quickness is easy now, people are way overreacting

[SolarDragon.7063]

I've been playing scrapper since patch and it's just... way less fun, way easier to mess up quickness generation, much more positionally locked, and locks you into using hammer on any build that isn't 100% BD.
Also as mentioned you can't save your function gyro for being a FUNCTION in any way, and none of your skill CD's line up sensibly any more.
It's a huge net negative experience.

On top of that, it's awful in open world, where it used to be one of the most fun things to play.

Edited July 2, 2023 by SolarDragon.7063

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

how do you focus on healing when you're constantly trying to execute finishers?

Nonsense, i'm hight tier qheal scrapper main on raids w1-w4, and t4 fractals+

you not constantly trying to execute finishers, your doing it while your normal rotation

 

you have might rotation that you blast most of your skills while blast gyro to have 25 might, so it's 2in1

(infusion bomb->blast gyro->acid bomb->weapon swap to cancel jump->sheld 4) and bam you have 24s quickness up

(mainly shield 4, and acid bomb togheter while blast gyro)

 

then when your on med kit, you pres 3 (watter field) or bulwark gyro to blast acid bomb that went of cd

f5 blasts itself, but it's not nessesary

 

Thats it, literaly

Edited July 2, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Noah Salazar.5430]

 

Quote

other players claim to have solutions, but it seems like they've created only very basic support builds. quickheal scrapper already had alot of limitations compared to hb & ham before this and its worse now.

 

The only limitation is, how much you are aware of your class

 

Quote

how are you also bringing enough utilities to give permanent boons (might, fury, protection, regeneration)

 

i use runes of pact (60%fury uptime) while dps support (pam or other) bring rest of fury

about regen, you have healing mist (80% uptime) and infusion bomb/bandage blast for rest

protection is f1+ shielf 4/5 (100%) and bulwark gyro (-35% dmg for 4s aoe) on top of it

Now also you give aoe swiffnes with f5, so you have 100% uptime on it

Stability is defence field (3stab) and aoe stun break on bypas coating, for more havy cc combats you swap elixir gun for Elixir B (3 stab) while taking Combac Cure (regen after condi cleanse)

Remeber you as scrapper have your own uniqre aoe regen named Rapid regeneration+Bacpack regeneration in Medical dispersion field, so you acualty twice effective 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Jerus.4350]

6 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

how do you focus on healing when you're constantly trying to execute finishers? medkit is the main source of healing on quickheal scrapper and pretty much has to be camped.

 

how are you also bringing enough utilities to give permanent boons (might, fury, protection, regeneration) and superspeed for highly mobile fights like old lion's court? if you're relying on supply crate, what do you do about allies expecting you to bring stealth gyro for skips, like in all dungeons and most fractals?

 

other players claim to have solutions, but it seems like they've created only very basic support builds. quickheal scrapper already had alot of limitations compared to hb & ham before this and its worse now.

Medkit only needs to be camped when your team is taking damage that it shouldn’t.  With proper timing of your elixir heals (mortar and eg 5) you can easily cover most damage.  Then you can combo water fields for healing as well as hit medkit 2/4.  
 

Boons in general just got easier with the open utility slots.  Blast gyro or FT + Thumper has become my default.  Thumper giving protection and Blast Gyro/FT providing the firefield for might blasting.  I feel Blast Gyro is a little better with regards to might as it spikes you up quick giving you time to layer on blasts, where FT is a slower ramp up but comes with additional utility.  Fury is the only thing I lack and I could take Rifle Turret for that instead of thumper, prot just gets a little tighter.  Lots of DPS share fury though so I’m not as worried about it usually.

 

Superspeed is less but it’s still there on Heal and function if you trait it, Superspeed does t need to be 100% uptime though, just when you need it.  
 

hScrapper, at least in PVE, is just better and more flexible now, as long as you can keep up somewhat with the blast rotations, something that was already important if you cared about providing might.  I feel like these changes increased the skill floor to just do the base level job (provide quick) but greatly increases the potential of hScrapper and cqScrapper, where pqScrapper is higher damage less QoL.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Jerus.4350

[wasss.1208]

Quickness is similar to keep up in raids/fractals/meta events. The only difference is, that you have to use Rocket Charge on cooldown, which is an almost 2 seconds long animation lock, that is unaffected by quickness. Other than that, you replace Blast Gyro with Throw Mine, and you are fine.

But for solo play, the change feels horrible. Before, you could just press one single button, to have both superspeed, and quickness, and you were good to go fast. Now only Function Gyro does that. Other than that, you are forced to put down a field first, then use a blast skill... by this time you would've probably completed whatever you wanted to do to begin with.

I personally dislike this change, so I no longer play my Scrapper for solo content, and only use it as a qdps in raids/strikes.

[Jerus.4350]

22 minutes ago, wasss.1208 said:

Other than that, you are forced to put down a field first, then use a blast skill... by this time you would've probably completed whatever you wanted to do to begin with.

 

If the thing you’re doing can be completed in the time of 2 skill casts, does it really matter?

 

I don’t disagree that pqScrapper doesn’t feel as comfy as it used to, but after playing it for a bit in OW yesterday, it’s hardly bad.  Having Throw mine stun things followed by dazed from lightning leaps and then thunderclap really makes wiping out a group of trash a breeze.

[wasss.1208]

On 7/2/2023 at 10:46 PM, Jerus.4350 said:

If the thing you’re doing can be completed in the time of 2 skill casts, does it really matter?

That was my point. Before I could just press a button, while running up to a chest, and get there faster, and have quickness, to open it faster. My openworld gameplay is often running between chests, opening them. Now I need to start the process earlier, make sure I stand in the field when the blast goes off, have to use 2 skills... it's doesn't feel the same "gotta go fast" way.
 

On 7/2/2023 at 10:46 PM, Jerus.4350 said:

I don’t disagree that pqScrapper doesn’t feel as comfy as it used to, but after playing it for a bit in OW yesterday, it’s hardly bad.  Having Throw mine stun things followed by dazed from lightning leaps and then thunderclap really makes wiping out a group of trash a breeze.

I have no issues in combat. I used to perma cc my enemies to death before, I still do the same now. And I have absolutely no issues during boss fights, because fields are plenty during those times. DPS also went up by like 1-1,5k. So I can see, why people like this change, but fighting is just part of what I do in openworld. Having an easy access to quickness is what made Scrapper my go-to open world build. Like I see a resource node, I dismount, I throw a skill, get it with quickness. Get to an another node nearby, throw an another skill... or if its a longer process, and quickness would run out, I could press Bypass Coating mid-gathering, to have more quickness... that is no longer an option now.

[Tuskali.6417]

17 hours ago, wasss.1208 said:

That was my point. Before I could just press a button, while running up to a chest, and get there faster, and have quickness, to open it faster. My openworld gameplay is often running between chests, opening them. Now I need to start the process earlier, make sure I stand in the field when the blast goes off, have to use 2 skills... it's doesn't feel the same "gotta go fast" way.
 

I have no issues in combat. I used to perma cc my enemies to death before, I still do the same now. And I have absolutely no issues during boss fights, because fields are plenty during those times. DPS also went up by like 1-1,5k. So I can see, why people like this change, but fighting is just part of what I do in openworld. Having an easy access to quickness is what made Scrapper my go-to open world build. Like I see a resource node, I dismount, I throw a skill, get it with quickness. Get to an another node nearby, throw an another skill... or if its a longer process, and quickness would run out, I could press Bypass Coating mid-gathering, to have more quickness... that is no longer an option now.

I agree.

I miss running around in open world with easy quickness. Feels so much more "gotta go fast" like you said and more efficient.

Especially in open world there is much more movement so it feels kinda weird to have stationary combofields. Sure you can leap through with hammer 3 but... meh

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i think i'll stop reading this thread after i asked someone how they're upkeeping boons on a healing build and they said "i use rune of the pack" when healing builds always run monk runes. i mean no offense, but if you're just playing custom builds that you've somehow managed to avoid being kicked over, don't try to tell others how to play, especially when they've been maining quickheal scrapper for years already.

 

all you're doing is making the situation worse for us by making the changes look legitimate and acceptible. i imagine that heal scrapper will not be included in any meta from now on since its now the least efficient healer.

[Stalima.5490]

On 7/2/2023 at 8:56 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

how do you focus on healing when you're constantly trying to execute finishers? medkit is the main source of healing on quickheal scrapper and pretty much has to be camped.

The simple answer to this is that you don't, because this is like trying to make a berserker warrior into a healer, it is a rediculous concept and one that they shouldn't even take into account when balancing the scrapper, the scrapper is meant to turn it's enemies into scrap, not heal things and because of this it has effectively no relevant healer traits at all.

[Zephire.8049]

9 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

The simple answer to this is that you don't, because this is like trying to make a berserker warrior into a healer, it is a rediculous concept and one that they shouldn't even take into account when balancing the scrapper, the scrapper is meant to turn it's enemies into scrap, not heal things and because of this it has effectively no relevant healer traits at all.

Years of balance patches and 3/6 gyros says otherwise. The official description is even

Quote

Scrappers are support-oriented engineers with access to gyros and a plethora of other cleansing abilities. You can aid multiple allies in large-scale battles with massive area-of-effect skills, healing and providing superspeed and other necessary boons. They are also adept at crowd control.

with the HoT release saying

Quote

With Mordremoth's awakening, engineers that discover the wreckage of the Pact fleet can choose to learn the ways of the resourceful scrappers. These masters of improvisation gain access to the mighty hammer while crafting utilitarian gyros to accomplish all manner of arduous tasks. A pinnacle of their craft is the function gyro, capable of restoring health to waning allies and dealing the coup de grâce to lingering foes. They bring a bruising style of lockdown and negation melee to the engineer.

Scrapper has always been a tanky support that happens to do DPS when built that way, just like it can be built to heal and provide boons and scrapper has spent more time as healer than it has as DPS in instanced PvE content and WvW. Even if Anet wanted to make it clear it's not a healer, there's far more elegant ways of doing it or, you know, saying it explicitly so there's no confusion of their motivations or why they killed off a spec out of the blue.

[Malus.2184]

On 6/29/2023 at 6:36 PM, Stalima.5490 said:

heres an easy combo:

Blast gyro > function gyro > throw mine

The change was made with the intention to remove the mandatory function of Gyros for Quickness and only resulted in another set of abilities being mandatory, which means that they can never be used intentionally for the utility they provide since you need to blast them to upkeep Quickness. What has practically changed?

Meanwhile, on Quick Herald I get a 100% uptime on Quickness while pressing one button and the duration is also longer than the refresh, so, eventually I can change to another legend to use a Utility while still having Quickness uptime.

[Stalima.5490]

7 hours ago, Zephire.8049 said:

Years of balance patches and 3/6 gyros says otherwise. The official description is even

erm... what are you talking about...

 

The medic gyro is more of a tank gyro

The shredder is dps

Blast gyro is dps

Bulwark gyro is a tank gyro

purge gyro is also a tank gyro

Sneak gyro is more a dps gyro because of sneak attacks/escapes etc

 

The difference between a tank and a healer skill is that tank skills prevent damage while healer skills restore that damage back, as such the scrapper has effectively zero capabilities tailored to being a healer.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[Zephire.8049]

8 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

erm... what are you talking about...

 

The medic gyro is more of a tank gyro

The shredder is dps

Blast gyro is dps

Bulwark gyro is a tank gyro

purge gyro is also a tank gyro

Sneak gyro is more a dps gyro because of sneak attacks/escapes etc

 

The difference between a tank and a healer skill is that tank skills prevent damage while healer skills restore that damage back, as such the scrapper has effectively zero capabilities tailored to being a healer.

• Medic Gyro: "Deploy a medic gyro to heal yourself and nearby allies."
• Bulwark Gyro: "Deploy a bulwark gyro to grant you barrier and redirect damage to you from nearby allies."
• Purge Gyro: "Deploy a purge gyro to remove conditions from you and your nearby allies."

Traits

• Comeback Cure: "Grant regeneration when you remove a condition from an ally."
• Purity of Purpose: "When you would cleanse a condition from an ally, convert it into a boon instead."
• Over Shield: "Shield skills grant protection to nearby allies. Protection on you gains increased damage reduction."
• Cleansing Synergy: "Using a heal skill triggers a cleansing pulse around you."
• Reconstruction Enclosure: "Grant protection to nearby allies when you use a heal skill."
• Soothing Detonation: "Heal nearby allies when using a tool belt skill."
• Health Insurance: "Increase your incoming healing effectiveness. Gain increased healing to others while using a med kit."
• Anticorrosion Plating: "When you grant protection to an ally, cleanse conditions from them."
• Medical Dispersion Field: "While in combat, a percentage of healing you apply to yourself is stored by your Medical Dispersion Field. Each interval, stored healing is spent to heal nearby allies."
• Gyroscopic Acceleration: "Well abilities have an increased area of effect and grant superspeed to nearby allies on their first pulse. Your function gyro also grants superspeed to allies when cast."

Also you were saying scrappers are DPS. They are are not designed to be that and tanks =/= DPS. Also I'd say Med Kit being unable to heal the engineer on its #1 and #2 is a good example on how engineer was intended to have a heal spec, a spec that scrapper had to tools to utilize and make viable instead of a meme build where other professions did healing much, much better. E.G. druid, tempest, firebrand, revenant.

If heal scourge is (was) a spec that largely revolved around preventing damage to allies but was accepted as a healing spec, so was heal scrapper which has far more direct healing abilities than heal scourge ever did.

[Stalima.5490]

14 minutes ago, Zephire.8049 said:

• Medic Gyro: "Deploy a medic gyro to heal yourself and nearby allies."
• Bulwark Gyro: "Deploy a bulwark gyro to grant you barrier and redirect damage to you from nearby allies."
• Purge Gyro: "Deploy a purge gyro to remove conditions from you and your nearby allies."

Traits

• Comeback Cure: "Grant regeneration when you remove a condition from an ally."
• Purity of Purpose: "When you would cleanse a condition from an ally, convert it into a boon instead."
• Over Shield: "Shield skills grant protection to nearby allies. Protection on you gains increased damage reduction."
• Cleansing Synergy: "Using a heal skill triggers a cleansing pulse around you."
• Reconstruction Enclosure: "Grant protection to nearby allies when you use a heal skill."
• Soothing Detonation: "Heal nearby allies when using a tool belt skill."
• Health Insurance: "Increase your incoming healing effectiveness. Gain increased healing to others while using a med kit."
• Anticorrosion Plating: "When you grant protection to an ally, cleanse conditions from them."
• Medical Dispersion Field: "While in combat, a percentage of healing you apply to yourself is stored by your Medical Dispersion Field. Each interval, stored healing is spent to heal nearby allies."
• Gyroscopic Acceleration: "Well abilities have an increased area of effect and grant superspeed to nearby allies on their first pulse. Your function gyro also grants superspeed to allies when cast."

Also you were saying scrappers are DPS. They are are not designed to be that and tanks =/= DPS. Also I'd say Med Kit being unable to heal the engineer on its #1 and #2 is a good example on how engineer was intended to have a heal spec, a spec that scrapper had to tools to utilize and make viable instead of a meme build where other professions did healing much, much better. E.G. druid, tempest, firebrand, revenant.

If heal scourge is (was) a spec that largely revolved around preventing damage to allies but was accepted as a healing spec, so was heal scrapper which has far more direct healing abilities than heal scourge ever did.

 

You need to just accept it, in terms of healing other people, the scrapper specialisation literally only provides the medic gyro and that's it and you have to give up the med kit just to get that, it has things that could techncially help healing but these are generally more tank oriented abilities designed to protect allies rather than heal them and the mechanist wil just heal way better as the mechanist is actually getting a 20% healing increase to regeneration making it have extremely high regen values while it's shields do not put the mechanist themselves in danger at all like with the scrapper.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[Noxin.9276]

I strongly prefer the new system. Its more involved for sure, but I've always seen engineer as a profession that didn't go the easy route (before mechanist became a thing) and I find that from the perspective of a dps quick its a great deal more fun and effective than spamming gyros - the whirl finishers seem too obvious of a thing to overlook, so I expect it was very difficult to balance, yielding to what we have now.

[wraith.7243]

It may be easy, but its clunky and can result in you being out of position just to do what we used to do with a button press. 

Please revert and stop trying to change scrapper.  It's one of the most beloved elite specs for a reason and I don't understand who at Arena net feels anyone wants this.

[ProfCarson.7124]

As many people have voiced already, it isn't that quickness is hard to apply now, it's that it's now clunky feeling and honestly don't fix the problem Anet set out to fix; freeing up utility skill and stopping the need to spam skills to upkeep quickness. With the recent changes you are now forced to use same the same set, just with blast gyro replaced with throw mine, and now you have to rely on rocket charge to generate a lot of quickness, which is impossible to do on a stationary group that is not on an enemy, as it launches yourself forward. I've seen some great concepts by people that integrate the gyros into the tool belt in a system that seems similar to revenant. Something like that is probably the only way Anet can free up utility skills for scrapper while making it more interesting and less spammy to play.

[The Boz.2038]

People are accurately noticing the new quickscrapper to be weaker, clunkier, and less satisfying to play.

[Noxin.9276]

I disagree with it being worse - but then again I deliberately avoid leap finishers so the stationary problem doesn't effect me. Having the granted time higher or interaction doesn't feel needed imo, not that I would mind it giving me more than 25s to mess around between doing my quick rot.

[rotten.9753]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:55 PM, The Boz.2038 said:

People are accurately noticing the new quickscrapper to be weaker, clunkier, and less satisfying to play.

Similarly to how they noticed that firebrand, after tomes rework, will be worse.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

To be fair, while I dont find it too bad for PvE I understand where people come from. We went from a very spammy gyro playstyle to a combo field playstyle involving leaps and blast. We can debate about whether spamming skill off CD is a good way to provide boon but having to pay attention to your surounding before using a blast/leap finisher just to apply quickness can be annoying, especially when Harbringer for instance bring quickness by simply existing or other spec are still the same old spam skill on CD.

 

On that aspect whether we like or not, Scrapper did get "nerfed" in term of accessibility.

[Vandal.5621]

So your solution to the problem of "Scrappers shouldn't have to waste Blast Gyro on CD" is to just make Engis now have to waste both Blast Gyro and Function Gyro on CD? Yikes.

They need to either revert this change or put Quickness on something Engineers actually want to include in their normal rotations.

[Jerus.4350]

19 minutes ago, Vandal.5621 said:

So your solution to the problem of "Scrappers shouldn't have to waste Blast Gyro on CD" is to just make Engis now have to waste both Blast Gyro and Function Gyro on CD? Yikes.

They need to either revert this change or put Quickness on something Engineers actually want to include in their normal rotations.

If you're taking Blast Gyro, you don't have to hit either off cooldown as you have WAY more potential uptime than you need even with full zerker gear(~136% uptime).   Just Rocket Charge, Throw Mine, and AAR is enough to cover quickness(~101% uptime), using Function Gyro is to add wiggle room (~118% uptime), and if you add Blast Gyro on top you can space out the usage of whichever skills you want.  Though, if I'm taking Blast Gyro it's because I want to contribute to Might uptime and then I'll probably do Blast->Function just for the extra 3 might stacks. 

 

The change has a lot of options you can take. 

Here is a list of skills and theoretical uptimes in full zerker.  Mix and match to find what works for you, or add some boon duration (These are calculated with 24$ BD which is what you get from the power ->Concentration conversion with the trait). 

NAME	THEORETICAL UPTIME PER SKILL
FUNCTION GYRO	14.29%
FLAME BLAST	44.12%
BIG OL'BOMB	16.67%
HEALING TURRET	16.67%
INFUSION BOMB	11.54%
MAGNETIC INVERSION	16.67%
ACID BOMB	20.00%
ROCKET CHARGE	44.44%
THROW MINE	25.86%
JUMP SHOT	16.67%
RIFLE TURRET	16.67%
RUMBLE	7.69%
Aim-Assisted Rocket	11.32%
Lightning Hammer	100.00%
Blast Gyro	14.29%

 

[Vandal.5621]

2 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

If you're taking Blast Gyro, you don't have to hit either off cooldown as you have WAY more potential uptime than you need even with full zerker gear(~136% uptime).   Just Rocket Charge, Throw Mine, and AAR is enough to cover quickness(~101% uptime), using Function Gyro is to add wiggle room (~118% uptime), and if you add Blast Gyro on top you can space out the usage of whichever skills you want.  Though, if I'm taking Blast Gyro it's because I want to contribute to Might uptime and then I'll probably do Blast->Function just for the extra 3 might stacks. 

 

The change has a lot of options you can take. 

Here is a list of skills and theoretical uptimes in full zerker.  Mix and match to find what works for you, or add some boon duration (These are calculated with 24$ BD which is what you get from the power ->Concentration conversion with the trait). 

 

NAME	THEORETICAL UPTIME PER SKILL
FUNCTION GYRO	14.29%
FLAME BLAST	44.12%
BIG OL'BOMB	16.67%
HEALING TURRET	16.67%
INFUSION BOMB	11.54%
MAGNETIC INVERSION	16.67%
ACID BOMB	20.00%
ROCKET CHARGE	44.44%
THROW MINE	25.86%
JUMP SHOT	16.67%
RIFLE TURRET	16.67%
RUMBLE	7.69%
Aim-Assisted Rocket	11.32%
Lightning Hammer	100.00%
Blast Gyro	14.29%

 

And if you're taking Blast Gyro and Throw Mine, you're taking sub-optimal choices and hampering your DPS.

The elegant solution is to make it easy to apply. Like putting it on Explosions.