Heal Scourge is not doing ok in endgame content

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

While numerically last patch brought healscourge back from oblivion, the state of heal scourge is still bad.
Here are but couple of issues that plauge healscourge and affect it's low desirability in parties:
 

• dysmal access and application of stab
• small radius of both barriers and boons.
• inconsistent behaviour of shades
• ressing severely gutted
   

This in general poses a huge problem as a lot of support's functionality is saving your allies from deathtraps (cc + red circle of death).
For traditional supports that's done with stability, party stunbreaks or in some cases condi cleanses (vs fear) or resistance boon (any sort of movement impairing condi).

But for scourge it was mostly ress pulling. Scourge could not prevent the scenario, but it could deal with consequences.
That however is now history. Ress pulling requires to keep finger off F4 skill, which is our main way to heal allies when some damage slips through cracks in our barriers.
And that's usually just not acceptable. Regen healing even if not very strong is cornerstone of keeping our party healthy. A necessary supplement to barriers.

And then there's the shade problem.
Shades have only 180 radius and that's just tragic when it comes to boon share and barrier application.
I mean wth, there are guys who have 600 radius on theirs, no questions asked (hello Heralds, Warriors, Guards).

If that wasn't enough there are some inconsistencies which can throw the Scourge for a loop even further.
Desert empowerment makes F1 apply barrier in a comfy 300 radius. Nice.
But F3 stays true to shade's own radius - just measely 180. And we both know which one is the bigger dog.

Or how about Sandstorm Shroud (supportive one modded with Herald of Sorrow)?
It's initial three minor pulses aren't performed by your shades at all! Only the last one!
And they're critical for generating alac for allies. So no only is the radius terribly small, but you can't even boost it with your shades, which are supposed to do exactly that!

Overall at the end of the day healer scourge is a very situational pick that will thrive in certrain encounters, but be very undesired in others (lot of hard cc mechanics), that struggles to reliably upkeep it's basic boons (alac, might) due to range and inconsistency issues of his shade skills.



 

Edited July 24, 2023 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Taygus.4571]

my guild leader has been playing heal scourge in raids and strikes since they added alac to it. I

It's really not as poor as you're making it out to be. And it has amazing healing, Ive been using it in Eod strikes and raid trainings and almost never need f4 for healing as well of blood is really strong!  It has access to aegis which can help with some of the mechanics you're complaining about.

Stability isn't necessary for most raids..and if it is.. Scourge does have trail of anguish  but there's no harm in asking the boon dps classes to bring stability..mix it up a little, the healer doesn't have to do everything. 

Scourge has 2 optional utilities you can change based on thr encounter,  thats more choice than some healers. 

 

I will agree the shade radius is a bit tight, and I have difficulty giving alac to players that don't stack tightly. 

keeping up might is dead easy, dessicate and torch will keep up might but in a team you'll almoat never need torch as most players bring mighy to top it off.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Taygus.4571

[DeVieEtMort.1760]

Surprisingly (if you are a dev), it seems that a lot of the issues with boon and barrier application will be fixed by subsuming desert empowerment with Sand Savant, yet here we are still.

 

Are there actually other builds out there that uses the big shade over the condi or alac grandmaster traits?

[Asum.4960]

It also really suffers from lack of ranged support. I just played it a very little, but even in that, the times I wished I had something like a Bow of Truth or Holy Strike to top off an ally struggling with a mechanic way off-stack was feeling very limiting. 

Well of Blood is pretty much the only ranged support you can drop somewhere, and that's a combination of too small of a radius, too long to heal, and too long of a CD for that purpose - culling and/or unfamiliarity with heal Necro might be an issue too, as allies seem to struggle to notice it and just walk out in their focus on their mechanic. 

That's where quick ranged burst heals, or ranged huge AoE heals are really nice, as they don't rely on the skill or knowledge of the player you are trying to support, you can just actually carry them - Scourge can't, unlike some other existing supports, it relies hugely on it's allies skill and positioning in order to be able to support them - which is a problem. 

Likewise with the Boonshare you mentioned, 180 radius is awful and relies way too much on allied stacking.

Beyond that, Sandstorm Shroud's growing yellow/orange AoE either looking like or covering up hostile ground effects is kind of baffling (it was especially fun in Silent Surf CM, where it's pretty much the exact same colour and size of the Axe mechanic "Rending Storm" attaching to players, making it almost invisible if happening at the same time). 

Just from a basic design perspective, hostile and allied ground effects never should even remotely share a visual and colour coding, least of all vital support skills.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

3 hours ago, DeVieEtMort.1760 said:

Surprisingly (if you are a dev), it seems that a lot of the issues with boon and barrier application will be fixed by subsuming desert empowerment with Sand Savant, yet here we are still.

 

Are there actually other builds out there that uses the big shade over the condi or alac grandmaster traits?

I imagine that Scourge, like Druid, can pull off a solo-healer role in a squad with 4 boondps.

I haven't been in a position to bother using it, but the option is there.

[Methuselah.4376]

I have done  T4s, including 100 (though not CM) and strikes with my Heal Alac Scourge. I enjoy the build tremendously and am surprised by how healthy and buffed I can keep my subgroup. But the lack of easily shared stability is indeed an issue; however, one wonders if this "need" for stability is born out of laziness that came from the presence of builds such as Firebrand and Mechanists. Yet I do agree that we need something that shares stability better; maybe add it to Well of Power or increase the radius of Trail of Anguish. Also, as others pointed out, with HAS the group needs to stack otherwise a lot of people will miss out on the goodies. I do find Serpent Siphon great and it's nice to have a block when needed. 

I almost never activate my F4 for healing, because between the barriers, Water sigil, Well of Blood, and the healing from Life from Undeath, my group is almost always at full health. 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

3 hours ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

I have done  T4s, including 100 (though not CM) and strikes with my Heal Alac Scourge. I enjoy the build tremendously and am surprised by how healthy and buffed I can keep my subgroup. But the lack of easily shared stability is indeed an issue; however, one wonders if this "need" for stability is born out of laziness that came from the presence of builds such as Firebrand and Mechanists. Yet I do agree that we need something that shares stability better; maybe add it to Well of Power or increase the radius of Trail of Anguish. Also, as others pointed out, with HAS the group needs to stack otherwise a lot of people will miss out on the goodies. I do find Serpent Siphon great and it's nice to have a block when needed. 

I almost never activate my F4 for healing, because between the barriers, Water sigil, Well of Blood, and the healing from Life from Undeath, my group is almost always at full health. 

This has been my experience exactly. Garish Pillar can usually be saved for breakbars or emergencies because the rest of your kit does a great job at keeping health bars full.  I'm a bit more on the side of stability maybe coming from weapon support than buffing the utility skills (since the only support skills we have on weapons are Mark of Blood, which isn't necessary to maintain perma regen, Locust Swarm, which has decent healing when traited but otherwise is minimal, and Oppressive Collapse, which has the push and pull of being a good CC skill but also applying up to 14 might).

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Forum: Scourge in unplayable. 

Wingman: Look at them Scourge numbers go up! Stonks! 

 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Forum: Scourge in unplayable. 

Wingman: Look at them Scourge numbers go up! Stonks! 

 

Because most people who are on the forum are terrible at the game, and it is against forum rules to say they are terrible, so it creates safe space that their awful idea go unchallenged. Look at the uproar about about signet of sorrow, a trait that was dead on arrival, but sanctified on this board.  I love the contrast of this board and the snowcrows discord.  This board is all doomer when the people who actually know how the game works sees how great the changes are.

[Shaogin.2679]

As someone that has been playing Heal Scourge for a long time, I just want to point out some incorrect things being stated here. 

First off, boon application radius is 300, not 180. The only one that still has the 180 radius is Sand Cascade, which is not needed to maintain Alacrity, especially after the last patch. Both Sandstorm Shroud and Manifest Sand Shade apply their barriers (and by extension might, condi cleanse, and alacrity) in a 300 radius. 

Second, you can definitely provide ranged support, and very easily I might add. I know this as a fact because again, I have already done it. Most recently on Sabetha just last night I was the flak kiter on my Heal Alac Scourge.

Heal Scourge can also easily function as a solo healer. Again, just last night on a couple of runs my other healer died early on and so I had to solo Heal the fight. In fact, on Xera, the other healer was also the tank, so someone quickly dropped a cake for me to eat for the toughness mid fight and I solo heal tanked the rest of the fight.

Although our rez ability has been nerfed, it is by no means gone or unusable. If it stayed in its previous state, Heal Scourge would have been stupid OP now. I do wish it would go back to pulling down allies continuously, but Scourges still have the best rez abilities in the game.

Finally, on fights that need stability, Trail of Anguish has been plenty sufficient for this task. If need be you can take it with Serpent Siphon as well for the Aegis. Sure, having even more stability and Aegis is always nice for those groups that are struggling with mechanics and need a carry, but it would also start to overload the spec with more than it needs to function. One player does not need to be able to do absolutely everything for the team.

Oh, also, on the boon support part, just want to say I am currently able to supply about 84% of the entire squad's alacrity. So not only is my group at 100% alacrity uptime, but I am providing quite a bit of alacrity to the other group as well.

So please, just stop it already with these false statements about how bad Heal Alac Scourge is right now. There are of course some improvements that can be made as with all classes, but it is actually in a great spot right now.

[Szatko.8132]

On 7/26/2023 at 7:56 AM, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

I imagine that Scourge, like Druid, can pull off a solo-healer role in a squad with 4 boondps.

I haven't been in a position to bother using it, but the option is there.

Yup, but you'll lose a lot of barrier application too if you don't choose desert empowerment. Also the pulsing barrier from desert shroud will only apply to 5 people around you, even if you take sand savant, which effectively makes you a nerfed version of previous healing Scourge.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Szatko.8132

[oCynder.5136]

 

14 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Forum: Scourge in unplayable. 

Wingman: Look at them Scourge numbers go up! Stonks!

More like

Forum: I eat mechanics and never group. Scourage is unplayable

Wingman: Nice.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 7/26/2023 at 7:56 AM, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

I imagine that Scourge, like Druid, can pull off a solo-healer role in a squad with 4 boondps.

I haven't been in a position to bother using it, but the option is there.

Do you mean 3 boondps? Scourge is very capable of doing the solo healer role in raids now. Even better than druid probably since barrier on one subgroup allows it to stay at max health so the heals can reach the other sub.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Do you mean 3 boondps? Scourge is very capable of doing the solo healer role in raids now. Even better than druid probably since barrier on one subgroup allows it to stay at max health so the heals can reach the other sub.

I was thinking using Sand Savant to cover everyone with barrier, but that only works for two applications (Sand cascade and Sandstorm Shroud's final burst)  A single alacheal scourge might be enough of a healer for an entire 10 man squad.

[Shaogin.2679]

10 hours ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

I was thinking using Sand Savant to cover everyone with barrier, but that only works for two applications (Sand cascade and Sandstorm Shroud's final burst)  A single alacheal scourge might be enough of a healer for an entire 10 man squad.

I can definitely vouch and say it is. I have wound up in this situation out of necessity a few times now due to the other healer dying, and I can confirm that a single Heal Alac Scourge can solo heal the squad. Honestly, Sand Savant needs to be the baseline shade (without the increased cd) with the way they are going, and we should get a new trait there. Probably go the same route they did with Druid, and make the third trait that replaces Sand Savant focused on healing. So for our Grandmaster traits, we would have one that adds more damage, one that adds more boons, and then one that gives a decent healing boost that would be good for things like PvP.

[Nimon.7840]

On 7/27/2023 at 8:10 PM, Shaogin.2679 said:

As someone that has been playing Heal Scourge for a long time, I just want to point out some incorrect things being stated here. 

First off, boon application radius is 300, not 180. The only one that still has the 180 radius is Sand Cascade, which is not needed to maintain Alacrity, especially after the last patch. Both Sandstorm Shroud and Manifest Sand Shade apply their barriers (and by extension might, condi cleanse, and alacrity) in a 300 radius. 

Second, you can definitely provide ranged support, and very easily I might add. I know this as a fact because again, I have already done it. Most recently on Sabetha just last night I was the flak kiter on my Heal Alac Scourge.

Heal Scourge can also easily function as a solo healer. Again, just last night on a couple of runs my other healer died early on and so I had to solo Heal the fight. In fact, on Xera, the other healer was also the tank, so someone quickly dropped a cake for me to eat for the toughness mid fight and I solo heal tanked the rest of the fight.

Although our rez ability has been nerfed, it is by no means gone or unusable. If it stayed in its previous state, Heal Scourge would have been stupid OP now. I do wish it would go back to pulling down allies continuously, but Scourges still have the best rez abilities in the game.

Finally, on fights that need stability, Trail of Anguish has been plenty sufficient for this task. If need be you can take it with Serpent Siphon as well for the Aegis. Sure, having even more stability and Aegis is always nice for those groups that are struggling with mechanics and need a carry, but it would also start to overload the spec with more than it needs to function. One player does not need to be able to do absolutely everything for the team.

Oh, also, on the boon support part, just want to say I am currently able to supply about 84% of the entire squad's alacrity. So not only is my group at 100% alacrity uptime, but I am providing quite a bit of alacrity to the other group as well.

So please, just stop it already with these false statements about how bad Heal Alac Scourge is right now. There are of course some improvements that can be made as with all classes, but it is actually in a great spot right now.

It's definetly not bad.

But imo it's not quite on par with other healers as well.

Especially the stability application is a "problem". Can you give stability with trail of anguish? Yes you can. 

But compare that skill just in it's application to something like stand your ground.

Same stability duration, but trail needs you to run a marathon in some groups while stand your ground is just 600 range instant cast.

And there are other skills that are just way easier to apply stability. For example rev stab road.

Problem with heal-alac scourge is, that you can't keep up certain boons. You got very good might, regen and way too much alac on 100% boonduration (which let's you provide some of those boons to the other sub party in 10 people content) and you even have a very long duration aegis.

Theoretically you can even provide 100% fury, but since a lot of classes bring group fury anyways, I don't know if you want to waste one utility slot by taking dessicate.

But swiftness and protection are a "problem" and the already mentioned stability.

What's the problem with swiftness and prot? Well you don't get a 100% uptime on those.

Swiftness can only be applied by using trail of anguish, which then has the same problem I described on the stability section. And the only prot source is F5 which is missing one second of uptime 3*3+6=15 on a 16s cooldown.

Yes theoretically you could give prot with spectral ring, but that's even more impractical, because you rely on your allies to walk through it.

That being said there's boon Herold that kinda carries most of those problems.

 

 

 

[Methuselah.4376]

36 minutes ago, Nimon.7840 said:

 

What's the problem with swiftness and prot? Well you don't get a 100% uptime on those.

 

Erm...I have absolutely no issues maintaining 100% uptime on Protection. I believe the detonation counts as a pulse as well, so it applies a total of 9 seconds of Protection (with 100% BD). Am out atm so can't test this, but ye I definitely have no issues with Protection. 

[Shuzuru.3651]

5 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

And the only prot source is F5 which is missing one second of uptime 3*3+6=15 on a 16s cooldown.

Wrong, F5 is 20sec, down to 17 with the soul reaper trait, then down to 13,6 with the alac (that you are providing, so no blaming on the other support for that)

So 15/13,6 is 110% uptime, not super large, but doable. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Shuzuru.3651

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

trail of anguish is the most overpowered stability skill in the game, with pretty much permanent stacks with full boon duration. yes, its a bit annoying to use since you have to jiggle on your allies like you're having a seizure, but it does work.

 

they really need to move the f4 heal to f2 or something,though, so we can save f4 for cc and rezz.

Edited August 2, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Shuzuru.3651]

12 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

trail of anguish is the most overpowered stability skill in the game, with pretty much permanent stacks with full boon duration. yes, its a bit annoying to use since you have to jiggle on your allies like you're having a seizure, but it does work

How? 

It's 1stack 12sec duration every 16s with alac

For comparaison, stand your ground is 5 stack 12sec every 19s with alac, and you don't have to reach your ally. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

How? 

It's 1stack 12sec duration every 16s with alac

For comparaison, stand your ground is 5 stack 12sec every 19s with alac, and you don't have to reach your ally. 

when you move around you're creating a mobile ward (similar to guardian staff #5 or even necro's own spectral ring). this creates a "pass through" effect when allies cross the line, which is just a single stack if they're following right behind you, but if they're moving all around and crossing the line multiple times it can stack . the wiki claims its limited to two stacks, but i've definitely seen three quite often, and this is with near-permanent uptime.

 

all group content is done in melee anyway (with a few exceptions) and with lots of micro-movement to avoid attacks.

Edited August 2, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Yeah, HAB Scourge doesn't have a problem maintaining 100% Protection uptime.  Swiftness and stability are the only commonly desired boons missing from its kit, and in a pinch, you can do both with Trail of Anguish.  Quick Herald is the perfect companion.

[Nimon.7840]

14 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Wrong, F5 is 20sec, down to 17 with the soul reaper trait, then down to 13,6 with the alac (that you are providing, so no blaming on the other support for that)

So 15/13,6 is 110% uptime, not super large, but doable. 

Oh you're right. Guess there was an Error from my side.

That still leaves the swiftness "problem" which isn't very impactful on some fights, but on others it's very impactful (dhuum for example).

And the way the stability is applied.

That being said. It's a solid build.

I'd love if we got some more useful mainhand weapon.

And maybe make the swiftness from warhorn 5 shareable.

 

[Shuzuru.3651]

12 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

when you move around you're creating a mobile ward (similar to guardian staff #5 or even necro's own spectral ring). this creates a "pass through" effect when allies cross the line, which is just a single stack if they're following right behind you, but if they're moving all around and crossing the line multiple times it can stack . the wiki claims its limited to two stacks, but i've definitely seen three quite often, and this is with near-permanent uptime.

 

all group content is done in melee anyway (with a few exceptions) and with lots of micro-movement to avoid attacks.

Does it only work on others ? 

Because I know about this type of effect, and I already tested it with things like mesmer focus, but I couldn't have it to work at all with trail of anguish. 

Even the wiki says that 2 stack is a rare occurrence.

And while I do agree the game is melee focused, when it comes to stability, you may want to have it when people are actually spread. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

9 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Does it only work on others ? 

Because I know about this type of effect, and I already tested it with things like mesmer focus, but I couldn't have it to work at all with trail of anguish. 

Even the wiki says that 2 stack is a rare occurrence.

And while I do agree the game is melee focused, when it comes to stability, you may want to have it when people are actually spread. 

i can make it happen pretty easily by just running around a bit in mistlock with the trail on and crossing paths with players. it won't ever affect you more than once since you're always stuck in the effect, and a player has to leave and re-enter to be counted again.

 

my recommendation is to pay attention to how many stacks of stability allies have in actual fights.

Edited August 3, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134