Do something about pulls

[babana.7521]

2 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

I am tired of seeing all the exploit pulls. 

Like people jumping off cliffs then activating pulls while they glide. 

And pulls that grab somehow go over 1200 range, pulling people up stairs and over walls. 

Do you know how many practices needed to make a pull like that, jumping off, pull while gliding and have to wait until the enemy is standing at the wrong place. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by babana.7521

[captrowdy.9561]

A harb hid behind  a rock on a cliff. We went to gank him and he jumped and pulled all 3 us off the cliff into the enemy Zerg. Impressive. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

So you are standing on the wall of a keep and toss your 3 man pull into the enemy zerg below. 

You pulled a thief that instantly break CC and is now permastealthed inside the keep. 

You pulled a mesmer that go invouln, open a portal and jump out.

You pulled a necro that tanks into shroud and just jump out.

What was your plan again?

Yes.

Bad calls are allowed all the time in game. I love it whenever a thief pulls my Warrior to them since that's where I was trying to get to any way.

So first off we would need to understand the distance travel application and should it account distance as also up. So that already limits some pulls and that would be a factor in tuning pulls that would work in this manor. It would also allow for consideration of what type of pull could do this. In balance in general single pulls should have more distance and AoE pulls should have less. So AoE may not apply for this change in the first place if distance is factored.

Again walls are still a terrible defensive position already. Not sure how many Necros you see standing on walls, odds are better they are on ground floor waiting or in the attacking group and not the defending group. Balancing pulls to work both directions could be an interesting test. I still think it would favor the attackers and their odds of pulling people down more than defenders but could evolve into some interesting tactical plays. So for your example I am an attacker and see people trying to pull. Yes it would be a valid counterplay as thief to try and get pulled up. If the defender choose poorly that's than on them to deal with it and either correct their mistake or run the risk. The reward to the defender making the call is they just garbbed the attackers support ele and downed them and now the ACs have more impact on the attackers. 

So play and counter play. Add in the new idea of a Ballista getting a 2500 unit pulls and now the walls and ground floor are more deadly to both sides. So yes, could be interesting.

[blp.3489]

5 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Bad calls are allowed all the time in game.

Unfortunately I can see enemy spies pulling enemy mesmers onto walls all day long.

Edited August 1, 2023 by blp.3489

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

>You not always die, sometimes u die fast tho

>Sometimes u aint even pulled hence pulls aint a problem

 

Nice argument mate i bet you one of them guys that pull people from 2000 range into a blob thru walls, people he dont even see. "Position for that pleb's" Em i right pull sisters? These people just need to git gud and sniff all the time to make sure there is no dots in 2000 range

 

Yea, that's right. I'm "one of those".  Whatever you say because facts don't matter. Cynicism isn't an argument either, mate.

Did you know that "git gud" is a whole pedagogical field of study established some 30 years ago now? Fixed mindsets and cynicism is nothing new and still doesn't provide any analysis of the pull skills themselves. Just some feelings about what you like and don't like.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

Unfortunately I can see enemy spies pulling enemy mesmers onto walls all day long.

True, same point Dawdler is making. The case for players gaming the system is hard and is going to made worse with the WR system as people will try and still work together while on different teams, same as saw in EoTM. So a lot of actions will need to be reviewed after the WR project is live to what new ways people will be trying to game the game I fear.

But since this is theory crafting to wake the brain up, picture a new debuff so that we don't muck with the existing ones and chance a weird interaction. When pulled into a walled objective players are marked with a 'Captured' debuff that last 15 minutes. While in the objective the debuff can not be cleansed, it both marks, reveals and prevents the player from opening portal inside the objective. So a player using it in a valid since doesn't endanger the structure, and if a spy the side that has just been breached by a spy combo on both sides, has 15 minutes to deal with the situation. Can still be an issue in both examples, but there is some counter play.

Theory crafting since its easy to type things while doing so but much harder to implement. But that's why its theory crafting.

[Chaba.5410]

You aren't bad if you get pulled and die instantly. How else are you going to learn from a situation if you never experience it? Have some fun and challenge yourself sometime by diving into zergs on purpose and seeing how long you can survive. It's death in a video game...

[Quirin.1076]

Saw the best failed pull the other day at Hills.  Thief ran to cliff jumped off cliff to pull someone, but Hills flipped and they fell to their death.   

Brought a tear to my eye to watch them fall like that, but they stuck the landing and got a free respawn at waypoint.

[Hesione.9412]

I have been pulled back outside a keep (my team's) via the entrance. That was quite a while ago, so I don't know if it still works.

[babana.7521]

when I only just started pulling enemy with my necro, i don't pull them, i get reverse pull  all the time. 

[Jitters.9401]

18 hours ago, babana.7521 said:

Do you know how many practices needed to make a pull like that, jumping off, pull while gliding and have to wait until the enemy is standing at the wrong place. 

Are you really trying to defend "Exploitation" by saying it takes time to learn to do it properly? 

So exploiting is ok as long as there is a difficult learning curve. Gotcha. 

And the "standing at the wrong place " means anywhere in range.  1200 range pull means anywhere in 1200 range. 

[MedievalThings.5417]

27 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Are you really trying to defend "Exploitation" by saying it takes time to learn to do it properly? 

So exploiting is ok as long as there is a difficult learning curve. Gotcha. 

And the "standing at the wrong place " means anywhere in range.  1200 range pull means anywhere in 1200 range. 

I kill people like this all the time, and fail twice as much.  You can't, within the game rules, pull while gliding, and not every pull works while jumping.  Necro pull does, which is soo much fun.  Get some swiftness, run and press pull right as you press jump to go over a cliff, you will obviously be airborne when the pull connects to your enemy, bringing them almost all the way to you for a nice hug, and a long fall with a sudden stop.  The 1200 range is from where it was cast, not where I am once it connects, just for a reference.  What is really fun, without naming a couple servers, is how many times I have pulled enemies off cliffs, and had them glide safely to the ground in territory we own.  Hint...it's over 100.  

Edited August 2, 2023 by MedievalThings.5417

[Chaba.5410]

31 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Are you really trying to defend "Exploitation" by saying it takes time to learn to do it properly? 

So exploiting is ok as long as there is a difficult learning curve. Gotcha. 

And the "standing at the wrong place " means anywhere in range.  1200 range pull means anywhere in 1200 range. 

Exploits are usually some bug that allows a knowledgeable player to circumvent intended gameplay, like being able to use certain class weapon skills to enter a tower or keep.

Being able to jump off a cliff after activating a skill doesn't seem like a bug. Reminds me of ele lightning flash after casting meteor shower or thief shadowstep stomping.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Are you really trying to defend "Exploitation" by saying it takes time to learn to do it properly? 

So exploiting is ok as long as there is a difficult learning curve. Gotcha. 

And the "standing at the wrong place " means anywhere in range.  1200 range pull means anywhere in 1200 range. 

I am not sure I follow, so Babana indicated that after trying for pulls they encountered that there are counters. Which has been stated many times above. So then you pull they are trying to exploit it, while in fact they are testing the idea raised and saying it is not a matter of a I win card but in fact may land the player using it in a bad position in a fight if reflects are applied. So, would like you like to remake that point since it did not come out as you might have expected, or at least from this peanut gallery member?   

[Jitters.9401]

4 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I am not sure I follow

😆 🤣 😂 

The one wholly true thing you will say/write today 

Sure. Let us pretend. Everyone has reflects available at all times just in case someone is going to exploit pull. 

Hills Keep. West Cata Wall. The area people fight on (outside the wall) is fairly narrow. Two groups going at it. By your thought pattern, every member of the attacking force will be watching explicitly for an enemy to run to the cliff to do a jump pull, and have a finger hovering over a reflect skill.

Or the moment a defender who may have a pull ability runs to the cliff edge all the attackers scatter to over 1200 range from that person? 

You argument is both funny and holds no water.

 

[Chaba.5410]

39 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

😆 🤣 😂 

The one wholly true thing you will say/write today 

Sure. Let us pretend. Everyone has reflects available at all times just in case someone is going to exploit pull. 

Hills Keep. West Cata Wall. The area people fight on (outside the wall) is fairly narrow. Two groups going at it. By your thought pattern, every member of the attacking force will be watching explicitly for an enemy to run to the cliff to do a jump pull, and have a finger hovering over a reflect skill.

Or the moment a defender who may have a pull ability runs to the cliff edge all the attackers scatter to over 1200 range from that person? 

You argument is both funny and holds no water.

 

So are you saying that pulls are ok as long as someone doesn't jump off the cliff, that jumping off the cliff is the exploit? Or that someone has to be at the base of a cliff to do a pull like they do for walls?

Still not understanding why this is an exploit. Getting pulled into a wall seems unintended and an exploit caused by collision bugs. Getting pulled off a cliff does not.

Why bother calling it an exploit if you can't explain why?

Edited August 2, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Kate.3679]

1 hour ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Hills Keep. West Cata Wall. The area people fight on (outside the wall) is fairly narrow. Two groups going at it. By your thought pattern, every member of the attacking force will be watching explicitly for an enemy to run to the cliff to do a jump pull, and have a finger hovering over a reflect skill.

Or the moment a defender who may have a pull ability runs to the cliff edge all the attackers scatter to over 1200 range from that person? 

Yes to your first question, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a reflect skill. You can dodge/block/stability the pull. If you have fast enough reaction time you can stunbreak mid pull too.

No to your second question. Just cc or kill the guy who's gliding or running the the cliff. The only exception is if they're in stealth in which case yes, you should die.

[Chaba.5410]

13 minutes ago, Lilas.3648 said:

Just cc or kill the guy who's gliding or running the the cliff.

Nothing more satisfying than watching a glider fall to their death from going into downstate mid-air by some ranger pew-pew.  Bonus if there's condis.  Gliders can't use skills while gliding to cleanse them.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Jitters.9401 said:

😆 🤣 😂 

The one wholly true thing you will say/write today 

Sure. Let us pretend. Everyone has reflects available at all times just in case someone is going to exploit pull. 

Hills Keep. West Cata Wall. The area people fight on (outside the wall) is fairly narrow. Two groups going at it. By your thought pattern, every member of the attacking force will be watching explicitly for an enemy to run to the cliff to do a jump pull, and have a finger hovering over a reflect skill.

Or the moment a defender who may have a pull ability runs to the cliff edge all the attackers scatter to over 1200 range from that person? 

You argument is both funny and holds no water.

 

Maybe you should learn to use exploit less yes? Half of your statements above imply all pulls are exploits, so do you see pulls on flat ground as exploits? Second, even pulls which also are used on ledges in the attempt to pull players from them are still not exploits. I guess this seems to be an issue as I tell my havoc is watch your positioning. I guess you need more practice in EoTM. So do you also classify all knockbacks as exploits as well? How many times do you find yourself being kicked off a ledge? That's my issue with most of ABL, it makes people not use terrain and make them not pay attention when they are playing on differing terrain and more strategic play may impact an encounter or fight. Do you see dodging as an exploit next? Without pulling the exploit card would have left most of this alone, but have to agree again with some of the above, the best way to counter a tactic is try and understand how it works since its a ability in game and a mechanic. If you still see it as an exploit, send in bug reports or head to class forums and request skill changes. Till then you are not making a good case here so far. 

[MedievalThings.5417]

2 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

😆 🤣 😂 

The one wholly true thing you will say/write today 

Sure. Let us pretend. Everyone has reflects available at all times just in case someone is going to exploit pull. 

Hills Keep. West Cata Wall. The area people fight on (outside the wall) is fairly narrow. Two groups going at it. By your thought pattern, every member of the attacking force will be watching explicitly for an enemy to run to the cliff to do a jump pull, and have a finger hovering over a reflect skill.

Or the moment a defender who may have a pull ability runs to the cliff edge all the attackers scatter to over 1200 range from that person? 

You argument is both funny and holds no water.

 

You do know that Hills has gates too right?  Your argument is no different than saying "random X class shouldn't be able to attack me because Y".  So, berserkers can't use rifles cause they are ranged attacks, I already used my dodges, so it's not fair they keep shooting me for 15k unblockable.  And, I can't know when that is gonna happen, so it should not be allowed.  I don't know when a ranger is gonna pew pew with rapidfire, I don't always have reflects available at all times just in case someone is gonna "exploit" (use utilities or class skills) to kill me.  Anet spends soo much time catering to attackers: boon-sharing, downstate, shield gens, nerfing keep supply, nerfing defensive siege.  Anet hates defending, we already know this.  This is now players asking Anet to stop people from outplaying attackers.  Using a pull is NOT an exploit.  Hitting a pull a fraction of a second before jumping/running/shadowstepping/moving is NOT an exploit.  Pressing rapidfire is NOT as exploit.  Now that this is settled, can we close this thread?

Edited August 2, 2023 by MedievalThings.5417

[Chaba.5410]

23 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So do you also classify all knockbacks as exploits as well? How many times do you find yourself being kicked off a ledge?

Ah, I thought about going there too.  If someone jumps down from the wall, uses their knockback or launch off hills cliff, and then escapes by gliding over the edge, is that an exploit?  Who is watching for the guy that jumps off the wall or stealths and then jumps off the wall?

That location holds a lot of nostalgia from the core days with a knockback engineer or the old warrior Rampage skill. xD

Edited August 2, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[ArchonWing.9480]

6 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

😆 🤣 😂 

The one wholly true thing you will say/write today 

Sure. Let us pretend. Everyone has reflects available at all times just in case someone is going to exploit pull. 

Hills Keep. West Cata Wall. The area people fight on (outside the wall) is fairly narrow. Two groups going at it. By your thought pattern, every member of the attacking force will be watching explicitly for an enemy to run to the cliff to do a jump pull, and have a finger hovering over a reflect skill.

Or the moment a defender who may have a pull ability runs to the cliff edge all the attackers scatter to over 1200 range from that person? 

You argument is both funny and holds no water.

 

For that wall I just hang around the area with a ramp below near the southwest . It only works if people follow the glider north  towards the middle of the cliff. Hugging the wall also works.

The only time you should be getting pulled off is if you're attacking the northernmost wall and that's almost never a good idea. If you folks are that afraid of it, build a ballista and shoot them out of the air.

If people still can't handle that, then afk on their mount, like most normal people.

Edited August 2, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[babana.7521]

19 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Are you really trying to defend "Exploitation" by saying it takes time to learn to do it properly? 

So exploiting is ok as long as there is a difficult learning curve. Gotcha. 

And the "standing at the wrong place " means anywhere in range.  1200 range pull means anywhere in 1200 range. 

First of all, this post say "Do something about pulls" 
It didn't say do something about hackers with impossible pulls. 
If you have problem with hackers , take a video, and submit it to ArenaNet Support. 

 

need to learn to be alert of your surrounding, learn the sound of skills and what they look like , if you see mesmer, necro or engineer coming close to you and you are still standing on the cliffs.... 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by babana.7521

[Jitters.9401]

14 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Why bother calling it an exploit if you can't explain why?

It wasn't made to be used that way. 

I get pulled into zergs all the time. Most tines I am able to pop distortion and teleport away. Sometimes not so much.

But pulls were made for that. 

[Jitters.9401]

14 hours ago, Lilas.3648 said:

Yes to your first question, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a reflect skill. You can dodge/block/stability the pull. If you have fast enough reaction time you can stunbreak mid pull too.

No to your second question. Just cc or kill the guy who's gliding or running the the cliff. The only exception is if they're in stealth in which case yes, you should die.

Ummmm hahahaha

I find it funny how people try to justify exploiting.  

Like I wrote above.

 

It wasn't made to be used that way. 

I get pulled into zergs all the time. Most tines I am able to pop distortion and teleport away. Sometimes not so much.

But pulls were made for that.