Objective Aura + Keep buff = 25k+ hitpoints every push

[Riba.3271]

Math

Defensive stats (Vitality + Tougness):

+200 vitality = 2000 health

+200 tougness (better that than vitality in power meta) = 2000+ health

First downstate = 75% of doubled Max hp => 1.5 * (2000 + 2000+) = 6000+ health

total: 10 0000++ health

Offensive stats (Power + Precision):

Better stats than vitality and toughness

total:

10 000+++ health

Misc (+25% movement speed):

Cripple + no swift =  50% Movement speed

Cripple + no swift + Objective aura = 75% movement speed (50% more)

Chill + no swift = 34% Movement speed

Chill + no swift + Objective aura = 59% Movement speed (74% more)

Easily avoid couple of abilities extra

total:

4 000+ Health

Total Sum

25 000+ Hitpoints for every push

 

Keep balance is absolutely ridiculous. You win every push against similarly skilled group. Devs, maybe wake up and bring back objective fights?

[Riba.3271]

I just checked my backpocket, and no, there wasn't 25k extra damage in there

[Dawdler.8521]

According to my math thieves do 1,000,000++++ dps so it balances out.

[aspirine.6852]

Dude do you ever stop whining about keep buffs. 

[Deniara Devious.3948]

IMHO they should keep these buffs at least in some form, but I would get rid of the borderland bloodlust system completely. They both add to server side calculations and add to the lag. I would also tone down the excessive amount of boons as all these boons are of course need to be computed in the server side as well. We have boon ball meta for so many years, as I remember.

Defenders need some sort of bonuses, especially when a lot of the matchups are so lopsided: both linked servers ganging up on the single EU server, which has no link. 2 + 2 vs 1. Even with 2 vs 2 vs 2 linking situation there are time zones where some servers have very few defenders available.

Shield generators + golems + entire zerg vs just few defenders = even t3 objectives are be easy to flip and nightmare to defend. If you take away the objective auras, the defenders have really low chances to get those weekly defenders (tower defender is still too difficult... I often don't get it, even though I kill enemies).

A lot of defensive siege is annoyingly close to useless. Arrow carts do pitiful damage. Desert borderland (which should be fully removed from the rotation) has so badly designed keeps that the cannons are often close to useless and are way too big, making defense harder. 

At least with the objective aura the defenders have some chances to down some enemies with a push.

Defenders should have an advantage, but the question is how much is too much?

Ayna from Desolation

PS. Sorry to siderail this discussion, but I feel all these issues should be looked as a whole, as everything affects everything.
 

[Dawdler.8521]

3 minutes ago, Deniara Devious.3948 said:

They both add to server side calculations and add to the lag. 

 Crunching that value would probably be like 0.0000000000001% the time to figure out whether you are in range of an enemy that just did a /laugh.

[MedievalThings.5417]

Anet has nerfed everything in favor of attackers.  Wall health, siege, supply.  They even added shield gens so that attackers can avoid defensive siege.  Then they nerfed the only good tactic an outnumbered server had, which is now siege dampener.  For those who don't already know, it's completely useless as it adds maybe 5 whole seconds of defense.  All these giant blobs rolling around unhappy that it takes ANY effort to take something is kind of sad.  You can take a T3 tower in 25 seconds from siege drop to lord dead (maybe 30 if a dampener is used).  A T3 keep can be taken (depending on which keep) in as little as 50 seconds.

And, your suggestion is that defenders have it too easy?  You want keep buffs removed...fine.  As long as Anet removes bloodlust, downstate and target caps at the same time.  Standing next to 49 other people should not be an "I win" button like it is now.  But sure, let's blame failed keep takes on the keep buff.

[Zyreva.1078]

Just use swiftness for extra 5k+ hp, Fury for additional 20k hp, Might for like 50k hp, Prot for 10k hp, Stab for 100k, same with Resistance and then some more hp for all the other juicy boons. At 500k+ hp 25k disparity won't make that much of a difference anymore.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[kash.9213]

As dismissive as people are, the structure buffs do largely keep fights on certain lanes and they often end up in a rut of back and forth. It's kind of dumb to have them and at that scale for how small the maps are, and then for how much smaller the population makes each map out of habit or necessity. Structure buffs aren't helping people defend if they get no response from any of the maps.

Edited July 12, 2023 by kash.9213

[XenesisII.1540]

Buffs mean nothing if the numbers are not there to use it. Also when it's all three sides present, the defenders are then at a huge numbers disadvantage.

Boon balls can take t3 keeps, they can camp out in lords farming plebs, take away the buffs and you just make it easy for attackers to k-train everything on the map, which they already do.

If you want defenders to fight you have to give them something to defend, that means upgraded objectives and bonuses, or guaranteed meaningful rewards. If those are not present then there's no point to defend, fights won't happen in structures anymore, everyone will just merri-go-round taking stuff for their capture rewards instead. if you are going to get rid of the stats then you need to replace it with something else that will make defenders want to defend that piece of land, cause "ppt" sure as kitten doesn't cut it.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Buffs mean nothing if the numbers are not there to use it. Also when it's all three sides present, the defenders are then at a huge numbers disadvantage.

Boon balls can take t3 keeps, they can camp out in lords farming plebs, take away the buffs and you just make it easy for attackers to k-train everything on the map, which they already do.

If you want defenders to fight you have to give them something to defend, that means upgraded objectives and bonuses, or guaranteed meaningful rewards. If those are not present then there's no point to defend, fights won't happen in structures anymore, everyone will just merri-go-round taking stuff for their capture rewards instead. if you are going to get rid of the stats then you need to replace it with something else that will make defenders want to defend that piece of land, cause "ppt" sure as kitten doesn't cut it.

I feel like giving maps a reason to respond and not making walls farm spots for attackers would get people to defend more. Those structure buffs aren't keeping people around unless they're already the type to try to solo a zerg when a circle is up. I get your point and not saying you're wrong, but I don't think those buffs are enough of a factor in defense to warrant the map footprint they have. It's kind of telling how problematic sieging and defending is that most of the benefit of those buffs occurs outside of the structure in open field fighting where walls are hot death and inside siege is normally at a reach and visual disadvantage. 

I'd take an even larger stat buff only on top of walls though.

Edited July 12, 2023 by kash.9213

[TheGrimm.5624]

15 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Math

Defensive stats (Vitality + Tougness):

+200 vitality = 2000 health

+200 tougness (better that than vitality in power meta) = 2000+ health

First downstate = 75% of doubled Max hp => 1.5 * (2000 + 2000+) = 6000+ health

total: 10 0000++ health

Offensive stats (Power + Precision):

Better stats than vitality and toughness

total:

10 000+++ health

Misc (+25% movement speed):

Cripple + no swift =  50% Movement speed

Cripple + no swift + Objective aura = 75% movement speed (50% more)

Chill + no swift = 34% Movement speed

Chill + no swift + Objective aura = 59% Movement speed (74% more)

Easily avoid couple of abilities extra

total:

4 000+ Health

Total Sum

25 000+ Hitpoints for every push

 

Keep balance is absolutely ridiculous. You win every push against similarly skilled group. Devs, maybe wake up and bring back objective fights?

Maybe instead Auto-Turrets should be removed and reworked so there is less of a question of what is BiS for the tier 3 improvements for keeps. What that would look like is more off topic so won't float any ideas there at this time but that could be an interesting separate theory thread. I won't go any further there since we have hashed this one around enough that I won't distract from your point from there.  I admit as a scout and a scribe if I scout and find objectives don't have tactics and improvements I will add them. I do see PotK as Bis but not just for the stat boosts but the supply and speed as well. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 hours ago, Deniara Devious.3948 said:

IMHO they should keep these buffs at least in some form, but I would get rid of the borderland bloodlust system completely. They both add to server side calculations and add to the lag. I would also tone down the excessive amount of boons as all these boons are of course need to be computed in the server side as well. We have boon ball meta for so many years, as I remember.

Defenders need some sort of bonuses, especially when a lot of the matchups are so lopsided: both linked servers ganging up on the single EU server, which has no link. 2 + 2 vs 1. Even with 2 vs 2 vs 2 linking situation there are time zones where some servers have very few defenders available.

Shield generators + golems + entire zerg vs just few defenders = even t3 objectives are be easy to flip and nightmare to defend. If you take away the objective auras, the defenders have really low chances to get those weekly defenders (tower defender is still too difficult... I often don't get it, even though I kill enemies).

A lot of defensive siege is annoyingly close to useless. Arrow carts do pitiful damage. Desert borderland (which should be fully removed from the rotation) has so badly designed keeps that the cannons are often close to useless and are way too big, making defense harder. 

At least with the objective aura the defenders have some chances to down some enemies with a push.

Defenders should have an advantage, but the question is how much is too much?

Ayna from Desolation

PS. Sorry to siderail this discussion, but I feel all these issues should be looked as a whole, as everything affects everything.
 

🙂 A lot of this would also be interesting topics but agree would be off topic so won't derail. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, Ubi.4136 said:

Anet has nerfed everything in favor of attackers.  Wall health, siege, supply.  They even added shield gens so that attackers can avoid defensive siege.  Then they nerfed the only good tactic an outnumbered server had, which is now siege dampener.  For those who don't already know, it's completely useless as it adds maybe 5 whole seconds of defense.  All these giant blobs rolling around unhappy that it takes ANY effort to take something is kind of sad.  You can take a T3 tower in 25 seconds from siege drop to lord dead (maybe 30 if a dampener is used).  A T3 keep can be taken (depending on which keep) in as little as 50 seconds.

And, your suggestion is that defenders have it too easy?  You want keep buffs removed...fine.  As long as Anet removes bloodlust, downstate and target caps at the same time.  Standing next to 49 other people should not be an "I win" button like it is now.  But sure, let's blame failed keep takes on the keep buff.

Shield gens still feel like they were out of the blue. Still not a fan as an attacker or defender. Its more like they were the answer to the question of 'Why is there no counter play to a player that is in SMC macro trebbing?' well we will give you a way to macro a defensive ability that blocks that shot so they will cancel each other out and you can both not be fighting. Wouldn't mind seeing Shield Gens reworked. I don't say removed because we never want to lose tools we have. Again, what that would look like is off topic.

Coming at it from both an attacker and defender, aura buffs and objective improvements really don't factor into thoughts of do or do not. I think more people just look at the tier of the objective for the most part and make assumptions there. That said stat boosts do impact numbers, you do want a guild claim that has aura 8, yes, PotK is BiS over auto-turrets, yes, do want bloodlust, yes. But considering the number of attackers, especially those that bring boons will more than overpower these buffs and considering we have double wall pentetration spots on so many keeps, I still don't think it should be a stand alone change else it would just nerf defense more. I would be curious to see statistics on the number of attacks versus defenses for keeps. If they had heat map information that would also be interesting but not sure they are recording those details anywhere. 

Before making any changes to Auras or PotK or even bloodlust, think it would be better for them to release the attack events and fix or enhance the defense event as we see how that impacts fights at the keeps. And again other changes might also improve or change habits. Example, more improvement options that may challenge PotK as BiS, maybe something to bloodlust that creates even more fights over them, maybe more links to bloodlust and outnumbered or outnumbered encouraging more defenses. Lots of potential out there.

[Riba.3271]

11 hours ago, aspirine.6852 said:

Dude do you ever stop whining about keep buffs. 

Well to me objective auras are just fun killer. It is akin to random tengu spawning in middle of fair 1 vs 1 to one shot one player. Why is it in the game? It is such a ridiculous idea that isn't fun for anyone.

Also whining is relative, maybe I am just trying to drive necessary change. Maybe what you're doing is whining about someone driving necessary change?

Edited July 12, 2023 by Riba.3271

[kash.9213]

57 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Shield gens still feel like they were out of the blue. Still not a fan as an attacker or defender. Its more like they were the answer to the question of 'Why is there no counter play to a player that is in SMC macro trebbing?' well we will give you a way to macro a defensive ability that blocks that shot so they will cancel each other out and you can both not be fighting. Wouldn't mind seeing Shield Gens reworked. I don't say removed because we never want to lose tools we have. Again, what that would look like is off topic.

Coming at it from both an attacker and defender, aura buffs and objective improvements really don't factor into thoughts of do or do not. I think more people just look at the tier of the objective for the most part and make assumptions there. That said stat boosts do impact numbers, you do want a guild claim that has aura 8, yes, PotK is BiS over auto-turrets, yes, do want bloodlust, yes. But considering the number of attackers, especially those that bring boons will more than overpower these buffs and considering we have double wall pentetration spots on so many keeps, I still don't think it should be a stand alone change else it would just nerf defense more. I would be curious to see statistics on the number of attacks versus defenses for keeps. If they had heat map information that would also be interesting but not sure they are recording those details anywhere. 

Before making any changes to Auras or PotK or even bloodlust, think it would be better for them to release the attack events and fix or enhance the defense event as we see how that impacts fights at the keeps. And again other changes might also improve or change habits. Example, more improvement options that may challenge PotK as BiS, maybe something to bloodlust that creates even more fights over them, maybe more links to bloodlust and outnumbered or outnumbered encouraging more defenses. Lots of potential out there.

We can see where back and forth fights happen though, and it's almost always on or around those lines. It factors even if people think they don't notice, but they do notice, because people generally move and position to take advantage of that or to scramble out of the disadvantage. Attackers will overpower those buffs if they already overpower regardless. If the attackers punch through a wall on a sieged up structure, then there was no legit response and whoever was defending inside has to decide if they want to die when the circle is up or dip out of the front gate and run away. Most of the decisive fighting is going to happen in open field out by the territory line and it's probably going to be the map response noticing that there's enough people rolling in for a drive to probably sweep the attackers.

I still think we can pump up the stats or better, another defensive measure on top of walls. I know as a defender who is outnumbered, that's the only reasonable place to get a good sight with siege or, once the wall is down, to funnel the attack and force multiply but currently that's still just a last-minute decision to yolo or bounce regardless of stats because if the attackers punched through the wall and fought up to that point, it's theirs if there's no map response that can come in from open field behind the attackers, because most people know not to run in through the gate to get melted and that someone might accidently close that wall up making it a trap for the defenders. Again, the structure buffs being advantageous to the area outside and away from the structure more than anything else. 

I'll point out that the extra stats on such wide foot prints on the map are dumb. I'm not asking to take them out yet though until we get something legit because they probably do make some difference in obscure hours and some people can only log in during those times.

Good points in your middle paragraph. Wish we had a good test server to try different variations of map and team features.

Edited July 12, 2023 by kash.9213

[oatsnjuices.1698]

I have always wished presence was inside of the structure.

[MedievalThings.5417]

2 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Well to me objective auras are just fun killer. It is akin to random tengu spawning in middle of fair 1 vs 1 to one shot one player. Why is it in the game? It is such a ridiculous idea that isn't fun for anyone.

Also whining is relative, maybe I am just trying to drive necessary change. Maybe what you're doing is whining about someone driving necessary change?

You spelled it wrong.  It's spelled "downstate" and you're right, it shouldn't be in a competitive game mode.

[XenesisII.1540]

12 minutes ago, Ubi.4136 said:

You spelled it wrong.  It's spelled "downstate" and you're right, it shouldn't be in a competitive game mode.

Good thing wvw isn't a competitive game mode. 🤭🍦

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Oh hi all,
Looks like it's that time again when OP creates post again about how bad bloodlust and claim auras are.
Ok, bye.

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, Ubi.4136 said:

You spelled it wrong.  It's spelled "downstate" and you're right, it shouldn't be in a competitive game mode.

Nor should stealth, healing, boons, condition damage, unfair traits, unfair gearsets, unfair numbers be but here we are, with an actual game mode.

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, oatsnjuices.1698 said:

I have always wished presence was inside of the structure.

Granted shouldn't be posting at this hour but, good point, now I need check the range. My mind says they have different ranges, but since its 3:15 AM, I question if some of those brain cells took a leap of bad faith and went splat (No offense to Splat themselves, if they died I blame others that will not be named to protect the guilty) but I want to say they do have different ranges. Need to check that while in game tomorrow night and check the wiki after for curiosity and if I have to report a homicide of that cell or verify it just enjoys a jacket that hugs back. 

[XenesisII.1540]

LMAO just had a boon blob demolish a map with t2/3 upgraded towers and keeps in less than an hour, don't tell me defense is OP, cause it's not even close. All effective things against that blob have been nerfed to the ground, defending is a joke, those extra 400-800 stats mean nothing against boon and heal spam. Wvw is such a joke some days. 😏🍦

[Ferus.3165]

it's rare to read bigger BS on these forums.

You know what also sucks? That there are walls and npcs who also help the defending team.

Get rid of it all. There should just be circles on the ground that boonblobs should be able to cap freely.

Get these walls out of my face and ban every player who dares to build any siege while defending their circle.

What a lot of BS.

[Lorendyl Azoradaelas.5203]

On 7/12/2023 at 11:09 AM, Deniara Devious.3948 said:

IMHO they should keep these buffs at least in some form, but I would get rid of the borderland bloodlust system completely. They both add to server side calculations and add to the lag.

Those basic integer operations will only take ~0.000005 second at most.