly or not, depends mostly on your enemies and not on yourself. The build you posted also benefits a lot from boon duration. The only thing truly wasted is condition dmg. And as absurd it is, if you slap cele gear on it, it will still do just fine vs the zerk version, and might even the win 1vs1 due to much better sustain.

I have experimented a bit with a cele lb/gs "power" slb (different build than the one posted, but still 0 dmg condis) and it works just fine. Certainly competitive with a zerker/mara version on a build where it shouldn't be good at all. Cele is just that broken (Thanks to 25 might, vuln and modifier stacking it can still hit 10k+ mauls, mind you, and thanks to the defense it doesn't matter if you don't land your burst right away - you won't vs good players).

Ofc a build like that can't compete with any of the actually good cele builds, that do make use of all the stats, but those are just on a completely different lvl anyway and a power ranger won't be able to compete no matter what gear you slap on it.

Will you die running a power damage traits soulbeast build with cele? No but you're also not likely to kill someone either as the damage is lower and ramps up slower, the builds effectiveness is greatly depreciated by running cele. Zerk will net you more kills and if you're playing remotely well you won't die as you have immunity to all CC for 6s, two 1000 or greater range leaps and quite a bit of stealth.

I didn't say they were irrelevant, I said they went to waste. The builds purpose is to spike people, then play defensively, spike again, play defensively. You mark targets, spike them out and move on. You don't need to be a tower ranger either, you can add into small scale fights and probably be the only one who lives if it goes south from 10 people on warclaws showing up. Playing cele on it makes it a better get in the thick of it fighter but comes at the cost of much lower spike damage and you need to ramp it up. Swapping to cele gives you:
-14% crit chance
-22% crit damage
-654 power
which gives you on "heavy 2.6k toughness" targets -154 damage or 22% less damage out of the box at max bloodlust non crit. Factor in crit and the difference increases more. 

[Dawdler.8521]

40 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

The point is that the stats are only worth however much you take advantage of them. One of the main culprits (not the only culprit) of the current situation is the amount of sustain and multiple damage types layered onto elite specs and their weapons combined with the boon spam.

Yeah the key take away here is... basicly all elites are made to take advantage of it. 

At the end of the day, cele is the tabletop eqvivalent of someone saying well you can be a level 20 class or you can multiclass with some drawbacks and someone just yells "alright I'm a level 15 rouge/level 15 warrior/level 15 sorcerer/level 15 bard!!!"  

[Zyreva.1078]

50 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Will you die running a power damage traits soulbeast build with cele? No but you're also not likely to kill someone either as the damage is lower and ramps up slower, the builds effectiveness is greatly depreciated by running cele. Zerk will net you more kills and if you're playing remotely well you won't die as you have immunity to all CC for 6s, two 1000 or greater range leaps and quite a bit of stealth.

I didn't say they were irrelevant, I said they went to waste. The builds purpose is to spike people, then play defensively, spike again, play defensively. You mark targets, spike them out and move on. You don't need to be a tower ranger either, you can add into small scale fights and probably be the only one who lives if it goes south from 10 people on warclaws showing up.

Trying to burst once every 30/60s, then run away won't work vs most somewhat decent player as many defenses are on shorter cd and the burst is quite telegraphed. And those that die to that also die to cele. It works vs bad and/or outnumbered players - and it's a popular build because of that - but let's be honest, what doesn't work in those instances? In an even or outnumbered fight - those fight where the full potential of a build gets tested and not just how good it is at killing players that die to pretty much anything anyway - cele is superior.

Like yes, zerk is better for ganking, but is being able to kill players while getting carried by allies relevant, when you could be killing those players on your own?

(Sic'em slb is one of the easiest build for me to kill 1vX on cele, because it is mostly played by bad players, as good ones prefer builds that aren't quite as limited in what they can do. There are scarier ganker builds out there).

Edited June 23, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Swapping to cele gives you:
-14% crit chance
-22% crit damage
-654 power

The difference in power gets almost completely negated by the difference in armor, so on non crits the cele build hits for pretty much the same vs zerk than vice versa. After factoring in crits, the zerk builds deals about 18% more dmg at average to cele than the other way arround. That's assuming no might for either. Realistically the cele build has more might, quick, prot and vuln uptime, which reduces the gap in dmg output and potentially puts cele at an advantage. But then the cele builds also gets 6,5k more hp and better healing, therefore is much less likely to get "oneshot" and can recover from dmg taken better, allowing for more agressive play.

And that's on a build that doesn't synergize with cele at all. It's almost like you could remove 1-2 stats from cele and it would still be viable. Which would be exactly how it used to be. What a surprise.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Lucy.3728]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:47 AM, Burial.1958 said:

Since Cele has hardly any use in Zerging (where most newcomers are mostly found)

In this beta, my exotic cele renegade with its 5-11k dps (demon/dwarf) is usually in the top 3 in damage in zergs in ppt runs. Depends on the armor of the opponent and buffs/support I get.
I don't see him that high in damage ranking (continuously that high) outside of beta, zerg or not (same dps).
Sure, in zerg vs zerg he doesn't give the team much, but a bit of alac, a bit of boon remove and stability (dwarf road), and if I'm really wasteful (desperate) dmg reduce from dwarf elite.

In comparison, my full zerker herald does 8-15k dps in these simple situations. Anything over 12k is rarer, but I noticed it more in this beta, like something was pushed for this event. 🤔

Personally I dislike thieves, that class should be removed from wvw. They don't add anything to any situation.
But cele, I didn't encounter enough problems with that to feel annoyed and I play wvw every day. I see that some are though and annoying to kill but I didn't find it much annoying or problematic. But I'm no roamer, I just have some fun with versatile gear. And wvw is imo the best place for cele.

When I strip the cele eles and put some condi on them and strip again they die.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Lucy.3728

[apharma.3741]

21 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Trying to burst once every 30/60s, then run away won't work vs most somewhat decent player as many defenses are on shorter cd and the burst is quite telegraphed. And those that die to that also die to cele. It works vs bad and/or outnumbered players - and it's a popular build because of that - but let's be honest, what doesn't work in those instances? In an even or outnumbered fight - those fight where the full potential of a build gets tested and not just how good it is at killing players that die to pretty much anything anyway - cele is superior.

Like yes, zerk is better for ganking, but is being able to kill players while getting carried by allies relevant, when you could be killing those players on your own?

(Sic'em slb is one of the easiest build for me to kill 1vX on cele, because it is mostly played by bad players, as good ones prefer builds that aren't quite as limited in what they can do. There are scarier ganker builds out there).

It's not just burst every 30/60s though. Remember, you're doing 22% more direct damage on the autos, you do more damage on all the longbow skills used to pressure, barrage does before crit 25% more damage than with cele. If you are playing defensively it doesn't just mean you stop attacking, you can be applying pressure or just putting range between you and the enemies. You do more direct damage across the skillset that the few extra might stacks from concentration won't make up for.
That extra 20-30% more direct damage is the difference between someone backing off while pressured and getting away and them going down, then cleaving the rez if they try which the zerk version will do better.

Celestial on a power focused build is not and never will be superior, just like it will not be superior on a healing focused build

As for your other reply, the damage difference is about 20-30% before crits on a reasonably well armoured target 2681, more armour won't close that damage gap much, and with the crit damage and extra crit chance on top the gap widens where I'd expect the zerk build to easily be 20% more direct damage under most circumstances factoring in might.  You get about 40% more boon duration which I estimate as being about 5 more might stacks (main might goes from 7s to 9.5s) until you get in melee with smoke assault. You're giving far too much credit to the might and vuln and not enough to the sheer raw stats or how multiplicative damage bonuses favour higher base stats.

We agree the cele build is more survivable but the cost is that you do enough less damage that it will be the difference between someone going down while backing off and them surviving with you potentially having to put yourself in a worse position. I think Lucy above has made a good post.

[Zyreva.1078]

Again you are just assuming you get to freecast and nobody hits back.

If both the cele and the zerk ranger hit each other with the exact same skills - the zerk ranger dies first. Fact.

Dmg done = Weapon Strength * Power * Skill Coeff. / Target Armor

Assuming 10 stacks of might and full bloodlust for both, cele and zerk casting rapid fire at each other:

Zerk vs Cele: 1050 * 3382* 2,75 / 2832 = 3448,28 base dmg

Cele vs Zerk: 1050 * 2728 * 2,75 / 2193 = 3591,93 base dmg - higher dmg for cele on non crits!

With fury zerk gets an average crit bonus of 115 % (0,88*130,7), for cele it's 79 % (72,5*109,3), so once you factor that in, zerk would deal 7414,35 dmg to cele and cele would deal 6438,26 to zerk. A whopping 15 % difference in dmg. Add some modifiers (total of ~ 50 % for both) and we get 11,15 k and 9,68 k dmg respectively. So the zerk ranger has ~ 7 k hp left and the cele ranger almost 12 k after they burst each other. If they continue hitting each other with auto attacks, zerk dies after 4 autos while cele would need to get hit by 5 to go down - without even factoring in difference in might and other boons, vuln and uptime on other dmg mods as well as healing, which will all favour cele.

This calculation is as unfavourable for cele as it gets - and it still comes out ahead. So who is really the one who needs to back off first?

And now imagine a build that gets tb levels of condition pressure on top and tell me again, it's balanced ...

Edited June 23, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[schloumou.3982]

nvm....

Edited June 23, 2023 by schloumou.3982

[schloumou.3982]

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

The point is that the stats are only worth however much you take advantage of them. One of the main culprits (not the only culprit) of the current situation is the amount of sustain and multiple damage types layered onto elite specs and their weapons combined with the boon spam.
This comes back to what I've been saying for a while, a major problem is perfect stats. Minstrels and trailblazer are every bit as broken on their appropriate builds because they give every stat the build needs with nothing they don't need. People just single out cele for while ignoring the boonballs running around healing and vomiting boons or the trailblazer classes that have good damage mitigation and healing. Also the one shot builds that can 100-0 people if they don't have protection even with 3K toughness.

I think the root cause lays rather in the fundamental change of core concepts from having no designated roles and avoiding the trinity, to then pushing specs to be tank/heal/sup all at once. This way you get the boon vomiting abdominations with massive sustain that are temp/FB etc.  But lets face it, we wont even get half frequent balance patches that adress individual skill/trait performance in a consistent manner to shape fights in small scale combat. Which is sad because here shines the gw2 combat system the most. Imo a number tweak on cele is a realistic scenario that could help a lot.

Also i dont get the point of trying hard to come up with a bad cele build. Cause you can, arguably harder than with other sets tho. Changes nothing about good cele builds out performing everything else.

Edited June 23, 2023 by schloumou.3982

[apharma.3741]

21 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Again you are just assuming you get to freecast and nobody hits back.

If both the cele and the zerk ranger hit each other with the exact same skills - the zerk ranger dies first. Fact.

Dmg done = Weapon Strength * Power * Skill Coeff. / Target Armor

Assuming 10 stacks of might and full bloodlust for both, cele and zerk casting rapid fire at each other:

Zerk vs Cele: 1050 * 3382* 2,75 / 2832 = 3448,28 base dmg

Cele vs Zerk: 1050 * 2728 * 2,75 / 2193 = 3591,93 base dmg - higher dmg for cele on non crits!

With fury zerk gets an average crit bonus of 115 % (0,88*130,7), for cele it's 79 % (72,5*109,3), so once you factor that in, zerk would deal 7414,35 dmg to cele and cele would deal 6438,26 to zerk. A whopping 15 % difference in dmg. Add some modifiers (total of ~ 50 % for both) and we get 11,15 k and 9,68 k dmg respectively. So the zerk ranger has ~ 7 k hp left and the cele ranger almost 12 k after they burst each other. If they continue hitting each other with auto attacks, zerk dies after 4 autos while cele would need to get hit by 5 to go down - without even factoring in difference in might and other boons, vuln and uptime on other dmg mods as well as healing, which will all favour cele.

This calculation is as unfavourable for cele as it gets - and it still comes out ahead. So who is really the one who needs to back off first?

And now imagine a build that gets tb levels of condition pressure on top and tell me again, it's balanced ...

A lot of maths for something I wasn't talking about. I wasn't talking about the same build fighting itself just with different stats on, that was pretty obvious. You take any zerk build and then swap the stats to add in toughness and the toughness build wins....almost like toughness is the counter to power damage or something.

I'm talking about the same build attacking the same targets, in which case zerk does more damage (20-30%) and will over time, which contributes to its effectiveness more than running that same build with celestial against the same targets. smh my head.

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I'm talking about the same build attacking the same targets, in which case zerk does more damage (20-30%) and will over time, which contributes to its effectiveness more than running that same build with celestial against the same targets. smh my head.

But players will hit back and the zerk build will get hit way harder than the cele build, being forced into defense (= less dmg) or dieing (= even less dmg) much faster. And the offensive "advantage" of zerk only applies when compared to a bad cele build. A good one can absolutely deal zerker lvls of dmg while still benefitting from all the defensive stats and eats that type of zerk slb alive.

But w/e, keep thinking cele is balanced, because zerk kills players who don't fight back faster. More zerk players = more free kills for me, so i won't complain.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Axelteas.7192]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:31 AM, Ubi.4136 said:

There are a lot of things that need fixed. 

Celestial should have never been buffed, but, since they added the 2 stats, they should have reduced the values of every stat.

Daredevil should have to spend sigils to get extra dodges, not just be given 3 because memes.  It doesn't "need" 3 any more than any other build that is melee range.

Sure, there are many other things that need looked at, like why willbender has heavy armor but thief mobility, but that fight is for another day.

Few classes get benefit from ALL the stats in cele, only guardian and ele. If you nerf the stats you screw the other classes.

[Zyreva.1078]

21 minutes ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

Few classes get benefit from ALL the stats in cele, only guardian and ele. If you nerf the stats you screw the other classes.

All classes have builds that benefit from all stats on cele. And no class needed cele buffs and no class is getting screwed by nerfing it back to where it was.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[apharma.3741]

42 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

But w/e, keep thinking cele is balanced, because zerk kills players who don't fight back faster. More zerk players = more free kills for me, so i won't complain.

Putting aside all the snide remarks, this here shows you do not understand what was fundamentally said as it's twice now you've gone off with your own version of events.

What I was pointing out is that PERFECT STATS are the stats problem, the power soulbeast (or any super high damage high mobility build like WB) is every bit as broken stacking zerk/dragon/marauder stats just like minstrels on healers with too much sustain/boonspam/damage mitigation and trailblazer on high condition application/sustain/damage mitigation builds.

The problem isn't just stats either, it's compounded by ANets idiotic balance team throwing passive regen, perma prot and other boons out like crazy while slapping conditions on to good power scaling weapons or passive condition traits. Then dialling the mobility of these builds up to 11 where even thieves would struggle to catch them.

[Zyreva.1078]

26 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

What I was pointing out is that PERFECT STATS are the stats problem, the power soulbeast (or any super high damage high mobility build like WB) is every bit as broken stacking zerk/dragon/marauder stats just like minstrels on healers with too much sustain/boonspam/damage mitigation and trailblazer on high condition application/sustain/damage mitigation builds.

But there are no perfect stats except from cele. Every other build has to trade something in order to gain something else. Period. And you can pretend as much as you want that certain builds don't need defense or dmg or whatever. Having everything at the same time will be superior.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[rune.9572]

I like how we went from people blaming trailblazer/misntrel for losing, to people blaming celestial for losing. 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/106674--
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/96930--
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/52411--
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/105961--
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/115299--
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/115777--

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by rune.9572

[Kryptic.4978]

9 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Putting aside all the snide remarks, this here shows you do not understand what was fundamentally said as it's twice now you've gone off with your own version of events.

What I was pointing out is that PERFECT STATS are the stats problem, the power soulbeast (or any super high damage high mobility build like WB) is every bit as broken stacking zerk/dragon/marauder stats just like minstrels on healers with too much sustain/boonspam/damage mitigation and trailblazer on high condition application/sustain/damage mitigation builds.

The problem isn't just stats either, it's compounded by ANets idiotic balance team throwing passive regen, perma prot and other boons out like crazy while slapping conditions on to good power scaling weapons or passive condition traits. Then dialling the mobility of these builds up to 11 where even thieves would struggle to catch them.

I dont really get your argument on cele vs zerk soulbeast.  It is obvious which would do more damage its like asking what would do more damage zerk or soldiers soulbeast of course the build with more power precision and ferocity will do the most.  The problem with cele is it enhances the boom spam by a lot which gives all these builds perma prot and might stacking which negates the power diff from cele to zerk while still having the added sustain and condi damage.  Sure anet can nerf boon durations (imo prot needs to be very limited in duration like resistance is) But for the most part would more affect non-cele builds since they dont have easy access to concentration in their builds. 

[babana.7521]

someone give me all the op builds please. 

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:04 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

The difference in power gets almost completely negated by the difference in armor, so on non crits the cele build hits for pretty much the same vs zerk than vice versa. After factoring in crits, the zerk builds deals about 18% more dmg at average to cele than the other way arround. That's assuming no might for either. Realistically the cele build has more might, quick, prot and vuln uptime, which reduces the gap in dmg output and potentially puts cele at an advantage. But then the cele builds also gets 6,5k more hp and better healing, therefore is much less likely to get "oneshot" and can recover from dmg taken better, allowing for more agressive play.

And that's on a build that doesn't synergize with cele at all. It's almost like you could remove 1-2 stats from cele and it would still be viable. Which would be exactly how it used to be. What a surprise.

we already had celestial without concentration and expertise before; they were added later since almost no one used the set in any game mode except pvp, and it wasn't taken even in wvw. the whole point of the buff was to put it into common use, as the developers treat it as an end-game/best in slot set.

 

this is unlikely to change as celestial has the highest time-gate of any gear, because even players who buy it with gold are just purchasing someone else's time and effort. ascended celestial gear is the hardest set to create in the entire game (especially for wvw'ers), and this is something that game developers usually consider to be a good thing as it results in long-term goals and the devotion of resources.

 

celestial is more or less this game's solution to not having another gear tier.

 

there's a thin line they have to walk between "not overpowered" and "not worth crafting at all", especially since it sees almost no play outside of wvw except on primarily open-world builds in pve.

 

as i posted earlier in this thread, the real issue is likely the game's shift towards boons, especially boons that stack in duration instead of intensity, in the last few years.

Edited June 25, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[TheGrimm.5624]

18 hours ago, rune.9572 said:

I like how we went from people blaming trailblazer/misntrel for losing, to people blaming celestial for losing. 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/106674--
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/96930--
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/52411--
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/105961--
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/115299--
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/115777--

 

+1 from me on taking the time to dig up older threads in any light.

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

we already had celestial without concentration and expertise before; they were added later since almost no one used the set in any game mode except pvp, and it wasn't taken even in wvw. the whole point of the buff was to put it into common use, as the developers treat it as an end-game/best in slot set.

It was used, probably more often than what you think. Cele was never bad, even op at times, certainly a lot better than many other stat combinations that actually never see use ( or are only used by clueless players who want to create a special snowfake build).

2 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

this is unlikely to change as celestial has the highest time-gate of any gear, because even players who buy it with gold are just purchasing someone else's time and effort. ascended celestial gear is the hardest set to create in the entire game (especially for wvw'ers), and this is something that game developers usually consider to be a good thing as it results in long-term goals and the devotion of resources.

Complete nonsense. Your "long term end game gear" is handed out to new players for free (lvl 80 boost, which comes for free with expansions) and WvW players in particular have access to a lot of stat selectable stuff that offers easy access to cele. Ascended cele trinkets are aviable for laurels. Using the tp is also hardly comsuming a lot of time and effort. And that's not even considering all the players that run arround in legendary gear anyway. Cele isn't any harder to aquire than other stats. And even if it were, it doesn't justify making it op.

12 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

+1 from me on taking the time to dig up older threads in any light.

While also being completely off topic and ignoring any argument that has been brought up. Ofc you'd agree ...

Edited June 25, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[TheGrimm.5624]

19 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

But there are no perfect stats except from cele. 

Do you want to admit you short handed this sentance? And instead meant that Cele is BiS on Cele builds and not best for none-Cele builds? You keep asking if I read your posts and when you drop lines like this and imply to new players that Cele is BiS in all Cores and Elites you draw comments from me. I admit its because since I play a number of alts, I admit I disgaree. We will continue to disagree, Cele is not BiS on builds that are not Cele focused builds. I say this as a player that plays power, condi, support, tank and Cele. Is Cele strong on Cele builds, yes. Is Zerker strong on Zerker builds yes. Is tanky strong on tanky builds, yes. As Rune pointed out, I still stand against any set being removed from WvW as I see the set being removed as not addressing the actually skills issue. So sorry again, -1. I try and find common ground where I can, but again, can't here. Left the topic alone to allow for more player conversation, but please if you don't mean blanket statements provide more details.

[Zyreva.1078]

14 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Do you want to admit you short handed this sentance? And instead meant that Cele is BiS on Cele builds and not best for none-Cele builds?

It is completely irrelevant whether cele is bis on everything or not (and i already proved multiple times with actual examples that is competitive with other stats on builds where it shouldn't be good at all, eg pure power builds). Good cele builds outperform everything else in small scale (and are likely much better for large scale than players think). That's the problem. Not whether you can somehow create bad cele builds (ofc you can).

Also i have never asked for any set to be removed from WvW. But i am asking for stats to be balanced relative to each other, at least numbers wise. Which cele is clearly not.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[TheGrimm.5624]

16 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

It is completely irrelevant whether cele is bis on everything or not (and i already proved multiple times with actual examples that is competitive with other stats on builds where it shouldn't be good at all, eg pure power builds). Good cele builds outperform everything else in small scale (and are likely much better for large scale than players think). That's the problem. Not whether you can somehow create bad cele builds (ofc you can).

Also i have never asked for any set to be removed from WvW. But i am asking for stats to be balanced relative to each other, at least numbers wise. Which cele is clearly not.

Hence why I call out your word choice, you keep implying Cele works everywhere. Hence why I will have to feel the need to say no. So are you are really saying Cele is BiS everyware? I disagree there and say yes it is BiS in Cele builds. But telling everyone just drop Cele in everywhere is a disservice. And will continue to disagree.