ANET hates Mesmers - Show your dissatisfaction

[Nightara.1804]

Technically not a Mesmer issue, but realistically speaking, it is: Please, for God's sake, fix Confusion.

The passive tick is the weakest tick in the game, and the activation damage is way to low to make up for that. Targets would have to attack three times per second (Which is actually impossible for an extended period of time, bc the shortest skills I know take at least half a second to cast) to bring Confusion to the same level as Bleeding.

Bleeding is supposed to be the "base line condition", the most easily accessible, most reliable, but in return weakest condition.
Torment is harder to access, has the same base damage as Bleeding, but when you activate its special condition, it's twice as strong as Bleeding.
Burning is straight up stronger than Bleeding.
Why is Confusion worse than Bleeding, even when you factor in its special condition?

If you hate Confusion that much, why don't you just remove it and replace it with Torment or Bleeding instead? Then Mirage and Condi Chrono would at least be playable.

Please give Staff Mirage some of its damage back, or increase the Alacrity duration of Chaos Vortex so we can at least play Staxe.
Most DPS support builds are at or above 30k DPS right now, while Staff Mirage is stuck at ~26k - and those 26k contain 30% Torment, which is significantly weaker in any real raid scenario.

[Geronmy.3298]

27 minutes ago, Nightara.1804 said:

Technically not a Mesmer issue, but realistically speaking, it is: Please, for God's sake, fix Confusion.

The passive tick is the weakest tick in the game, and the activation damage is way to low to make up for that. Targets would have to attack three times per second (Which is actually impossible for an extended period of time, bc the shortest skills I know take at least half a second to cast) to bring Confusion to the same level as Bleeding.

Bleeding is supposed to be the "base line condition", the most easily accessible, most reliable, but in return weakest condition.
Torment is harder to access, has the same base damage as Bleeding, but when you activate its special condition, it's twice as strong as Bleeding.
Burning is straight up stronger than Bleeding.
Why is Confusion worse than Bleeding, even when you factor in its special condition?

If you hate Confusion that much, why don't you just remove it and replace it with Torment or Bleeding instead? Then Mirage and Condi Chrono would at least be playable.

Please give Staff Mirage some of its damage back, or increase the Alacrity duration of Chaos Vortex so we can at least play Staxe.
Most DPS support builds are at or above 30k DPS right now, while Staff Mirage is stuck at ~26k - and those 26k contain 30% Torment, which is significantly weaker in any real raid scenario.

100% agree on this. They should revert the nerfs to chaos vortex at this point, all other adps get into the 30k easy so there's no problem.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Nightara.1804 said:

Technically not a Mesmer issue, but realistically speaking, it is: Please, for God's sake, fix Confusion.

The passive tick is the weakest tick in the game, and the activation damage is way to low to make up for that. Targets would have to attack three times per second (Which is actually impossible for an extended period of time, bc the shortest skills I know take at least half a second to cast) to bring Confusion to the same level as Bleeding.

Bleeding is supposed to be the "base line condition", the most easily accessible, most reliable, but in return weakest condition.
Torment is harder to access, has the same base damage as Bleeding, but when you activate its special condition, it's twice as strong as Bleeding.
Burning is straight up stronger than Bleeding.
Why is Confusion worse than Bleeding, even when you factor in its special condition?

If you hate Confusion that much, why don't you just remove it and replace it with Torment or Bleeding instead? Then Mirage and Condi Chrono would at least be playable.

Please give Staff Mirage some of its damage back, or increase the Alacrity duration of Chaos Vortex so we can at least play Staxe.
Most DPS support builds are at or above 30k DPS right now, while Staff Mirage is stuck at ~26k - and those 26k contain 30% Torment, which is significantly weaker in any real raid scenario.

Sadly I doupt confusion will come back. It created a toxic raid environment where Mesmer were favorite for certain fights over other classes. Arena Net is trying to move away from this design. 

[Batalix.2873]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Sadly I doupt confusion will come back. It created a toxic raid environment where Mesmer were favorite for certain fights over other classes. Arena Net is trying to move away from this design. 

You know, if trash Alac Mirage didn't exist, it wouldn't have been a problem. Then at least us Axe Mirages would have to actually put in effort to clear things like TL or SH, and otherwise most people would be fine with the difficulty-to-payoff ratio and settling for non-Mirage builds.

But we can't let Mirage actually be good at anything beyond spamming staff ambush at range, apparently?

[HotDelirium.7984]

Why does alac from staff give clones alac? Do they even use it? They only have the auto attk.

[Nightara.1804]

4 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Why does alac from staff give clones alac? Do they even use it? They only have the auto attk.

The clones SHARE Alacrity with every Ambush. So you (Edit for clarification: And all allies) get 2.5s of Alac from the Mesmer PLUS 0.5 per staff clone, which is 4s per Ambush (Actually, it's almost 4.7 bc of Chaos, but details) if you run double staff.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Nightara.1804

[Nightara.1804]

13 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Sadly I doupt confusion will come back. It created a toxic raid environment where Mesmer were favorite for certain fights over other classes. Arena Net is trying to move away from this design. 

I know why they nerfed it, and I doubt they're just going to revert that change, just like you.

But that's why I suggested removing and replacing it with Torment or Bleeding instead, that would make Confusion-based builds playable without having to buff Confusion again.
They already replaced a Boon a while back, so I don't think replacing a Condition is that far-fetched.

[Nightara.1804]

7 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

You know, if trash Alac Mirage didn't exist, it wouldn't have been a problem. Then at least us Axe Mirages would have to actually put in effort to clear things like TL or SH, and otherwise most people would be fine with the difficulty-to-payoff ratio and settling for non-Mirage builds.

But we can't let Mirage actually be good at anything beyond spamming staff ambush at range, apparently?

Anet already proved that they don't care about difficulty vs payoff when they repeatedly bonked Elementalist whenever it overperformed.

Which is a design decision, I'm not gonna try to argue against it (Even if I personally disagree), but I doubt Staff Mirage was the reason why Axe Mirage was nerfed.
And please don't claim Axe Mirage wasn't super busted at bosses like Cairn, SH, or Largos, that's just not true.
Even if you're a mediocre Axe Mirage, you were easily able to top the DPS chart as long as you don't suicide yourself.

[Leonidrex.5649]

10 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Why does alac from staff give clones alac? Do they even use it? They only have the auto attk.

to make sure new fractal boss steals it from clones and phantasms to make the boss as miserable as possible

EDIT
you guys think its funny and im joking but no, boss can get random quickness/might from clones/phantasms or regeneration which can make him double phase which can wipe your entire team. Nobody tested that kitten boss 😄

Edited July 20, 2023 by Leonidrex.5649

[Geronmy.3298]

So axe clones' bug just got hotfixed after 2 days but the dodge is still bugging on core content and the screen visual fx is not yet fixed after 3 weeks.

God forbid a bug is actually improving mesmer.

[HotDelirium.7984]

11 hours ago, Nightara.1804 said:

The clones SHARE Alacrity with every Ambush. So you (Edit for clarification: And all allies) get 2.5s of Alac from the Mesmer PLUS 0.5 per staff clone, which is 4s per Ambush (Actually, it's almost 4.7 bc of Chaos, but details) if you run double staff.

Ah I get why i was confused...the tool tip from the new Mirage Cloak trait doesn't say explicitly that for each clone you generate that number of times the duration It just says Clone Alacrity+ and they generate the boons around the character. For us who have played it for years we know whats happening but for newer players they are going to have to inform themselves

[Alva.4590]

7 hours ago, Geronmy.3298 said:

So axe clones' bug just got hotfixed after 2 days but the dodge is still bugging on core content and the screen visual fx is not yet fixed after 3 weeks.

God forbid a bug is actually improving mesmer.

I'm so very glad they are so fast fixing mirage bugs. I just wish it would be those that make it just unecessarily hard to play mirage, instead of a bug that improves it and lets it compete with Virtuoso. I mean comparing the skillfloor of the two classes and their damage output is just ridiculous. 
And then people argue with "mirage was too strong on bosses that are affected by confusion". Makes me wonder: is it really good balancing if a class outperforms other classes only on a handful of bosses but is almost unviable on others? No, it's not. 

[Batalix.2873]

On 7/20/2023 at 10:33 AM, Nightara.1804 said:

Anet already proved that they don't care about difficulty vs payoff when they repeatedly bonked Elementalist whenever it overperformed.

Which is a design decision, I'm not gonna try to argue against it (Even if I personally disagree), but I doubt Staff Mirage was the reason why Axe Mirage was nerfed.
And please don't claim Axe Mirage wasn't super busted at bosses like Cairn, SH, or Largos, that's just not true.
Even if you're a mediocre Axe Mirage, you were easily able to top the DPS chart as long as you don't suicide yourself.

First off, holes within roles. Mirage was highly undesirable on a good number of bosses like KC and CA. So it wasn't super broken, had just as many fights where its strengths were a weakness.

Second off, staff mirage was equally viable on condi fights, if not more so because it was even easier to play. So don't pretend like axe Mirage wasn't shoved out by staff Mirage in most of its niches anyway.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Requiem.9648]

Well after review  all the dps buff they give to chrono not seem to be the issue but the fact chrono dosent feel good to give allies boons anymore vs any other boon givers sadly. The fact you only give quickness or alac it feel the might is very low and no protection and you require to run precog to have at least string of stab feel very terrible.

For mirage well in PVE there is only condition build so far with 1 target like thief how feel actualy worst since. It was great for a little moment for axe mirage but now it back to meh ... you should grab scourge. If you want run alac staff mirage well you should run scourge cause staff is back to sh... so basicaly there is not good pve build for mirage vs any other how can perform better as condi.

[dead.7638]

Great Sword three should also be a blast finisher.   Thanks anet.

[Tur Rambar.6287]

First evening i played mesmer against since the last round of nerfs...god this pull range feels so fricking awful. This change makes no sense...

[Daishi.6027]

Wanna know what's the funniest example? Thinking about mesmer's power burst. idk if this changed since virtuosos; A-net is a long way off from ever getting me to pay for an expac again. But this was true for about a decade:

The most powerful combo we had required at least 2/3 utility skills upwards of 30s to pull off, being used on a ranged weapon in melee with no solid melee support, with an annoyingly bad bounce mechanic... Leaving little to no option for follow up or escape; and putting far to much of our bar on cooldown.

Compare this to literally any other class; that's how you know A-net hates mesmer.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Daishi.6027

[Gesbo.6420]

I have one!

F skills:

Guardian

Guardian - passive buffs with strong activatable skills

Dragon hunter - passive buffs with strong utilities 

Firebrand - passive buffs and gaining access to 5 different skills per cast. We will also create a system of recovering amo charges (somewhat like the illusions on mesmer) 

Willbender - activatable passives and dashes on less than 20s cooldwon each.

 

Mesmer

Mesmer - power damage, condi damage, interrupt, defence

Chrono - power damage, condi damage, interrupt, defence

Mirage - power damage, condi damage, interrupt, defence

Virtuoso - power damage, condi damage, interrupt, defence but projectiles

 

I whole heartedly belive that virtuoso could have been such a cool candidate for silimilar system to books as you already had the system in place to recover your charges...

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

5 hours ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Wanna know what's the funniest example? Thinking about mesmer's power burst. idk if this changed since virtuosos; A-net is a long way off from ever getting me to pay for an expac again. But this was true for about a decade:

The most powerful combo we had required at least 2/3 utility skills upwards of 30s to pull off, being used on a ranged weapon in melee with no solid melee support, with an annoyingly bad bounce mechanic... Leaving little to no option for follow up or escape; and putting far to much of our bar on cooldown.

Compare this to literally any other class; that's how you know A-net hates mesmer.

The only reason virt doesn't do the same combo is because they can't, shatters have cast time. But yeah, power mesmer and elite specs play basically the same minus gimmicks.
Every F skill is the same, 1 damage 2 condi 3 daze, there's not effort at all coming up with new ideas.

[Rainbow Dragon.7268]

i'm still salty over the chaotic transfer nerf making it no longer give 7% condi damage from toughness. When they removed a dodge from mirage i just went back to my condi daredevil for pvp/wvw, having 3 different flavours of  dodges you can use 3 times on thief is fine but a mesmer  dodge attack  can't have that. virtuoso is so boring to me i love mirage but as op said its so bad right now. anet must have only added mesmer for the nostalgia even though its nothing like it's old iteration.

[XenesisII.1540]

So how many of you gonna get the expansion to show your "dissatisfaction"?

🧐☕

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Imagine if shatters were a blast finisher how nuts mesmer would be (virts would be projectile finishers). OH how fun that would be

[Geronmy.3298]

Up to this day we still don't have the screen fx on gaining Mirage cloak and there has been not even one mention of them recognizing this issue.

It's mirover.

[Nightara.1804]

Especially with the power creep caused by the Rune rework and Relics - can we please get the old Confusion back? Or get it replaced with Torment?
Both Staff and Axe Mirage are heavily outclassed by Chrono and Virtuoso now, especially considering Weaponmaster Training.

Before SotO, you could at least still argue for Staff Mirage being a fully ranged DPS support build - but now I can just grab a Dagger on my Chrono, run Stretched Time, and I'm better than any Mirage, so it even lost that selling point now.
Staff Mirage is heavily outclassed by Alac Chrono (Who deals more damage and can bring way more utility because you don't really need those slots on the right side of your HP bar for anything but a small damage increase), Axe Mirage is outclassed by Condi Virtuoso, which is one of the easiest, sturdiest, and most reliable DPS builds with 1200 range, no random teleports into your death, and access to the exact same utility as Mirage.

We can't even use any of the new weapons on Mirage, because Alac is bound to Staff, and the only reasonable cDPS weapon Mirage has access to is Axe.
Scepter suffered even more from the Confusion nerf, and Dagger is not a cDPS weapon unless you have Jagged Mind, which is a Virtuoso trait.

Mirage does not offer any support for power builds, so even running core Mesmer would probably be a better choice if I wanted to play power.

I do understand that the old Confusion can be seen as problematic, and especially before the Staff changes, Alac Mirage (And Condi Mech, if we want to go back even further) was absolutely outperforming most comparable builds.
But merely reducing the damage of Confusion to a ridiculously low amount (As I pointed out before, Confusion is weaker than even Bleeding now, unless your target uses a skill at least THREE TIMES PER SECOND, which is simply not a thing in this game) without giving Mirage anything in return is not a good "fix".
Yes, the problem is technically "solved", there are no more Mirages outperforming everyone else by a ridiculous margin now, but on the other hand, there are simply no more Mirages now.

If you struggle with balancing Confusion, why don't you replace or rework it entirely?
It worked for Retaliation, and honestly, the game has been in a much better state ever since then.
Simply replace all instances of Confusion with Bleeding or Torment, or maybe come up with a new condition to replace Confusion with.
By this point, it's just frustrating to watch Mirage (And Staff / Scepter) being gutted over and over again, while other builds in this game are steadily heading toward 50k DPS (Or 40k, in case of DPS support builds).

There are still two more releases we're waiting for, two more opportunities for builds to get an incredibly strong new item they can use to push their performance even further, and unless Rifle somehow magically manages to fix both support and DPS Mirage (Which I doubt very strongly), I don't see anything changing about this issue anytime soon.

[Geronmy.3298]

23 minutes ago, Nightara.1804 said:

Especially with the power creep caused by the Rune rework and Relics - can we please get the old Confusion back? Or get it replaced with Torment?
Both Staff and Axe Mirage are heavily outclassed by Chrono and Virtuoso now, especially considering Weaponmaster Training.

Before SotO, you could at least still argue for Staff Mirage being a fully ranged DPS support build - but now I can just grab a Dagger on my Chrono, run Stretched Time, and I'm better than any Mirage, so it even lost that selling point now.
Staff Mirage is heavily outclassed by Alac Chrono (Who deals more damage and can bring way more utility because you don't really need those slots on the right side of your HP bar for anything but a small damage increase), Axe Mirage is outclassed by Condi Virtuoso, which is one of the easiest, sturdiest, and most reliable DPS builds with 1200 range, no random teleports into your death, and access to the exact same utility as Mirage.

We can't even use any of the new weapons on Mirage, because Alac is bound to Staff, and the only reasonable cDPS weapon Mirage has access to is Axe.
Scepter suffered even more from the Confusion nerf, and Dagger is not a cDPS weapon unless you have Jagged Mind, which is a Virtuoso trait.

Mirage does not offer any support for power builds, so even running core Mesmer would probably be a better choice if I wanted to play power.

I do understand that the old Confusion can be seen as problematic, and especially before the Staff changes, Alac Mirage (And Condi Mech, if we want to go back even further) was absolutely outperforming most comparable builds.
But merely reducing the damage of Confusion to a ridiculously low amount (As I pointed out before, Confusion is weaker than even Bleeding now, unless your target uses a skill at least THREE TIMES PER SECOND, which is simply not a thing in this game) without giving Mirage anything in return is not a good "fix".
Yes, the problem is technically "solved", there are no more Mirages outperforming everyone else by a ridiculous margin now, but on the other hand, there are simply no more Mirages now.

If you struggle with balancing Confusion, why don't you replace or rework it entirely?
It worked for Retaliation, and honestly, the game has been in a much better state ever since then.
Simply replace all instances of Confusion with Bleeding or Torment, or maybe come up with a new condition to replace Confusion with.
By this point, it's just frustrating to watch Mirage (And Staff / Scepter) being gutted over and over again, while other builds in this game are steadily heading toward 50k DPS (Or 40k, in case of DPS support builds).

There are still two more releases we're waiting for, two more opportunities for builds to get an incredibly strong new item they can use to push their performance even further, and unless Rifle somehow magically manages to fix both support and DPS Mirage (Which I doubt very strongly), I don't see anything changing about this issue anytime soon.

I agree 100% on every point. Everyone always say how easy Adps Mirage is to play but never stop to see how Cvirt plays while topping meters. My guess is at this point Mirage is so bugged that they rather guide mesmer players to play the other specs. The only competitive weapon on pure dps that Mirage has is  Axe and staff as boondps. Both Chrono and Virt both power and condi at least have some choice in the matter with Sword, GS and or dagger. Not even talking the slow kitten buildup Staff mirage has that Chrono doesn't.

I know i could always play Chrono or Virt, but i find those specs just as boring as any other spec in the game.

Hoping Rifle is a decent Cdps weapon if is not a heal one.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Geronmy.3298