Can we get new off-hand instead of Axe main Hand?

[draxynnic.3719]

Hypothetically speaking, a channelled weapon skill on Thief could be set up to consume initiative per second, so you can decide how long to keep it going at a cost.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

On 7/11/2023 at 11:50 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I do have a theory regarding why it's axe, actually:

Specter is currently a little too dependent on scepter - not just for supporting an ally, but because DPS specter is often dependent on Torment for damage and/or shadow force generation. Other thief weapons just don't even come close to scepter for torment generation. This tends to lock specter into a stale configuration of either having Sc/D and /P, or running Sc/ and /X for Quick Pockets - a playstyle that also doesn't really feel all that thiefy.

Adding another mainhand that dishes out a fair amount of Torment, ideally in melee with cleaving, would give specter a viable alternative to scepter, either as part of a second set or possibly even replacing it entirely. While still bringing a new option for condi thieves of other builds.

A third offhand would certainly be nice to have, and before I considered the line of thinking above I was firmly in Team "Give us an offhand you cowards!" If this does turn out to be the purpose of MH axe, though, then I think we have a situation where the mainhand weapon is a solution to an observed problem. Meanwhile, a new offhand would only be a nice to have - we want it to have more options, but I'm not sure that there is a clear issue that requires a new offhand apart from thief not having enough offhand choices.

I don't want a weapon who's only purpose is to be designed to make an underused spec more viable. If this is actually the reason, they can take it back to the drawing board and try again 

[Mara.6782]

I'm okay with main hand axe but can you give offhand axe too? Why guardian and ranger can have two weapons and others only one main one? 

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

I don't want a weapon who's only purpose is to be designed to make an underused spec more viable. If this is actually the reason, they can take it back to the drawing board and try again 

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. Not every addition ArenaNet makes is for you specifically.

A new melee condi mainhand will benefit other specialisations too even if it's specter that feels it the most. Dagger is really more of a hybrid (skill 2 is power, ambush is power, dual skill with pistol is power), so it would benefit melee condition daredevil and deadeye too.

[Matty.6751]

We all want off-hand sword, but I feel like it will be hard to distinguish them from the Guardian Willbender. What sucks too is that they are getting dual pistol next as their next weapon(s). Starting to feel like I should just make a Guardian smh. 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:06 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. Not every addition ArenaNet makes is for you specifically.

A new melee condi mainhand will benefit other specialisations too even if it's specter that feels it the most. Dagger is really more of a hybrid (skill 2 is power, ambush is power, dual skill with pistol is power), so it would benefit melee condition daredevil and deadeye too.

The problem is you're literally making a weapon for one use case. It has nothing to do with if I like it or not. Why in the blue hell are you designing a weapon that isn't supposed to be attached to a class, work extremely well for only a single elite spec because it had viability issues? It fixes absolutely nothing, and is just a bandaid. That is the definition of a bad design

Edited August 22, 2023 by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:50 AM, Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

The problem is you're literally making a weapon for one use case. It has nothing to do with if I like it or not. Why in the blue hell are you designing a weapon that isn't supposed to be attached to a class, work extremely well for only a single elite spec because it had viability issues? It fixes absolutely nothing, and is just a bandaid. That is the definition of a bad design

It has more than one use case - condi deadeye could also use a melee weapon with a condition-oriented ambush. Daredevil relies less on ambush skills so the 'just use d/d' argument does apply reasonably well to them, but even a daredevil might appreciate a melee condi ambush skill if they are packing some stealth to use it with (axe/dagger for CnD, perhaps?).

Specter feels the lack the most, but every variant of condi thief could benefit from having a melee condition ambush skill available.

[Artyport.2084]

Id like a support focus- that makes the class feel like a dancer or bard. 
 

currently scepter doesn’t have a ranged off hand weapon that has either condi or help with support.

 

Dagger 5 being melee feels weird 

scepter pistol works but doesn’t really sell theme of a shadow assassin 

Im also down with offhand sword 

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Artyport.2084 said:

Id like a support focus- that makes the class feel like a dancer or bard. 
 

currently scepter doesn’t have a ranged off hand weapon that has either condi or help with support.

 

Dagger 5 being melee feels weird 

scepter pistol works but doesn’t really sell theme of a shadow assassin 

Im also down with offhand sword 

Technically speaking, Dancing Dagger can be used for ranged multitarget torment application, you're just generally better off spamming Twilight Combo on your primary target.

Which is kinda the way thief offhands work. They're not explicitly "range" or "melee" - the skills linked to the offhand directly are fairly utility-oriented, while the big effect they have is modifying the mainhand weapon through the dual skill. Either offhand is a ranged offhand when combined with a ranged mainhand, or a melee offhand when combined with a melee mainhand, because most of the time your primary damage option is spamming the dual skill unless your running power dagger (or, naturally, a 2H weapon).

A support-oriented focus would definitely be nice to see, but for reasons already discussed, I'm personally more excited for what axe mainhand might do if done right than any offhand. Afterwards, though, that gap will (hopefully) have already been filled so they should definitely look at a new offhand of some form. 

[Artyport.2084]

We will have 5 main hands and 2 off hands . 
no matter how you cut it we didn’t need another main. 
 

Axe should be something for the future but having it now was an absolutely silly choice 

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Artyport.2084 said:

We will have 5 main hands and 2 off hands . 
no matter how you cut it we didn’t need another main. 
 

Axe should be something for the future but having it now was an absolutely silly choice 

Spectres could do with a second mainhand weapon that works with spectre traits so they aren't running sceptre/dagger + sceptre/pistol most of the time.

Condition deadeyes could do with a melee condition weapon that actually has a condition-based ambush skill (sword and staff are CC, dagger is power). It's not as critical for daredevil since daredevil isn't as reliant on ambush skills, but condition daredevils would probably appreciate having a melee condition weapon rather than the hybrid that dagger is.

There's a pretty big hole in the thief weapons lineup labelled "condition melee weapon" that axe could fill, and filling major capability gaps trumps "we already have this number of X and a smaller number of Y" arguments in my book.

I get where you're coming from, I had the same initial response, and then I thought about what axe could be doing in the context of issues seen by certain thief builds, and it made a lot more sense. 

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Spectres could do with a second mainhand weapon that works with spectre traits so they aren't running sceptre/dagger + sceptre/pistol most of the time.

Condition deadeyes could do with a melee condition weapon that actually has a condition-based ambush skill (sword and staff are CC, dagger is power). It's not as critical for daredevil since daredevil isn't as reliant on ambush skills, but condition daredevils would probably appreciate having a melee condition weapon rather than the hybrid that dagger is.

There's a pretty big hole in the thief weapons lineup labelled "condition melee weapon" that axe could fill, and filling major capability gaps trumps "we already have this number of X and a smaller number of Y" arguments in my book.

I get where you're coming from, I had the same initial response, and then I thought about what axe could be doing in the context of issues seen by certain thief builds, and it made a lot more sense. 

Assuming that axe will not be the condition weapon you hope for, would you have preferred a new offhand instead?

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think thief should get a torch. 

[Meridian.9103]

I don't really care what axe could or couldn't bring to the thief weapon lineup as mh. I'm just sick of being stuck with the same 4 oh skills for over 11 years now.

Ideally thief would get both new mh and oh weapon, as some other classes do, if anet really thinks thiefs gaps can't be closed with just an oh weapon alone. But as it stands right now, mh axe could be the most exciting weapon in the game, and it would still be only half interesting to me, because i have to pair it with dagger or pistol again.

And further this also means that builds using the existing mh weapons play out the same since said 11 years. Anet misses another opportunity to give those weapons a breath of fresh air as well, which they really need.

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Assuming that axe will not be the condition weapon you hope for, would you have preferred a new offhand instead?

If we're talking about hypotheticals where they kitten things up, there's no guarantee that a new offhand would actually be good either. The perfect weapon you imagine will always be better than the disappointment you actually received. If that scenario does occur, what I'd be saying is that they should have made it a condi weapon rather than power melee weapon #4, not that they should have made an offhand instead.

[nobleboivin.4102]

As much as the idea of main hand axe is growing on me, I'd love to also see an off hand axe just cause the whole idea of an axe attached to chains

[Shade.8971]

Should've been axe/axe. God forbid anet has to think up a few new dual attacks.  Looks over at weaver

Edited September 16, 2023 by Shade.8971

[Doggie.3184]

I think it's really neglectful to give others dual weapons over us. Should be Dual Axe.

I'd literally take any Offhand weapon at this point though, as long as it doesn't have annoying movement skills we're expected to spam like Measured Shot, Shadow Strike, Death Blossom, Weakening Charge and Escape (Speargun's only Condi DPS ini move).... Either go without movement spam on our main DPS skill and let us WASD, or at least stick to things like Heartseeker, Flanking Dive (not sure why Sword 'Flanking Strike' doesn't have Dive's mechanics), Vault, and Infiltrator Strike if yer gonna add any momement attacks. I'd love a new weaponset that doesn't make me fly all over the place or movement lock me with it's main DPS ability.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Eekasqueak.7850]

It feels like they regret giving thief the dual skill mechanic because they didn't even get any new dual skills until EoD and that was still only giving a main hand.

[itspomf.9523]

On 9/16/2023 at 11:20 PM, Doggie.3184 said:

Flanking Dive (not sure why Sword 'Flanking Strike' doesn't have Dive's mechanics)

Fun fact!  It actually did, back in the day, then someone who I'll call Karl decided that breaking the skill into a flip-skill was A Good Idea (it was not), which further drove sword into the ground.

On 9/16/2023 at 11:20 PM, Doggie.3184 said:

 I'd love a new weaponset that doesn't make me fly all over the place or movement lock me with it's main DPS ability.

Honestly same.  I've mained teef since headstart and it's so jarring to jump between characters and remember that, oh yeah, half my kit sends me over there for some reason.

Yes, shadowsteps and gap-closers (like Shadow Shot) are great for mobility, but why does its counterpart Shadow Strike (or its awkward cousin, Measured Shot) have to send me elsewhere?  It's honestly refreshing to play other classes and have skills that leave me precisely where I'm standing.

[Doggie.3184]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:35 PM, itspomf.9523 said:

Fun fact!  It actually did, back in the day, then someone who I'll call Karl decided that breaking the skill into a flip-skill was A Good Idea (it was not), which further drove sword into the ground.

Honestly same.  I've mained teef since headstart and it's so jarring to jump between characters and remember that, oh yeah, half my kit sends me over there for some reason.

Yes, shadowsteps and gap-closers (like Shadow Shot) are great for mobility, but why does its counterpart Shadow Strike (or its awkward cousin, Measured Shot) have to send me elsewhere?  It's honestly refreshing to play other classes and have skills that leave me precisely where I'm standing.

Yeah that sucked but I don't remember if it ever had Dive's mechanic where it only moves you to target's flank and then keeps you there, so if you're already hitting them in back you stay there instead of moving again. Flanking Strike illogically rotates you around their body regardless of your positioning and it's annoying. Really wish new devs would go back and undo bad Thief decisions of past devs.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[itspomf.9523]

18 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Yeah that sucked but I don't remember if it ever had Dive's mechanic where it only moves you to target's flank and then keeps you there, so if you're already hitting them in back you stay there instead of moving again. Flanking Strike illogically rotates you around their body regardless of your positioning and it's annoying. Really wish new devs would go back and undo bad Thief decisions of past devs.

Ugh, yeah.  As much as I loved it for the free dodge (back when sword was good), dancing around the target just ... isn't great.  Zip me behind them as a great setup for tactical strike?  Heck yeah.  Fling me to their front because oopsy doopsy, I needed some boon-strip?  No thanks, that's what I'm trying to avoid.

And yeah, a major thief update is ... *checks wiki* ... 7 years overdue.  Most stuff hasn't been touched since 2016, if not earlier.

[Matoro.9708]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:12 AM, Matty.6751 said:

I feel like I can't be the only person who wants a new off-hand for thief.

 

Couple ideas..

Torch: For Tombraider vibes, also a fire combo field is fun when paired with Pistol and, Rifle or Short Bow on weapon swap. 

Focus: As a defensive option. Dagger main-hand and this on off-hand plays well for more of a Trickster archetype. 

Axe (off-hand): I'd be ok with this, at least now I have more options other than pistol or dagger.

 

The only issue I can think of for the Devs is that they would have to add more Dual-wield skills (extra ones for Sword and Scepter). So an additional 2 skills I believe. 

If you could pick, what off-hand would you like for thief?

Torch and focus are both great options and torch specifically captures a tomb raider or dungeon delver kind of vibe for a thief, like in the deepstone fractal. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

45 minutes ago, itspomf.9523 said:

Ugh, yeah.  As much as I loved it for the free dodge (back when sword was good), dancing around the target just ... isn't great.  Zip me behind them as a great setup for tactical strike?  Heck yeah.  Fling me to their front because oopsy doopsy, I needed some boon-strip?  No thanks, that's what I'm trying to avoid.

And yeah, a major thief update is ... *checks wiki* ... 7 years overdue.  Most stuff hasn't been touched since 2016, if not earlier.

tactical strike needs to swap positions with the boon rip attack xD - if you rip a boon, you blind target, tactical strike is dependant on where you hit, back or side

[Puck.3697]

On 7/9/2023 at 7:12 PM, Matty.6751 said:

I feel like I can't be the only person who wants a new off-hand for thief

How about both. 

Several other classes are getting main hand and offhand. And thief needs both.