Are Quick/Alac Boons or PROBLEMS?

[Drag You Down.2615]

@Cal Cohen.2358 Sorry to @ you so frequently, but I think if I don't do that, probably you will never see. (I know even if I @ you every time, probably you still won't notice.)

Many people have addressed that quickness and alac are weird and problematic.

If the idea is just to let us have them at all time in pve, why don't you reduce the cooldown and action time directly?

There are three ways to make alac and quick healthier.

1. In order to make them effective, or like a buff rather than a problem, just make ALL the supports not able to hold them for 100% uptime, probably 60 or 50%. Also making them less important, like reduce the CD reduction to 15% for alac, reduce the animation reduction to 33% for quick. So people can feel it is a buff rather than something you are forced to keep, like or the other defensive boons.

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2. Another way, and a more PRACTICAL way, is making them like might. 1 stack quickness gives you 4% of action speed, capped at 15 stacks; 1 stack alacrity gives you 2% of cooldown reduction, capped at 15. And in their design, make them impossible to get to 15 stacks by at least 2 people. For example, the normal skill with 20 secs CD will only provide 2 stacks of quick for 5 to 7 secs, or a skill with 30 secs CD can provide 1 stack of alacrity for 15 secs or 3 stacks of alacrity for 5 secs.  And the duration does not stack up, but only the intensity, just like might.

The purpose is to letting people feel they are buffed by the dynamic changes of stacks, so people lower their expectations towards them and treat them normally. The same can be applied to fury, 1 stack fury provide 2% of crit chance capped at 15.

Might supposes to be stronger than alac and quick by its nature, but it is much healthier and less controversial due to its mechanic and accessibility. I wonder if might and fury are as rare as quick and alac, will there be something called MIGHT HEAL, or FURY DPS?

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3. Or, JUST DELETE THEM!!! THEY ARE kitten!!!

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The offensive boons are demanded, because all the game modes requires dps. We have dps check in some CMs, but we have never heard HEALING CHECK such a thing.

I designed a fight when I was bored. I will shared it here just for fun:

Since we have two healers in the strikes and raids, we can have a phase like this. One NPC is using magic to save all of you, but that NPC is taking high burning damage, cannot protect itself or be revived. If that NPC dies, the group will be wiped. So one healer must go into a different place, like a small platform or go through a portal to heal that NPC. If that is a portal, the portal can only allow one person to go in, after that it disappears; if that is a platform, it can only take NPC and one more person, after the next person step on it, it breaks and NPC dies and group gg. The dps must do all the other mechanics, like kill adds to collect some unnamed energy from them as a way to end this phase, the more adds present in the main field at the same time, the higher damage that NPC will take. Another healer must be able to keep ALL 8 dps + him/herself alive.

If quick and alac are not problems anymore, the people don't have to be divided into sub groups, but just a large group in PvE.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Drag You Down.2615
@ our DEAR designer

[SlayerXX.7138]

4 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

1. In order to make them effective, or like a buff rather than a problem, just make ALL the supports not able to hold them for 100% uptime, probably 60 or 50%. 

Somebody forgot that concentration is in the game. All that accomplished is bringing the dps down a little. Healer who already have concentration would also be overtly affected by it. Balancing that for specs, who heal and dps will be a nightmare for no gain. Reducing the power of the buffs themselves might help, but new content is balanced around these buff. The buffs would probably still be meta so the problem isn't even solved. Also that would be a gigantic nerf to player output, I doubt people want that, but could be wrong on that. It will also change the feel of how the class play in instanced content, doubt people will like that much.

4 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Another way, and a more PRACTICAL way, is making them like might. 1 stack quickness gives you 4% of action speed, capped at 15 stacks; 1 stack alacrity gives you 2% of cooldown reduction, capped at 15. And in their design, make them impossible to get to 15 stacks by at least 2 people. For example, the normal skill with 20 secs CD will only provide 2 stacks of quick for 5 to 7 secs, or a skill with 30 secs CD can provide 1 stack of alacrity for 15 secs or 3 stacks of alacrity for 5 secs.  And the duration does not stack up, but only the intensity, just like might.

Really cool idea. But just like might there will be the people who provide enough of it and the people you do not invite to the group.

4 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

JUST DELETE THEM!!! THEY ARE kitten!!!

Based take.

Edited June 30, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Drag You Down.2615]

14 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Really cool idea. But just like might there will be the people who provide enough of it and the people you do not invite to the group.

Surely, but I just think boon should be much rarer and less significant. It should be something that is hard to keep for 100%. What I mean is that, the game should reduce the importance of the boons. If the skills are being too weak, just buff its utility or damage or healing, but not providing more and more boons as a way to buff.

Currently, every balance is around boons, as if providing boons is the only value of supports. Guild Wars 2 should be called BOON WARS 2. XD 

Making them as something like: if you have that will be great, but if you don't, that's also fine.

Many boons are already in this situation now, like regeneration, resolution, resistance, they are all defensive boons.

We can then probably have something else add to them to be more creative, like superspeed, aura, they are also very cool.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Drag You Down.2615

[SlayerXX.7138]

7 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Surely, but I just think boon should be much rarer and less significant. It should be something that is hard to keep for 100%. What I mean is that, the game should reduce the importance of the boons. If the skills are being too weak, just buff its utility or damage or healing, but not providing more and more boons as a way to buff.

That sounds nice in theory. In Practice not possible. Keeping the boons low has all the balance problems of keeping it at 100%. More so because at 100% you can overshoot a little with no bad effect.
Making it less significant, maybe? But that is something people should discuss, when the outrage is over. Don't forget the forum is a subsection, we don't want to break the game because the people on the forum are angry right now.

Edited June 30, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Drag You Down.2615]

2 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

That sounds nice in theory. In Practice not possible. Keeping the boons low has all the balance problems of keeping it at 100%. More so because at 100% you can overshoot a little with no bad effect.
Making it less significant, maybe? But that is something people should discuss, when the outrage is over.

As what I said in the very beginning, if everyone can have alac, quick, fury, 25 stacks of might at all time in pve, then why don't we just give them to the character directly instead of giving those things as boons. The results are the same, having a skill with 16 secs with no alac and having a skill with 20 secs but reduced to 16 secs through alac. I mean, in general, that is just purely a bad design, wasting the potential of combat system, because they can utilize those spaces to add something better, something more creative.

[SlayerXX.7138]

14 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

As what I said in the very beginning, if everyone can have alac, quick, fury, 25 stacks of might at all time in pve, then why don't we just give them to the character directly instead of giving those things as boons. The results are the same, having a skill with 16 secs with no alac and having a skill with 20 secs but reduced to 16 secs through alac. I mean, in general, that is just purely a bad design, wasting the potential of combat system, because they can utilize those spaces to add something better, something more creative.

Which will bring probably more problems then it solves. Balancing a game in the time of the internet is no easy task. 

[Drag You Down.2615]

Just now, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Which will bring probably more problems then it solves. Balancing a game in the time of the internet is no easy task. 

I understand that. And that's why nearly all mmorpg are having a tendency of being homogeneous, ultimately become something like FF14, which is very tragic.

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

As what I said in the very beginning, if everyone can have alac, quick, fury, 25 stacks of might at all time in pve, then why don't we just give them to the character directly instead of giving those things as boons. The results are the same

If you are supposed to kill the boss, why don't we just give you the rewards instantly, and skip the fight? The results are the same...

Edited June 30, 2023 by The Boz.2038

[Endaris.1452]

3 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

All that accomplished is bringing the dps down a little.

Would honestly be a good thing.

When I started getting into endgame PvE, diviner and ritualist didn't exist so you were effectively running 2 support and 3 DPS rather than this 1 support 4 DPS abomination we have here because most quickness DPS and whatever aren't even required to invest significantly in concentration.

People should have to commit to support roles rather than just do it on the side with no significant investment.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Endaris.1452

[Raven.1793]

Mandatory quickness and alacrity are problems. LFGs always block on boon support. Applying boons is work, not fun and in general, players will not play support dps if they could play pure dps. The best support characters are the ones that require the least effort to apply the boons. This leads to the current situation where 2-3 builds dominate each role. Artificially limiting boon availability will only make the problem worse as the meta will shift towards the build that can provide the best uptime for each boon. Remember when they nerfed chrono in HoT? People just ran 2 chronos instead. Either remove boons completely or make them so easy to apply that boon support essentially plays like a full healer or full dps minus some numeric effectiveness. Keep in mind that might, fury, and vulnerability used to be key boons (and one condition). They are no longer an issue now because any team comp will easily overcap.

[Caitmonster.9036]

Remove Alac and Quickness completely, and tune up cast times and cooldowns throughout the game to compensate. It's surely gotta be better than the 'balance' we have now.

[Antycypator.9874]

I would start with decreasing quickness effectiveness from 50% to 25%, because it's causing combat to be too fast. It's so fast, that it is ADDICTIVE.

Sharing perma quickness with low Concentration (or even zero Boon Duration) is also a problem. I like how some personal-quickness skills won't allow you to have perma quick, even with 100% BD. Haste, Quickening Zephyr or Elixir H are good examples — quick, situational boost.

Alac is fine, because it always require you to choose between powerful DPS trait or access to quickness. Quickness is already huge DPS increase, so even if you have to decide between dmg increase or quick, then quickness makes your game faster with the same damage.

[Val.7826]

I'm happy that someone else thinks like me about Q and A, evey time I give an opinion somewhere about how much those 2 boons should be reworked I receive a plethora of confused faces. Apparently, the only thing that sells here is the big number on players's dps meter.

I like your practical solution about giving stacks of Q and A, but the max value of both should be reduced anyway, Quickness more then Alacrity.

Those boons will be meta anyway, same as every boon, but at least they'd be more similar in efficiency to fury or might in team dps.

[kawaiiboy.2685]

People are yelling at CMC from text now? If this does not get to their heads try yelling at CMC with a video or voicemail lol

[oCynder.5136]

Even if we reduced the quick or alac uptime, it doesn't do anything as people will make them mandatory. Also say hello to concentration for longer boon duration. The issue underlying is when they got introduced into the meta to party wide and stepping away from it being super unique class buffs, the meta pretty much shifted. Boons used to feel like a luxury during the core days and now you can just spit out every boons under a few seconds rather trying to combo for it or have specific classes to might stack (hello guardian staff 4 or warrior shouts and others who can also give it [counting core days only]).

 Maybe it is the right solution is to remove the necessity of quick and alac, rebalance how boons are applied and how they are used, and retweak all classes. But they won't do that as they probably don't want to spend thousands of dollars to fix what they have started.

[Angesombre.4630]

I don't know what would be best but I find that for my part Quick/Alac are a real problem of balance for the game. Maybe not strong enough for solo play in a group, he can be a monster for the group, or the opposite. What's more, it complicates the way you set damage on skills, as well as the skill CD.

All this to say that I think it's a real balancing act.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 hour ago, oCynder.5136 said:

Even if we reduced the quick or alac uptime, it doesn't do anything as people will make them mandatory. Also say hello to concentration for longer boon duration. The issue underlying is when they got introduced into the meta to party wide and stepping away from it being super unique class buffs, the meta pretty much shifted. Boons used to feel like a luxury during the core days and now you can just spit out every boons under a few seconds rather trying to combo for it or have specific classes to might stack (hello guardian staff 4 or warrior shouts and others who can also give it [counting core days only]).

 Maybe it is the right solution is to remove the necessity of quick and alac, rebalance how boons are applied and how they are used, and retweak all classes. But they won't do that as they probably don't want to spend thousands of dollars to fix what they have started.

Can't agree more. I hate it when I am forced to play like a boon robot when I do support role. Boon should be BOON, not necessity. That's really what I mean. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

7 hours ago, oCynder.5136 said:

Even if we reduced the quick or alac uptime, it doesn't do anything as people will make them mandatory. Also say hello to concentration for longer boon duration. The issue underlying is when they got introduced into the meta to party wide and stepping away from it being super unique class buffs, the meta pretty much shifted. Boons used to feel like a luxury during the core days and now you can just spit out every boons under a few seconds rather trying to combo for it or have specific classes to might stack (hello guardian staff 4 or warrior shouts and others who can also give it [counting core days only]).

 Maybe it is the right solution is to remove the necessity of quick and alac, rebalance how boons are applied and how they are used, and retweak all classes. But they won't do that as they probably don't want to spend thousands of dollars to fix what they have started.

Yup, only viable solution is their removal, and honestly, it's not even for the sake of organized PvE, but casual PvE and the competitive modes.  If you want diversity in PvE, ANet has to go way back on their policies and remove the DPS meter and any support for them, classifying them as disallowed third-party software.  The notion of "PvE metas" is a misnomer and will never actually change, because so long as players are readily given the tools to optimize and combat encounters are static, players will always find the optimal solutions every single time, and builds will always be excluded as more people jump on those bandwagons and look for guides and things to dictate how to complete the content more reliably and faster.  Without this information, groups play as they feel comfortable and are forced to engage with the content on a more personal level and try and cater their individual performance to complete it versus changing it based on known, testable optima patch-to-patch.

In terms of game theory definitions, PvE as we know it in these types of games does not have a metagame.  It is nothing more than an optimization problem being static encounters which players aim for high-consistenty/rapid completion of.  Players drive whether or not builds, roles, classes, or otherwise are part of these optimal solutions.  Anything not involved in this is deemed unnecessary by the community at large, and never changes unless either:

1.)  The encounter is reworked

2.)  The tools and methods players have at their disposal (I.E. classes) are modified to make discovering new optimizations necessary.

The real issue, as it's manifested in the last few patches, is ANet is increasingly designing combat around their presence.  That's when PvE not only has no metagame, but has examples of downright invalid choices.  That much is bad, and that much is not restricted to the existence of the boons and their availability but ANet's design principles making for exclusionary content.

Quickness and Alacrity are problematic moreso in competitive where things like animation speeds, cooldown management by both caster and opponent, and boon denial play a much bigger role in how functional given builds actually are, and inherently have very low combat clarity and thus undermine the integrity of action-based gameplay.

Furthermore, because of the difficult nature of how these effects interact with combat, their actual value has significant disparities based on the groups using them and for what purposes.  Any data collects will always be skewed by this, making attempted balance broad-spectrum across skillsets nigh impossible.

In sum, the boons are powercreep for the sake of powercreep, are untenable for the competitive mode integrity, and untenable to make for good balance decisions across broad spectrum play.  They're not problematic because of how classes or builds are seen by the community - that will always exist due to the nature of DPS meters and how content in GW2 plays with encounters largely being health sponges with skippable phases - but rather how they impact everything else so negatively and overtly..

Edited July 2, 2023 by DeceiverX.8361

[Batalix.2873]

So here's the thing with all these alac/quick threads. We were saying they should be removed for a while, at least a year. That plan was ignored, and so for like the past 6-8 months we have been settling for this "put alac/quick on more classes" solutions and giving suggestions to that paradigm. They *just* gave us what we asked for.

So rest assured, if any of these threads are received by the devs, we will not see this stuff implemented for months, possibly over a year. By then the game will have added a bunch of new features, gone off the rails with all the new weapon stuff, undergone more reckless and panicked patches, and will not be the same game it is today.

In all likelihood, by the time we see alac/quickness removed, especs will be gone, weapons will be overall less diverse in abilities, and healing will be in the same state as alac/quickness are now, on the chopping block waiting to die.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Suyheuti.1732]

I think the most proper way for these two boons is removing group share. They should be just self generated boons. They can be entegrated into weapon skills like Holosmith Sword3 skill. I think this will create more versatile builds and playstyles. 

[Raarsi.6798]

I liked the original idea in that one dev letter saying that they'd remove alacrity and baking the cd reduction into abilities while making quickness only apply to the caster.

Currently, I'm in the "remove them" school, with compromise to be being to nerf them into quickness at 20-25% and alacrity at 5-10%.

[Mongk.2458]

I think they are a problem. In the end I just hope they give up the mandatory boon sharing of quickness and alacrity.

Let healers heal and provide boons like might, fury, prot with specifics traits that affect their damage and make them a support.

And DPSs have access to self quickness making them a part of the rotation as a burst window. They already started implementing boons as part of traits that ties to the class mechanics, just improve on that and the hell of mandatory boons will fade.

[Polar.8634]

just like anet realised cd reduction traits are obsolete, it's time to realize quickness and alac are obsolete for the same reasons. That is true for any other permanent boon/traits everybody takes  anyways - it should either be put in baseline or deleted.

any boon which can be upkept perma is unfun, it is not reactive, it is not timed, just perma boon which leads to monotonous buttonmush.

would be more fun to perform some decisive actions which value you can observe and get satisfaction. In terms of boons, it could be satisfaction from dps spike of your team because you timed boons with vulnerability phase, or popped protection when boss attacked (btw thats why aegis is so cool, it is just fun to use. unlike perma prot).

i would move boons mostly to apply to self category, and then give supports options to share them on limited basis, not perma. Its either changing ton of traits or nerf concentration.or delete concentration and make boon duration baseline, it would fit with idea of limited boons. Waht defines your role would be traits, utilities, equipment. could make combo fields-finishers more potent with this, and give more of them to different specs so that they can also support and it should fir them thematically

Edited July 2, 2023 by Polar.8634

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

Is having a Bloodlust-like ( WoW skill ) buff that should have massive cooldowns ( 10 minutes in WoW ) for a raid-wide window of power be permanent on raid compositions and forcing players to build the most weird builds and rotations to account for that buff being permanent a problem?

Yes. It is.

[DeceiverX.8361]

21 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

So here's the thing with all these alac/quick threads. We were saying they should be removed for a while, at least a year. That plan was ignored, and so for like the past 6-8 months we have been settling for this "put alac/quick on more classes" solutions and giving suggestions to that paradigm. They *just* gave us what we asked for.

So rest assured, if any of these threads are received by the devs, we will not see this stuff implemented for months, possibly over a year. By then the game will have added a bunch of new features, gone off the rails with all the new weapon stuff, undergone more reckless and panicked patches, and will not be the same game it is today.

In all likelihood, by the time we see alac/quickness removed, especs will be gone, weapons will be overall less diverse in abilities, and healing will be in the same state as alac/quickness are now, on the chopping block waiting to die.

I mean yeah, development takes time.

The bigger issue is that fundamental problem of people settling for the "next best."

That's why the game is in the state it's in to begin with, just as you said.

Everyone just needs to stop accepting the low-hanging-fruit efforts of masking symptoms of underlying problems rather than fixing the problems to begin with.  If the game is bad, people shouldn't be playing, rather than begging like addicts to have scraps of happiness just to get by.

Because that's really what it is; a lot of people are addicts, settling for less and settling for inevitable failure just to feel a quick high before they're faced with the cold hard reality of the fact this game is turning bad to the core year over year.