Weaponmaster Training Beta Feedback: Mesmer

[Panda.1967]

On 6/28/2023 at 4:56 PM, katte nici.9483 said:

I think you should stop adding stuff that makes it even harder to balance. Although at this point... what about in combat instant profession swapping. 😅

What about this makes you think it's "harder to balance?" Most professions gained exactly 0 new weapon combinations... and the addition of a few new weapons for each spec changes almost nothing for balance... honestly Mesmer gets the most benefit out of this change... we gained Axe/Shield & Dagger/Shield combinations... Axe/Shield is almost equivalent to Sword/Shield in terms of utility, clone generation, and damage output... it trades reduced clone generation for an extra utility... no extra balance needed here... Dagger/Shield is the only combination that changes anything, but all it really changes is that getting Dagger on Core, Chrono, & Mirage adds a one-handed ranged AoE weapon to those specs... clone generation on Dagger is low, damage output is a bit bursty, and utility is none... Axe just adds the bonus Utility of retargeting clones (a feature that Core Mesmer should have baseline honestly)... and Shield just adds some Defensive utility to everyone...

The biggest changes I see to meta with this is with Mirage builds... Staff Mirage might become Dagger/Shield... but that's doubtful since Dagger's Ambush doesn't grant Alacrity and the Staff Mirage build all about the Staff's Ambush skill...  Without an ambush skill that rivals the Staff, Mirage builds don't care about new weapons... Rifle might change that when it's added later... (Honestly, either all weapons need their Ambush skills buffed up to be on par with Staff or Staff needs it's ambush skill nerfed heavily)...

Chronomancers might start using Axe instead of Sword or Scepter so they can retarget clones, but given the fact that Chronomancer is a very shatter heavy espec, the higher clone generation of Sword or Scepter is still more desirable for Chronomancer...

Virtuoso gains nothing from Axe that they don't already have with Sword, and they get nothing at all from retargeting clones... Shield on Virtuoso could be nice for improved survival, but I doubt we'll see to many Virtuoso's go to shield...

The only other classes that gain new combinations are Guardian (Axe/Sword), Elementalist (Sword/Warhorn), Necromancer (Pistol/Torch), and Warrior (Dagger/Pistol & Dagger/Torch)... none of which add anything game changing to any of their specs... Mainhand Axe just gives Guardians some short range AoE, and off-hand sword just gives them an extra mobility skill.... Sword is a great mainhand power weapon for Elementalist, but it doesn't actually synergize with Warhorn, and Warhorn is an AoE heavy support off-hand... Also, Sword has no Aura skills... Pistol and Torch on Necro could be a good pairing, but outside of Scourge, Necromancer's don't really benefit from Burning, there's a reason the Dhuumfire trait is only ever taken by Condi Scourge builds... Warrior gained two new combinations like Mesmer did... Berzerkers gain a new Primale Burst with Dagger main-hand but neither Dagger/Pistol nor Dagger/Torch really bring anything new for any of Warrior's specs... Dagger just Berserker some boon denial, and Bladesword gains nothing new from it...

All other classes gained a few two-handed weapons and a one-handed or a couple main-hands and a two-handed weapon... Thief, 2 two-handed and a main-hand... Revenant, 2 two-handed and an off-hand... Engineer, 2 main-hands and a two-handed... Ranger, 2 two-handed and a main-hand... the increased options changes nothing for balance.

[Xenotime.1604]

Encountered a bug that disabled mirage dodge in kessex hills, while trying dagger/shield during combat. The issue seemingly disappeared after moving to a new map.

[Jitters.9401]

On 6/28/2023 at 5:39 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

ANY MESMER MAIN HERE can tell you that they have no problems versing a Mesmer. 

Yes.

I kill mesmers all the time. Easy peazy. Only one has given me an issue, but that is because he hides in the back of zergs and will only fight me if my back is turned and I am already fighting multiple opponents. 

I taught that boy a lesson.

Thing is... 

If you pay attention to details when you fight them you will understand the simole thing you need to do to win.... the same thing I do to win...., but I won't share since my current wvw main (if I decide to play again) is a mesmer. 

[Jitters.9401]

3 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Virtuoso gains nothing from Axe that they don't already have with Sword,

100% wrong on all accounts. 

Why? 

Why?

Why?

I'm just pulling your leg. You wrote a lot and it was well thought out. Ty for that. 

[Spike rr.7125]

The Mesmer weapons aren't really that interesting enough to use on the other specs. Some examples:

The shield is a more of a tank, heal, support weapon. On chrono, makes a lot of sense. It fits nicely in its place as a chrono weapon. Chrono is a really good tank and shield really supports that. Mirage and Virt are both damage classes with no heal support so that's out.

Axe is a condi weapon. On Virt it doesn't make sense because condi Virt is based off of crit chance where you crit to apply bleeds You can really go all in bleeds and that makes a really good build. Axe may have some use here but its just not interesting enough. Chrono is probably the most interesting spot where axe might see play with axe but chrono in my opinion is more of a heal support class that does that role really badly. Chrono bit of a meme at this point. Would love to see some buffs to heal support chrono by the way.

Dagger is pretty decent. However, its not really all that game changing. The range is nice but im not excited to use the ambush skill on mirage and chrono, oh chrono.

Weapons mastery is a change indeed and it opens up more options to the players but its just weird. Cool on paper, but just kind of weird and not really all that exciting in game. This is Mesmer specific.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

4 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Lots of words

The problem is not only the new combination of weapons, it's the weapon that was previously unavaliable + a new set of skills + a new set of traits.
As I said earlier in this thread, an example is they preemptively nerfed B.Requiem because shield block is now avaliable to virt.

There's a reason the old balance team were smart enough to make weapons only avaliable to certain elite specs, and this new balance team of absolute morons are creating a balance nightmare that will get previous stuff nerfed into oblivion.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[HotDelirium.7984]

I have a concern about synergy when it comes to the new weapon combinations vs being in just core with them. I see a very WIDE range of usefulness ranging from broken to useless. An example for mesmer would be great synergy with axe and shield on a virtuoso BUT chrono has traits that enhance shield 4 and 5. Is this loss of function factored into the balance or maybe considered an acceptible loss?

[Mnemesis.8257]

2 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

I have a concern about synergy when it comes to the new weapon combinations vs being in just core with them. I see a very WIDE range of usefulness ranging from broken to useless. An example for mesmer would be great synergy with axe and shield on a virtuoso BUT chrono has traits that enhance shield 4 and 5. Is this loss of function factored into the balance or maybe considered an acceptible loss?

This was the very issue that people have been screaming about forever. We DON'T want more useless fluff with no synergy. We NEED to have the current bugs/behaviors ironed out and the underwhelming specs improved rather than popular/useful ones bludgeoned to mediocrity in an effort to pigeon-hole the populace towards some under-utilized specs (which is a problematic situation of their own design, literally).

I used to work with someone that had a very simple philosophy: 'The last mess you make, is the last mess you clean up.' ANET clearly does not follow this simple principle and winces every time they look over their shoulder at the raging dumpster fire in the background. Claiming instead: 'Look at this new dumpster that features Schrödinger's fire!'

[Panda.1967]

5 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The problem is not only the new combination of weapons, it's the weapon that was previously unavaliable + a new set of skills + a new set of traits.
As I said earlier in this thread, an example is they preemptively nerfed B.Requiem because shield block is now avaliable to virt.

I’m not convinced the nerf to. B.Requiem was due to the addition of shield… not saying it wasn’t unjustified though… I see no valid reason to have removed the block… but they did for some reason… they really dropped the ball with recent patchnotes not documenting everything…

[Leonidrex.5649]

removing block from f5 was a PvP oriented nerf.
people just whine about virtuoso having too much block so they removed it, its all there is to it.
there is no grand plan, there is no scale min-max balancing, there is no compensation.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

55 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

removing block from f5 was a PvP oriented nerf.
people just whine about virtuoso having too much block so they removed it, its all there is to it.
there is no grand plan, there is no scale min-max balancing, there is no compensation.

I want to believe, they have at the very least some common sense but chances are you're right.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

7 hours ago, Spike rr.7125 said:

The Mesmer weapons aren't really that interesting enough to use on the other specs. Some examples:

The shield is a more of a tank, heal, support weapon. On chrono, makes a lot of sense. It fits nicely in its place as a chrono weapon. Chrono is a really good tank and shield really supports that. Mirage and Virt are both damage classes with no heal support so that's out.

It seems like Anet disagrees with you.

Mirage seems to be a better healing defensive boon support class than Chrono. It just doesn't use a Shield because its boons are tied to the Staff Ambush.

Anet has been pigeonholing the Chrono to more and more providing DPS. If can't provide boons except for Quick or Alac which it provides by doing its DPS rotation not being a support.

Mesmer really doesn't have any healing except for Mantras. But even then I think the Mirage has likely better way of doing that because all it has to do is Dodge every few seconds to provide boons so it has more free time to Cast Mantras.

 

Edit: I REALLY want to use the Shield on my Chrono. It's my favorite class. But Anet has really seemed on a vendetta to destroy any way for Chrono to be a Healsupport for the past couple of years.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Roadkizzle.2157

[Roadkizzle.2157]

8 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Yes.

I kill mesmers all the time. Easy peazy. Only one has given me an issue, but that is because he hides in the back of zergs and will only fight me if my back is turned and I am already fighting multiple opponents. 

I taught that boy a lesson.

Thing is... 

If you pay attention to details when you fight them you will understand the simole thing you need to do to win.... the same thing I do to win...., but I won't share since my current wvw main (if I decide to play again) is a mesmer. 

Without any proof or information it seems like you're lying.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

5 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

I have a concern about synergy when it comes to the new weapon combinations vs being in just core with them. I see a very WIDE range of usefulness ranging from broken to useless. An example for mesmer would be great synergy with axe and shield on a virtuoso BUT chrono has traits that enhance shield 4 and 5. Is this loss of function factored into the balance or maybe considered an acceptible loss?

Lolwut? I agree with your assessment. But your choice of example is completely laughable.

Mirage has a trait boosting axes.

Virtuoso has three traits that together boost the daggers by applying a metric kitten ton of improved bleeds and illusionary daggers.

Chrono is the ONLY one that doesn't have a single trait improving its use of the spec weapon.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

2 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

I’m not convinced the nerf to. B.Requiem was due to the addition of shield… not saying it wasn’t unjustified though… I see no valid reason to have removed the block… but they did for some reason… they really dropped the ball with recent patchnotes not documenting everything…

I'm 100% sure removing the Block from Requiem was not due to the Shield addition.

 

EVERYWHERE people complain about Mesmer. It's the most hated class to fight against in PVP because people think they have so many ways to ignore damage. The Virtuoso has two Shatters that avoid damage so CMC decided to try to reduce the defenses of the Virtuoso that way.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

removing block from f5 was a PvP oriented nerf.
people just whine about virtuoso having too much block so they removed it, its all there is to it.
there is no grand plan, there is no scale min-max balancing, there is no compensation.

They gutted Requiem entirely for Power builds.

But they made it into a good DPS buff for Condi Virtuoso.

Turning it into the Instant Cast ability with a bunch of hits means Condi Virt is more powerful than it was before the patch because it can stack a bunch more improved Bleeds.

[Panda.1967]

1 minute ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

EVERYWHERE people complain about Mesmer. It's the most hated class to fight against in PVP

Doesn't surprise me one bit… mesmer was the most hated to fight in PvP in GW1 too since they could literally shutdown all actions and make you defeat yourself.

[Vinny.7260]

Major thing that stands out from a PvP PoV for Mirage with Dagger.

The daze on Phantom Razor. Consider removing that daze from baseline and merge into the future change to Mirage Mantle (improving Ambushes). Otherwise you're introducing a rather obnoxious playstyle. You could also just remove the daze from clones and make it a Player-only bonus.

Dagger works great as a more aggressive replacement for Scepter on Chaos Staff right now but hinges on landing all those dazes back-to-back to reset your Pistol. Could use Ineptitude for blinds. Thankfully is countered by things like Untamed's bubble, Cata's INSANE amount of Mag Aura via Signets, etc.

Dagger 2 is also using the old version of skill and doesn't track the target when not using Virtuoso.

Shield feels good, forces Virtuoso to have more downtime since the block isn't baseline anymore via F5.

Axe feels good for Core and Chronomancer.

[Provocative.3561]

Been playing dagger mirage as an interrupt. It works great, but the daze on ambush skill does not always proc domination trait lines such as illusions of vulnerability (give’s vulnerability on interruption)  nor does it proc dazzling (which gives vulnerability on daze) still testing to see if it’ll proc traits like furious interruption and superiority complex and ineptitude. It currently procs power block. 

[Zuras.5394]

At first I thought ok this might be cool....nope.  But I think all this is going to do is make us only build Celestial stat armor and confuse new players because of the power and conditions mix with skills now.

[Junkpile.7439]

Gs dagger/shield core one shot build could work in blob fights. Torch stealth really isn't that good when there is often revealed and red circles everywhere. It's just so lame that elite specs can use all weapons too. Only core should use all weapons.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Junkpile.7439

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:44 AM, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Lolwut? I agree with your assessment. But your choice of example is completely laughable.

Mirage has a trait boosting axes.

Virtuoso has three traits that together boost the daggers by applying a metric kitten ton of improved bleeds and illusionary daggers.

Chrono is the ONLY one that doesn't have a single trait improving its use of the spec weapon.

redacted

Edited July 5, 2023 by HotDelirium.7984

[Hightop.8294]

13 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

Major thing that stands out from a PvP PoV for Mirage with Dagger.

The daze on Phantom Razor. Consider removing that daze from baseline and merge into the future change to Mirage Mantle (improving Ambushes). Otherwise you're introducing a rather obnoxious playstyle. You could also just remove the daze from clones and make it a Player-only bonus.

Dazes overwrite each other and do not stack. With Dagger being ranged and with fast projectile speed you barely can create daze chains with clones, they all hit around the same time and together with the Mesmer. All it does is stacking vulnerability if that would not bug currently. 

The problem is more, that we already have one weapon with daze where it fits well.  Anet should do a bit more effort and be more creative with the Dagger ambush and give it something else than daze. 

[Suyheuti.1732]

There is no general thread for feedback. I hope Anet can read this and take as advice.

First of all, you need to move every weapon improving traits to core specs. For example "Mirrored Axes" in Mirage, "Heartpiercer" in Renegade. Otherwise, these weapons will be not useful on another specs. 

2nd, I didnt like Dagger Ambush. It is power weapon, all skills are focused power damage but ambush applies condi damage. And daze is unnecessary. (Sword ambush dazes already. 1200 range daze will be OP in PvP and WvW. Reconsider.) 

 

[Omegacide.8649]

7 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

There are two traits at the end that boost the shield.......

It seems you haven't played Chronomancer since the update.

The final traits no longer have any interactions with shield 5 or Wells. This is as of June 27th's balance update. They wanted to change how Alacrity was applied, so they turned Chronomancers into generic Mesmers. Don't even have a need to take Wells anymore. Classic ANET, watering down an elite spec to the point of being core with extra boons.