Why there is such disbalance between melee and range?

[SappFire.5793]

Like, why ever pick melee builds over ranged when last have more damage, boon coverage and utilities?

[Woof.8246]

A melee character doesn't have ranged options , by sacrificing a bit of damage ? And we could use a change of pace , lets say for example  the 2x strikes could  become melee oriented and the one fractal to deviate from that . We had that in the past , where bosses had huge toughens and needed condition specs for faster clears .

About boon coverage it's a different beast . While some "traditional op classes" rather than getting nerfed all the time  (Mesmer) ,  will be forced to invest  concentration and new "off-the-meta" to become more attractive , by investing none. This is another way to change the meta , rather than the traditional nerfing of top-dogs-spell functionality

Edited July 26, 2023 by Woof.8246

[Urud.4925]

Most of the ranged weapons have been buffed in the last years, and a lot of bosses have a very high mobility these days. In the past there were only few examples, like Amala, but now most of the bosses not only keep jumping around, but the fight itself is full of very short phases where you can dps. The rest of the time is spent to avoid telegraph or killing ads that spawn far from the boss, like in HT; with a melee you waste more time to go back in position (not to mention that you can't do some mechanic, due to hazards, like the green puddles). Last two fractals are also easier with a ranged class: Sunqua because the boss keeps moving between the center and the edge of the arena, and Surf because you avoid the conditions from far. Melee is better on the golem, but for most of the recent contents, ranged is definitely superior (sadly, because it's dumb).

Edited July 26, 2023 by Urud.4925

[Zebulous.2934]

Huh, there was a post a few weeks ago complaining that ranged characters had to clump with the melee inorder to gain nessasary boons.  That individual, claimed that party buffs didn't have enough range to encompass both groups of dps. They seemed to think that if melee was present, support had to favor the melee position, so ranged would have lower dps from standing too far away from support. "What is the point of ranged weapons, if you have to stand in melee anyway?"

They were more eloquent, and what they said  sounded logical.  

I mostly play solo, so I am simply confused.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Zebulous.2934

[rotten.9753]

Because ANet balances based on golem benchmarks, where ranged builds are exactly the same as melee builds.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

Huh, there was a post a few weeks ago complaining that ranged characters had to clump with the melee inorder to gain nessasary boons.  That individual, claimed that party buffs didn't have enough range to encompass both groups of dps. They seemed to think that if melee was present, support had to favor the melee position, so ranged would have lower dps from standing too far away from support. "What is the point of ranged weapons, if you have to stand in melee anyway?"

They were more eloquent, and what they said  sounded logical.  

I mostly play solo, so I am simply confused.

Stacking is a thing to maximize boon application, healing, and to navigte some boss mechanics. If the melee has to be in melee then the 180 range support skills need to be stacked on them too. In PvE this is an issue on the support side. There needs to be more 600-700 range AoE support abilities. That way the Support can use a midrange weapon while supporting both the melee and ranged players. There are more nuances to that of course, such as where the enemy attacks are landing, and whether the boss moves to the furthest away player, Mai Trin for instance that will continue to favor stacking however.

[rotten.9753]

7 hours ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

Huh, there was a post a few weeks ago complaining that ranged characters had to clump with the melee inorder to gain nessasary boons.  That individual, claimed that party buffs didn't have enough range to encompass both groups of dps. They seemed to think that if melee was present, support had to favor the melee position, so ranged would have lower dps from standing too far away from support. "What is the point of ranged weapons, if you have to stand in melee anyway?"

They were more eloquent, and what they said  sounded logical.  

I mostly play solo, so I am simply confused.

That person definitely didn't play any recent content like EoD strikes or the new fractal, where ranged builds are often favored over melee ones.

[Mauti.3520]

It's a mystery to me quite frankly.
And it clearly shows in the best (as flawed as it is) source that we have in Wingman. People - or shall I say the sample size - appear to massively prefer it over Melee.
 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Mauti.3520

[Alcatraznc.3869]

The amount of content that requires range is so insignificant in total I dont even know why this is still a thing. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

7 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

Because ANet balances based on golem benchmarks, where ranged builds are exactly the same as melee builds.

Don't forget speedrunners. They also like to balance around the top 1% of speedrunners. 

[Batalix.2873]

On 7/26/2023 at 11:11 AM, Mauti.3520 said:

It's a mystery to me quite frankly.
And it clearly shows in the best (as flawed as it is) source that we have in Wingman. People - or shall I say the sample size - appear to massively prefer it over Melee.
 

I've been pointing this out for over a year. In most content, players prefer ranged builds. In instanced group content, it is because they can continue to do damage outside of melee range when they have to split for mechs. And in OW content, it is because it gives them a huge DPS head start on most mobs, plus, as observed before, the ability to do boss mechs while mobile.

Melee builds are a binary state. Either you are in melee range and can do damage, or you are not and cannot do any damage. Kitten Virtuoso should not be able to compete with the damage that the likes of Berserker, Weaver, and Reaper have to negotiate while chasing targets and avoiding short-range mechanics.

It's terrible design. Mech, Scourge, Specter, are all problematic. But Virtuoso has far and away been the worst thing to happen to DPS tuning and balancing. FFXIV has a lot of problems, but one thing it does realize is that ranged builds need some combination of either a damage tax, or a mobility tax, as fair tradeoff for being able to maintain a baseline DPS from nearly any location.

Reduce Virt's baseline power/condi damage )and maybe give it something more interesting to do than summon blades, what a sad excuse for a psionic job fantasy). Reduce Scourge's fire/torment damage (along with fixing the kitten shade duration). Remove Mech's access to weapons so it doesn't have two sources of simultaneous ranged autoattack. Take back the stupid Druid and Tempest DPS changes. And just cancel Specter because it's copypasted Scourge and totally devoid of creativity.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Carnifex.3275]

21 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

And just cancel Specter because it's copypasted Scourge and totally devoid of creativity.

This is funny because Specter is probably the only class that is somewhat healthy as a ranged option. Because Specter is a single target spec, no cleave no piercing, and ofcz torment is already quite a limiting factor too. Specter has like 1 or 2 aoe skills which both require being at melee range. So you want aoe? U gotta go melee on specter.

Meanwhile scourge/cvirt are beasts and have tons of aoes/piercing. So no, maybe actually implement specters downsides to other classes that not only have range but also pierce/cleave potential. Sorry but just goes to show how clueless people are and balance team shouldnt really listen to playerbase. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Carnifex.3275

[Batalix.2873]

53 minutes ago, Carnifex.3275 said:

This is funny because Specter is probably the only class that is somewhat healthy as a ranged option. Because Specter is a single target spec, no cleave no piercing, and ofcz torment is already quite a limiting factor too. Specter has like 1 or 2 aoe skills which both require being at melee range. So you want aoe? U gotta go melee on specter.

Meanwhile scourge/cvirt are beasts and have tons of aoes/piercing. So no, maybe actually implement specters downsides to other classes that not only have range but also pierce/cleave potential. Sorry but just goes to show how clueless people are and balance team shouldnt really listen to playerbase. 

ST is still very strong in instanced encounters, plus Specter just as a lot of bloated utility outside of DPS that I think makes it problematic.

I agree that it's not the worst example of ranged especs. I just thinkit should be deleted because it's garbage from a design perspective. Just a lot of Necro/Scourge features lazily slapped onto Thief. We didn't need another scepter/barrier/condi mage after Scourge generally, it was hardly a unique fantasy to begin with. We definitely didn't need it after they walked back ST limitations to make it even more Scourgey. And we didn't even need a shadow mage to begin with when Deadeye was a better spin on stealth/shadow magic. Thief really could have used something more innovative, something with grappling or gambling instead of just...pretty rote scepter skills, sandswell-wells, and a pretty incoherent shroud concept.

So yeah delete Specter.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

3 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

I've been pointing this out for over a year. In most content, players prefer ranged builds because. In instanced group content, it is because they can continue to do damage outside of melee range when they have to split for mechs. And in OW content, it is because it gives them a huge DPS head start on most mobs, plus, as observed before, the ability to do boss mechs while mobile.

Melee builds are a binary state. Either you are in melee range and can do damage, or you are not and cannot do any damage. Kitten Virtuoso should not be able to compete with the damage that the likes of Berserker, Weaver, and Reaper have to negotiate while chasing targets and avoiding short-range mechanics.

It's terrible design. Mech, Scourge, Specter, are all problematic. But Virtuoso has far and away been the worst thing to happen to DPS tuning and balancing. FFXIV has a lot of problems, but one thing it does realize is that ranged builds need some combination of either a damage tax, or a mobility tax, as fair tradeoff for being able to maintain a baseline DPS from nearly any location.

Reduce Virt's baseline power/condi damage )and maybe give it something more interesting to do than summon blades, what a sad excuse for a psionic job fantasy). Reduce Scourge's fire/torment damage (along with fixing the kitten shade duration). Remove Mech's access to weapons so it doesn't have two sources of simultaneous ranged autoattack. Take back the stupid Druid and Tempest DPS changes. And just cancel Specter because it's copypasted Scourge and totally devoid of creativity.

 

Yes let's just nuke everything that has ranged so that every melee player can feel better. 

[Gibson.4036]

I love when balance allows builds that can melee on one weapon set and range on the other. Get in close with the melee set for damage and boon share, pull back out to range if you need some room to kite or see what's happening.

I loved Mirage for this back before the dev we don't talk about decided they hated Axe. Still like my Condi Renegade with mace up close, shortbow for some distance. Though it feels like most of the time I can just camp shortbow, unfortunately.

This game's built around mobility in combat, so it's kind of a shame to stack all the time. But it's also a shame when ranged gets so strong you might as well just hang back and pewpew.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[rotten.9753]

9 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I love when balance allows builds that can melee on one weapon set and range on the other. Get in close with the melee set for damage and boon share, pull back out to range if need some room to kite or see what's happening.

Elementalist and Engineer doesn't have that option. Weaver is forced into melee range while Scourge and Virt do very similar damage while being fully ranged.

[The Boz.2038]

14 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I love when balance allows builds that can melee on one weapon set and range on the other. Get in close with the melee set for damage and boon share, pull back out to range if need some room to kite or see what's happening.

I loved Mirage for this back before the dev we don't talk about decided they hated Axe. Still like my Condi Renegade with mace up close, shortbow for some distance. Though it feels like most of the time I can just camp shortbow, unfortunately.

This game's built around mobility in combat, so it's kind of a shame to stack all the time. But it's also a shame when ranged gets so strong you might as well just hang back and pewpew.

The only builds that have that right now are GS/staff Reaper and /LB soulbeast. Maybe Deadeye, if you really wanna stretch it.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 7/26/2023 at 2:55 AM, Zebulous.2934 said:

Huh, there was a post a few weeks ago complaining that ranged characters had to clump with the melee inorder to gain nessasary boons.  That individual, claimed that party buffs didn't have enough range to encompass both groups of dps. They seemed to think that if melee was present, support had to favor the melee position, so ranged would have lower dps from standing too far away from support. "What is the point of ranged weapons, if you have to stand in melee anyway?"

They were more eloquent, and what they said  sounded logical.  

I mostly play solo, so I am simply confused.

The central issue in encounter design in GW2 is the decision to eschew traditional tanking and threat mechanics.  Players are given no reliable means of controlling enemy positioning other than by positioning all possible targets in the same location.  Naturally, this is very limiting in terms of encounter design and the workarounds are not ideal (e.g. stationary bosses or contrived tanking mechanics like we see in some raid encounters). 

Subsequently, players complained of boring "stack-in-a-pile" encounters.  The only solution beyond giving up on the "non-trinity" experiment (thereby having to redesign literally every bit of PvE combat in the entire game!) is to design encounters with mechanics that force players to move around.  But they still have their hands tied by the lack of threat mechanics, so the way in which this is handled is something often referred to as "splits".  A common example of this is when the boss remains stationary while each player has a circle placed under their feet that will cause damage for every circle they're standing in after a period of time.  This forces players to move away from each other and by extension the boss, but they then return to the pile when the boss begins to move again.

As a side-effect to these types of mechanics, ranged classes are able to continue dealing damage during these phases while melee are not.  This used to be compensated for by a so-called "ranged tax", which essentially means that melee DPS deal more damage in exchange for having limited range capability.  However, since EoD the developers have been on a quest to erase the advantage of melee while simultaneously ramping up split mechanics to 11, creating the imbalance the OP is complaining of.

[Gibson.4036]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The only builds that have that right now are GS/staff Reaper and /LB soulbeast. Maybe Deadeye, if you really wanna stretch it.

Yeah. Kinda sad, because it really feels good when it works.

[Gibson.4036]

12 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

Elementalist and Engineer doesn't have that option. Weaver is forced into melee range while Scourge and Virt do very similar damage while being fully ranged.

The possibility is there with Engie and nades, thought it doesn't feel great. But yes, it's been one of my consistent disappointments with Ele, which was the prof I was most disposed to like at launch. Would have been cool if they could have made some elements ranged some melee on the same weapon.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

The possibility is there with Engie and nades, thought it doesn't feel great. But yes, it's been one of my consistent disappointments with Ele, which was the prof I was most disposed to like at launch. Would have been cool if they could have made some elements ranged some melee on the same weapon.

I think I'd rather not have a split identity within the same weapon kit.  Where they went wrong is in the design of conjured weapons, the overall lack of weapon options for elementalist, and the weakness of staff as well as the non-trinity idea unfortunately being a failed experiment with regard to group PvE encounter design.  If elementalists could use conjures to cover the weaknesses in their chosen weapon kit, if they had more than just two ranged weapon options, if staff weren't such a mess of a weapon, and if ranged and melee were distinctive roles in encounter design I don't think the core design of elementalist without a weapon swap would be an issue.

[Gibson.4036]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:04 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I think I'd rather not have a split identity within the same weapon kit.  Where they went wrong is in the design of conjured weapons, the overall lack of weapon options for elementalist, and the weakness of staff as well as the non-trinity idea unfortunately being a failed experiment with regard to group PvE encounter design.  If elementalists could use conjures to cover the weaknesses in their chosen weapon kit, if they had more than just two ranged weapon options, if staff weren't such a mess of a weapon, and if ranged and melee were distinctive roles in encounter design I don't think the core design of elementalist without a weapon swap would be an issue.

Ah, yes. It’s been so long since I’ve used a conjured weapon outside of earth shield in PvP, I’d forgotten about them.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

I don't understand. What ranged? Everyone just stacks in a big ball in melee for most content. (Except wvw zergs. "What melee?")

[Batalix.2873]

4 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I don't understand. What ranged? Everyone just stacks in a big ball in melee for most content. (Except wvw zergs. "What melee?")

Ranged classes are still vastly preferred because they can do non-zero damage when players have to split for mechs. Virt has been tyrannical in raids since release, to a lesser extent Mech and Specter, and godking Scourge.

It's a false argument that I see a lot of apologists put forth, but bottom line is that melee players are in a strict binary state. If they are not in melee range or able to chase down a target quickly enough, they do *zero* damage (or no new damage on top of whatever condi ticks are still up). For very mobile fights, melee rotations are easily screwed with. Ranged classes do not have to deal with either of these issues and can maintain sizeable DPS: even when they have to move for mechs, even when the target moves.

Ranged classes need either damage or mobility taxes. Classes like Virt (especially Virt, which is so unidimensionally designed as a pure DPS class) cannot be doing Berserker/Reaper level DPS with the added option of just leaving melee range altogether. But ANet really has not done anything to address this issue because the combat/class design of this game has gone down the kittenhole. They don't care if half the classes are obviated as long as players get their easy pewpews and shallow dopamine hits. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

26 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Ranged classes are still vastly preferred because they can do non-zero damage when players have to split for mechs. Virt has been tyrannical in raids since release, to a lesser extent Mech and Specter, and godking Scourge.

It's a false argument that I see a lot of apologists put forth, but bottom line is that melee players are in a strict binary state. If they are not in melee range or able to chase down a target quickly enough, they do *zero* damage (or no new damage on top of whatever condi ticks are still up). For very mobile fights, melee rotations are easily screwed with. Ranged classes do not have to deal with either of these issues and can maintain sizeable DPS: even when they have to move for mechs, even when the target moves.

Ranged classes need either damage or mobility taxes. Classes like Virt (especially Virt, which is so unidimensionally designed as a pure DPS class) cannot be doing Berserker/Reaper level DPS with the added option of just leaving melee range altogether. But ANet really has not done anything to address this issue because the combat/class design of this game has gone down the kittenhole. They don't care if half the classes are obviated as long as players get their easy pewpews and shallow dopamine hits. 

I know, I was mostly just ranting that I usually have to stand in a melee boon ball with my rifle. And I'm rather salty about that. I should have used an emote with my comment. 😉

Edit: To be fair, melee weapons do get used in wvw too, but it's the same problem. The zergs stay at range, and your melee weapons are literally useless until a push.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261