Kulvar.1239 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: No. One of the functions of Legendary Runes is to allow their owners to adjust (immediately, and at no cost) to any balance changes to runes. This change was a balance change to Runes, and thus Legendary Runes should allow us to adjust to that (again, immediately and at no additional cost). And yet we won;t be able to do so, due to anet exploiting a technicality by relabeling part of old functionality under a new name and then saying that if it's not a Rune, the old assurances do not apply. Point is, this can be done to every single legendary in existence. Which means assurances about them allowing us to adjust to balance changes aren't actually worth anything. Again, while i am arguing the spirit of old assurances, you are saying that it is perfectly fine to break that as long as their specific wording holds. We're talking here about breaking of trust. A lawyer arguing the letter of agreement may say that by the letter it is fine, but the approach to lawyer speak is never based on trust. Quite the opposite, in fact. You are basically arguing for us having to treat whatever Anet say with the very same approach. Well, they still do that. You'll be able to pick any rune bonus after the update. The functionality of the legendary item is unchanged. Every rune is available. If they simply changed the rune to only give 125 attribute and no relic system was added, you would have complained all the same at the loss of value ? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 I love how 34 pages of conversation keep going in circles, with the same arguments being repeated over and over and over again. I wonder what value that has for anyone and how people don't grow tired of it. Well, 6 more days to go! 😄 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Please, lock this thread at this point. We just have people going in circles trying to explain what is wrong to people who refuse to understand what is wrong at this point.@Rubi Bayer.8493, again thank you for your communications up to this point. I sincerely hope that Anet corrects this oversight with Legendary Runes. I look forward to tinkering around with the relic system once it launches. That is probably more exciting than the weapon mastery unlocks (from a warrior pov mind you). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 4 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said: I love apples and hate pickles If I have a pound of apples and they take away my pound of apples and give me a pound of pickles instead..... by your logic I am not losing anything. What the heck? Hahah🤣🤣🤣 You are absolutely losing something. If you do not have something anymore because it was taken away from you, then you are 100% losing something. But you’re not losing anything… the whole premise of this thread is losing Legendary Rune Functionality is being lost, which it isnt since legendary runes only have 1 singular function which is freely swapping between superior runes that have 6/6 bonuses. Nothing more nothing less 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: But you’re not losing anything… the whole premise of this thread is losing Legendary Rune Functionality is being lost, which it isnt since legendary runes only have 1 singular function which is freely swapping between superior runes that have 6/6 bonuses. Nothing more nothing less You are concentrating on quantity while completely ignoring the quality. So, i have to ask you this - if moving part of rune functionality to relic is irrelevant as long as there are 6 runes remaining, would it be equally fine had they moved to relic everything including stats, leaving only a single stat point per rune? And if that would not be fine, where you'd put the threshold? Edited July 12, 2023 by Astralporing.1957 2 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulvar.1239 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: You are concentrating on quantity while completely ignoring the quality. So, i have to ask you this - if moving part of rune functionality to relic is irrelevant as long as there are 6 runes remaining, would it be equally fine had they moved to relic everything including stats, leaving only a single stat point per rune? And if that would not be fine, where you'd put the threshold? Then you would take a different rune from the set to have 25 attribute bonus. ANet would never do that because it would be dumb game design for the 6th rune bonus to be lower than the bonus of a 1st rune... Your argument is fallacious as it is not what ANet will do. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 8 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: You are concentrating on quantity while completely ignoring the quality. So, i have to ask you this - if moving part of rune functionality to relic is irrelevant as long as there are 6 runes remaining, would it be equally fine had they moved to relic everything including stats, leaving only a single stat point per rune? And if that would not be fine, where you'd put the threshold? Again the functionality wouldn’t change, and your argument is still reaching, this is no different than any balance, and you never got up in arms when they’ve balance changed other runes 6th slots using your “logic” removing functionality(which it doesn’t). they are rebalancing one bonus and that’s it, nothing more nothing less. Your argument examples are stretches as best and always try to go to the far extreme for shock value and nothing more, like when you equated the ToS agreement of them being able to make balance changes at any time to them deleting accounts. please come back when you can make an actual argument that is relevant to the discussion, instead of coming up with weird hypotheticals that go to the extreme for shock value. I get it some people just want to complain to get free things and feel special, you see it everyday in real life of course they would act the same in game. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 "I went for map completion on this character so that I don't have to do it any more and I could have all fast travel points unlocked, and now ANet is releasing new zones!? What?" 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 8 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: Your argument examples are stretches as best and always try to go to the far extreme for shock value and nothing more, like when you equated the ToS agreement of them being able to make balance changes at any time to them deleting accounts. I used extreme argument to learn if there is a threshold of such change for you. I guess you'd rather not answer that question though. It's fine, i suspected you would not. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 8 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: "I went for map completion on this character so that I don't have to do it any more and I could have all fast travel points unlocked, and now ANet is releasing new zones!? What?" It’s more like “I went for map completion on this character so that I don’t have to do it any more and I could fast travel points unlock, and now ANet is releasing a new Fractal!? What?” 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Relics should be made available to all players, even those that don't buy the expansion. I shouldn't be punished for not buying it by taking away what I've already paid for. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, DarcShriek.5829 said: Relics should be made available to all players, even those that don't buy the expansion. I shouldn't be punished for not buying it by taking away what I've already paid for. Relics *are* available to all players. Seriously, what are you complaining about? What information are you going off of? 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said: I used extreme argument to learn if there is a threshold of such change for you. I guess you'd rather not answer that question though. It's fine, i suspected you would not. No you’re using extreme examples for shock value, that have no bearing on the current situation. Your last example acts like Anet is moving all of what a Rune is to Relics and renaming them relics, which they aren’t they are just balancing one portion of a Rune what they’ve done many times before. While simultaneously making a completely new item that is its own mechanic with its own unique effects. again you can’t make an actual argument representative of the situation at hand and try to derail with shock value. you can’t even explain what function is being lost from Legendary runes because there isn’t any loss of functionality. 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo.3725 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 26 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: Again the functionality wouldn’t change, and your argument is still reaching, this is no different than any balance, and you never got up in arms when they’ve balance changed other runes 6th slots using your “logic” removing functionality(which it doesn’t). they are rebalancing one bonus and that’s it, nothing more nothing less. Your argument examples are stretches as best and always try to go to the far extreme for shock value and nothing more, like when you equated the ToS agreement of them being able to make balance changes at any time to them deleting accounts. please come back when you can make an actual argument that is relevant to the discussion, instead of coming up with weird hypotheticals that go to the extreme for shock value. I get it some people just want to complain to get free things and feel special, you see it everyday in real life of course they would act the same in game. Here you take Monk rune now and tell me that after this proposed change your monk rune is the same. Once that litmus test is verified that they are functionally different, go ahead and try to swap to a scholar rune with a legendary rune, and tell me if you get that special bonus we all target that rune set for. Ah and then try to swap back to monk for healing and let me know if you get that build making +10% healing effectiveness on swapping your runes. But wait - you want me to have to do this with a relic now? and I have to choose if I want to handicap my dps build for solo play or heal build for group play? And you want me to say that it is the exact same functionality? After I already grinded for the flexibility to not have to worry about that or carry around additional gears that possibly take up inventory slots? Look you can be ignorant if you want, the functionality change is the ability to not swap between play styles when and where needed. This change not only impacts runes, but equipment tabs and build tabs as well. This reduces their value significantly. It also disproportionately impacts those with legendary runes and more so the more characters you have. The cost only increases for those who have played the game longer and invested in these items for their convenience and flexibility. You can argue that the 6th slot stat will still be there or altered but you can't deny that the impact on various builds will be tremendous and inconvenient. You also cannot deny that the main benefit of leg runes is the ability to swap between those effects at will. While we can still use the 6 runes as you've pointed out, you are ignoring that the build boosts from that bonus being broken into an arbitrary equipment slot breaks the flexibility many grinded through to get. A balance or rebalance would not involve adding an additional equipment slot. There is nothing to rebalance on the new slot. That new slot is net new. The effects going into that slot could have just been balanced where they are at. They could have done any sort of balancing to the existing runes and that wouldn't have caused this issue. The separation of Rune A set to a Rune A set + Rune B in an arbitrary slot is the issue. What they call Rune B is a moot point, fact is they are creating a 7th required rune for all builds and that is a significant change. 3 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Echo.3725 said: Here you take Monk rune now and tell me that after this proposed change your monk rune is the same. Once that litmus test is verified that they are functionally different, go ahead and try to swap to a scholar rune with a legendary rune, and tell me if you get that special bonus we all target that rune set for. Ah and then try to swap back to monk for healing and let me know if you get that build making +10% healing effectiveness on swapping your runes. But wait - you want me to have to do this with a relic now? and I have to choose if I want to handicap my dps build for solo play or heal build for group play? And you want me to say that it is the exact same functionality? After I already grinded for the flexibility to not have to worry about that or carry around additional gears that possibly take up inventory slots? Look you can be ignorant if you want, the functionality change is the ability to not swap between play styles when and where needed. This change not only impacts runes, but equipment tabs and build tabs as well. This reduces their value significantly. It also disproportionately impacts those with legendary runes and more so the more characters you have. The cost only increases for those who have played the game longer and invested in these items for their convenience and flexibility. You can argue that the 6th slot stat will still be there or altered but you can't deny that the impact on various builds will be tremendous and inconvenient. You also cannot deny that the main benefit of leg runes is the ability to swap between those effects at will. While we can still use the 6 runes as you've pointed out, you are ignoring that the build boosts from that bonus being broken into an arbitrary equipment slot breaks the flexibility many grinded through to get. A balance or rebalance would not involve adding an additional equipment slot. There is nothing to rebalance on the new slot. That new slot is net new. The effects going into that slot could have just been balanced where they are at. They could have done any sort of balancing to the existing runes and that wouldn't have caused this issue. The separation of Rune A set to a Rune A set + Rune B in an arbitrary slot is the issue. What they call Rune B is a moot point, fact is they are creating a 7th required rune for all builds and that is a significant change. They aren’t functionally different Superior runes are runes that slot into 6 different pieces of gear to provide 6/6 bonuses when using the same 6 runes. again there was no outrage when Anet was changing Superior Rune 6th slot Bonuses before which they’ve done on multiple occasions, on some of them they’ve completely changed the 6th slot bonus. They are just balancing the Runes and bring all the runes in line with each other, by only changing the 6th slot bonus again something they’ve done repeatedly and multiple times before on individual runes again that’s happened with zero outrage because them changing the 6th bonus didn’t remove any functionality of legendary runes, this is no different than those other times that runes 6th bonuses have been changed. so please before the patch Tunes have 6 bonuses after the patch Runes will still have 6 bonuses and are still functionally runes because the function of runes haven’t changed and the only function Legendary runes hasn’t changed so you’ve lost absolutely nothing. again I get it some players just want free things and will make up a false narrative of loss to try to justify them getting free things, we see it all the time in the world as a whole. Edited July 12, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 5 minutes ago, Echo.3725 said: [Snip] Very well said. And it won't matter to the people arguing against in this thread. It doesn't seem to matter how many times the issue has been explained (we're on page 34), or in what ways. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, idpersona.3810 said: Very well said. And it won't matter to the people arguing against in this thread. It doesn't seem to matter how many times the issue has been explained (we're on page 34), or in what ways. Because the people crying about a loss can’t back it up with anything showing a loss of functionality… they don’t seem to understand they aren’t losing anything at all when Anet statements and the game clearly show zero loss on Legendary Rune functionality. They just want to feel special and get free things 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 11 minutes ago, Echo.3725 said: and I have to choose if I want to handicap my dps build for solo play or heal build for group play Sorry, what? What is this in reference to? What could you possibly replying to here? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpersona.3810 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: Because the people crying about a loss can’t back it up with anything showing a loss of functionality… they don’t seem to understand they aren’t losing anything at all when Anet statements and the game clearly show zero loss on Legendary Rune functionality. They just want to feel special and get free things You ignore literally every point and just repeat 5+1=6. Or 6=6. Both mathematically true, but neither actually applies to the issue. Edited July 12, 2023 by idpersona.3810 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo.3725 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: They aren’t functionally different Superior runes are runes that slot into 6 different pieces of gear to provide 6/6 bonuses when using the same 6 runes. again there was no outrage when Anet was changing Superior Rune 6th slot Bonuses before which they’ve done on multiple occasions, on some of them they’ve completely changed the 6th slot bonus. They are just balancing the Runes and bring all the runes in line with each other, by only changing the 6th slot bonus again something they’ve done repeatedly and multiple times before on individual runes again that’s happened with zero outrage because them changing the 6th bonus didn’t remove any functionality of legendary runes, this is no different than those other times that runes 6th bonuses have been changed. so please before the patch Tunes have 6 bonuses after the patch Runes will still have 6 bonuses and are still functionally runes because the function of runes haven’t changed and the only function Legendary runes hasn’t changed so you’ve lost absolutely nothing You are factually wrong here. Your argument is fundamentally flawed in the fact that the issue is not 6/6 after the patch it is 6/7 where 7 may not impact your rune bonus but it certainly will impact what runes currently provide. Lets call our current 6/6 rune set Rune A, and lets call "Relic" Rune B. Bonus 1-6 will be Function A with bonus on 6 being Function B. Rune A currently does Function A and Function B pre- SotO Rune A now will only do Function A Rune B now will only do Function B Rune A + Rune B = Rune A Pre SotO Do you see why this is an issue for a player who already has Rune A Pre SotO? I already have the "New" content they are proposing. They are quite litterally kicking you off an arbitrary cliff that they created called SotO and asking you to climb back up to regain the same functions you currently have. If it was net new, or an override, or anything as an optional gain there would be no issue. The problem is that it is forced and impacts all current builds negatively until they can regain a Rune B item that recovers the lost functionality of Rune A prior to SotO 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 Just now, idpersona.3810 said: You ignore literally every point and just repeat 5+1=6. Or 6=6. Both mathematically true, but neither actually applies to the conversation. No I haven’t ignored any point I addressed every “point” the whiners have brought up showed the flaw in their point, asked them to make an argument representative of the actual situation and to back up their “point” with facts. All of which they failed to do 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulvar.1239 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 If ANet had changed all 6th runes bonuses a few months ago in a balance patch to make them give 125 flat stats, nobody would have made a thread "people with legendary runes must be compensated". And then they could have announced about SotO adding relic without such fuss. Some people are only whining because they make both at the same time, others out of malice to try and get freebies. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 5 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said: Because the people crying about a loss can’t back it up with anything showing a loss of functionality… they don’t seem to understand they aren’t losing anything at all when Anet statements and the game clearly show zero loss on Legendary Rune functionality. They just want to feel special and get free things They have, you're just ignoring it. They've reduced it down to simple analogies for you. You're still not getting it. We don't want free things, we want what we currently have, and have struggled to attain, to not be taken away and have to reattain it. 2 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, Echo.3725 said: Rune A currently does Function A and Function B pre- SotO Rune A now will only do Function A Rune B now will only do Function B Rune A + Rune B = Rune A Pre SotO What about runes that don't have a stat bonus on #6? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: What about runes that don't have a stat bonus on #6? Well, those are getting buffed then aren't they. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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